Siege is swinging back to being way too strong

Recremen

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Recremen

Are Trebs able to fire out of Catapults max effective range?

@Avran_Sylt

I think on a perfectly flat surface that's a yes, but it's going to greatly depend on the exact terrain features you're sieging/being sieged from.

NyassaV

I actually like where siege is in terms of damage on live. I do not mind additional mechanics but I want the damage to be the same TBH

Koolio

Delsskia wrote: »

I was with Mendo (the OP) testing and I agree with everything he said in his very well thought out post. One thing he forgot to mention, along with the increased initial damage, ground based aoe left behind, unpurgeable dots ticking and the same siege stacking its dots... defenders can now have as many as 30 siege doing that and the damage still increases with Thaumaturge.

Personally I love that anti-personal siege are now meaningful, but our testing showed them to be too powerful. I really don't think that anything major is needed to bring them in line, just reduce the initial damage and dot damage by about 50% and disable the same siege stacking dots. (by making the ground based aoe persistence sync with the firing cooldown of the siege weapon)

Great post Mendo.

uh. Lulz.

usmguy1234

I am super glad this is a thing now. The only problem now is the fact that an entire alliance can stack in a keep to keep emp. It's going to be next to impossible to overthrow an emp now. They need to increase that number to at least 2-3 so it will cause the emp alliance to spread out.

Avran_Sylt

@Recremen

Well, at the very least, Max Ground Range Trebs shouldn't be able to be hit by Max Wall Range Catapults, (assuming flat ground of course).

Then the balance is that of proper attacker positioning of siege equipment.

DeadlyRecluse

Koolio wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Vicious death, skoria, spinners. Siege for daaaays.

You should try Sellistrix on an oil or cold fire ballista. It’s awesome.

Spinners effects seige as well?

I'm not sure if it affects siege, but I believe it affects VD/Skoria procs.

Koolio

usmguy1234 wrote: »

I am super glad this is a thing now. The only problem now is the fact that an entire alliance can stack in a keep to keep emp. It's going to be next to impossible to overthrow an emp now. They need to increase that number to at least 2-3 so it will cause the emp alliance to spread out.

I curious to how the scrolls beinh worth 10 points will effect this. Hard to tell without implementing it first. Anyone interested in the campaign scoring will be at that gate trying to keep the scroll. This is where my group will be all the time. Unless one of us is emperor. Which isn’t often.

Wuuffyy

Lol siege complaints.... so done

ToRelax

Honestly, this new siege sounds pretty good to me. Never had an issue with siege before, either.
What I would want to see addressed most about large scale combat, outside of sets and skills, would be rezzing... if sieges make it impossible to survive on a flag and thus force you to wipe out the siegers, doing so should last a little longer than the time it takes to run back to the flag.

Lord_Sando

Aztlan wrote: »

Your piece is very well thought out, but I too like the general direction of making anti-personnel siege more effective. Maybe it's too much, as you say, and an adjustment will have to be made.

Here's a scenario, though, that I've seen far too often. A highly organized and effective ball group, with a lot of healers and purgers--let's just call them Dracarys, shall we?--sieges Faregyl front door. AD responds quickly with about an equal number of defenders and puts down defensive siege, but it barely slows them down at all. Drac then enters the keep and proceeds to troll the entire faction by circling the walltops and occasionally sweeping the courtyard, unphased by whatever kind of siege they are hit with, until AD finally musters an overwhelming force of 4 times their number to force them out. Then if they're feeling frisky, they'll do the same thing 15 minutes later. Meanwhile, all the other lower keeps are yellow. This is very frustrating.

The point is, keeps should be easier to defend with siege than they currently are. No sieging force, however well organized, should be able to basically ignore anti-personnel siege and easily force their way into defended keeps unless they bring something like a 2-to-1 numerical advantage.

So much truth to this. iam interested to see how the new siege will fare in cp campaigns. I fear for the NO CP campaigns.

usmcjdking

I gladly welcome this change.

Twohothardware

Siege and Guards both needed a big buff in damage and changes in mechanics. It's too hard to counter these 24 player Zergs when all it takes is a healer or two and they can stand right in the middle of numerous siege hitting them. Defeats the point in even having it. Siege should at least deal the same damage in CP Campaigns as it does in No CP.

Delsskia

Wow, so much misunderstanding in here.

Fantasia regularly goes up against numbers 3 and 4 times ours. Often, that happens in keeps where we have a dozen or more siege firing on us. I can say, in no uncertain terms, that requires a hell of a lot more than just 1 or 2 healers. We very specifically maintain our group comp and roles and our individual builds are made, again very specifically, for that type of fighting. Drac survives that because they are specifically set up to survive it just like we are. (though their builds are a little different from ours)

A very disciplined and strong group, like Drac, will still be very difficult to kill with the new siege buffs... At least as compared most other groups who will just utterly melt in seconds.

When Mendo and others say that the siege buffs are too strong, we aren't necessarily offering that from the point of view of how it will affect our own guild. We'll deal with it just fine after a few changes in tactics. So will all of the really strong guild groups. But we don't comprise the majority of Cyrodiil. Most players will be completely overwhelmed, newish players will probably get completely turned off to ESO PvP and Non-CP Campaigns will suffer horribly.

Please, when considering these changes, don't use defending against the best groups you can think of to justify them. Think of the majority and what it will do to them.

s7732425ub17_ESO

They need to drastically reduce the time of the DOT and lower the radius by 2 meters or so. I wouldn't mind the initial hit having a very large radius and then the dot being slightly smaller.

schattenkind

Maybe just give it some days on live and discuss then again?
If its about damage amount, this is easily changed with the weekly patches. No need to nerf already what has not being tested properly yet. Testing on pts is not testing in live environment with so many more variables adding up...

Concerning groups I suggest 1% ulti cost increase and 1% healing received decrease per group member. Encourage smaller groups instead of 24 man zerg runs.. but thats an other topic.

ToRelax

Delsskia wrote: »

Wow, so much misunderstanding in here.

Fantasia regularly goes up against numbers 3 and 4 times ours. Often, that happens in keeps where we have a dozen or more siege firing on us. I can say, in no uncertain terms, that requires a hell of a lot more than just 1 or 2 healers. We very specifically maintain our group comp and roles and our individual builds are made, again very specifically, for that type of fighting. Drac survives that because they are specifically set up to survive it just like we are. (though their builds are a little different from ours)

A very disciplined and strong group, like Drac, will still be very difficult to kill with the new siege buffs... At least as compared most other groups who will just utterly melt in seconds.

When Mendo and others say that the siege buffs are too strong, we aren't necessarily offering that from the point of view of how it will affect our own guild. We'll deal with it just fine after a few changes in tactics. So will all of the really strong guild groups. But we don't comprise the majority of Cyrodiil. Most players will be completely overwhelmed, newish players will probably get completely turned off to ESO PvP and Non-CP Campaigns will suffer horribly.

Please, when considering these changes, don't use defending against the best groups you can think of to justify them. Think of the majority and what it will do to them.

That's a load of crap.
New players always got used to siege being extremely strong when it was so; new players get disouraged if they fight an enemy they have no chance of winning against, not by often avoidable red circles they can use themselves just as well.

TequilaFire

It is about time they made siege actually worth using against zergs with healbots.
Way too many times have I watched players stand in siege and just heal and dance through it.
Now a small group or single player has another tool against the masses zerging them down.

Recremen

ToRelax wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

Wow, so much misunderstanding in here.

Fantasia regularly goes up against numbers 3 and 4 times ours. Often, that happens in keeps where we have a dozen or more siege firing on us. I can say, in no uncertain terms, that requires a hell of a lot more than just 1 or 2 healers. We very specifically maintain our group comp and roles and our individual builds are made, again very specifically, for that type of fighting. Drac survives that because they are specifically set up to survive it just like we are. (though their builds are a little different from ours)

A very disciplined and strong group, like Drac, will still be very difficult to kill with the new siege buffs... At least as compared most other groups who will just utterly melt in seconds.

When Mendo and others say that the siege buffs are too strong, we aren't necessarily offering that from the point of view of how it will affect our own guild. We'll deal with it just fine after a few changes in tactics. So will all of the really strong guild groups. But we don't comprise the majority of Cyrodiil. Most players will be completely overwhelmed, newish players will probably get completely turned off to ESO PvP and Non-CP Campaigns will suffer horribly.

Please, when considering these changes, don't use defending against the best groups you can think of to justify them. Think of the majority and what it will do to them.

That's a load of crap.
New players always got used to siege being extremely strong when it was so; new players get disouraged if they fight an enemy they have no chance of winning against, not by often avoidable red circles they can use themselves just as well.

@ToRelax

Actually new players didn't get used to siege when it was extremely strong, they have repeatedly walked back the strength of siege whenever it's been buffed like this due to player demand.

TequilaFire

Yes they caved to players who can't roll out of the red demands.
But since then the more tanky meta and CP mitigation power creep has come to PvP and needs a counter.

Recremen

TequilaFire wrote: »

Yes they caved to players who can't roll out of the red demands.
But since then the more tanky meta and CP mitigation power creep has come to PvP and needs a counter.

@TequilaFire

Actually this happened as recently as last year, when the CP mitigation power creep was already in full swing. Overstrong siege only increased zerging because you needed more people to reliably take a keep. If you want a way to fight organized groups, try joining an organized group.

TequilaFire

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Yes they caved to players who can't roll out of the red demands.
But since then the more tanky meta and CP mitigation power creep has come to PvP and needs a counter.

@TequilaFire

Actually this happened as recently as last year, when the CP mitigation power creep was already in full swing. Overstrong siege only increased zerging because you needed more people to reliably take a keep. If you want a way to fight organized groups, try joining an organized group.

FYI I PvP with one of the best guilds on PS4 NA Vivec.
It is a good thing that keep defense is upped as it is now without alliance lock out the underdog alliances need all the help they can get because all the transalliance ap farmers jump to one side. It was a mistake to lower siege damage and I am glad the devs realized it and adjusted. So just pay attention and you will be fine.

usmguy1234

I would even argue that we need a few banner guards like the ones that roam imp city stationed around the keep. It would be hilarious.

Lord_Sando

schattenkind wrote: »

Maybe just give it some days on live and discuss then again?
If its about damage amount, this is easily changed with the weekly patches. No need to nerf already what has not being tested properly yet. Testing on pts is not testing in live environment with so many more variables adding up...

Concerning groups I suggest 1% ulti cost increase and 1% healing received decrease per group member. Encourage smaller groups instead of 24 man zerg runs.. but thats an other topic.

This is a great idea.

Nightfall12

So how effective are the ballistas at taking out these newly buffed Catapults? Didn't they make that their primary function now?

ToRelax

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

Wow, so much misunderstanding in here.

Fantasia regularly goes up against numbers 3 and 4 times ours. Often, that happens in keeps where we have a dozen or more siege firing on us. I can say, in no uncertain terms, that requires a hell of a lot more than just 1 or 2 healers. We very specifically maintain our group comp and roles and our individual builds are made, again very specifically, for that type of fighting. Drac survives that because they are specifically set up to survive it just like we are. (though their builds are a little different from ours)

A very disciplined and strong group, like Drac, will still be very difficult to kill with the new siege buffs... At least as compared most other groups who will just utterly melt in seconds.

When Mendo and others say that the siege buffs are too strong, we aren't necessarily offering that from the point of view of how it will affect our own guild. We'll deal with it just fine after a few changes in tactics. So will all of the really strong guild groups. But we don't comprise the majority of Cyrodiil. Most players will be completely overwhelmed, newish players will probably get completely turned off to ESO PvP and Non-CP Campaigns will suffer horribly.

Please, when considering these changes, don't use defending against the best groups you can think of to justify them. Think of the majority and what it will do to them.

That's a load of crap.
New players always got used to siege being extremely strong when it was so; new players get disouraged if they fight an enemy they have no chance of winning against, not by often avoidable red circles they can use themselves just as well.

ToRelax

Actually new players didn't get used to siege when it was extremely strong, they have repeatedly walked back the strength of siege whenever it's been buffed like this due to player demand.

Siege doesn't keep up with the power creep on player skills and they went back on the unpurgeable stuff before it was actually implemented iirc - meaning it wasn't new players who complained about it. In fact, new players used to be used to much more lethal siege than veterans when leaving the <50 campaign due to lack of purges, lower stats and the ease of reaching maximum effectiveness with siege weapons compared to players skills.
The only siege I remember giving new players trouble was ground oils... because that still required you to get close to the enemy.
You are saying this change somehow hurts new players, but so far you don't offer any arguments to support that claim.

Joy_Division

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

Wow, so much misunderstanding in here.

Fantasia regularly goes up against numbers 3 and 4 times ours. Often, that happens in keeps where we have a dozen or more siege firing on us. I can say, in no uncertain terms, that requires a hell of a lot more than just 1 or 2 healers. We very specifically maintain our group comp and roles and our individual builds are made, again very specifically, for that type of fighting. Drac survives that because they are specifically set up to survive it just like we are. (though their builds are a little different from ours)

A very disciplined and strong group, like Drac, will still be very difficult to kill with the new siege buffs... At least as compared most other groups who will just utterly melt in seconds.

When Mendo and others say that the siege buffs are too strong, we aren't necessarily offering that from the point of view of how it will affect our own guild. We'll deal with it just fine after a few changes in tactics. So will all of the really strong guild groups. But we don't comprise the majority of Cyrodiil. Most players will be completely overwhelmed, newish players will probably get completely turned off to ESO PvP and Non-CP Campaigns will suffer horribly.

Please, when considering these changes, don't use defending against the best groups you can think of to justify them. Think of the majority and what it will do to them.

That's a load of crap.
New players always got used to siege being extremely strong when it was so; new players get disouraged if they fight an enemy they have no chance of winning against, not by often avoidable red circles they can use themselves just as well.

ToRelax

Actually new players didn't get used to siege when it was extremely strong, they have repeatedly walked back the strength of siege whenever it's been buffed like this due to player demand.

Siege doesn't keep up with the power creep on player skills and they went back on the unpurgeable stuff before it was actually implemented iirc - meaning it wasn't new players who complained about it. In fact, new players used to be used to much more lethal siege than veterans when leaving the <50 campaign due to lack of purges, lower stats and the ease of reaching maximum effectiveness with siege weapons compared to players skills.
The only siege I remember giving new players trouble was ground oils... because that still required you to get close to the enemy.
You are saying this change somehow hurts new players, but so far you don't offer any arguments to support that claim.

Just wait until the PvP double XP event comes around and watch how the lemmings will melt while standing under oil and by counter-siege fire.

Recremen

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

Wow, so much misunderstanding in here.

Fantasia regularly goes up against numbers 3 and 4 times ours. Often, that happens in keeps where we have a dozen or more siege firing on us. I can say, in no uncertain terms, that requires a hell of a lot more than just 1 or 2 healers. We very specifically maintain our group comp and roles and our individual builds are made, again very specifically, for that type of fighting. Drac survives that because they are specifically set up to survive it just like we are. (though their builds are a little different from ours)

A very disciplined and strong group, like Drac, will still be very difficult to kill with the new siege buffs... At least as compared most other groups who will just utterly melt in seconds.

When Mendo and others say that the siege buffs are too strong, we aren't necessarily offering that from the point of view of how it will affect our own guild. We'll deal with it just fine after a few changes in tactics. So will all of the really strong guild groups. But we don't comprise the majority of Cyrodiil. Most players will be completely overwhelmed, newish players will probably get completely turned off to ESO PvP and Non-CP Campaigns will suffer horribly.

Please, when considering these changes, don't use defending against the best groups you can think of to justify them. Think of the majority and what it will do to them.

That's a load of crap.
New players always got used to siege being extremely strong when it was so; new players get disouraged if they fight an enemy they have no chance of winning against, not by often avoidable red circles they can use themselves just as well.

ToRelax

Actually new players didn't get used to siege when it was extremely strong, they have repeatedly walked back the strength of siege whenever it's been buffed like this due to player demand.

Siege doesn't keep up with the power creep on player skills and they went back on the unpurgeable stuff before it was actually implemented iirc - meaning it wasn't new players who complained about it. In fact, new players used to be used to much more lethal siege than veterans when leaving the <50 campaign due to lack of purges, lower stats and the ease of reaching maximum effectiveness with siege weapons compared to players skills.
The only siege I remember giving new players trouble was ground oils... because that still required you to get close to the enemy.
You are saying this change somehow hurts new players, but so far you don't offer any arguments to support that claim.

@ToRelax no, the other poster made the argument that this hurts new players, try to keep track.

But sure I'll play. First, you claim that new players are getting used to worse conditions in the <50 campaign. That's demonstrably false, that campaign is constantly at one bar population. Second, you say siege doesn't level up with power creep. It doesn't need to. The power creep is tiny by design, and the creep gets smaller and smaller the longer it "creeps" due to the diminishing returns. But finally, and more to the point, I said that new players didn't get used to strong siege because they've consistently walked back the strength. That is still a true thing you never refuted, you just moved the goalposts.

ToRelax

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Delsskia wrote: »

Wow, so much misunderstanding in here.

Fantasia regularly goes up against numbers 3 and 4 times ours. Often, that happens in keeps where we have a dozen or more siege firing on us. I can say, in no uncertain terms, that requires a hell of a lot more than just 1 or 2 healers. We very specifically maintain our group comp and roles and our individual builds are made, again very specifically, for that type of fighting. Drac survives that because they are specifically set up to survive it just like we are. (though their builds are a little different from ours)

A very disciplined and strong group, like Drac, will still be very difficult to kill with the new siege buffs... At least as compared most other groups who will just utterly melt in seconds.

When Mendo and others say that the siege buffs are too strong, we aren't necessarily offering that from the point of view of how it will affect our own guild. We'll deal with it just fine after a few changes in tactics. So will all of the really strong guild groups. But we don't comprise the majority of Cyrodiil. Most players will be completely overwhelmed, newish players will probably get completely turned off to ESO PvP and Non-CP Campaigns will suffer horribly.

Please, when considering these changes, don't use defending against the best groups you can think of to justify them. Think of the majority and what it will do to them.

That's a load of crap.
New players always got used to siege being extremely strong when it was so; new players get disouraged if they fight an enemy they have no chance of winning against, not by often avoidable red circles they can use themselves just as well.

ToRelax

Actually new players didn't get used to siege when it was extremely strong, they have repeatedly walked back the strength of siege whenever it's been buffed like this due to player demand.

Siege doesn't keep up with the power creep on player skills and they went back on the unpurgeable stuff before it was actually implemented iirc - meaning it wasn't new players who complained about it. In fact, new players used to be used to much more lethal siege than veterans when leaving the <50 campaign due to lack of purges, lower stats and the ease of reaching maximum effectiveness with siege weapons compared to players skills.
The only siege I remember giving new players trouble was ground oils... because that still required you to get close to the enemy.
You are saying this change somehow hurts new players, but so far you don't offer any arguments to support that claim.

ToRelax no, the other poster made the argument that this hurts new players, try to keep track.

But sure I'll play. First, you claim that new players are getting used to worse conditions in the <50 campaign. That's demonstrably false, that campaign is constantly at one bar population. Second, you say siege doesn't level up with power creep. It doesn't need to. The power creep is tiny by design, and the creep gets smaller and smaller the longer it "creeps" due to the diminishing returns. But finally, and more to the point, I said that new players didn't get used to strong siege because they've consistently walked back the strength. That is still a true thing you never refuted, you just moved the goalposts.

I've talked about the past - siege was very effective in under 50, I imagine less so now but haven't been there for a long time. Players got used to it and then found out that siege wasn't very effective in other campaigns.
Power creep is accumulating; we aren't getting a siege buff every update, either. This was the point I made: Siege has been buffed several times without being nerfed soon afterwards, unlike, as you suggested, being nerfed several times as a consequence of player feedback after it had been buffed.

schattenkind

Maybe this will open up some new tactical possibilities, when ppl are forced to split and attack from several sides rather than just collectively attack the MG or just one side as mostly is now. Might make all this more interesting than flipping keeps in 10 mins interval.

And I dont think it will hurt new players more than others. After a few deaths they will learn how this works, some will avoid, others will die again. But that is what you see already. New players have by far more other issues to struggle with.