I’m having trouble understanding balance...

Lysette

DanteYoda wrote: »

Balance = everyone the same..

Not sure what zos issue is its not rocket science.. All classes should do same damage same heals and same defence..



Not sure why others have so much difficulty understanding this concept.

And what would be the roles of tanks, healer and DD be for then, if all can do all in an equal manner?-

ookami007

OP, they criticize your post and your tactic, but you ARE correct. First... historically, that is exactly how many tactics were accomplished. Lay down a killzone and pick off targets from range. Mostly... because it works and minimizes danger to the attackers. That's why high ground is a sought in almost all situations.

Second, you point IS extremely valid. IF ESO PvP was even REMOTELY balanced (which it is not and never will be), a glass cannon SHOULD be able to do enough damage to wipe someone out quickly, with the downside being that they couldn't take much damage themselves and would go down quickly if attacked.

BUT... this game IS NOT and NEVER WILL BE balanced. There are broken skills, broken armor sets and broken monster sets. And worse, there are broken builds that capitalize on all of those to become neigh impossible to kill 1v1 for someone using a non-broken build.

People will TRY to say "Learn to Play", etc... but they are usually the ones using the broken builds to begin with. And I don't blame them. If something works, why not do it. I blame ESO and their complete lack of any motivation to make REAL changes.

Each item and skill should have a PvE and a PvP tab... then they'd have one effect against PvE monsters and a completely different effect against players in PvP. Then, they could balance the two arenas separately instead of trying the IMPOSSIBLE and balancing them together.

STEVIL

bg22 wrote: »

And I think Zos is too, but maybe someone can help educate me.

So, historically, I always imagined character balance on any game like a scale (hence the word balance) with damage on one side, Defense on the other. And I’ve most recently built a glass canon. However some ppl have builds that I simply cannot kill, that have substantial damage to go along with their incredibly high armor and survivability.

I’m running about 4200 weapon damage and 12k~ pen, yet I was hitting these dude from max range snipe, WHILE they were 1vXing and my hits were laughable (6k at best), and they could heal through my damage, AND the others they were facing (3-4 others) without an actual healer present.

I acknowledge that I’m no grandmaster at ESO, but a serious question emerges... 2, actually: How, and why?

Enlighten me.

Cannot because you dont provide enough info. Characters can have different levels in charactet, cp, gear etc. So without k,owledge that equates tbese to parabus ceteris or close, no way to illuminate.

Aluneth

Bruisers will almost always beat a glass cannon in 1v1. Glass cannons shine when you're in a group that can support you. It's like this in most MMOs, including LoL, WoW, etc. This game shouldn't be balanced around glass cannons anyway.

Kel

Balance is a myth in any MMO. Look at WoW...it's been one of the most successful longest running MMO's out there, and they've never achieved true balance. And they won't. Been around 12+ years, you think ESO will nail balance in 4?
Can true balance be reached without total homogenisation, meaning everyone goes in with the same skills, same stats, and same gear?
Careful what you ask for, and all that...

usmguy1234

bg22 wrote: »

And I think Zos is too, but maybe someone can help educate me.

So, historically, I always imagined character balance on any game like a scale (hence the word balance) with damage on one side, Defense on the other. And I’ve most recently built a glass canon. However some ppl have builds that I simply cannot kill, that have substantial damage to go along with their incredibly high armor and survivability.

I’m running about 4200 weapon damage and 12k~ pen, yet I was hitting these dude from max range snipe, WHILE they were 1vXing and my hits were laughable (6k at best), and they could heal through my damage, AND the others they were facing (3-4 others) without an actual healer present.

I acknowledge that I’m no grandmaster at ESO, but a serious question emerges... 2, actually: How, and why?

Enlighten me.

Let me guess... this person was a stamden? I'd be really surprised if they weren't.

bg22

ookami007 wrote: »

OP, they criticize your post and your tactic, but you ARE correct. First... historically, that is exactly how many tactics were accomplished. Lay down a killzone and pick off targets from range. Mostly... because it works and minimizes danger to the attackers. That's why high ground is a sought in almost all situations.

Second, you point IS extremely valid. IF ESO PvP was even REMOTELY balanced (which it is not and never will be), a glass cannon SHOULD be able to do enough damage to wipe someone out quickly, with the downside being that they couldn't take much damage themselves and would go down quickly if attacked.

BUT... this game IS NOT and NEVER WILL BE balanced. There are broken skills, broken armor sets and broken monster sets. And worse, there are broken builds that capitalize on all of those to become neigh impossible to kill 1v1 for someone using a non-broken build.

People will TRY to say "Learn to Play", etc... but they are usually the ones using the broken builds to begin with. And I don't blame them. If something works, why not do it. I blame ESO and their complete lack of any motivation to make REAL changes.

Each item and skill should have a PvE and a PvP tab... then they'd have one effect against PvE monsters and a completely different effect against players in PvP. Then, they could balance the two arenas separately instead of trying the IMPOSSIBLE and balancing them together.

Bingo. This is exactly what I’m talking about, and the point entirely.

(Also, I don’t just spam snipe. lol That’s just what I was doing for this particular case. That, as a play style would be incredibly boring... and my NB is very, very fun. It’s a build I’ve yet to really see anywhere and requires me to constantly dive in and out of combat to reach full potential.)

Aluneth

Just because you don't agree with something, doesn't make it broken. You're playing as a glass cannon with a build that most likely isn't optimal. What did you expect?

Feanor

IF ESO PvP was even REMOTELY balanced (which it is not and never will be), a glass cannon SHOULD be able to do enough damage to wipe someone out quickly, with the downside being that they couldn't take much damage themselves and would go down quickly if attacked.

Except that being 41m away and being able to stealth on top of it completely removes that downside.

bg22

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

You did not talk about balance at all. You made the assumption that you should be able to kill a 1vXer by spamming snipe and then went on to list your stats and ask why that person didn’t die. So in other words, balance in your mind is when you should be allowed to kill people by snipe spamming them while they’re being 1vXed? This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do you with you simply being outplayed. Want to knows what’s not balanced? Lethal arrow. It’s the furthest ranged attack in the game, hits really hard, provides defile which scales stupidly well cp, and can be combined with CC poisons to act like a ranged incap strike. Being outplayed does not mean something is not balanced. Good players know that damage doesn’t come from using one skill but from lining up burst using several skills and animation cancelling. In this way someone can build to survive while using their knowledge of the game and skill to provide offensive damage as well.

He’s basically the poster child for zerglings, given his description. Pro tip, 1vXers are only so against potatoes.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

You did not talk about balance at all. You made the assumption that you should be able to kill a 1vXer by spamming snipe and then went on to list your stats and ask why that person didn’t die. So in other words, balance in your mind is when you should be allowed to kill people by snipe spamming them while they’re being 1vXed? This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do you with you simply being outplayed. Want to knows what’s not balanced? Lethal arrow. It’s the furthest ranged attack in the game, hits really hard, provides defile which scales stupidly well cp, and can be combined with CC poisons to act like a ranged incap strike. Being outplayed does not mean something is not balanced. Good players know that damage doesn’t come from using one skill but from lining up burst using several skills and animation cancelling. In this way someone can build to survive while using their knowledge of the game and skill to provide offensive damage as well.

He’s basically the poster child for zerglings, given his description. Pro tip, 1vXers are only so against potatoes.

Except for I almost never group. And when I do it’s with 3-5 players. Cool story tho. My favorite part was the end.

xxthir13enxx

Balance =Devs pick random class n build n make that the Meta for awhile til Everyone complains...leave alone for several months afterwards...Hit with Nerfs...Pick random class n build n make that the Meta for awhile til Everyone complains...leave alone for several months afterwards...Hit with Nerfs...Pick random class.....

Taleof2Cities

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

The only wrong presumption is to assume every player’s version of balance is the same.

ZOS not catering to your specific version of “balance”?

Well, at least you now have the correct context.

profundidob16_ESO

The devs and most players are missing the point entirely. Eventually everyone reaches the point where they realize that balance is not possible but the closer the game comes to balance the less fun it becomes until you're finally fighting there forever without anyone ever winning.

The game should not be made perfectly balanced but rather unbalanced and optimized in that direction, just like rock paper scissors. That way it would be a given that things are not balanced and commonly accepted but everyone would be having fun in playing their chose role.

The rogue and mage dps type glass cannons would have a blast 1-shotting eachother killer-be-killed style.

The pure tank type builds would have a blast surviving whatever tries to hit him but never doing dmge themselves

The pure cc types would not kill people often or easy but would disrupt the entire player field and experience great fun moving the chesspieces on the board

The pure healer types would truly enjoy being someone's pocket healer and keep him alive forever, until the cc archetype roots and cc's them and the killer-be-killed dps finishes him off.

No one would be immortal and excel but everyone would clearly feel the power and effect of the role they chose to play and experience the true fun and satisfactory feelings from their actions


EDIT: All I wrote here only applies to PVP. In PVE of course you want and can have balance

Feanor

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

The devs and most players are missing the poing entirely. Eventually everyone reaches the point where they realize that balance is not possible but the closer the game comes to balance the less fun it becomes until you're finally fighting there forever without anyone ever winning.

The game should not be made perfectly balanced but rather unbalanced and optimized in that direction, just like rock paper scissors. That way it would be a given that things are not balanced and commonly accepted but everyone would be having fun in playing their chose role.

The rogue and mage dps type glass cannons would have blast 1 shotting eachother killer-be-killed style.

The pure tank type builds would have a blast surviving whatever tries to hit him but never doing dmge themselves

The pure cc types would not kill people often or easy but would disrupt the entire player field and experience great fun moving the chesspieces on the board

The pure healer types would truly enjoy being someone's pocket healer and keep him alive forever, until the cc archetype roots and cc's them and the killer-be-killed dps finishes him off.

No one would be immortal and excel but everyone would clearly feel the power and effect of the role they chose to play and experience the true fun and satisfactory feelings that they bring

While that would be fun it would be a totally different game. ZOS has been driving "play as you want" and that everyone can do everything. PvP is not the key factor here. PvE is.

profundidob16_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

The devs and most players are missing the poing entirely. Eventually everyone reaches the point where they realize that balance is not possible but the closer the game comes to balance the less fun it becomes until you're finally fighting there forever without anyone ever winning.

The game should not be made perfectly balanced but rather unbalanced and optimized in that direction, just like rock paper scissors. That way it would be a given that things are not balanced and commonly accepted but everyone would be having fun in playing their chose role.

The rogue and mage dps type glass cannons would have blast 1 shotting eachother killer-be-killed style.

The pure tank type builds would have a blast surviving whatever tries to hit him but never doing dmge themselves

The pure cc types would not kill people often or easy but would disrupt the entire player field and experience great fun moving the chesspieces on the board

The pure healer types would truly enjoy being someone's pocket healer and keep him alive forever, until the cc archetype roots and cc's them and the killer-be-killed dps finishes him off.

No one would be immortal and excel but everyone would clearly feel the power and effect of the role they chose to play and experience the true fun and satisfactory feelings that they bring

While that would be fun it would be a totally different game. ZOS has been driving "play as you want" and that everyone can do everything. PvP is not the key factor here. PvE is.

agreed I was just talking about the pvp part

socivL

has anyone heard that they are closing down the ESO servers to begin work on their next big project in about 3 months?

Merlin13KAGL

ookami007 wrote: »

Second, you point IS extremely valid. IF ESO PvP was even REMOTELY balanced (which it is not and never will be), a glass cannon SHOULD be able to do enough damage to wipe someone out quickly, with the downside being that they couldn't take much damage themselves and would go down quickly if attacked.

Lol.

So you argue that one should be able to build to one extreme (OP) and you assume someone else (1vX guy) couldn't build to the other?

The assumptions being made are about the 'X,' not the '1.' If he had a tanky build, you'd neither kill him 1v1, nor he, you.

The additional players were likely feeding him heals, via proc set, poison, or other method. Eating your damage was not a deal breaker.

Now change the scenario, and make it actually 1v1 without those other factors involved, and you and OP might actually have a case.

Sorry, but there's too many unknowns to come to any valid conclusion, let alone to call for nerfs.

Sergykid

i imagine balance between different things like a rock-paper-scissors game. But to be balanced, everyone has to have a rock, a paper, and a scissor. Now, if someone who has a bigger rock, should be downed by either a paper well played, or a big paper.

problem here is that either the rock is absurdly high, or someone can't have a paper. As example: take permablock as a rock, and an unblockable CC as paper.

xxthir13enxx

Nerf Paper!!

Those damn papers have no right hiding behind shields!!!!

UppGRAYxDD

You see balance is: a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions...so if you think of it as a sea saw it should look like this:

instead of this:

NordSwordnBoard

"It's a fair cop"

CyrusArya

Balance is not just about gear, player skill is a huge part of the equation. You aren’t fighting npcs here. You’re facing intelligent humans with many hours of experience under their belt. All the stats in the world make 0 difference if you don’t know how to use em right.

For what it’s worth, assuming player skill and build level are equal, no player in this game will ever 1v2 similar tier opponents outside of a catastrophic mistake or gaffe on the X’s part. That’s where the balance is and thats what you and everyone who makes similar posts disregards....player skill.

DHale

First problem was using a bow. Now if only you put mark on him and stayed in stealth. Perfect nightblade.

bg22

Sergykid wrote: »

i imagine balance between different things like a rock-paper-scissors game. But to be balanced, everyone has to have a rock, a paper, and a scissor. Now, if someone who has a bigger rock, should be downed by either a paper well played, or a big paper.

problem here is that either the rock is absurdly high, or someone can't have a paper. As example: take permablock as a rock, and an unblockable CC as paper.

I should’ve added to my OP that this is also a way I see balance. Generally, HA>MA>LA>HA. But, this too, isn’t really very true in ESO.

bg22

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

ookami007 wrote: »

Second, you point IS extremely valid. IF ESO PvP was even REMOTELY balanced (which it is not and never will be), a glass cannon SHOULD be able to do enough damage to wipe someone out quickly, with the downside being that they couldn't take much damage themselves and would go down quickly if attacked.

Lol.

So you argue that one should be able to build to one extreme (OP) and you assume someone else (1vX guy) couldn't build to the other?

The assumptions being made are about the 'X,' not the '1.' If he had a tanky build, you'd neither kill him 1v1, nor he, you.

The additional players were likely feeding him heals, via proc set, poison, or other method. Eating your damage was not a deal breaker.

Now change the scenario, and make it actually 1v1 without those other factors involved, and you and OP might actually have a case.

Sorry, but there's too many unknowns to come to any valid conclusion, let alone to call for nerfs.

I’m not calling for nerfs at all, rather just pointing out that, in my eyes Zos has failed miserably at balance. That’s all. And asking if my assumption of balance was incorrect.

But as always, in roll insults and answers to questions I didn’t ask. Why yes, I’m a coward for playing a glass canon stealthy NB who bounces in and out of combat.

I suppose last month, and the previous 3 years I was a super brave hero, playing my MagDK 1h/s build and heads up playing everyone.

I’ve forgotten that how you want to have fun in a VR is now the measuring stick of ones valor.

Not all of my reply was to you, but to the vast majority of ignoramuses that have posted here with more assumptions (and incorrect ones) arguments against misunderstandings, than actual answers.

Grimhallow

bg22 wrote: »

Outstanding comprehension.

No... the point of this is that I can dish out a ton of damage, and the guy ate it WHILE killing several other ppl. Regardless of what skill I was using to deal the damage (or attempt to), that is not balance.

@bg22

Your own post makes it clear you can't dish out a ton of damage.

4,200 weapon damage isn't high for a glass cannon build. You also have to consider a variety of buffs, multipliers, resource pools, passives, and so on. Your build isn't "balanced"- it's just weak. And overly simplistic. You are focusing on a few key stats instead of creating a build centered around mechanics.

Balance allows for skill to be a driving factor in the effectiveness of builds. For example, the highest weapon damage you can get is from Fury, but in order to activate that damage, you have to take a lot of hits.

What you were saying earlier, how he was eating your snipes for lunch? It may have been more true than you know. If he is running heavy truth, for example, then your weak spammy hits are only serving to amplify his damage and healing.There are any number of strategies he could be using, any number of mechanics, to fight people who (as you put it) are not yet grandmasters.

I'm not trying to belittle or make fun of you. I have been exactly where you are. But think about it this way: The guy you were fighting? You have access to all the same sets and abilities that he does. More importantly, he dies too- it's not like he wins every fight he gets into. You just have to figure out how to fight him properly. It's very unlikely that you can kill a well prepared, well informed player without also being prepared and informed.

If you can provide a little more information, I would be happy to share with you some tricks of the trade. I also highly recommend watching Kena's Sap Tank Video. The build itself is no longer functional (ZoS did a lot to nerf the playstyle). But the lessons that his video can teach you about building around mechanics are invaluable.

Feel free to message me if you have any questions.

bg22

Grimick wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Outstanding comprehension.

No... the point of this is that I can dish out a ton of damage, and the guy ate it WHILE killing several other ppl. Regardless of what skill I was using to deal the damage (or attempt to), that is not balance.

@bg22

Your own post makes it clear you can't dish out a ton of damage.

4,200 weapon damage isn't high for a glass cannon build. You also have to consider a variety of buffs, multipliers, resource pools, passives, and so on. Your build isn't "balanced"- it's just weak. And overly simplistic. You are focusing on a few key stats instead of creating a build centered around mechanics.

Balance allows for skill to be a driving factor in the effectiveness of builds. For example, the highest weapon damage you can get is from Fury, but in order to activate that damage, you have to take a lot of hits.

What you were saying earlier, how he was eating your snipes for lunch? It may have been more true than you know. If he is running heavy truth, for example, then your weak spammy hits are only serving to amplify his damage and healing.There are any number of strategies he could be using, any number of mechanics, to fight people who (as you put it) are not yet grandmasters.

I'm not trying to belittle or make fun of you. I have been exactly where you are. But think about it this way: The guy you were fighting? You have access to all the same sets and abilities that he does. More importantly, he dies too- it's not like he wins every fight he gets into. You just have to figure out how to fight him properly. It's very unlikely that you can kill a well prepared, well informed player without also being prepared and informed.

If you can provide a little more information, I would be happy to share with you some tricks of the trade. I also highly recommend watching Kena's Sap Tank Video. The build itself is no longer functional (ZoS did a lot to nerf the playstyle). But the lessons that his video can teach you about building around mechanics are invaluable.

Feel free to message me if you have any questions.

No, most of what you said is correct, I know that. I know my build will not kill anyone with high crit resist and armor, it’s not made for it. But I have snipes that hit harder than anything I’ve seen with the most recent update. I hit ppl for 16k, and myself running all Devines (again, not built for survability in the way most are) hits hard. The point was, even though my character is not designed to kill heavy armor, he was also fighting (and beating) several others.

That’s kinda crazy.

Edziu

I will join to @bg22
I have similiar views for balance
I understand he is hiiting up to 16k into other glass cannon builds while to this tank which he described it was only for 6k and this wasnt any problem to him

ok, with balance as it was pure tank that makes sesne, balance but if we still going with balance this tank should be able to rekt even galsscannon...yes, he should be still able to glass cannon (cuz very very weak defences) but he shouldnt be able to rekt/melt hims very fast as we have it

I myself playing with something like glass cannon? but with high regens and this is just getting me sick as I cant deal decent damage to burst enough fast this tank to kill him, after few second he have full health and thats nonstop, its even hard to get him down to jsut 50% health while he in really tankly build is just purring on me few dots for example and doesnt let me run away and this is just melting me
major defile is more affecting me than him and I need to hafe finisher to finish fast this tank on low health becasue if now, only 1 second longer fight and in just moment he have 50% if not almost 100% health and here is going all my damage

and ofc dont forget that someone on tnakly build have no problem to kill other tankly build, jsut need a bit more time as its damn slow dps on those or need better planed combo and from here is going problem as tankly build is able to instagim galss cannon while this glass cannon isnt able to instagib tank or jsut fast kill becasue longer fight dont even going to be with glasscannon as its nonsense as we know on what is supposed to do glass cannon

for me the biggest problem are jsut many many to tankly sets and just option to stack as hell high resists, I can take for example jsut impregnable and full impene traits on armor...even your crit damage multiplier up to 210% is reduced to 100%(noncrit damage) with just those traits and set, and to this add you resists easy to cap or almost cap without tankly set but with damage set instead in heavy armor

this is how its going to tank have enough damage to instagib glasscannon but glasscannon have not enough damage to kill tank fast even with combo (yes we can kill tank with finishers after perfect combo but for combo you need time with cc and all time which you have with cc is going only on your combo and ots very often not full combo in this cc and we even dont have chance to finish tank because of break free and blokc rest with healing)

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Balance is achieved in ESO by non balance. Every combination of toon has a few ways of being OP. Use them.

Grimhallow

bg22 wrote: »

No, most of what you said is correct, I know that. I know my build will not kill anyone with high crit resist and armor, it’s not made for it. But I have snipes that hit harder than anything I’ve seen with the most recent update. I hit ppl for 16k, and myself running all Devines (again, not built for survability in the way most are) hits hard. The point was, even though my character is not designed to kill heavy armor, he was also fighting (and beating) several others.

That’s kinda crazy.

The problem is you don't hit for 16k, you hit for 6k. That's an important distinction, because when you hit somebody who is wearing mismatched armor, or hasn't heard of undaunted, you may hit much, much harder. But you want to consider what you hit a strong player for to be your true effective damage. Not to mention that you have no idea how strong or weak the other players he was fighting were.

So the question is, how can you do decent burst against a good player? Generally speaking, you either have to outburst their healing with a big damage combo, or you have to cripple their healing and resources, then wear them down with DoTs.

I recommend finding somebody who effectively (and very strongly) plays the style you want to, and ask him or her what they are doing. Watching other people's 1vX videos is a great place to start. It allows you to take your time and scrutinize what these players are doing. You'll notice they don't all run the same builds either, which is a good thing! Some classes are more forgiving than others, while some have higher 1vX potential just because of a few unique passives or skills. Some players are stronger in a tower; others in an open field. Some are stronger in small groups; others solo.

A 1vX player has mastered their damage combo, and is able to effectively mitigate the damage of others while weaving in their own. A magicka DK, for example, can take an enormous amount of heat, since they can heal based on max heath, power lashes, as well as ultimates, and the number of people their inhale hits. The more people around them, the more they can apply burning embers, inhale, and generate ulti.

If a talented DK is fighting a group of potatoes, then a 6k snipe may be no sweat at all, because there are a plethora of healing options available to them.

Again, we would need more information to help you scrutinize exactly what happened and why. But from my perspective your situation doesn't sound particularly unusual or ridiculous.

But I would love to help you solve those mysteries. Overcoming them will make you way more comfortable as a player, and a force to be reckoned with in Cyrodiil. I still remember the first time I witnessed a 1vX- it was unbelievable. Play in a way that makes other people think the same way about you.