How does Swift stack?

raasdal

How does swift and major / minor exp stack?

Are they all additive and will give 1 + 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 1.7 or 70 % increase, or are they multiplicative as in 1 x 1.3 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 = 1.9 or 90% increase?

Also, any ideas on how to further increase non-sprinting speed, to hit the 100% ceiling without sprinting?

nryerson1025

I have been wondering this as well. If you find out, please let us know

Thogard

It’s all additive

raasdal

Thogard wrote: »

It’s all additive

Damn.

Do you know of any other sources of non-sprint speed increase in the game? I can't find any myself. They changed VO, which would have been a way to more speed.

nesmewno

mb fiord's legacy?

Qbiken

Think the hard-cap is at 60% extra movement speed if I remember correctly.

raasdal

nesmewno wrote: »

mb fiord's legacy?

Fiords increases the Sprint bonus. I am looking for base "walking" speed increase.

Qbiken wrote: »

Think the hard-cap is at 60% extra movement speed if I remember correctly.

The cap is at 100%. For reference, assuming Additive is correct, the most used speeds are;

Major Exp. + Sprint = 70%
Major Exp. + Sprint in 5 Medium = 85%
Major Exp + Minor Exp + Sprint in 5 Medium = 95%
Major Exp + Minor Exp + Sprint in 5 Medium + Orc = 105% - capped down to 100%

Thogard wrote: »

It’s all additive

@Thogard - is the 40% Sprint bonus also additive with other sources? Or to ask differently - are my above calculations correct?

Minno

raasdal wrote: »

nesmewno wrote: »

mb fiord's legacy?

Fiords increases the Sprint bonus. I am looking for base "walking" speed increase.

Qbiken wrote: »

Think the hard-cap is at 60% extra movement speed if I remember correctly.

The cap is at 100%. For reference, assuming Additive is correct, the most used speeds are;

Major Exp. + Sprint = 70%
Major Exp. + Sprint in 5 Medium = 85%
Major Exp + Minor Exp + Sprint in 5 Medium = 95%
Major Exp + Minor Exp + Sprint in 5 Medium + Orc = 105% - capped down to 100%

Thogard wrote: »

It’s all additive

@Thogard - is the 40% Sprint bonus also additive with other sources? Or to ask differently - are my above calculations correct?

Sprint is additive but with a cap. Snares are subtractive but the highest overwrites the lowest. There is a thread somewhere that explains in detail (I'll need to find it).

BohnT

The veil of blade synergy grants a 70% speed buff.
It's not practical but that's a way how to reach the cap without sprinting

DDuke

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/6c2q7p/movement_speed/

raasdal

DDuke wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/6c2q7p/movement_speed/

Hmmm... Contradicting info in that thread. Some guys there says Expedition is Multiplicative. But UESP guy has alot of data which says otherwise. Also just checked the UESP Build Editor, and they have all these as additive.

BUT, according to the doc linked by the UESP guy (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k4u4Oaux4y6L-0SmlhRf97LOCIpCTJ51F3iEfB9ZO4k/edit#gid=0), the STEED Mundus actually applies the 5% on your base speed, and NOT on your sprinting bonus. So that opens up for other similar mistakes, where maybe some speed buffs are applied to base speed, and not to sprint bonus. Will need to investigate at least this Steed things again now

Thogard

It’s all additive. There’s a hard cap at 100% extra speed. Somethings are only additive while you’re sprinting... but it’s all additive.

DDuke

raasdal wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/6c2q7p/movement_speed/

Hmmm... Contradicting info in that thread. Some guys there says Expedition is Multiplicative. But UESP guy has alot of data which says otherwise. Also just checked the UESP Build Editor, and they have all these as additive.

BUT, according to the doc linked by the UESP guy (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1k4u4Oaux4y6L-0SmlhRf97LOCIpCTJ51F3iEfB9ZO4k/edit#gid=0), the STEED Mundus actually applies the 5% on your base speed, and NOT on your sprinting bonus. So that opens up for other similar mistakes, where maybe some speed buffs are applied to base speed, and not to sprint bonus. Will need to investigate at least this Steed things again now

UESP Build Editor has a lot of flaws... it still counts CPs & other dmg modifiers separately for example when it should be bundling them up. I always have to calculate my tooltips manually when using that website.

glavius

Some things are multiplicative. I tested 2 swift jewelry on my sorc, and realized I didn't run faster with it if I was sprinting.
Major+minir expedition+sprint (non orc) and 2 medium already takes you over the +100% cap.

DDuke

glavius wrote: »

Some things are multiplicative. I tested 2 swift jewelry on my sorc, and realized I didn't run faster with it if I was sprinting.
Major+minir expedition+sprint (non orc) and 2 medium already takes you over the +100% cap.

Huh.. it shouldn't.

Major+Minor=37%(1-0,7*0,9)+Sprint(40%+6%[2 Medium])=85%

Cap is at 100%, so you should be able to get full value from one Swift jewelry atleast.

Edit: unless your character is orc... in which case passive=10% sprint speed->95% without jewelry.

Thogard

glavius wrote: »

Some things are multiplicative. I tested 2 swift jewelry on my sorc, and realized I didn't run faster with it if I was sprinting.
Major+minir expedition+sprint (non orc) and 2 medium already takes you over the +100% cap.

This is not accurate. You did not test properly or you did not understand what you were testing.

Medium armor and orc passives only apply when sprinting.

To say that you noticed no benefit while sprinting is not possible, you would not be near the cap otherwise. (30% maj expedition 20% swift 10% minor expedition)

But yes, you would be a bit over the cap while sprinting. But not significantly.

Gprime31

Swiftly.

DDuke

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

Thogard

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

Minno

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

and counteracting the effects of snares applied to your toon.

glavius

Thogard wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Some things are multiplicative. I tested 2 swift jewelry on my sorc, and realized I didn't run faster with it if I was sprinting.
Major+minir expedition+sprint (non orc) and 2 medium already takes you over the +100% cap.

This is not accurate. You did not test properly or you did not understand what you were testing.

Medium armor and orc passives only apply when sprinting.

To say that you noticed no benefit while sprinting is not possible, you would not be near the cap otherwise. (30% maj expedition 20% swift 10% minor expedition)

But yes, you would be a bit over the cap while sprinting. But not significantly.

You misunderstand. Sprint with 2 swift jewelry was exactly the same speed as sprint with no swift jewelry. (using ravspeed addon) Regular speed was alot faster.
Now I did not do any further testing since I did not need to.
But I'm pretty sure it's calculated by having either sprint (*1,46 with 2 medium) or minor+major multiplicative (*1,4) with the rest. In my case either of those will give 204% of base speed which is then capped at 200%.

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

Well yes, all I'm saying is that the trait is losing "value" when you only get more regular speed & no extra sprint speed.

That is to say, in 7 medium & major expedition after one swift jewelry you're only getting "half" of the good stuff the trait is supposed to give.

glavius wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Some things are multiplicative. I tested 2 swift jewelry on my sorc, and realized I didn't run faster with it if I was sprinting.
Major+minir expedition+sprint (non orc) and 2 medium already takes you over the +100% cap.

This is not accurate. You did not test properly or you did not understand what you were testing.

Medium armor and orc passives only apply when sprinting.

To say that you noticed no benefit while sprinting is not possible, you would not be near the cap otherwise. (30% maj expedition 20% swift 10% minor expedition)

But yes, you would be a bit over the cap while sprinting. But not significantly.

You misunderstand. Sprint with 2 swift jewelry was exactly the same speed as sprint with no swift jewelry. (using ravspeed addon) Regular speed was alot faster.
Now I did not do any further testing since I did not need to.
But I'm pretty sure it's calculated by having either sprint (*1,46 with 2 medium) or minor+major multiplicative (*1,4) with the rest. In my case either of those will give 204% of base speed which is then capped at 200%.

So you're saying something is buffing up the already buffed movement speed? Seems I'll have to DL that addon & test some things out before I waste gems on trait change :P

glavius

DDuke wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

Well yes, all I'm saying is that the trait is losing "value" when you only get more regular speed & no extra sprint speed.

That is to say, in 7 medium & major expedition after one swift jewelry you're only getting "half" of the good stuff the trait is supposed to give.

glavius wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Some things are multiplicative. I tested 2 swift jewelry on my sorc, and realized I didn't run faster with it if I was sprinting.
Major+minir expedition+sprint (non orc) and 2 medium already takes you over the +100% cap.

This is not accurate. You did not test properly or you did not understand what you were testing.

Medium armor and orc passives only apply when sprinting.

To say that you noticed no benefit while sprinting is not possible, you would not be near the cap otherwise. (30% maj expedition 20% swift 10% minor expedition)

But yes, you would be a bit over the cap while sprinting. But not significantly.

You misunderstand. Sprint with 2 swift jewelry was exactly the same speed as sprint with no swift jewelry. (using ravspeed addon) Regular speed was alot faster.
Now I did not do any further testing since I did not need to.
But I'm pretty sure it's calculated by having either sprint (*1,46 with 2 medium) or minor+major multiplicative (*1,4) with the rest. In my case either of those will give 204% of base speed which is then capped at 200%.

So you're saying something is buffing up the already buffed movement speed? Seems I'll have to DL that addon & test some things out before I waste gems on trait change :P

1*1,4*1,046=2,044. Basically base speed, first modified by major+minir, then by sprint=cap speed.

glavius

If what I assume is correct, 7 medium sprint with major expedition should hit the cap too. 1*1,3*1,55=2,015

DDuke

glavius wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

Well yes, all I'm saying is that the trait is losing "value" when you only get more regular speed & no extra sprint speed.

That is to say, in 7 medium & major expedition after one swift jewelry you're only getting "half" of the good stuff the trait is supposed to give.

glavius wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

Some things are multiplicative. I tested 2 swift jewelry on my sorc, and realized I didn't run faster with it if I was sprinting.
Major+minir expedition+sprint (non orc) and 2 medium already takes you over the +100% cap.

This is not accurate. You did not test properly or you did not understand what you were testing.

Medium armor and orc passives only apply when sprinting.

To say that you noticed no benefit while sprinting is not possible, you would not be near the cap otherwise. (30% maj expedition 20% swift 10% minor expedition)

But yes, you would be a bit over the cap while sprinting. But not significantly.

You misunderstand. Sprint with 2 swift jewelry was exactly the same speed as sprint with no swift jewelry. (using ravspeed addon) Regular speed was alot faster.
Now I did not do any further testing since I did not need to.
But I'm pretty sure it's calculated by having either sprint (*1,46 with 2 medium) or minor+major multiplicative (*1,4) with the rest. In my case either of those will give 204% of base speed which is then capped at 200%.

So you're saying something is buffing up the already buffed movement speed? Seems I'll have to DL that addon & test some things out before I waste gems on trait change :P

1*1,4*1,046=2,044. Basically base speed, first modified by major+minir, then by sprint=cap speed.

Going by this: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/6c2q7p/movement_speed/

...sprint & sprint related passives are additive though. Also Major/Minor Expedition are multiplicative with each other meaning you get diminishing returns (i.e. Major+Minor Expedition=1-0,7*0,9->37%, not 40%).


...but I'll test them out myself, that reddit post is relatively dated & things might've changed.

Edit: hold on... misread. Major Expedition+Minor Expedition buff each other instead of the other way around according to the reddit thread (1,1*1,3) meaning you'd get 43% from those two rather than 40% (or 37% with diminishing returns). Interesting.

glavius

I know the orc sprint passive is multiplicative (and quite bad). 10% of 40% sprint= 4% extra speed total when sprinting as an orc.

Gprime31

So what is the sprint cap now??? Or did they remove it

raasdal

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

This exactly. I just equipped my StamSorc with 3 x Swift. My "walking" speed is now 70% (30+10+10+10+10) - that is the same as a standard player using Major Expedition AND Sprinting (30+40). I am litterally ALL over the place, without even sprinting. It takes some getting used to - i am falling off all the ledges everywhere, because i am simply too fast for myself, but i am getting the hang of it slowly. But boy it is fun.

AND this leads me to the next point;

I honestly dont think Major / Minor and Swift are additive. I think they are multiplicative.

When i have my current setup, with Major + Minor + 3 x Swift, i should have either;

Additive = 70%
Multiplicative = 90%

And the thing is. My sprinting is WEAK. As in VERY WEAK. When i Sprint, the difference is almost unnoticeable. As in, my speed will not actually change very much. There is just no way, that my sprinting is adding another 30% to my speed. That would be noticeable. So just based off that, i have to check out more on this.

I will try to make a video and upload it, so you can all see and judge for yourself. Will also try to add Steed Mundus. If they are all multiplicative, this should put you at 99,84% increase - which is CAP. At that point it should be very clear, if Sprinting adds any speed. Because at this point it will be;

Additive = 75%
Multiplicative = 100% (or 99,84%)

If there is a good speedcalculator addon i could use to demonstrate / test as well, please let me know? Then i will try to put together a testing video tonight, to once and for all figure this out.

glavius

raasdal wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

This exactly. I just equipped my StamSorc with 3 x Swift. My "walking" speed is now 70% (30+10+10+10+10) - that is the same as a standard player using Major Expedition AND Sprinting (30+40). I am litterally ALL over the place, without even sprinting. It takes some getting used to - i am falling off all the ledges everywhere, because i am simply too fast for myself, but i am getting the hang of it slowly. But boy it is fun.

AND this leads me to the next point;

I honestly dont think Major / Minor and Swift are additive. I think they are multiplicative.

When i have my current setup, with Major + Minor + 3 x Swift, i should have either;

Additive = 70%
Multiplicative = 90%

And the thing is. My sprinting is WEAK. As in VERY WEAK. When i Sprint, the difference is almost unnoticeable. As in, my speed will not actually change very much. There is just no way, that my sprinting is adding another 30% to my speed. That would be noticeable. So just based off that, i have to check out more on this.

I will try to make a video and upload it, so you can all see and judge for yourself. Will also try to add Steed Mundus. If they are all multiplicative, this should put you at 99,84% increase - which is CAP. At that point it should be very clear, if Sprinting adds any speed. Because at this point it will be;

Additive = 75%
Multiplicative = 100% (or 99,84%)

If there is a good speedcalculator addon i could use to demonstrate / test as well, please let me know? Then i will try to put together a testing video tonight, to once and for all figure this out.

ravspeed

DDuke

I tested with ravspeed yesterday - apparently I'm already hitting the speed cap while sprinting with 7 medium & Major Expedition. Without any Swift jewelry or Minor Expedition


ZOS should probably consider raising the speed cap by a little.

raasdal

glavius wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

By my calculations one Swift jewelry should bring a 7 medium armor character (without Minor Expedition) to speed cap.


30%(Major Expedition)+10% Swift+61% Sprint(40%+21% from Athletics passive)=101%, 103% if you have Windrunning passive.

If swift calculates multiplicatively with Major/Minor expedition, then you'd be getting precisely 100% speed with the above buffs.


So as a general rule of thumb, I'd say anything more than one Swift jewelry is probably excessive for medium armor characters.

The value of swift comes in the regular run speed, not the sprint run speed.

This exactly. I just equipped my StamSorc with 3 x Swift. My "walking" speed is now 70% (30+10+10+10+10) - that is the same as a standard player using Major Expedition AND Sprinting (30+40). I am litterally ALL over the place, without even sprinting. It takes some getting used to - i am falling off all the ledges everywhere, because i am simply too fast for myself, but i am getting the hang of it slowly. But boy it is fun.

AND this leads me to the next point;

I honestly dont think Major / Minor and Swift are additive. I think they are multiplicative.

When i have my current setup, with Major + Minor + 3 x Swift, i should have either;

Additive = 70%
Multiplicative = 90%

And the thing is. My sprinting is WEAK. As in VERY WEAK. When i Sprint, the difference is almost unnoticeable. As in, my speed will not actually change very much. There is just no way, that my sprinting is adding another 30% to my speed. That would be noticeable. So just based off that, i have to check out more on this.

I will try to make a video and upload it, so you can all see and judge for yourself. Will also try to add Steed Mundus. If they are all multiplicative, this should put you at 99,84% increase - which is CAP. At that point it should be very clear, if Sprinting adds any speed. Because at this point it will be;

Additive = 75%
Multiplicative = 100% (or 99,84%)

If there is a good speedcalculator addon i could use to demonstrate / test as well, please let me know? Then i will try to put together a testing video tonight, to once and for all figure this out.

ravspeed

Thanks, will check it out

DDuke wrote: »

I tested with ravspeed yesterday - apparently I'm already hitting the speed cap while sprinting with 7 medium & Major Expedition. Without any Swift jewelry or Minor Expedition


ZOS should probably consider raising the speed cap by a little.

Hmmm...

40% + 30% + 21% should only put you over the cap, if they are multiplicative. Interesting. Can't wait to test this and get first hand results.