I’m having trouble understanding balance...

bg22

And I think Zos is too, but maybe someone can help educate me.

So, historically, I always imagined character balance on any game like a scale (hence the word balance) with damage on one side, Defense on the other. And I’ve most recently built a glass canon. However some ppl have builds that I simply cannot kill, that have substantial damage to go along with their incredibly high armor and survivability.

I’m running about 4200 weapon damage and 12k~ pen, yet I was hitting these dude from max range snipe, WHILE they were 1vXing and my hits were laughable (6k at best), and they could heal through my damage, AND the others they were facing (3-4 others) without an actual healer present.

I acknowledge that I’m no grandmaster at ESO, but a serious question emerges... 2, actually: How, and why?

Enlighten me.

phaneub17_ESO

You want balance, play in the Non-CP Campaign. While sure there's fewer people there, but at least you take out Champion point placement out of the equation, then its all abilities and gear to worry about.

Vapirko

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Drdeath20

I always assumed there was a give and take when it came to balance but after playing the 4 original classes i realized that ZoS hates templars in both pve and pvp. Just nuke the class at start from ground zero. Im convinced ZoS doesnt test because i just dont see or notice balance

Mattock_Romulus

Balance is not possible.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

There is so many variables in this game that it is hilarious to me that you think PvP could ever be "balanced" the way you think.

bg22

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

RANKK7

devs too.

Vapirko

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

You did not talk about balance at all. You made the assumption that you should be able to kill a 1vXer by spamming snipe and then went on to list your stats and ask why that person didn’t die. So in other words, balance in your mind is when you should be allowed to kill people by snipe spamming them while they’re being 1vXed? This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do you with you simply being outplayed. Want to knows what’s not balanced? Lethal arrow. It’s the furthest ranged attack in the game, hits really hard, provides defile which scales stupidly well cp, and can be combined with CC poisons to act like a ranged incap strike. Being outplayed does not mean something is not balanced. Good players know that damage doesn’t come from using one skill but from lining up burst using several skills and animation cancelling. In this way someone can build to survive while using their knowledge of the game and skill to provide offensive damage as well.

Feanor

The assumption you should be able to kill someone from 41m away just spamming one ability is unbalanced in itself. Also, 4,200 WD probably is far from a true cannon, glass or no.

Your Xv1 scenario doesn’t say anything about balance but a lot about the players involved.

kadar

bg22 wrote: »

And I think Zos is too, but maybe someone can help educate me.

So, historically, I always imagined character balance on any game like a scale (hence the word balance) with damage on one side, Defense on the other. And I’ve most recently built a glass canon. However some ppl have builds that I simply cannot kill, that have substantial damage to go along with their incredibly high armor and survivability.

I’m running about 4200 weapon damage and 12k~ pen, yet I was hitting these dude from max range snipe, WHILE they were 1vXing and my hits were laughable (6k at best), and they could heal through my damage, AND the others they were facing (3-4 others) without an actual healer present.

I acknowledge that I’m no grandmaster at ESO, but a serious question emerges... 2, actually: How, and why?

Enlighten me.

Projectile builds are weak against a skilled player. DK, Warden, Templar and NB all also have anti-range utility build into their kit. Ranged projectiles are easily reacted to: "oh, a snipe noise from somewhere?" *roll dodges*

ATomiX96

lmao snipe spammer questioning game balance... ironic.

bg22

ATomiX96 wrote: »

lmao snipe spammer questioning game balance... ironic.

Why’s that funny? I hit for 13k+ With snipe but if I’m caught I’m dead. There’s no way around it. I have zero survivabilty.

My character is perfectly balanced.

What’s not balanced is builds that hit for 8k and can literally roll their face across a keyboard and survive.

Lysette

Eventually try the shadow stone and divines on your gear - the increased critical damage might do the trick eventually.

bg22

The_Outsider wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

And I think Zos is too, but maybe someone can help educate me.

So, historically, I always imagined character balance on any game like a scale (hence the word balance) with damage on one side, Defense on the other. And I’ve most recently built a glass canon. However some ppl have builds that I simply cannot kill, that have substantial damage to go along with their incredibly high armor and survivability.

I’m running about 4200 weapon damage and 12k~ pen, yet I was hitting these dude from max range snipe, WHILE they were 1vXing and my hits were laughable (6k at best), and they could heal through my damage, AND the others they were facing (3-4 others) without an actual healer present.

I acknowledge that I’m no grandmaster at ESO, but a serious question emerges... 2, actually: How, and why?

Enlighten me.

Projectile builds are weak against a skilled player. DK, Warden, Templar and NB all also have anti-range utility build into their kit. Ranged projectiles are easily reacted to: "oh, a snipe noise from somewhere?" *roll dodges*

You’re arguing with someone else other than me. I know ranger builds are counterable. What’s that have to do with my post in any way?

bg22

Feanor wrote: »

The assumption you should be able to kill someone from 41m away just spamming one ability is unbalanced in itself. Also, 4,200 WD probably is far from a true cannon, glass or no.

Your Xv1 scenario doesn’t say anything about balance but a lot about the players involved.

No, my scenario says everything about balance. This guy wasn’t even fighting me, and I hit hard (snipes from anywhere normally 10k up to 16k but have zero survivability, and that’s how it should be). He was 1vXing, while eating my snipe for lunch. THAT is not balance.

By the majority of you not seeing the imbalance in my OP, I now understand why this game is not balanced in anyway... it apparently is NOT common sense to understand something so simple as the concept of balance.

bg22

Vapirko wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

You did not talk about balance at all. You made the assumption that you should be able to kill a 1vXer by spamming snipe and then went on to list your stats and ask why that person didn’t die. So in other words, balance in your mind is when you should be allowed to kill people by snipe spamming them while they’re being 1vXed? This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do you with you simply being outplayed. Want to knows what’s not balanced? Lethal arrow. It’s the furthest ranged attack in the game, hits really hard, provides defile which scales stupidly well cp, and can be combined with CC poisons to act like a ranged incap strike. Being outplayed does not mean something is not balanced. Good players know that damage doesn’t come from using one skill but from lining up burst using several skills and animation cancelling. In this way someone can build to survive while using their knowledge of the game and skill to provide offensive damage as well.

Outstanding comprehension.

No... the point of this is that I can dish out a ton of damage, and the guy ate it WHILE killing several other ppl. Regardless of what skill I was using to deal the damage (or attempt to), that is not balance.

Feanor

bg22 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The assumption you should be able to kill someone from 41m away just spamming one ability is unbalanced in itself. Also, 4,200 WD probably is far from a true cannon, glass or no.

Your Xv1 scenario doesn’t say anything about balance but a lot about the players involved.

No, my scenario says everything about balance. This guy wasn’t even fighting me, and I hit hard (snipes from anywhere normally 10k up to 16k but have zero survivability, and that’s how it should be). He was 1vXing, while eating my snipe for lunch. THAT is not balance.

By the majority of you not seeing the imbalance in my OP, I now understand why this game is not balanced in anyway... it apparently is NOT common sense to understand something so simple as the concept of balance.

Well, try to see it this way: If your Snipe could do enough damage on ANY build the opponent runs you shouldn't (and probably wouldn't) be able to hit from 41m in the first place. If you could kill anyone from 41m away just by pressing one button - THAT would be imbalanced.

As for the 1vX part, the fact he could shrug off 6k snipes every 1.1 seconds while fighting 4 players probably just shows the 4 players were really not good. Nothing else.

kadar

bg22 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

And I think Zos is too, but maybe someone can help educate me.

So, historically, I always imagined character balance on any game like a scale (hence the word balance) with damage on one side, Defense on the other. And I’ve most recently built a glass canon. However some ppl have builds that I simply cannot kill, that have substantial damage to go along with their incredibly high armor and survivability.

I’m running about 4200 weapon damage and 12k~ pen, yet I was hitting these dude from max range snipe, WHILE they were 1vXing and my hits were laughable (6k at best), and they could heal through my damage, AND the others they were facing (3-4 others) without an actual healer present.

I acknowledge that I’m no grandmaster at ESO, but a serious question emerges... 2, actually: How, and why?

Enlighten me.

Projectile builds are weak against a skilled player. DK, Warden, Templar and NB all also have anti-range utility build into their kit. Ranged projectiles are easily reacted to: "oh, a snipe noise from somewhere?" *roll dodges*

You’re arguing with someone else other than me. I know ranger builds are counterable. What’s that have to do with my post in any way?

You're running a projectile build. In your example, you were ineffective against a player who was 1vXing.

How, and why?

You asked how. Part of the how is because projectile builds are not very effective against skilled players for the reasons listed above^ You also asked why. Because projectiles are easily intentionally or unintentionally avoided.

I'm answering you're question, not arguing a point...

edit: the "balance" portion is against scrubs. I have no doubt that you absolutely melt newer or less skilled players before they can ever react. That's what snipe excels at. Again, snipe is bad against skilled players. Balance.

Lysette

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

You did not talk about balance at all. You made the assumption that you should be able to kill a 1vXer by spamming snipe and then went on to list your stats and ask why that person didn’t die. So in other words, balance in your mind is when you should be allowed to kill people by snipe spamming them while they’re being 1vXed? This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do you with you simply being outplayed. Want to knows what’s not balanced? Lethal arrow. It’s the furthest ranged attack in the game, hits really hard, provides defile which scales stupidly well cp, and can be combined with CC poisons to act like a ranged incap strike. Being outplayed does not mean something is not balanced. Good players know that damage doesn’t come from using one skill but from lining up burst using several skills and animation cancelling. In this way someone can build to survive while using their knowledge of the game and skill to provide offensive damage as well.

Outstanding comprehension.

No... the point of this is that I can dish out a ton of damage, and the guy ate it WHILE killing several other ppl. Regardless of what skill I was using to deal the damage (or attempt to), that is not balance.

Hm, but it is actually not that hard to make a tanky build, with high regen and high health, having heal abilities running and still ditch out decent damage - it should be hard to kill a tank - that is why it is a tank, who can take the damage and stay in the fire for quite some time.

Edit: I will give an example of one of my low level characters, which is tanky build - I have about 30k health, 2.5k basic regen, when healing is active that is about 6k regen - so it would take you quite a while to get through that health and regen with 13k hits, if I would not try to avoid it. That character can still deal 7k damage - and is not even a higher level character. It is really not hard to make a tanky build. Maybe I should add with just standard blue quality gear, enchantments and the like - nothing special really and still tanky with decent damage.

Hm, no, I remember now that I use a full beekeeper set on that character with high regen and health set boni - but it is still just blue quality.

MakoFore

this thread could have literally been started and titled by the combat developers.....

Lysette

Another thing which comes to mind with sniping from that far away - the inability to work with finisher skills,due to that you are too far away to apply those - a kill with just snipe is not really likely, so you might have to think your tactics over.

Marto

I think that balance in ESO is in essence the same as what you mentioned, with a balance between attack and defensive capabilities. But unlike other MMOs, there's multiple types of attack and defensive capabilities in ESO.

Your capacity for attack can be meassured in things like weapon/spell damage, debuffs, and disables. Sorcs have the best weapon/spell damage, Nightblades have the best debufs, etc.

Your capacity for defense can be meassured in things like armor values, block effectiveness/cost, dodge roll, evasion, wards, purging, and self healing. Dragonknights have the best blocking, Templars have the best self healing, etc.

This makes ESO incredibly varied in terms of build choices, but also makes it far more complex in terms of balance.

Lysette

Marto wrote: »

I think that balance in ESO is in essence the same as what you mentioned, with a balance between attack and defensive capabilities. But unlike other MMOs, there's multiple types of attack and defensive capabilities in ESO.

Your capacity for attack can be meassured in things like weapon/spell damage, debuffs, and disables. Sorcs have the best weapon/spell damage, Nightblades have the best debufs, etc.

Your capacity for defense can be meassured in things like armor values, block effectiveness/cost, dodge roll, evasion, wards, purging, and self healing. Dragonknights have the best blocking, Templars have the best self healing, etc.

This makes ESO incredibly varied in terms of build choices, but also makes it far more complex in terms of balance.

And the combination of mundus stone and traits on your gear adds to variety as well.

Peekachu99

Vapirko wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

You did not talk about balance at all. You made the assumption that you should be able to kill a 1vXer by spamming snipe and then went on to list your stats and ask why that person didn’t die. So in other words, balance in your mind is when you should be allowed to kill people by snipe spamming them while they’re being 1vXed? This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do you with you simply being outplayed. Want to knows what’s not balanced? Lethal arrow. It’s the furthest ranged attack in the game, hits really hard, provides defile which scales stupidly well cp, and can be combined with CC poisons to act like a ranged incap strike. Being outplayed does not mean something is not balanced. Good players know that damage doesn’t come from using one skill but from lining up burst using several skills and animation cancelling. In this way someone can build to survive while using their knowledge of the game and skill to provide offensive damage as well.

He’s basically the poster child for zerglings, given his description. Pro tip, 1vXers are only so against potatoes.

Heka Cain

Try plate spinning or juggling or tight rope walking!

Kikke

Zeni has not ONCE said that they are aiming for balance.

What they HAVE said multiple times tho, is that they balance around counters.

So X has a easy time against A.
A has a easy time against B.
B has a easy time against X.

They dont want 100% balance all around, they want people to use smart counters to other smart builds. L2P.

DanteYoda

Balance = everyone the same..

Not sure what zos issue is its not rocket science.. All classes should do same damage same heals and same defence..



Not sure why others have so much difficulty understanding this concept.

Vapirko

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Well first all damage in PvP is affected by battle spirit and halved. Secondly don’t be that guy spamming snipe on people fighting out numbered. Other than that there’s no way in hell to tell you what was up as description of battle are often biased and there’s no way to tell what was actually going on.

Thanks but I’ll play however I want to play. I gave you no context, but you just presume that’s all I do. I wasn’t asking for play advice, I asked if I was wrong in presumption to imagine balance as I do.

You did not talk about balance at all. You made the assumption that you should be able to kill a 1vXer by spamming snipe and then went on to list your stats and ask why that person didn’t die. So in other words, balance in your mind is when you should be allowed to kill people by snipe spamming them while they’re being 1vXed? This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do you with you simply being outplayed. Want to knows what’s not balanced? Lethal arrow. It’s the furthest ranged attack in the game, hits really hard, provides defile which scales stupidly well cp, and can be combined with CC poisons to act like a ranged incap strike. Being outplayed does not mean something is not balanced. Good players know that damage doesn’t come from using one skill but from lining up burst using several skills and animation cancelling. In this way someone can build to survive while using their knowledge of the game and skill to provide offensive damage as well.

Outstanding comprehension.

No... the point of this is that I can dish out a ton of damage, and the guy ate it WHILE killing several other ppl. Regardless of what skill I was using to deal the damage (or attempt to), that is not balance.

Lol. I’m not the one lacking comprehension. Sounds like a good player. The fact is that right now it’s harder than it has ever been to 1vX. All of the changes made to this game in the past year or so have benefited group play. So kudos to this guy who was able to do this, you can’t even begin to talk about balance until you know you’re up 1v1 against a player of equal skill. Just because someone can play in a way that confounds you does not mean the game is unbalanced. I’ve made my own fair share of posts similar to this in the past, when I didn’t understand PvP that well and people were able to pull off feats that I did not understand and that made me angry and want to ask for nerfs or “balance.” I now realize almost every one of those posts was simply misinformed.

Asardes

I don't want to laugh at OP, but I've seen a dude with 2-3 stars once in Cyrodiil that did literally nothing else than snipe and heavy attack from the back of the zerg. I usually treat such people with a serving of Reflective Plate or Shimmering Shield into a really hard hitting ultimate

gnarlyvandal

bg22 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

And I think Zos is too, but maybe someone can help educate me.

So, historically, I always imagined character balance on any game like a scale (hence the word balance) with damage on one side, Defense on the other. And I’ve most recently built a glass canon. However some ppl have builds that I simply cannot kill, that have substantial damage to go along with their incredibly high armor and survivability.

I’m running about 4200 weapon damage and 12k~ pen, yet I was hitting these dude from max range snipe, WHILE they were 1vXing and my hits were laughable (6k at best), and they could heal through my damage, AND the others they were facing (3-4 others) without an actual healer present.

I acknowledge that I’m no grandmaster at ESO, but a serious question emerges... 2, actually: How, and why?

Enlighten me.

Projectile builds are weak against a skilled player. DK, Warden, Templar and NB all also have anti-range utility build into their kit. Ranged projectiles are easily reacted to: "oh, a snipe noise from somewhere?" *roll dodges*

You’re arguing with someone else other than me. I know ranger builds are counterable. What’s that have to do with my post in any way?

This guy gave you an answer, not an argument.