CP PVP vs Non CP - What takes More Skill? [discussion]

Betsararie

Zelos wrote: »

There is no skill in this game it doesnt have the platform for skill, its about proc sets and shuffle dodging, its about CP and Befoul with Defile, its about poisons and cheap no counter play bursts. There is no skill required to play

no. none at all. there is no skill

Edziu

normally I would to tell noncp is more skilled bu how proc sets are perferming I wont as its really rare and almost never you can see someone without proc sets

for me better skill you need at cp with perfect planned combo to skill someone to not let your opponend to survive this while on noncp its enough for proc on sets and here we go, mindlessy spam any damaging skill with cc to your opponend and enjoy your ez kill

Lexxypwns

Lutallo wrote: »

If there were no proc sets in the game, then NoCP would be a resounding winner.
As it stands, it’s hard to answer. CP gives you a massive crutch and makes a lot of builds viable. NoCP you actually have to have a good burst combo and play for regen, but the proc set meta let’s no skill players win for little effort.

You’d also have to remove poisons and adjust defile

Derra

80% of the people writing nonCP saying CP are a crutch system are ironically doing nonCP pvp wearing armor that deals 80% of their dmg.

I guess it always depends on perspective if somethings a crutch ot not.

Viper, sload, caluurion, way of the fire, unfathomable darkness, overwhelming surge, shieldbreaker, zaan, skoria, veli, selene, trolking...
In CP those sets are relatively balanced (except for sload) in terms of a setup not utilizing any of them will still be able to compete with one stacking those on equal "skilllevel".
In nonCP in the same situation the person without proccs gets trashed.

Imo it´s worse having your armor do the killing than having people that are tanky bc of cp - but this is entirely subjective.

It´s out of the question that the game is getting balanced for CP for 3 years now - so whether we agree with the current balance or not - it´s more balanced in CP. The few balance changes we get are made with that scenario in mind.

Maulkin

Derra wrote: »

80% of the people writing nonCP saying CP are a crutch system are ironically doing nonCP pvp wearing armor that deals 80% of their dmg.

I guess it always depends on perspective if somethings a crutch ot not.

Viper, sload, caluurion, way of the fire, unfathomable darkness, overwhelming surge, shieldbreaker, zaan, skoria, veli, selene, trolking...
In CP those sets are relatively balanced (except for sload) in terms of a setup not utilizing any of them will still be able to compete with one stacking those on equal "skilllevel".
In nonCP in the same situation the person without proccs gets trashed.

Imo it´s worse having your armor do the killing than having people that are tanky bc of cp - but this is entirely subjective.

It´s out of the question that the game is getting balanced for CP for 3 years now - so whether we agree with the current balance or not - it´s more balanced in CP. The few balance changes we get are made with that scenario in mind.

From what I see though, the majority of non-CP players are highly critical of proc sets. They use them because they are over-performing in no-CP content and that's created a situation where you have to wear them or your build is noticeably sub-par. By standard game theory, they are compelled to wear them even if they hate them.

Most of the quotes I see are in this vein:

Lutallo wrote: »

If there were no proc sets in the game, then NoCP would be a resounding winner.

I do agree that ZOS has been balancing with CP in mind more. And that progressively ends up screwing their no-CP content.

Ultimately, my personal belief is that Cyrodiil is better with CPs. The proc-set meta and high damage is definitely waaay too much to deal with in an open world where you can often heavily out-numbered and end up playing horse simulator.

BattleGrounds is the opposite in my opinion, the fast spawn spawn times suit the fast combat. The best version I've had was pre-Summerset, although that had pretty strong proc-set mentality as well. The damage was extremely high but survivable. Post-Summerset it's much worse. The change on light attack scaling and 2h weapons pushed the damage up again and Sloads has been a bit more cancer sprinkled on top. But I'd still take that over CP BGs where it was just 4 tanks holding ground, spamming defensive ulties and never dying.

I do wish they gave their no-CP content a bit more consideration because for Arena type matches, it's just more fun.

Juhasow

Both are unballanced just in favour of different builds. There is lack of competitive PvP currently in both CP and non CP. Too many things currently can carry which includes not only sets but also lot of easy to use and strong abilities.

Maulkin

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Lutallo wrote: »

If there were no proc sets in the game, then NoCP would be a resounding winner.
As it stands, it’s hard to answer. CP gives you a massive crutch and makes a lot of builds viable. NoCP you actually have to have a good burst combo and play for regen, but the proc set meta let’s no skill players win for little effort.

You’d also have to remove poisons and adjust defile

I think Defile needs an adjustment in general. It's even stronger in CP campaigns due to Befoul passive. I think it should be cut down to 10% minor and 20% major and they can tweak the Befoul passive how they see fit to balance Healing with Defiling in CP content. Both CP and no-CP would benefit from that.

As for the poisons, it kinda depends. Cost increase poisons are perhaps too strong but damage poisons are actually often weaker than Enchants.

Ultimately, I see neither as significant or impactful as proc-sets and oblivion damage. These are the biggest gripes by far and BGs would be vastly better without them, even with no adjustment to defiles or poisons.

SpiderCultist

as a non-CP player since launch you got the point: proc sets all over the place, poisons, defile, etc.

thinking about moving to CP, to be honest

Rianai

Derra wrote: »

In nonCP in the same situation the person without proccs gets trashed.

And in CP PvP the player without CP gets trashed.

Yes, noCP PvP is disgusting right now. But CP PvP isn't a favourable option for everyone.

Killset

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I mostly play no-CP BG and Cyrodiil. I don’t think either takes more skill I just think that no-CP requires a different approach and that often the players who struggle with one form or the other of PVP just aren’t adjusting their mentality the way they should.

The outlier builds are definitely less balanced in no-CP than in CP. This means, imo, that if you have a lower skill level and seek to outperform your own limitations that min-maxing a build for no-CP will likely yield superior results as long as you are actually min-maxing for the no-CP environment. There’s simply nothing that can be done about proc based builds that have good sustain and defense.

Unlike in a CP environment a single damage proc set can actually carry most of your offensive burden and stacking 2 or more of Masters DW, Sload, Surge, Skoria, Zaan, Groth, Sheer Venom, etc makes your offense potent enough that you can just burn people too fast for them to have a competitive chance.

A final thought, I get many many more successful 1vX fights in no-CP than in CP.

Well said.

DeadlyRecluse

In contexts/fights where the more egregious "issues" with noCP are absent, I think it's more balanced. In other words, noCP feels more balanced to me when you get a fight with:
1. no poisons
2. no siege
3. no proc sets (or, at a minimum, none of the handful of OP proc sets)

Those 3 things are significantly more powerful in noCP, and as long as they're part of the equation it's hard to take noCP super seriously. In the odd fight where they aren't present, it's great and feels like you really have to balance sustain, damage, pressure, etc. carefully rather than just push offense.

I can still build for full damage in CP and have no real problems with sustain. Not a fan of that.

Rohaus

NO CP = very quick death if you aren't cautious. Even if you run a full tank build, you are still going to die rather quickly with a couple high DPS skilled players on you.

CP = much easier to manage resources and as such live longer when compared to NO CP. I have made monster tanks in CP that are unkillable unless I have 20+ on me... I don't care how tanky you build for NO CP... you are still gonna die rather quickly without any support even as a full on tank.

CatchMeTrolling

I think it’s ironic that so many people reason for no cp being less skilled is the fact people die quicker but the same people hate the tank meta, magplar healbots, defensive proc sets and reference 1.6 as the golden age of eso. The same age where people got one shotted regularly.

Eso pvp community honestly don’t know what pvp they want. If the fights are dragged out, it’s a problem, if they’re quick, it’s still a problem.

Sure proc sets are an issue in no cp but let’s not act like they aren’t prevalent in cp pvp as well. Allowing you to run tanky setups and still be able to dish out good damage or ignore sustain on certain specs. Can’t ignore the defile meta in cp either, which is pretty cancerous.

You really can’t even compare a setting like bgs to open world in terms of the fights you get. But I can say the average player has a better chance at killing me in no cp than in open world, not because it’s easier but because we’re on equal footing, it’s less forgiving and you pay for your mistakes.

Mohegan_Sneak

I am a newish player, been playing about 3 months. I home Sotha and just stepped foot in Vivec this week to give it a shot (finally hit 380+ CP) and I noticed that I hardly had to manage my resources. I felt as if I could put tape over my UI of my stamina and mana bar and fight all night with no worries. Not to mention I finally got to see what it was like to have penetration.

It’s still a toss up for me. But I was a little worried when I entered vivec that I would just get completely stomped by everyone, I feel as if it’s either harder to play in Sotha or the competition was higher. I was having a easy time in Vivec for the most part.

But I feel as if my opinion is somewhat biased being I haven’t play near as much Vivec as I have Sotha.

Dredlord

Both can utilize equal amounts of skill to succeed, its just the builds are different.

IZZEFlameLash

I mean, no-CP siege hurling on top of procs is very skillful, yes? Left click meta anyone?

CatchMeTrolling

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

I mean, no-CP siege hurling on top of procs is very skillful, yes? Left click meta anyone?

Same thing happens in cp pvp, people just sit on siege and it’s been like that before no cp was even a thing.

IZZEFlameLash

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

I mean, no-CP siege hurling on top of procs is very skillful, yes? Left click meta anyone?

Same thing happens in cp pvp, people just sit on siege and it’s been like that before no cp was even a thing.

I mean, in CP environment, at least you don't see die tk scatters only and ridiculous proc damage to not do anything except for obvious few called Sload's and Zaan. I don't feel CP is imbalanced other than those. Did not include defile because it is a problem with no-CP also.

Aliyavana

id argue no cp takes more skill due to resource management and cp not carrying but no cp also has the issue of proc sets carrying. id also argue cp pvp is where the more skilled players are at because it is easier to 1vx people in cp pvp, and cp is where most of the population is at so there is a higher pool of those skilled players

Dredlord

Cp takes more skill to kill.

NoCp takes more skill to stay alive.

That's it in a nutshell

Aliyavana

Dredlord wrote: »

Cp takes more skill to kill.

NoCp takes more skill to stay alive.

That's it in a nutshell

id also argue cp takes more patience as well as the time to kill in cp pvp against tanky players bores me

Toc de Malsvi

Universe wrote: »

Non-CP pvp is so unbalanced that if I had a DELETE button for it, I would press it right away
In my opinion Non-CP PVP shouldn't even exist and the battlegrounds should return to CP enabled.

As for skill, there can't be skill focused combat if there are huge combat balance issues.
Until ZOS will release a major combat balance update, I don't consider anything as "skilled" or "not skilled".

No true scotsman.

BNOC

If you're using cheese and the sets that cripple this game, then there's no skill involved period imo.

Because of the pure lack of defence and power and the sheer emphasis on actually being aggressive rather than a full time turtle, I would say no-CP is more skill based - You actually have to fight people, rather than have a block and who's the best tank contest. Sustain isn't infinite and I find that you have to use your environment to your advantage significantly more.

Proc sets don't seem to be as apparent on Xbox no-CP as people make out exist on PC, especially in BG's - The people that run sets like that on console are usually in a premade of "good" players that are leaning on them in CP.

SilverWF

ESO has no skilled PVP and even close to this
Because their netcode is TOTAL crap, add here constantly lagging servers with huge battles and ability to run pretty cheesy builds.
Skill? Seriously?

Non-CP is far more balanced than CP. But there is no 'skill' in both of them.

evoniee

the only way to counter ridiculous proc set and / or "strong" combos is playing on CP though

Minno

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I mostly play no-CP BG and Cyrodiil. I don’t think either takes more skill I just think that no-CP requires a different approach and that often the players who struggle with one form or the other of PVP just aren’t adjusting their mentality the way they should.

The outlier builds are definitely less balanced in no-CP than in CP. This means, imo, that if you have a lower skill level and seek to outperform your own limitations that min-maxing a build for no-CP will likely yield superior results as long as you are actually min-maxing for the no-CP environment. There’s simply nothing that can be done about proc based builds that have good sustain and defense.

Unlike in a CP environment a single damage proc set can actually carry most of your offensive burden and stacking 2 or more of Masters DW, Sload, Surge, Skoria, Zaan, Groth, Sheer Venom, etc makes your offense potent enough that you can just burn people too fast for them to have a competitive chance.

A final thought, I get many many more successful 1vX fights in no-CP than in CP.

I agree with this. Building a nCP build, takes more thought and testing. But overall once you nail that build, nCP becomes just as fun as CP.

Just a shame certain classes had their power stripped from their kits while thrown into the CP system and overly OP proc sets; otherwise we could of had separate pvp/pve modes via the use of nCP as the standard PVP experience that ALOT of players have been asking for.

Arthg

Sustain management adds more depth to noCP.
But that added depth is lost because proc sets and poisons are way too strong.
Their damage and effect should be drastically toned down in noCP for skills to actually significantly matter again.

Jeremy

Betsararie wrote: »

What requires more skill? Try to be objective.

To me it's not clear. Personally I've usually thought non-CP because in non-cp you don't have your CP to help support you-- Just your build and skill. And creating good builds IS a skill. So I'm leaning more toward non-cp. Also non-cp is the more fun game mode.

The problem with CP PVP is it leans too much toward the defensive side of things which might make lesser players seem more tanky than they are.

What do you think?

Really the only difference I can tell is it's harder to take out NPCs at the nodes. Otherwise it's same numbers game CP mode is.

Non CP is nice for players who PvE also and don't want to respec their champion points every time they enter Cyrodil. I think that's mostly what it's for.

CompM4s

CP brings a bigger diversity on builds. I like the customization that the cp tree adds. Also adds progression, non-cp just stays stagnent. Most non cp wear same cookie cutter builds.

HEBREWHAMMERRR

NonCP hands down. You have to consciously manage your resources and not just button mash. You also have an even playing field across the board with no CP imbalances. It’s the most competitive atmosphere and it’s not even worth a discussion tbh. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional of the CP crutch.