Bleeds

ak_pvp

Holy hell they are OP, sloads is bad, but bleeds... bleeds are insane. This is a nerf thread.

Lets be real, sloads is only getting its level of hate because it hurts the Magsorcs/StamNBs, if it hit just the other classes, it'd just be an L2P issue, which I am expecting to see now

Bleeds deal so much damage through all resistances, which for classes like a DK or warden (less so) is their only real class defense, all for an incredibly cheap and mindless way. Rending slashes with the master set deals around 2k DPS, that is more than all of vigor, or 2 cauterizes and that is BS.

It can only be mitigated by % based things, such as maim or CP, meaning for noCP it is absolutely broken, then remember healing in noCP is atrocious, especially if defiled, 2k is often what my 4k cost heal does.

Inb4 just change your build, I have. I am running lingering pots, cauterize, 900 health regen, and using DK's other heals, using maim, and this is still the result.

Some screenshots:

@ZOS_Wrobel Please for the love of talos.

React

Personally I don't think they're overperforming. The masters dual wield is strong sure, but you're sacrificing set options, 2pc agility, etc to run setups that more or less pigeonhole you into running 2h on the other bar.

Let's see what the forums have to say!

wheem_ESO

Bleeds are strong without Master Dual Wield weapons, and maybe overpowered, but I'm not entirely sure about that. With Master Dual Wield weapons, though, bleeds are pretty ridiculous. I have recent screenshots of 1 single tick of Heavy Weapons (a proc!) doing 2,334 in a Chaosball game (ie, no sigil), and 2 ticks of Rending Slashes doing 4,853 (during a Death Match, but his two Flying Blades only hit for 2,985 and 3,246, so doesn't seem like a sigil to me).

I think one reason that Sload's is getting so much more attention right now is that it's a lot more common. There are a number of people running both bleed builds and Sload's, and it gets taken to a whole new level of ridiculousness. I recently mentioned an encounter where a Stam Sorc hit me with a light attack + Rending Slashes and sprinted away from me with super speed. Given the way he immediately ran, without trying to fight me at all, I'm assuming that he just wanted to escape and was using the Rending Slashes for a snare more than anything else. But, since he proc'd both Twin Blade and Blunt and Sload's, I took a pretty huge amount of damage - far more than should ever be possible with only 1 global cooldown.

CyrusArya

Master axes are arguably over performing, bleeds in general are not. They require you to run dual wield which has pros and cons. They are strong, sure. And they need to be otherwise no one would play dual wield, especially now that two handers count as two set pieces. The entire weapon line would be obsolete in PvP if bleeds weren’t strong, as that dot pressure is the only reason to play dual wield. Build diversity is good for the game.

ak_pvp

CyrusArya wrote: »

Master axes are arguably over performing, bleeds in general are not. They require you to run dual wield which has pros and cons. They are strong, sure. And they need to be otherwise no one would play dual wield, especially now that two handers count as two set pieces. The entire weapon line would be obsolete in PvP if bleeds weren’t strong, as that dot pressure is the only reason to play dual wield. Build diversity is good for the game.

I mean, kinda. Pre masters buff, barely anyone ran DW. (recently, not spin2win days) Even though the other bleeds were about the same, however the nerfs to defense and sustain doesn't help, so in noCP even non master bleeds are a *little* OP.

Master DW nerf is absolutely in order. Its a near guaranteed death for DKs, heavy stamsorc/plar and non heavy mag wardens.

Aztlan

I couldn't disagree more. Arena weapons should be strong. CyrusArya's analysis is spot on.

Biro123

Aztlan wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Arena weapons should be strong. CyrusArya's analysis is spot on.

I couldn't disagree more. Arena weapons should only be strong in PVE.

Ragnaroek93

Funny. I made a thread about bleeds one year ago and got told to l2p. It just took people over one year to realise how strong bleeds are.

raasdal

Liam12548 wrote: »

Just to be clear; only the axe passive bleeds ignore resistances. Rending slashes and cleave's bleeds are both classified as physical DOT's and not as "true" bleed damage, thus they do NOT ignore resistances. One handed and two handed AXE BLEEDS (twin blade and blunt, heavy weapons) are "true bleeds" that ignore resistances.

Personally I don't think they're overperforming. The masters dual wield is strong sure, but you're sacrificing set options, 2pc agility, etc to run setups that more or less pigeonhole you into running 2h on the other bar.

Let's see what the forums have to say!

@Liam12548 - Sorry, but what you are writing is so wrong it hurts my eyes.

Both rending and cleave ignore resistances completely. Go test if you need.

Zeromaz

DKs have major mending which counter balances bleeds. You also have shields that counter balances bleeds. You can also mitigate with DK standard. You also have access to additional shields with magicka and vigor and rally with stamina. Seriously?

dochouseg

Same boat I've been knowing bleeds are great people are just cookie cutter builds

ak_pvp

Zeromaz wrote: »

DKs have major mending which counter balances bleeds. You also have shields that counter balances bleeds. You can also mitigate with DK standard. You also have access to additional shields with magicka and vigor and rally with stamina. Seriously?

3 bleeds come to 4k+, (masters, twin blunt, heavy weapons) with sloads it's around 5k, from one person. That is without anything else like potl, spammable, etc.

Stacking all the perm hots I can on my MDK comes to around 2k hps. Standard of might is a weak 250 cost stationary ult, mobility is important.

Mended vigor in CP is only around 2.5k. In noCP its less. That is 1 bleed, and a small dot.

Then you forget about the ever-present defile meta.

Shields kind of do counter it, though can still melt in noCP, also, why the hell should everyone run shields. I know I am still stubbornly holding on to my dead (solo) heavy MagDK, but not every mag class should be a stupid bubble spammer.

React

raasdal wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Just to be clear; only the axe passive bleeds ignore resistances. Rending slashes and cleave's bleeds are both classified as physical DOT's and not as "true" bleed damage, thus they do NOT ignore resistances. One handed and two handed AXE BLEEDS (twin blade and blunt, heavy weapons) are "true bleeds" that ignore resistances.

Personally I don't think they're overperforming. The masters dual wield is strong sure, but you're sacrificing set options, 2pc agility, etc to run setups that more or less pigeonhole you into running 2h on the other bar.

Let's see what the forums have to say!

@Liam12548 - Sorry, but what you are writing is so wrong it hurts my eyes.

Both rending and cleave ignore resistances completely. Go test if you need.

Penetration cp must have been broken in DRB, or rending itself was indeed being mitigated by resistances. I tested this two months ago on live when testing whether blooddrinker affected masters, cleave , etc using the standard method of removing/adding pen cp and applying rending to a dummy. The rending dot increased with pen cp, where the axe bleed(s) did not.

However I've just retested this on summerset live with the same method I used previously, and the results were different. Rending and cleave are both ignoring resistances, I stand corrected.

Ariades_swe

Considering most of the soloplayers are either a stamblade or magsorc and that bleeds don't hard counter cloak or goes through shield like sloads we won't see a nerf.

ezeepeezee

The funny thing is, the most annoying thing I've been fighting in Cyro has been DW bleed NBs using sload

Zeromaz

I don’t get why its such a big deal now. These bleeds have literally had no changes in an eon

CyrusArya

ezeepeezee wrote: »

The funny thing is, the most annoying thing I've been fighting in Cyro has been DW bleed NBs using sload

Bleedblade is very strong, maybe even questionably so, but don’t take that as an evaluation of all bleeds. I’m gonna loosely quote a very interesting point @casparian elaborated on elsewhere. The weapon lines are all based around granting a very strong but exclusive offensive perk. Two Hander gives huge burst damage, sword and board gives defile, dual wield gives bleeds. So in choosing a weapon line you choose how to cater your playstyle. The thing is, a bleedblade gets all three in a way that inferiorly designed classes do not. Bleedblade is OP cus nightblade is OP, not cus of bleeds alone in a vacuum.

This is, again, why nerfing bleeds is not a good idea from the perspective of build variety and robust character building. While a class like nightblade can pull off any weapon line incredibly well, due to their phenomenal kit, other classes are pidgeon holed into one playstyle where they have a unique niche. For example, wardens burst synergizes amazingly with two hander, DKs natural tankiness with sword and board, and stamplar/stam sorc sustained damage with dot pressure. If you nerf dual wield and remove the ONLY thing that gives it an edge, classes like warden, dk, and especially nightblade will be completely fine. But stamplar and to a lesser degree stam sorc? They will be in practice uncompetitive. Because you have killed the niche where they shine and created a meta where the weapon trees that other classes run significantly better maintain their perks. Which would be a shame cus these two classes are already a bit mediocre in comparison to NB and Warden.

As I have said before and will say everytime this topic is brought up, I don’t care much for bleeds themselves. I do care that my main class (Stamplar) relies on them to be viable and competitive at a top level since that’s where their niche and synergy is. If they gutted bleeds, then I’d be forced to run 2h/sword and board or 2h/bow at which point I might as well play a stam warden/dk or stamblade. If bleeds are nerfed, Stamplar (and sorc to a lesser degree) need to be buffed accordingly.

Vapirko

I hadsomeone hit me with over 20k in bleeds from a single rending slashes using master DW. That said I really don’t want to see master DW nerfed to uselessness, and I don’t have them. It’s cool that not everyone can get it and it should be strong. Bleeds generally aren’t that bad without the master DW. ZOS would have to be very smart with that nerf and that’s not something I trust them to do, since they’re not interested in small, incremental adjustments.

Zeromaz

Vapirko wrote: »

I hadsomeone hit me with over 20k in bleeds from a single rending slashes using master DW. That said I really don’t want to see master DW nerfed to uselessness, and I don’t have them. It’s cool that not everyone can get it and it should be strong. Bleeds generally aren’t that bad without the master DW. ZOS would have to be very smart with that nerf and that’s not something I trust them to do, since they’re not interested in small, incremental adjustments.

Lets not exaggerate. That isn’t even possible. Was this in BGs with the sigil?

ak_pvp

Zeromaz wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I hadsomeone hit me with over 20k in bleeds from a single rending slashes using master DW. That said I really don’t want to see master DW nerfed to uselessness, and I don’t have them. It’s cool that not everyone can get it and it should be strong. Bleeds generally aren’t that bad without the master DW. ZOS would have to be very smart with that nerf and that’s not something I trust them to do, since they’re not interested in small, incremental adjustments.

Lets not exaggerate. That isn’t even possible. Was this in BGs with the sigil?

Its possible, very easily possible even without sigil. Just look at my examples. 7384 in 4 ticks is 16614 in the full 9. That however is maimed. So 19106 in 9s. Super cheap, and completely uncounterable by most builds.

Slap an incap or a few ticks on that because NBs are meta and you easily have 20l

Thogard

Zeromaz wrote: »

I don’t get why its such a big deal now. These bleeds have literally had no changes in an eon

Sloads is pulling NBs out of cloak, so they can’t cloak out of the bleeds either.

80% of generic, non-class based whining comes from Stam NBs and mag sorcs. The rest of us have been dealing with bleeds from master DW being OP for a while.

ak_pvp

Thogard wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

I don’t get why its such a big deal now. These bleeds have literally had no changes in an eon

Sloads is pulling NBs out of cloak, so they can’t cloak out of the bleeds either.

80% of generic, non-class based whining comes from Stam NBs and mag sorcs. The rest of us have been dealing with bleeds from master DW being OP for a while.

Not an NB or a sorc main.

Bleeds were bad last patch too, and I complained about masters when it was originally buffed. But it has hit peak awful with everyone running it, power creep, defense nerfs, sloads in combo, etc.

Zeromaz

ak_pvp wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I hadsomeone hit me with over 20k in bleeds from a single rending slashes using master DW. That said I really don’t want to see master DW nerfed to uselessness, and I don’t have them. It’s cool that not everyone can get it and it should be strong. Bleeds generally aren’t that bad without the master DW. ZOS would have to be very smart with that nerf and that’s not something I trust them to do, since they’re not interested in small, incremental adjustments.

Lets not exaggerate. That isn’t even possible. Was this in BGs with the sigil?

Its possible, very easily possible even without sigil. Just look at my examples. 7384 in 4 ticks is 16614 in the full 9. That however is maimed. So 19106 in 9s. Super cheap, and completely uncounterable by most builds.

Slap an incap or a few ticks on that because NBs are meta and you easily have 20l

You do know DW passives increase dmg on low health targets. And how the *** does 1800 a tick = 20k bleed outside of your hypothetical senario? Get outa here. I’m tired of all the *** shotgunned out of people’s mouths here.

Minalan

I call shenanigans. Fake death recaps!

Why? Not enough sloads on the list.

ak_pvp

Zeromaz wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I hadsomeone hit me with over 20k in bleeds from a single rending slashes using master DW. That said I really don’t want to see master DW nerfed to uselessness, and I don’t have them. It’s cool that not everyone can get it and it should be strong. Bleeds generally aren’t that bad without the master DW. ZOS would have to be very smart with that nerf and that’s not something I trust them to do, since they’re not interested in small, incremental adjustments.

Lets not exaggerate. That isn’t even possible. Was this in BGs with the sigil?

Its possible, very easily possible even without sigil. Just look at my examples. 7384 in 4 ticks is 16614 in the full 9. That however is maimed. So 19106 in 9s. Super cheap, and completely uncounterable by most builds.

Slap an incap or a few ticks on that because NBs are meta and you easily have 20l

You do know DW passives increase dmg on low health targets. And how the *** does 1800 a tick = 20k bleed outside of your hypothetical senario? Get outa here. I’m tired of all the *** shotgunned out of people’s mouths here.

I don't think you understand friendo.

DW passives get a 20% buff below 25% health. In my specific case that is 6k. You are assuming that I was below 6k health for all those ticks? I was below 6k for a split second infact, since I got imploded.
You do realize bleedblades are very common, and so are incaps. Its basically BG meta. "B-but its not possible, it must be duh sigil."

Whatever factors it might be from it outperforms every other dot which can also have factors apply to it.

You are quite obviously a newer/weaker player, so i'll forgive your lack of knowledge shown across multiple silly posts.

HankTwo

ak_pvp wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Master axes are arguably over performing, bleeds in general are not. They require you to run dual wield which has pros and cons. They are strong, sure. And they need to be otherwise no one would play dual wield, especially now that two handers count as two set pieces. The entire weapon line would be obsolete in PvP if bleeds weren’t strong, as that dot pressure is the only reason to play dual wield. Build diversity is good for the game.

I mean, kinda. Pre masters buff, barely anyone ran DW. (recently, not spin2win days) Even though the other bleeds were about the same, however the nerfs to defense and sustain doesn't help, so in noCP even non master bleeds are a *little* OP.

Master DW nerf is absolutely in order. Its a near guaranteed death for DKs, heavy stamsorc/plar and non heavy mag wardens.

I agree, master dw bleed in no CP is a nightmare. I play heavy armor stam DK and there is 0 chance for me to win against a good master bleed + sload build. I just melt against them. On the contrary, I can at the very least put up a good 1v1 fight against almost all other builds.

Even normal bleeds feel very strong, but it could be argued, that they are a counter in a kind of rock-paper-scissors balance (strong against high resistance targets, weak against shield users).

Zeromaz

ak_pvp wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I hadsomeone hit me with over 20k in bleeds from a single rending slashes using master DW. That said I really don’t want to see master DW nerfed to uselessness, and I don’t have them. It’s cool that not everyone can get it and it should be strong. Bleeds generally aren’t that bad without the master DW. ZOS would have to be very smart with that nerf and that’s not something I trust them to do, since they’re not interested in small, incremental adjustments.

Lets not exaggerate. That isn’t even possible. Was this in BGs with the sigil?

Its possible, very easily possible even without sigil. Just look at my examples. 7384 in 4 ticks is 16614 in the full 9. That however is maimed. So 19106 in 9s. Super cheap, and completely uncounterable by most builds.

Slap an incap or a few ticks on that because NBs are meta and you easily have 20l

You do know DW passives increase dmg on low health targets. And how the *** does 1800 a tick = 20k bleed outside of your hypothetical senario? Get outa here. I’m tired of all the *** shotgunned out of people’s mouths here.

I don't think you understand friendo.

DW passives get a 20% buff below 25% health. In my specific case that is 6k. You are assuming that I was below 6k health for all those ticks? I was below 6k for a split second infact, since I got imploded.
You do realize bleedblades are very common, and so are incaps. Its basically BG meta. "B-but its not possible, it must be duh sigil."

Whatever factors it might be from it outperforms every other dot which can also have the same factors apply to it.

You are quite obviously a newer/weaker player, so i'll forgive your lack of knowledge shown across multiple silly posts.

You’re an idiot

Exodium

I have master dw and I honestly don't see why you're rating bleeds that highly. Sure, it's got its use against heavy armour, but against medium armour it's pretty average (maybe a bit above but definitely not overpowered).

And again light armour with damage shields? Absolutely terrible. And against templar with cleanse? Also terrible.

In fact my master bleed tic was doing as much as a sloads tic (I compared the two), yet sloads is unmitigitable and affects all armour types equally. Where's bleeds has advantages against some, disadvantages against others.

Definitely not overpowered. Leave it as is ZoS.

IZZEFlameLash

Any unimitigatable damage should be doing a lot less damage to function as a tool to pressure the opponent. Not as big main damage dealer that acts as another Major Defile + Minor Defile. It's ridiculous how strong the bleed can be. Or maybe just attune it to be about minor defile strong on a second thought. Makes it still useful.

Zeromaz wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

I hadsomeone hit me with over 20k in bleeds from a single rending slashes using master DW. That said I really don’t want to see master DW nerfed to uselessness, and I don’t have them. It’s cool that not everyone can get it and it should be strong. Bleeds generally aren’t that bad without the master DW. ZOS would have to be very smart with that nerf and that’s not something I trust them to do, since they’re not interested in small, incremental adjustments.

Lets not exaggerate. That isn’t even possible. Was this in BGs with the sigil?

Its possible, very easily possible even without sigil. Just look at my examples. 7384 in 4 ticks is 16614 in the full 9. That however is maimed. So 19106 in 9s. Super cheap, and completely uncounterable by most builds.

Slap an incap or a few ticks on that because NBs are meta and you easily have 20l

You do know DW passives increase dmg on low health targets. And how the *** does 1800 a tick = 20k bleed outside of your hypothetical senario? Get outa here. I’m tired of all the *** shotgunned out of people’s mouths here.

I don't think you understand friendo.

DW passives get a 20% buff below 25% health. In my specific case that is 6k. You are assuming that I was below 6k health for all those ticks? I was below 6k for a split second infact, since I got imploded.
You do realize bleedblades are very common, and so are incaps. Its basically BG meta. "B-but its not possible, it must be duh sigil."

Whatever factors it might be from it outperforms every other dot which can also have the same factors apply to it.

You are quite obviously a newer/weaker player, so i'll forgive your lack of knowledge shown across multiple silly posts.

You’re an idiot

Nice name calling bro.

Gprime31

ak_pvp wrote: »

Holy hell they are OP, sloads is bad, but bleeds... bleeds are insane. This is a nerf thread.

Lets be real, sloads is only getting its level of hate because it hurts the Magsorcs/StamNBs, if it hit just the other classes, it'd just be an L2P issue, which I am expecting to see now

Bleeds deal so much damage through all resistances, which for classes like a DK or warden (less so) is their only real class defense, all for an incredibly cheap and mindless way. Rending slashes with the master set deals around 2k DPS, that is more than all of vigor, or 2 cauterizes and that is BS.

It can only be mitigated by % based things, such as maim or CP, meaning for noCP it is absolutely broken, then remember healing in noCP is atrocious, especially if defiled, 2k is often what my 4k cost heal does.

Inb4 just change your build, I have. I am running lingering pots, cauterize, 900 health regen, and using DK's other heals, using maim, and this is still the result.

Some screenshots:

@ZOS_Wrobel Please for the love of talos.

Master DW...soooo good!

Gprime31

HankTwo wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Master axes are arguably over performing, bleeds in general are not. They require you to run dual wield which has pros and cons. They are strong, sure. And they need to be otherwise no one would play dual wield, especially now that two handers count as two set pieces. The entire weapon line would be obsolete in PvP if bleeds weren’t strong, as that dot pressure is the only reason to play dual wield. Build diversity is good for the game.

I mean, kinda. Pre masters buff, barely anyone ran DW. (recently, not spin2win days) Even though the other bleeds were about the same, however the nerfs to defense and sustain doesn't help, so in noCP even non master bleeds are a *little* OP.

Master DW nerf is absolutely in order. Its a near guaranteed death for DKs, heavy stamsorc/plar and non heavy mag wardens.

I agree, master dw bleed in no CP is a nightmare. I play heavy armor stam DK and there is 0 chance for me to win against a good master bleed + sload build. I just melt against them. On the contrary, I can at the very least put up a good 1v1 fight against almost all other builds.

Even normal bleeds feel very strong, but it could be argued, that they are a counter in a kind of rock-paper-scissors balance (strong against high resistance targets, weak against shield users).

thought bleeds and dots ignore resistances!?!