[VID] Thogard & Gilliam Find Your Missing (and cloaked) DAWNBREAKERS

Thogard

We all have lost dawnbreakers or know someone who has experienced them vanishing into thin air... To put an end to this tragedy, I teamed up with @Gilliamtherogue to find out where these poor, innocent dawnbreakers were going to.

Our hard work paid off! We were able to unmask the culprit, but t turns out that it wasn't one, but THREE reasons that we could find that explain why dawnbreakers are vanishing all over the place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkCdxE-HOS8

Please share this video with friends to spread awareness. Only by spreading awareness can we help find permanent homes for these dawnbreakers.

Thogard

There is a written summary of everything at exactly 36s if you want to pause the video at that time. Some of it is hard to explain without seeing it for yourself, so I recommend watching the video.

ShadowMonarch

Assassins will, the magblade burst ability, also gets same thing as #2. If your target moves or it kiting around any LOS and you fire it there is a good chance it will just disappear.

I knew people had to be still taking the dawnbreaker damage!!! Though to be fair its only because I have been killed by dawnbreaker while cloaking away.

It would be nice to build up a catalog of all the ability's affected, though I have to seriously doubt zos will fix the problem in a timely manor.

Nice job testing and recording your findings!!!

React

Don't forget, dawnbreaker is also dodgeable by evasion, once again. I assume this means it is also dodgeable via dodge roll, but haven't taken clips of enough scenario us where this appears to have been the case to prove it

Thogard

Liam12548 wrote: »

Don't forget, dawnbreaker is also dodgeable by evasion, once again. I assume this means it is also dodgeable via dodge roll, but haven't taken clips of enough scenario us where this appears to have been the case to prove it

This is not accurate, but if you have a clip of it being dodged this patch (rather than the light attack you ani cancelled) please post!

Vapirko

This is actually helpful, thanks! I’ve also had DBoS cancel out as I was feared apparently at exactly the same moment. Or maybe it was slightly before, but at any rate the fear took priority and I lost my ult charge. What’s up with that? I asked the NB if he saw or got hit by a DBoS, no, he did not.

Thogard

Vapirko wrote: »

This is actually helpful, thanks! I’ve also had DBoS cancel out as I was feared apparently at exactly the same moment. Or maybe it was slightly before, but at any rate the fear took priority and I lost my ult charge. What’s up with that? I asked the NB if he saw or got hit by a DBoS, no, he did not.

Yeah that vamp stun and the reactive rune prison thing sorcs have... I didn’t include them because I wasn’t sure if it was “bug” or “feature” lol

Vapirko

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

This is actually helpful, thanks! I’ve also had DBoS cancel out as I was feared apparently at exactly the same moment. Or maybe it was slightly before, but at any rate the fear took priority and I lost my ult charge. What’s up with that? I asked the NB if he saw or got hit by a DBoS, no, he did not.

Yeah that vamp stun and the reactive rune prison thing sorcs have... I didn’t include them because I wasn’t sure if it was “bug” or “feature” lol

Having it not go off because of the cc can be a feature, losing the charge though?

Waffennacht

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

This is actually helpful, thanks! I’ve also had DBoS cancel out as I was feared apparently at exactly the same moment. Or maybe it was slightly before, but at any rate the fear took priority and I lost my ult charge. What’s up with that? I asked the NB if he saw or got hit by a DBoS, no, he did not.

Yeah that vamp stun and the reactive rune prison thing sorcs have... I didn’t include them because I wasn’t sure if it was “bug” or “feature” lol

Having it not go off because of the cc can be a feature, losing the charge though?

Well you wouldn't trigger defensive rune if you didn't use the ult to cast DB for it to trigger

Thogard

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

This is actually helpful, thanks! I’ve also had DBoS cancel out as I was feared apparently at exactly the same moment. Or maybe it was slightly before, but at any rate the fear took priority and I lost my ult charge. What’s up with that? I asked the NB if he saw or got hit by a DBoS, no, he did not.

Yeah that vamp stun and the reactive rune prison thing sorcs have... I didn’t include them because I wasn’t sure if it was “bug” or “feature” lol

Having it not go off because of the cc can be a feature, losing the charge though?

Not sure if it’s a bug or a feature, also not sure if it makes much of a difference from a mechanics or balance standpoint.

If a sorc is Nearby it’s just really important to make sure you get a light attack weave in before the DBoS

Own

Liam12548 wrote: »

Don't forget, dawnbreaker is also dodgeable by evasion, once again. I assume this means it is also dodgeable via dodge roll, but haven't taken clips of enough scenario us where this appears to have been the case to prove it

Steel Tornado is also dodgable by evasion.

Thogard

Own wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Don't forget, dawnbreaker is also dodgeable by evasion, once again. I assume this means it is also dodgeable via dodge roll, but haven't taken clips of enough scenario us where this appears to have been the case to prove it

Steel Tornado is also dodgable by evasion.

Not since dragonbones has this been true, but the procs from it can be AFAIK.

If you have any video evidence that shows steel tornado being dodged plz post - I’d love to have something else to test.

We actually spent a solid 30 min playing around with steel tornado because it follows some of the same rules for when it gets cancelled. It is a weird skill, but that is not one of the issues it has.

Thogard

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Assassins will, the magblade burst ability, also gets same thing as #2. If your target moves or it kiting around any LOS and you fire it there is a good chance it will just disappear.

I knew people had to be still taking the dawnbreaker damage!!! Though to be fair its only because I have been killed by dawnbreaker while cloaking away.

It would be nice to build up a catalog of all the ability's affected, though I have to seriously doubt zos will fix the problem in a timely manor.

Nice job testing and recording your findings!!!

That’s single target though.. dizzy swing would do the same. It’s frustrating but I’m not sure it’s a bug.

DBoS is odd because it’s technically an AOE and should follow AOE rules.. but it still get cancelled the same way a single target ability would be.

Vaoh

Not sure if this was covered, but for #3, if Gilliam heals up the damage that was dealt to him (which he can’t see) it will be negated. Seems to me that the game refuses to lower his on-screen health because he used Cloak, meaning all DoTs should be suppressed. Weird stuff lol.

Vaoh

I’ve found a skill with a similar issue which I won’t name, but the main difference is that after a period of time, the opponents Health is eventually resynced (when the caster chooses it to happen...).

The result is that the target looks as if they lose a chunk of health at once, when in reality it was a barrage of attacks. If a HoT/Shield is up while the desync gradually occurs, then the “barrage” of Damage at the end appears but seemingly has no effect.

Tough to explain

Thogard

Vaoh wrote: »

Not sure if this was covered, but for #3, if Gilliam heals up the damage that was dealt to him (which he can’t see) it will be negated. Seems to me that the game refuses to lower his on-screen health because he used Cloak, meaning all DoTs should be suppressed. Weird stuff lol.

No, you can see his health fluctuating. Watch the target bar at the top if you’d like to see the actual number. Then he just drops dead at around 10k.

He used cloak but he didn’t reactivate it, so he wouldn’t have that dot supression once we start testing his HP level or the type of desync.

Vaoh

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Not sure if this was covered, but for #3, if Gilliam heals up the damage that was dealt to him (which he can’t see) it will be negated. Seems to me that the game refuses to lower his on-screen health because he used Cloak, meaning all DoTs should be suppressed. Weird stuff lol.

No, you can see his health fluctuating. Watch the target bar at the top if you’d like to see the actual number. Then he just drops dead at around 10k.

He used cloak but he didn’t reactivate it, so he wouldn’t have that dot supression once we start testing his HP level or the type of desync.

What I meant was, even though he didn’t have the DoT suppression (so he takes full damage from the Dawnbreaker), the mechanic itself is probably the cause of the bug. That’s my guess at least.

In terms of the desync, the way it works (solely based on my experience from thorough testing with a similar health desync) is that:
1. The initial Dmg and following ticks of damage are being calculated as normal, but not visible to anyone. If you were to kill Gilliam almost immediately after casting Dawnbreaker, less of his Health would appear desynced because the DoT from Dawnbreaker would not have had time to fully deal its damage yet. The missing health is all of the damage dealt by Dawnbreaker on the server side. Dawnbreaker’s Damage has already registered, so you are actually hitting a much lower health target than it seems, which is why Steel Tornado’s Damage increases like in execute range despite Gilliam looking like he’s at high health.
2. If Gilliam heals up after that Dawnbreaker (it’d look like wasted overhealing) the desync will not occur because he would be healing the damage that is server side but obv not showing client side. It’s kind of a mess when factured with other attacks and heals/damage shields, etc

Like I said, I base this from my testing with a different skill that works exactly as I described here. I think there are similarities between the skill I tested and Dawnbreaker’s strange health desync.I could be totally wrong and the health desyncs are totally different Either way very nice video!

_Ahala_

Well this explains a lot... Thank you guys for doing these tests

ShadowMonarch

Thogard wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Assassins will, the magblade burst ability, also gets same thing as #2. If your target moves or it kiting around any LOS and you fire it there is a good chance it will just disappear.

I knew people had to be still taking the dawnbreaker damage!!! Though to be fair its only because I have been killed by dawnbreaker while cloaking away.

It would be nice to build up a catalog of all the ability's affected, though I have to seriously doubt zos will fix the problem in a timely manor.

Nice job testing and recording your findings!!!

That’s single target though.. dizzy swing would do the same. It’s frustrating but I’m not sure it’s a bug.

DBoS is odd because it’s technically an AOE and should follow AOE rules.. but it still get cancelled the same way a single target ability would be.

If your behind a wall and I cast it while your tab targeted it will just disappear, even if your not in los at all.

If your not tab targeted and you happen to leave my los between the time the button is hit and the cast actually leaves my hand it is also consumed.

I got some clips with a friend and I will post in a short while after I cut them together. I can show better then I can explain it. Keep in mind the cast time of Assassins will is instant.

Thogard

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

Assassins will, the magblade burst ability, also gets same thing as #2. If your target moves or it kiting around any LOS and you fire it there is a good chance it will just disappear.

I knew people had to be still taking the dawnbreaker damage!!! Though to be fair its only because I have been killed by dawnbreaker while cloaking away.

It would be nice to build up a catalog of all the ability's affected, though I have to seriously doubt zos will fix the problem in a timely manor.

Nice job testing and recording your findings!!!

That’s single target though.. dizzy swing would do the same. It’s frustrating but I’m not sure it’s a bug.

DBoS is odd because it’s technically an AOE and should follow AOE rules.. but it still get cancelled the same way a single target ability would be.

If your behind a wall and I cast it while your tab targeted it will just disapear, even if your not in los, if sombody happens to be leaving los at the same time it will start to cast, then fail and proc consumed.

That is interesting about the first part of that - how how if someone is behind a wall and you have them tab targeted, it’ll still consume the ult. DBoS is blocked from casting in that situation - I can spam it but the button does nothing - which is the mechanic that causes it to get deleted when I get LoS’d and therefore go from a “ability usable” status to a “ability unusable” status mid animation, but before server dmg calculations.

It seems to me that assassin’s will might have the same result of getting deleted by LoS, but it sounds like it’s being caused by a totally different mechanic.

EDIT: you can actually force-miss the dmg of an assassin’s will with cloak, right? It’s a reflectable projectile so I’ve always assumed that’s the case...

The NB In general is just such a buggy class I feel if I try to do anything like this vid with their skills I’ll never be able to finish lol.

Thogard

Vaoh wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Not sure if this was covered, but for #3, if Gilliam heals up the damage that was dealt to him (which he can’t see) it will be negated. Seems to me that the game refuses to lower his on-screen health because he used Cloak, meaning all DoTs should be suppressed. Weird stuff lol.

No, you can see his health fluctuating. Watch the target bar at the top if you’d like to see the actual number. Then he just drops dead at around 10k.

He used cloak but he didn’t reactivate it, so he wouldn’t have that dot supression once we start testing his HP level or the type of desync.

What I meant was, even though he didn’t have the DoT suppression (so he takes full damage from the Dawnbreaker), the mechanic itself is probably the cause of the bug. That’s my guess at least.

In terms of the desync, the way it works (solely based on my experience from thorough testing with a similar health desync) is that:
1. The initial Dmg and following ticks of damage are being calculated as normal, but not visible to anyone. If you were to kill Gilliam almost immediately after casting Dawnbreaker, less of his Health would appear desynced because the DoT from Dawnbreaker would not have had time to fully deal its damage yet. The missing health is all of the damage dealt by Dawnbreaker on the server side. Dawnbreaker’s Damage has already registered, so you are actually hitting a much lower health target than it seems, which is why Steel Tornado’s Damage increases like in execute range despite Gilliam looking like he’s at high health.
2. If Gilliam heals up after that Dawnbreaker (it’d look like wasted overhealing) the desync will not occur because he would be healing the damage that is server side but obv not showing client side. It’s kind of a mess when factured with other attacks and heals/damage shields, etc

Like I said, I base this from my testing with a different skill that works exactly as I described here. I think there are similarities between the skill I tested and Dawnbreaker’s strange health desync.I could be totally wrong and the health desyncs are totally different Either way very nice video!

I see what you’re saying now. That makes perfect sense and I agree completely

ShadowMonarch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb3qpzBvtGk&feature=youtu.be

DDuke

Awesome, one mystery solved! Thanks for taking the time to test this.

I think this might be the same health desync that happens with Snipe actually. When those desyncs happen you also see the snipes on combat log (but not visually on the screen).

Something to do with LOS (of either the sniper or the target) as well perhaps? Could be worth investigating as well

Thogard

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb3qpzBvtGk&feature=youtu.be

Very very very interesting.

I always assumed assassin’s will just followed the regular projectile rules. If it’s not too much to ask, could you do the exaxt same tests with another projectile for comparison? I’d recommend Hidden Blade in DW skill line... (the one that doesn’t bounce into multiple targets) because it’s also an instant cast projectile direct dmg without a dot component or parabolic/arc travel path.

I’m at GF’s now and typing from phone so I can’t test.

When we were doing the DBoS stuff we did a lot of steel tornado as a baseline and there were differences - steel tornado would still cast when the target wasn’t in LoS, it just wouldn’t animate.

Edit: also if you use the skill with nobody targeted, will it fire? Most single target abilities won’t.

I might be misremembering this but I’m pretty sure that A long time ago, when I was new to PvP, you could line of sight projectiles while they were mid flight. If a snipe was coming at you and you ran behind a wall before it hit you; the snipe would miss. As players got better and LoSing became more of a thing, this was changed because it totally ruined ranged builds. (IIRC you could break LoS for a split second then go right back in the open again and it would still force a miss of a projectile, even if you were fully in the open when the projectile would have hit you)

It sounds to me like assassin’s will might still be following those old rules.

Thogard

DDuke wrote: »

Awesome, one mystery solved! Thanks for taking the time to test this.

I think this might be the same health desync that happens with Snipe actually. When those desyncs happen you also see the snipes on combat log (but not visually on the screen).

Something to do with LOS (of either the sniper or the target) as well perhaps? Could be worth investigating as well

Hmmm but the sniper is the initiator of the desync, not on the receiving end... I had been told that it was doing something similar but using a range break instead of an LoS break.. basically queueing up snipes and then having a server say “oh wait that can’t happen” when it does the server side range check .2s later due to lag... but then you could somehow force a client side - only range check by using the prepatxh silver bolt (kind of the same way block cancelling a reverse slice makes it hit faster) and that would force out all the smiles that your client thinks you did but the server thinks you didn’t by forcing the client to override the server with the silver bolt skill.

That’s how it was explained to me anyway but it’s such a cheap exploit that I’ve never bothered to try to reproduce it... the bug hurts the recipient, not the user like in this...

And even if I could reproduce it, which I’ve never done because I haven’t used snipe in PvP in over a year.... I feel like a vid on that wouldnt exactly make the world a better place.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Dawnbreaker, creating mysteries since 2014.....truly legendary.

DarkAedin

Thogard and Gilliam.
Dangerous combo.
Must. Have. Moar.

DarkAedin

Phone duplicated post. Or maybe it was just that exciting.

rfennell_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Awesome, one mystery solved! Thanks for taking the time to test this.

I think this might be the same health desync that happens with Snipe actually. When those desyncs happen you also see the snipes on combat log (but not visually on the screen).

Something to do with LOS (of either the sniper or the target) as well perhaps? Could be worth investigating as well

I've seen the no warning "health desync" (I don't think it's actually a health desync, but no notification of the first snipe at all) without either caster or target moving. I've always chalked it up as a glitch from in game cell to cell; ie if caster is in a different "cell" (zos' terminology for sub zones in cyrodil) attacking someone the queued snipe animation will not register the first strike, they will appear to hit simultaneously. Someone really ought to test this..

rfennell_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

We all have lost dawnbreakers or know someone who has experienced them vanishing into thin air... To put an end to this tragedy, I teamed up with @Gilliamtherogue to find out where these poor, innocent dawnbreakers were going to.

Our hard work paid off! We were able to unmask the culprit, but t turns out that it wasn't one, but THREE reasons that we could find that explain why dawnbreakers are vanishing all over the place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkCdxE-HOS8

Please share this video with friends to spread awareness. Only by spreading awareness can we help find permanent homes for these dawnbreakers.

good stuff

There might be at least one more reason which is positional desync due to perceived location and speed.

Thogard

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

We all have lost dawnbreakers or know someone who has experienced them vanishing into thin air... To put an end to this tragedy, I teamed up with @Gilliamtherogue to find out where these poor, innocent dawnbreakers were going to.

Our hard work paid off! We were able to unmask the culprit, but t turns out that it wasn't one, but THREE reasons that we could find that explain why dawnbreakers are vanishing all over the place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkCdxE-HOS8

Please share this video with friends to spread awareness. Only by spreading awareness can we help find permanent homes for these dawnbreakers.

good stuff

There might be at least one more reason which is positional desync due to perceived location and speed.

True. There’s also one based on how the dawnbreaker to-hit box point on the enemy’s Z axis is really high compared to other AOE skills, so elevevation differences are more likely to cause a miss than for other AOEs. We actually did a lot of testing of that too, but I didn’t include it in the video since that’s more of an issue of the target not being inside of the AOE rather than the full dawnbreaker just cancelling. But it’s just as frustrating and we had a hard time differentiating that from bug #2