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Stam Dominates BGs
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Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SupremeRissole wrote: »No stam burst can combat a team of magplars.
Stam have mobility, burst, dawnbreakers and bleed.
Mag have range, resto ults, breath of life, purge, shields, aoe, ranged execute, ice comet.
I play both stam and mag and I have a much easier time in an all mag group than in an all stam group.
That’s true at a lower level of play, but definitely not true at a higher level of play. The Stam train’s DBoS will be up before the magplar gets remembrance again.
Not sure what an all Stam group is tho... all groups would need a magplar healer (or a magden healer if there’s a stamplar.. just need that purify).
And all of that is doubly true in No CP
PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PVP is at a point where stam is for killing and dealing damage, and mag is solely for support and healing roles. Mag is simply not viable for DD roles in PVP this patch.
well that’s just not true. I’ve just leveled a mag sorc and I’m doing just as well if not better than on my stamina characters. I actually feel I can output the same damage with a more varied tool kit and also have great survivability. Mag got a big damage boost this patch.1 -
Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My stamsorc gets wrecked since the update lol
Need to find the new way to play it1 -
Datolite✭✭✭✭✭Acceleration was a nice attempt to balance things out mobility-wise but stam still definitely has the upper hand there.0 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »Acceleration was a nice attempt to balance things out mobility-wise but stam still definitely has the upper hand there.
Stam has the upper hand mobility wise because of snare immunity not movement speed buffs5 -
ol_BANK_lo✭✭✭✭✭datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »Acceleration was a nice attempt to balance things out mobility-wise but stam still definitely has the upper hand there.
Stam has the upper hand mobility wise because of snare immunity not movement speed buffs
It depends how each person plays. My general observation is stam (which most run speed pots, and possibly medium armor) have ability to get around the map much more easily for domination, crazy king and capture the relic. Yes, sorcs and nightblades of options for speed. But it was in reference to my MagDK, and how I am always out of stam trying to get to these points and then get cc'd in a fight with no stam to break. Just an observation about the difficulties of certain mag toons in these "run around" game types.0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
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It’s not 0 resource cost. If you compare it to a tri-pot you lose 200+ “regen” of each stat. ~200 is the base return not even considering the regen modifier. You also lose access to spell/weapon crit as a potion effect.
There’s an opportunity cost, but in situations where you need the mobility(kiting, BGs) then they’re definitely king. However, just because you have them doesn’t mean you always have to use them, if a tri-pot or detect pot or immovable pot is more valuable in a specific scenario you can always just use one of them
It is a zero cost though lol. It's mildly disingenuous to compare the supposed "loss" of 100-200 mag/hp regen to 100% uptime on Major Expedition lol. And "cost" as I was referring to it would be an upfront resource expenditure or loss of a bar slot.
Also my man you didn't address the most important point I was trying to make which is that full uptime on (arguably) the best buff available in PvP completely negates the primary drawback that some builds are supposed to have. Melee builds already have a huge damage and utility advantage over ranged and slower mag builds, no need to exasperate the issue by keeping this unbalanced potion effect.2 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
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It’s not 0 resource cost. If you compare it to a tri-pot you lose 200+ “regen” of each stat. ~200 is the base return not even considering the regen modifier. You also lose access to spell/weapon crit as a potion effect.
There’s an opportunity cost, but in situations where you need the mobility(kiting, BGs) then they’re definitely king. However, just because you have them doesn’t mean you always have to use them, if a tri-pot or detect pot or immovable pot is more valuable in a specific scenario you can always just use one of them
It is a zero cost though lol. It's mildly disingenuous to compare the supposed "loss" of 100-200 mag/hp regen to 100% uptime on Major Expedition lol. And "cost" as I was referring to it would be an upfront resource expenditure or loss of a bar slot.
Also my man you didn't address the most important point I was trying to make which is that full uptime on (arguably) the best buff available in PvP completely negates the primary drawback that some builds are supposed to have. Melee builds already have a huge damage and utility advantage over ranged and slower mag builds, no need to exasperate the issue by keeping this unbalanced potion effect.
I understood your argument and it’s not totally wrong. However, there’s a lot of situations where a speed pot is not a good choice and using it will handicap you. Major Expedition is actually a virtually useless stand alone buff in a lot of situations. If you lack snare immunity and someone is applying a snare to you then it renders your speed buff irrelevant, even with snare immunity both poisons and gap closers can apply snares and roots to you that will negate your entire potion. On the other hand, a smart stamblade using speed pots and cloak can HARD counter some specs. In some BG game types mobility is required but we aren’t required to play those game types if we refuse to incorporate mobility into our build.
The strength of Major Expedition is wholly dependent on who you are fighting and what they have done with their build to counter it as well as how well your build can take advantage of Major Expedition.
I think it’s wrong to ignore opportunity cost as well, since it’s such a strong deciding factor for things in this game. There’s lots of skills I’d run if not for the opportunity cost of losing something else, the same is true for item sets, weapon glyphs/poisons, food, and potion decisions. You’re absolutely correct that there’s no upfront cost to pop a speed pot, but there is a present opportunity cost for using them which will keep them in balance.2 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
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It’s not 0 resource cost. If you compare it to a tri-pot you lose 200+ “regen” of each stat. ~200 is the base return not even considering the regen modifier. You also lose access to spell/weapon crit as a potion effect.
There’s an opportunity cost, but in situations where you need the mobility(kiting, BGs) then they’re definitely king. However, just because you have them doesn’t mean you always have to use them, if a tri-pot or detect pot or immovable pot is more valuable in a specific scenario you can always just use one of them
It is a zero cost though lol. It's mildly disingenuous to compare the supposed "loss" of 100-200 mag/hp regen to 100% uptime on Major Expedition lol. And "cost" as I was referring to it would be an upfront resource expenditure or loss of a bar slot.
Also my man you didn't address the most important point I was trying to make which is that full uptime on (arguably) the best buff available in PvP completely negates the primary drawback that some builds are supposed to have. Melee builds already have a huge damage and utility advantage over ranged and slower mag builds, no need to exasperate the issue by keeping this unbalanced potion effect.
I understood your argument and it’s not totally wrong. However, there’s a lot of situations where a speed pot is not a good choice and using it will handicap you. Major Expedition is actually a virtually useless stand alone buff in a lot of situations. If you lack snare immunity and someone is applying a snare to you then it renders your speed buff irrelevant, even with snare immunity both poisons and gap closers can apply snares and roots to you that will negate your entire potion. On the other hand, a smart stamblade using speed pots and cloak can HARD counter some specs. In some BG game types mobility is required but we aren’t required to play those game types if we refuse to incorporate mobility into our build.
The strength of Major Expedition is wholly dependent on who you are fighting and what they have done with their build to counter it as well as how well your build can take advantage of Major Expedition.
I think it’s wrong to ignore opportunity cost as well, since it’s such a strong deciding factor for things in this game. There’s lots of skills I’d run if not for the opportunity cost of losing something else, the same is true for item sets, weapon glyphs/poisons, food, and potion decisions. You’re absolutely correct that there’s no upfront cost to pop a speed pot, but there is a present opportunity cost for using them which will keep them in balance.
It seems we aren't in total opposition on this, because those are valid points. I'm not saying Major Expedition should be deleted from potion effects, but I think a ~50% uptime (after Medicinal Use) would be more appropriate.3 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Two things dominate BGs right now, Sloads and Stamina NBs. I swear if I q solo I go in with my team behind me and the get focused to hell because everyone else is stealthing and I’m he only visible one lol. It’s unreal. I couldn’t figure out what was happening for a couple matches and then it hit me. To the one team with players not in cloak, I’m the only guy standing there lol. My team and the third team are all stealthed.3 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Two things dominate BGs right now, Sloads and Stamina NBs. I swear if I q solo I go in with my team behind me and the get focused to hell because everyone else is stealthing and I’m he only visible one lol. It’s unreal. I couldn’t figure out what was happening for a couple matches and then it hit me. To the one team with players not in cloak, I’m the only guy standing there lol. My team and the third team are all stealthed.
So much this^Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Two things dominate BGs right now, Sloads and Stamina NBs. I swear if I q solo I go in with my team behind me and the get focused to hell because everyone else is stealthing and I’m he only visible one lol. It’s unreal. I couldn’t figure out what was happening for a couple matches and then it hit me. To the one team with players not in cloak, I’m the only guy standing there lol. My team and the third team are all stealthed.
stamnbs? maybe only if you queue as solo random, stamnb at all is useful only at solo gameplay as it have the wors synergy to group teamplay, stamnb is good to play solo random but as premades..I have never seen any successful premade with stamnb against other where was no stamnb
and this is simple thing which my friend told me his opinion:
stamnb have no utility to gamplay but is also puting disadvantage for rest of his team
why?
because staqmnb is squishy and mostly play with cloak, so as stamnb is mostly invisible then enemies splti their damage for only 3 opponents because 4th is invisible so more damage is comming to these 3 and this is making harder to heal it because its harder pressure, more damage at once into less targets0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Any movement speed buffs working while holding onto objectives is bad design IMO. Speed while carrying an objective should be the same across the board regardless of what your build is or gear set or whatever.
This is especially bad when movement speed can differ so much from one player to the next and the run between objectives are extremely short.
ZOS needs to poach a pvp dev from WoW or something to get these things sorted because they're getting so many extremely basic things wrong when it comes to balance in instanced pvp. Other games solved these problems years ago.
but I have then question to you..wouldnt it just force everyone to be tankly and begin again tank meta but on bg's?
maybe Imyself playing stamnb in medium with access to high speed but also often I see also mag classes like jsut magsorc with speedbufs catching relics and if you catch on of those builds (fast glass cannon) they have mostly no chance if you catch them and they will still try to escape instead of fight....but omw you have alco off skills like cloak or streak whiel carring relic so on of youre basic skill jsut to survive are also off
this what you said would just crate 100% tank meta for evey bg which will be again very stupid, boring and annyoing to fight with it
simple deatchmatches I suppose will be long for full match time and no any team will achieve even half of possible points to get becuse everyone will be in takly builds to survive as much as just can
Exactly. His suggestion is a lazy way out. If you build for speed, you should be fast. There is already a cap in place. And I don't see him arguing for a game mode mechanic that completetly nullifies all your input in damage and survivability so that everyone "should be the same across the board regardless of what your build is or gear set or whatever".0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭in the high MMR matches, mag seems to be pulling slightly ahead (for solo queuers anyway). having teams of people who understand how to work the 3-team dynamic is a different ballpark than the regular BGs where people just charge their nearest enemy. Range is a huge advantage.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭in the high MMR matches, mag seems to be pulling slightly ahead (for solo queuers anyway). having teams of people who understand how to work the 3-team dynamic is a different ballpark than the regular BGs where people just charge their nearest enemy. Range is a huge advantage.
Stam has damage. Mag has more group synergy. It make sense.
If I'm gonna be solo I prefer to be on my StamSorc which absolutely melts the faces off of people and still has a chance to escape via Streak. Unlike my StamBlade which gets Sloaded and AoE'd down in this patch.
But if I'm in a premade I'd rather be on Mag spec. Either MagSorc or MagBlade or MagDen. The latter two working better outside of death matches.
Edited by Maulkin on June 6, 2018 10:21AMEU | PC | AD2 -
del9✭✭✭✭in the high MMR matches, mag seems to be pulling slightly ahead (for solo queuers anyway). having teams of people who understand how to work the 3-team dynamic is a different ballpark than the regular BGs where people just charge their nearest enemy. Range is a huge advantage.
Yep I’ll reiterate my earlier post as it is becoming more true. Stam doesn’t dominate like it has in the past for those reasons. And aside from the playstyle/motivation changes, sorcs hit VERY hard now in no CP, and if they have a magblade buddy they can cut u down at range before you can say poopty peupty pants-sss. (While youre already engaged with a 3rd party)PCNA0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭in the high MMR matches, mag seems to be pulling slightly ahead (for solo queuers anyway). having teams of people who understand how to work the 3-team dynamic is a different ballpark than the regular BGs where people just charge their nearest enemy. Range is a huge advantage.
Yep I’ll reiterate my earlier post as it is becoming more true. Stam doesn’t dominate like it has in the past for those reasons. And aside from the playstyle/motivation changes, sorcs hit VERY hard now in no CP, and if they have a magblade buddy they can cut u down at range before you can say poopty peupty pants-sss. (While youre already engaged with a 3rd party)
I think I’m gonna respec my mag sorc back.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭in the high MMR matches, mag seems to be pulling slightly ahead (for solo queuers anyway). having teams of people who understand how to work the 3-team dynamic is a different ballpark than the regular BGs where people just charge their nearest enemy. Range is a huge advantage.
Stam has damage. Mag has more group synergy. It make sense.
If I'm gonna be solo I prefer to be on my StamSorc which absolutely melts the faces off of people and still has a chance to escape via Streak. Unlike my StamBlade which gets Sloaded and AoE'd down in this patch.
But if I'm in a premade I'd rather be on Mag spec. Either MagSorc or MagBlade or MagDen. The latter two working better outside of death matches.
Interesting. I’ve been primarily stamina since I started and have been recently playing mag sorc (and loving) and I prefer that solo. Specifically because I feel like I can assist pug group members with atro ult, rune cage from range if I see they’re getting pressured and of course mages wrath is the best execute in the game. Imo stamina is too much one and done these days. At least where classes like Stam Sorc, DK and warden are concerned. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion based on all the complaint threads about how stamina dominated things are, but imo magicka sorc at least trumps every other class I’ve played overall. So much burst, utility, mobility.Edited by Vapirko on June 9, 2018 6:43AM1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭in the high MMR matches, mag seems to be pulling slightly ahead (for solo queuers anyway). having teams of people who understand how to work the 3-team dynamic is a different ballpark than the regular BGs where people just charge their nearest enemy. Range is a huge advantage.
Stam has damage. Mag has more group synergy. It make sense.
If I'm gonna be solo I prefer to be on my StamSorc which absolutely melts the faces off of people and still has a chance to escape via Streak. Unlike my StamBlade which gets Sloaded and AoE'd down in this patch.
But if I'm in a premade I'd rather be on Mag spec. Either MagSorc or MagBlade or MagDen. The latter two working better outside of death matches.
Interesting. I’ve been primarily stamina since I started and have been recently playing mag sorc (and loving) and I prefer that solo. Specifically because I feel like I can assist pug group members with atro ult, rune cage from range if I see they’re getting pressured and of course mages wrath is the best execute in the game. Imo stamina is too much one and done these days. At least where classes like Stam Sorc, DK and warden are concerned. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion based on all the complaint threads about how stamina dominated things are, but imo magicka sorc at least trumps every other class I’ve played overall. So much burst, utility, mobility.
I guess we have to disagree then. I haven't had any problem with mag sorcs since forever, at least not when I'm not totally overwhelmed and focused by numbers. But same goes for other classes then. mS don't put as much debuffs on me I have to compensate as other classes do and in 1v1 they are probably the easiest to counter. But granted, I'm really lucky that only a few pulled that cage-curse-meteor nonsense on me. And for their mobility... You can literally run after them while they streak.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
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those pots are not without cost, the cheap ones that everyone is running don't give you back resources. in nCP, missing out on that is HUGE.
Though stamina can craft a major brutality, major expedition and major endurance pot, while magbuilds don't get any? #balance lol. But then again mag builds get a zero cost 300 per second resource return tool that gives major breach.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
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those pots are not without cost, the cheap ones that everyone is running don't give you back resources. in nCP, missing out on that is HUGE.
Though stamina can craft a major brutality, major expedition and major endurance pot, while magbuilds don't get any? #balance lol. But then again mag builds get a zero cost 300 per second resource return tool that gives major breach.
Speed pots are pretty expensive if you’re not a crafter, 100 of them is usually 21k plus. It adds up quick.
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VikingBerserker✭✭✭SupremeRissole wrote: »No stam burst can combat a team of magplars.
Stam have mobility, burst, dawnbreakers and bleed.
Mag have range, resto ults, breath of life, purge, shields, aoe, ranged execute, ice comet.
I play both stam and mag and I have a much easier time in an all mag group than in an all stam group.
That’s true at a lower level of play, but definitely not true at a higher level of play. The Stam train’s DBoS will be up before the magplar gets remembrance again.
Not sure what an all Stam group is tho... all groups would need a magplar healer (or a magden healer if there’s a stamplar.. just need that purify).
And all of that is doubly true in No CP
I've had good success with magblade and magdk as low as lv 20.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
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I feel like you would think that, when I see you in BGs you’re usualy spamming darkflare and soul assault. Speed pots and LOS don’t play nice with soul assault.Edited by Vapirko on June 14, 2018 1:51PM0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
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those pots are not without cost, the cheap ones that everyone is running don't give you back resources. in nCP, missing out on that is HUGE.
I played a stamDK for 3 hours in the BGs last night, giving these speed pots a go, and my experience matches that completely.
Not only do you lose the stam & mag resources you get from the tri-pot, but you lose out on Major Fortitude, Intellect and Endurance. It's pretty major. Overall it has a pretty major impact on your sustain in no-CP. People seem to forget snares and roots are ubiquitous and they cut your ability to move anyway.
If you run Forward Momentum and Speed DoTs then your only heals are Vigor and Battle Roar. You're the easiest kill with all this unavoidable damage and defiles. You'd need a dedicated healbot to keep you alive.
It's certainly not free.
Edited by Maulkin on June 14, 2018 2:06PMEU | PC | AD0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
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those pots are not without cost, the cheap ones that everyone is running don't give you back resources. in nCP, missing out on that is HUGE.
I played a stamDK for 3 hours in the BGs last night, giving these speed pots a go, and my experience matches that completely.
Not only do you lose the stam & mag resources you get from the tri-pot, but you lose out on Major Fortitude, Intellect and Endurance. It's pretty major. Overall it has a pretty major impact on your sustain in no-CP. People seem to forget snares and roots are ubiquitous and they cut your ability to move anyway.
If you run Forward Momentum and Speed DoTs then your only heals are Vigor and Battle Roar. You're the easiest kill with all this unavoidable damage and defiles. You'd need a dedicated healbot to keep you alive.
It's certainly not free.
You should still get major endurance if you’re using namiras root, blessed thistle and columbine.
I wouldn’t use speed pots on a stam dk though, they don’t really have a play style that compliments them unless you use dw.
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
those pots are not without cost, the cheap ones that everyone is running don't give you back resources. in nCP, missing out on that is HUGE.
I played a stamDK for 3 hours in the BGs last night, giving these speed pots a go, and my experience matches that completely.
Not only do you lose the stam & mag resources you get from the tri-pot, but you lose out on Major Fortitude, Intellect and Endurance. It's pretty major. Overall it has a pretty major impact on your sustain in no-CP. People seem to forget snares and roots are ubiquitous and they cut your ability to move anyway.
If you run Forward Momentum and Speed DoTs then your only heals are Vigor and Battle Roar. You're the easiest kill with all this unavoidable damage and defiles. You'd need a dedicated healbot to keep you alive.
It's certainly not free.
You should still get major endurance if you’re using namiras root, blessed thistle and columbine.
I wouldn’t use speed pots on a stam dk though, they don’t really have a play style that compliments them unless you use dw.
I was using lingering health and speed pots. Butterfly Wing, Blessed Thistle, and Scrib JellyEU | PC | AD0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »
those pots are not without cost, the cheap ones that everyone is running don't give you back resources. in nCP, missing out on that is HUGE.
I played a stamDK for 3 hours in the BGs last night, giving these speed pots a go, and my experience matches that completely.
Not only do you lose the stam & mag resources you get from the tri-pot, but you lose out on Major Fortitude, Intellect and Endurance. It's pretty major. Overall it has a pretty major impact on your sustain in no-CP. People seem to forget snares and roots are ubiquitous and they cut your ability to move anyway.
If you run Forward Momentum and Speed DoTs then your only heals are Vigor and Battle Roar. You're the easiest kill with all this unavoidable damage and defiles. You'd need a dedicated healbot to keep you alive.
It's certainly not free.
You should still get major endurance if you’re using namiras root, blessed thistle and columbine.
I wouldn’t use speed pots on a stam dk though, they don’t really have a play style that compliments them unless you use dw.
I was using lingering health and speed pots. Butterfly Wing, Blessed Thistle, and Scrib Jelly
Oh haven’t used those yet, was thinking of trying them on a Stam Sorc
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