Evolution

Prinseth

Are there any theory’s or proof concerning evolution in The Elder Scrolls?

VaranisArano

Like, what exactly do you mean by theory or proof?

I mean, its a fantasy world that has its own creation story. But you also have plenty of room for adaptations, even within the rather short time span of the games.

From the Merethic Era to Skyrim, we've only had 6,950 years, which is not a lot of time at all on an evolutionary timescale.

Prinseth

Like I wanted to know if anyone had any theory's about it, I know there’s a few about Kaliah in Skyrim because of her purple eyes. And also just if there’s any I’m game books that discuss the topic.

Gilvoth

you are talking about Evolution as in the living organisms that are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of Nirn?

if that is what you meant then the falmer is what comes to my mind being touched somewhat in Dwemer history and delves, but most of that is complete nonsence based on the downgrade in Lore by anything that came out of elderscrolls AFTER the release of morrowind.
and yes that includes expansions of morrowind because the creators of es titles were removed at that time and new management took over and destroyed its base.

although many today still see what they want to and glorify its false Lore.

PrayingSeraph

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

you are talking about Evolution as in the living organisms that are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of Nirn?

if that is what you meant then the falmer is what comes to my mind being touched somewhat in Dwemer history and delves, but most of that is complete nonsence based on the downgrade in Lore by anything that came out of elderscrolls AFTER the release of morrowind.
and yes that includes expansions of morrowind because the creators of es titles were removed at that time and new management took over and destroyed its base.

although many today still see what they want to and glorify its false Lore.

What? The lore was not destroyed or ruined after Morrowind...

gnarlyvandal

Just been doing the auridon main quests on an alt this morning and found a little tidbit:
Altmer are descendants of Auri-El, the god of creation (and something else), who in turn is a direct descendant of the Aedra. Many in Tamriel worship Auri-El as the god Akatosh.

Also *i think* dwemer (dwarves) evolved into the current different elf races over time. They were called dwarves because during their time they lived among giants. The giants descended into nords?

I vaguely remember dark elves have their colour thanks to a Daedric princes involvement, but I can’t remember the story.

gnarlyvandal

Prinseth wrote: »

Like I wanted to know if anyone had any theory's about it, I know there’s a few about Kaliah in Skyrim because of her purple eyes. And also just if there’s any I’m game books that discuss the topic.

I think there’s a lot of info you could find just by looking through google / an elder scrolls wiki

Varana

... What has one purple-eyed Dunmer to do with evolution?

There's plenty of change in the TES universe but it's usually explained by supernatural means, i.e. a god/daedra or beings of sufficiently godlike powers. It may be that those changes - or some of them - are only post-fact explanations of a natural process by the inhabitants of Tamriel who have no idea about evolution.

The Falmer are an interesting case because their change is said to have been brought about by working with "toxic fungi". That's not exactly a Daedric curse or something. We would call that process mutation, one of the most important factors for evolution. What's missing here is some form of selection for better adaptation; it's mostly just hereditary mutations. Although you could argue that it has led to a new species, different from what the Snow Elves once were. It's probably your best shot at an evolutionary process in the TES universe.

And then there's some "background evolution" - adaptation to specific living conditions. Isn't it nice that the Nords in their cold climate are cold resistant? That the Dunmer are fire-resistant in their land full of volcanoes where magma flows in the open? What a coincidence...

Tucker3711

Man + Mer = Breton

notimetocare

Tucker3711 wrote: »

Man + Mer = Breton

Interbreeding is not evolution technically

dodgehopper_ESO

Varana wrote: »

... What has one purple-eyed Dunmer to do with evolution?

There's plenty of change in the TES universe but it's usually explained by supernatural means, i.e. a god/daedra or beings of sufficiently godlike powers. It may be that those changes - or some of them - are only post-fact explanations of a natural process by the inhabitants of Tamriel who have no idea about evolution.

The Falmer are an interesting case because their change is said to have been brought about by working with "toxic fungi". That's not exactly a Daedric curse or something. We would call that process mutation, one of the most important factors for evolution. What's missing here is some form of selection for better adaptation; it's mostly just hereditary mutations. Although you could argue that it has led to a new species, different from what the Snow Elves once were. It's probably your best shot at an evolutionary process in the TES universe.

And then there's some "background evolution" - adaptation to specific living conditions. Isn't it nice that the Nords in their cold climate are cold resistant? That the Dunmer are fire-resistant in their land full of volcanoes where magma flows in the open? What a coincidence...

Nords apparently were resilient towards the cold in Atmora as well.

Marginis

A lot of the lore points to a mythological origin, but it is admittedly hard to parse history and legend within our limited frame. We can clearly tell that magic exists, and powerful beings do inhabit the world, but do the divines exist as sentient beings, or were the Orcs actually created by disfiguring a whole sect of Mer? Furthermore, we haven't yet really explored the supposed homeland of the Nords, or Redguards, for example, so we know surprisingly little of even those relatively recent origins.

We do know that "evolution", at least in the scientific sense of natural selection and mutation, has some role in the TES universe, but we have no real idea yet of how limited or exclusive it is to the "evolution", at least in a broader sense, or life there. I think it's best just to think of the TES world as like our own real world in the middle ages, but with real, tangible magic. So, just like we didn't know much then, we don't know much in TES. However, knowing what we do now, hundreds of years after the middle ages, we can understand that there's some role that scientific evolution played in the world, or some equivalent.

vegabondgamer

I believe Nirn only belonged to the Mer. For some reason Nirn became a habitable planet that many aliens coveted from far away star systems. Several species arrived to Nirn and all claimed it belonged to them. The Mer were thought of as primitives by the standards of space faring species.

At any rate the space aliens to the world of Nirn were the Humans, Sload, monkey people, Tsaesci, Argonians, Khajiti, Aedra and Daedra, ect... These space faring powers waged war in the heavens for control of Nirn and the Mer were simply in the way. In the end the world was devastated the Aedra barely won the conflict with the Daedra holding their own. The rest crashed landed on the planet in their respective starting localities. The Ayleid civilization was destroyed as a result.

Time moves on and the arrival of warring aliens was forgotten and the technology that the space aliens once had is no more. Except that of Magika of knowledge that got eroded over time. Only the Aedra and Daedra have some of their technology operating and this is how they were able to set themselves up to be gods on Nirn.

Marginis

vegabondgamer wrote: »

I believe Nirn only belonged to the Mer. For some reason Nirn became a habitable planet that many aliens coveted from far away star systems. Several species arrived to Nirn and all claimed it belonged to them. The Mer were thought of as primitives by the standards of space faring species.

At any rate the space aliens to the world of Nirn were the Humans, Sload, monkey people, Tsaesci, Argonians, Khajiti, Aedra and Daedra, ect... These space faring powers waged war in the heavens for control of Nirn and the Mer were simply in the way. In the end the world was devastated the Aedra barely won the conflict with the Daedra holding their own. The rest crashed landed on the planet in their respective starting localities. The Ayleid civilization was destroyed as a result.

Time moves on and the arrival of warring aliens was forgotten and the technology that the space aliens once had is no more. Except that of Magika of knowledge that got eroded over time. Only the Aedra and Daedra have some of their technology operating and this is how they were able to set themselves up to be gods on Nirn.

What

notimetocare

vegabondgamer wrote: »

I believe Nirn only belonged to the Mer. For some reason Nirn became a habitable planet that many aliens coveted from far away star systems. Several species arrived to Nirn and all claimed it belonged to them. The Mer were thought of as primitives by the standards of space faring species.

At any rate the space aliens to the world of Nirn were the Humans, Sload, monkey people, Tsaesci, Argonians, Khajiti, Aedra and Daedra, ect... These space faring powers waged war in the heavens for control of Nirn and the Mer were simply in the way. In the end the world was devastated the Aedra barely won the conflict with the Daedra holding their own. The rest crashed landed on the planet in their respective starting localities. The Ayleid civilization was destroyed as a result.

Time moves on and the arrival of warring aliens was forgotten and the technology that the space aliens once had is no more. Except that of Magika of knowledge that got eroded over time. Only the Aedra and Daedra have some of their technology operating and this is how they were able to set themselves up to be gods on Nirn.

Good thing those nonsense is false.

CHIMCHIMCheree

Cats of Skyrim mentions that Sabercats have "evolved two dangerously sharp front teeth".

The way that genetics behave are touched on in Racial Phylogeny which notes that "the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present".

The Nirnroot Missive describes how Nirnroot "sensed impending extinction and therefore changed its own nature to survive" and that "the Nirnroot has accomplished in a relatively short amount of time what it would take other species millions of years to complete." suggesting that this is an anomaly compared to what sounds like a normal evolutionary process.

Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi describes in mythological terms, a divergence between the Khajiit and Bosmer races.

So there's some kind of evolution, but it doesn't function as it does in the real world. I think there's about 6000 years of recorded history. Prior to that, everything is a bit timey-wimey. In addition to that, a number of divine forces have conducted themselves in a way which was not consistent with linear time. Even given that, that's a very short period for a process Sinderion expects to take millions of years (maybe an oversight).

Varana

vegabondgamer wrote: »

For some reason Nirn became a habitable planet that many aliens coveted from far away star systems. ... space aliens ...

You got your game worlds mixed up. You're talking about Wizardry.

vegabondgamer

Science and wizardry are two words to describe the same idea. Wizardry just mean's that people are unable to explain the science behind the magic. It's the Aedar and Daedra fault. Their technology transcended the boundary of space time. In the ensuing conflict of space tech vs. space tech the knowledge was gifted to the world of Nirn to become what is now Magika. Lorkan might of been the last of the Aedra that knew this, maybe not. The survivors of that cataclysm simply regressed in technology and knowledge to the only tech available. That of the Ayleids middle age.

Nano probes are what infest everything on nirn and this makes magic possible. Yet there are no scientists on Nirn so everyone is limited to craft of witches and wizards in how to understand these gifts. The only civilization that almost discovered the real forgotten secret was the Dwemer. For this they were removed from time space.

For Nirn is a Hallow world. Don't forget Auriel's bow lets you turn off the sun.

Prinseth

vegabondgamer wrote: »

Science and wizardry are two words to describe the same idea. Wizardry just mean's that people are unable to explain the science behind the magic. It's the Aedar and Daedra fault. Their technology transcended the boundary of space time. In the ensuing conflict of space tech vs. space tech the knowledge was gifted to the world of Nirn to become what is now Magika. Lorkan might of been the last of the Aedra that knew this, maybe not. The survivors of that cataclysm simply regressed in technology and knowledge to the only tech available. That of the Ayleids middle age.

Nano probes are what infest everything on nirn and this makes magic possible. Yet there are no scientists on Nirn so everyone is limited to craft of witches and wizards in how to understand these gifts. The only civilization that almost discovered the real forgotten secret was the Dwemer. For this they were removed from time space.

Skooma hit pretty hard, huh?

Varana

Wizardry, you youngster.
And skooma, yes, definitely skooma.

AgmarTheUnrestful

CHIMCHIMCheree wrote: »

[...]timey-wimey.

Nice Dr. Who reference. British? Or just simply a fan?

vegabondgamer

Mostly I was reading the lore in Skyrim and even though it's all covered in fantasy of sword play. Reading between the lines you can consider the creation story of Nirn like a early space saga. Of friendly and warring space fleets creating, building and fighting over Nirn and shaping it in that process. For instance Lorkan could be a ship. The hart of Lorkan is it's fusion reactor which became the Red Mountain.

Most of what I read in the lore just made me remember an old pc game "Enemy Nations." Where you chose an alien colony ship and started to build a city and defend it from enemy aliens trying to claim the planet as their own.

That's where I made up my take on what's going on with Nirn.

AgmarTheUnrestful

@vegabondgamer: First of all, I wasn't talking to you. Learn to read. Second of all, magic is very real: I, myself, am a specialist in Restoration magic. I really have been able to heal my wounds by focusing my mind. You and all the other blasphemers scientists need to get over yourselves and learn to use your brains for something constructive, instead of poking needles into people, getting them addicted to drugs, and cutting people up and sewing them back together like a blanket. And, no, it is no more morally correct to experiment on dead or dying corpses than it is living persons.

vegabondgamer

Darn I was hoping for a good conversation about TES lore and how the Dovahnaught can be in space?

CHIMCHIMCheree

AgmarTheUnrestful wrote: »

CHIMCHIMCheree wrote: »

[...]timey-wimey.

Nice Dr. Who reference. British? Or just simply a fan?

Yeah, I'm not interested in engaging with you based on your response to @vegabondgamer.

Varana

vegabondgamer wrote: »

Reading between the lines you can consider the creation story of Nirn like a early space saga.

To be fair, though, you can do that with basically all of Fantasy. Or real-life myth, for that matter.
The Sumerian gods being aliens from another planet has spawned a whole pseudo-history ripping off millions of gullible readers (as well as an epic Running Wild song). I once read a novel that re-interpreted Jesus as a well-intentioned but rather naive space traveller caught in the mire of a "primitive" planet's politics.

So I'm sure you can do that with Nirn, as well. Would be fun to read that as in-game speculation from some excentric philosopher.

Ajaxandriel

vegabondgamer wrote: »

I believe Nirn only belonged to the Mer. For some reason Nirn became a habitable planet that many aliens coveted from far away star systems. Several species arrived to Nirn and all claimed it belonged to them. The Mer were thought of as primitives by the standards of space faring species.

At any rate the space aliens to the world of Nirn were the Humans, Sload, monkey people, Tsaesci, Argonians, Khajiti, Aedra and Daedra, ect... These space faring powers waged war in the heavens for control of Nirn and the Mer were simply in the way. In the end the world was devastated the Aedra barely won the conflict with the Daedra holding their own. The rest crashed landed on the planet in their respective starting localities. The Ayleid civilization was destroyed as a result.

Time moves on and the arrival of warring aliens was forgotten and the technology that the space aliens once had is no more. Except that of Magika of knowledge that got eroded over time. Only the Aedra and Daedra have some of their technology operating and this is how they were able to set themselves up to be gods on Nirn.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic eh ?

Then any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from divinity

It's an interesting theory but the timeline has to be consistent :
It would have worked better if you suppose that the Dawn Era was the Terraforming phase of Nirn
The Ayleids lived way after the Dawn Era so...

And the Mer would be one of the alien races obviously - if Aedra were techno-gods, then their descent (Mer) is what remains now

So the et'Ada would be literal starship-settlers, metaphorically associated with stars later (magna Ge)

And Aetherius, a big universal afterlife matrix?
And Oblivion, its system vulnerability?
And the Daedra, a huge virus in it?

Well...
I still prefer my own headcanon : the races of Nirn are aboriginal and evolved their way, and the gods are mere illusions of faith based on powerful ancestors (as explained by the Old Ways / Euhemeros irl)
For some reason the magics are a thing in that world so the might of wording / telling made the myth this powerful.

As my bosmer spinner would say : Any sufficiently advanced lie (Tale) is indistinguishable from Reality