Marksman’s vs Automaton: Which gives more Damage?

Vaoh

So the point here is really to understand just how much damage the 8% Bow Attack Damage 5-piece is vs Automaton’s 400 Physical Dmg 5-piece.

Set aside the obvious differences of 2-4 piece set bonuses and niche uses of each set.

Purely looking at the 5-piece bonuses, I’d like to know which one actually provides more damage for an attack such as Magnum Shot. I understand that a lot of different things contribute to this. I’m really just trying to understanding if they are both close enough to where certain buffs push one set past the other or if there is a pretty wide dmg gap between them.

Ty!

Checkmath

I think the answer for your questions is not really about numbers tough, rather about for what you want to use the set. If you use many bow skills marksman will be better, meanwhile automaton wont add damage to the skills like poison injection or lethal arrow, since both arent physical damage. Additionally i would like to know your class, since automaton works differently for the different classes.

killimandrosb16_ESO

for a bow build marksman is better, I leave to @DDuke to do the maths

raasdal

Well... That is absolutely impossible to say for sure, without having the base numbers. The higher your Stats are before the 5pc the better will Marksman perform in a comparison. Opposite, the lower your Stats before the 5pc, the better will Automaton be. BUT i have done many of these comparisons before, so i will share a bit;

For reference, last time i did a comparison like this, my findings was that 179 SP/WD was roughly equivalent for 3.5% damage increase, with Major Sorcery / Brutality up. If i recall correctly, this was on a roughly 5000 Combined Power NO CP Character.

So if you have like 30000 Stam and 2000 WD (5K Combined Power), i would guess that Automaton would be equivalent of roughly 8% Damage increase, thereby putting it right on the money in terms of balance with Marksman.

So to answer your question; Yes they are so close, that certain buffs, rotations or something else, will put one ahead of the other.

Vaoh

raasdal wrote: »

Well... That is absolutely impossible to say for sure, without having the base numbers. The higher your Stats are before the 5pc the better will Marksman perform in a comparison. Opposite, the lower your Stats before the 5pc, the better will Automaton be. BUT i have done many of these comparisons before, so i will share a bit;

For reference, last time i did a comparison like this, my findings was that 179 SP/WD was roughly equivalent for 3.5% damage increase, with Major Sorcery / Brutality up. If i recall correctly, this was on a roughly 5000 Combined Power NO CP Character.

So if you have like 30000 Stam and 2000 WD (5K Combined Power), i would guess that Automaton would be equivalent of roughly 8% Damage increase, thereby putting it right on the money in terms of balance with Marksman.

So to answer your question; Yes they are so close, that certain buffs, rotations or something else, will put one ahead of the other.

Very good info. Ty!

Vaoh

Checkmath wrote: »

I think the answer for your questions is not really about numbers tough, rather about for what you want to use the set. If you use many bow skills marksman will be better, meanwhile automaton wont add damage to the skills like poison injection or lethal arrow, since both arent physical damage. Additionally i would like to know your class, since automaton works differently for the different classes.

Well yeah ofc the build/skills slotted/playstyle itself will be a huge factor. Like I said though, I’m trying to get an idea of purely just the effectiveness of each set though in terms of *just numbers*.

For example, if we take Hunding’s vs Automaton, Automaton would make a skill like Magnum Shot deal more damage every time. It’s easy to tell since the Weapon Damage bonus is literally larger.

However, Marksman’s will give a % damage increase. I was hoping there was someone who had tested enough to really understand which set grants a bigger bonus. I want to have an idea of if one set grants more damage to Magnum Shot in scenarios where they are both useable, or if they are pretty much even and only slightly differ based on buffs/stats.

It’s kind of weird to ask what I’m asking but yeah lol, I strictly care just for the damage values, not build viability.

SodanTok

Adding 400 damage to a 'average' build of 3k wd 30k stam would be roughly 9% more damage.

Adding marksman to a build that has 30% more damage from CP (20 direct, 10 physical) would be 6% more damage.
Adding it to same build but one that also has own minor berserk, made enemy off balances (for the 10% damage CP), stacked all stacks of hawk eye (25% bow damage) would be ~4.5%

Lexxypwns

At 6001 effective weapon power(using the uesp formula) before the addition of the 5pc marksman will always be more damage on a physical bow skill than automaton.

100/8= 12.5
12.5*480=6000

Edit: assuming the tooltip is accurate for marksman

Thogard

How many bow skills would be affected by automaton though?

Lethal arrow is disease dmg IIRC. Poison injection is poison...

Lexxypwns

Thogard wrote: »

How many bow skills would be affected by automaton though?

Lethal arrow is disease dmg IIRC. Poison injection is poison...

Magnum shot
Bombard
Focused aim
Ballista

My guess is he’s looking at an Asylum build using those 4 skills

Asardes

I wouldn't use bow with Automaton, since some of the skills are not physical, but poison. For example Acid Spray, Poison Injection and Lethal Arrow are entirely poison damage and those will not be affected by Automaton at all; only Focused Aim and Bombard will be buffed, but in PvP people usually pick the former morphs for the defile and DoTs. But Automaton will buff your light and heavy attacks, since they are physical. Depending on your stats, the 400 weapon damage will be somewhere around 5-7% of your damage. But Marksman doesn't have maximum stamina or weapon critical bonuses, so, strictly considering physical damage, Automaton will come slightly ahead. However Marksman has cost reduction and recovery, which are better in PvP.

DDuke

Automaton is more damage, around 3-4% or so.

Problem with Marksman (and Hawk Eye) 5p is that it gets bundled up with your CPs & other percentage modifiers, so it winds up being less than 8% (i.e. it doesn't buff your already buffed dmg, but your base dmg).


That said, Marksman is a fantastic set for sustain & you don't lose that much damage going for it if you're dealing bow damage only.

Another alternative to Automaton would be Hawk's Eye, which helps more with sustain (though not as much as Marksman) & is only like 1% less damage (if your damage is mostly bow based).


If you want to aim for maximum damage though, go for Night Mother's Gaze next patch - it's amazing for most bow builds (which don't have easy access to Major Fracture).

Vaoh

Ty everyone!

Lexxypwns

DDuke wrote: »

Automaton is more damage, around 3-4% or so.

Problem with Marksman (and Hawk Eye) 5p is that it gets bundled up with your CPs & other percentage modifiers, so it winds up being less than 8% (i.e. it doesn't buff your already buffed dmg, but your base dmg).


That said, Marksman is a fantastic set for sustain & you don't lose that much damage going for it if you're dealing bow damage only.

Another alternative to Automaton would be Hawk's Eye, which helps more with sustain (though not as much as Marksman) & is only like 1% less damage (if your damage is mostly bow based).


If you want to aim for maximum damage though, go for Night Mother's Gaze next patch - it's amazing for most bow builds (which don't have easy access to Major Fracture).

Interesting, I suspected the marksman tooltip couldn’t be accurate based on how much added damage it would be after doing the math this morning.

It’s the same problem that applies to swords, correct?

DDuke

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Automaton is more damage, around 3-4% or so.

Problem with Marksman (and Hawk Eye) 5p is that it gets bundled up with your CPs & other percentage modifiers, so it winds up being less than 8% (i.e. it doesn't buff your already buffed dmg, but your base dmg).


That said, Marksman is a fantastic set for sustain & you don't lose that much damage going for it if you're dealing bow damage only.

Another alternative to Automaton would be Hawk's Eye, which helps more with sustain (though not as much as Marksman) & is only like 1% less damage (if your damage is mostly bow based).


If you want to aim for maximum damage though, go for Night Mother's Gaze next patch - it's amazing for most bow builds (which don't have easy access to Major Fracture).

Interesting, I suspected the marksman tooltip couldn’t be accurate based on how much added damage it would be after doing the math this morning.

It’s the same problem that applies to swords, correct?

Yep, and every other percentage modifier in the game that increases your damage.

The only way to buff the already buffed up damage is with target debuffs (i.e. penetration, Morag Tong, Minor Vulnerability, Incap etc) and those get bundled up as well if there's multiple dmg taken debuffs.

rumple9

After summerset I'm gonna use agility bow +1 agility neck with 5 marksman and 5 Hawkeye obvs no monster piece

Thogard

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

How many bow skills would be affected by automaton though?

Lethal arrow is disease dmg IIRC. Poison injection is poison...

Magnum shot
Bombard
Focused aim
Ballista

My guess is he’s looking at an Asylum build using those 4 skills

Those are the PvE morphs though .

Hard to imagine any good player using focused aim over lethal arrow or magnum over draining shot.

But I don’t really use a bow so I only know from the receiving end lol

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

How many bow skills would be affected by automaton though?

Lethal arrow is disease dmg IIRC. Poison injection is poison...

Magnum shot
Bombard
Focused aim
Ballista

My guess is he’s looking at an Asylum build using those 4 skills

Those are the PvE morphs though .

Hard to imagine any good player using focused aim over lethal arrow or magnum over draining shot.

But I don’t really use a bow so I only know from the receiving end lol

There's perks to using Focused Aim, for instance it doesn't put a DoT on target meaning you can restealth right after landing it in case target lives.

That, and it's also used in builds that utilize Automaton, which is BiS for maximum damage if you don't care about penetration, e.g. if you're using 2H ulti to finish off targets after landing snipe.


Magnum/Draining though... they are both kinda worthless for a bow build due to 10m range - most of the time they're dead skills on bar since a bow build kites people & tries to not be within 10m range.

GreenhaloX

Vaoh.. stick to your sorc, you beast. You can't solo vet DLC dungeon with a bow build.

geonsocal

so next patch I won't really need my marksman bow anymore...

I use 5pc marksman on my bow bar on a few builds...

just realized that seeing as how I can't find weapons other than bows anymore - will have to slot another set on my bow bar...

maybe they'll re-introduce the other stuff back in to the loot table...probably not though...

except for the SnB bars, it'll be nice to even up the stats between the two bars...

Animus-ESO

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Vaoh.. stick to your sorc, you beast. You can't solo vet DLC dungeon with a bow build.

*clears throat* Well... you can pull 40k dps on a bow build now....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIAjxtt-JL4

Asardes

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Vaoh.. stick to your sorc, you beast. You can't solo vet DLC dungeon with a bow build.

*clears throat* Well... you can pull 40k dps on a bow build now....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIAjxtt-JL4

This is a PvE build. No player in PvP will sit there and get damaged by Relequen "winds". Also not a very good set in PvE for fights where bosses hop around like crazy like vAS.

exeeter702

@Vaoh what clsss are you planning on setting this up in just curious.

Not to highjack the thread, but i recently made a bow stam warden, and cant for the life of me make it work. Was weighing in on marksman vs auto and paring it with hawkeye or eternal hunt.

SodanTok

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh what clsss are you planning on setting this up in just curious.

Not to highjack the thread, but i recently made a bow stam warden, and cant for the life of me make it work. Was weighing in on marksman vs auto and paring it with hawkeye or eternal hunt.

If you play warden, you either go (from experience playing and fighting against) for subassault/dive build or lethal/dive build. I have seen some weird sub assault snipe builds, but I dont think they work well.

So in both cases you are using one poison and one physical ability and half/half (or even less) actual bow abilities. That imo removes both automaton (unless you really really want to go for focused aim/dive) and hawk eye. Marksman is good enough sustain wise to keep up if you use the snipe build.

exeeter702

SodanTok wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Vaoh what clsss are you planning on setting this up in just curious.

Not to highjack the thread, but i recently made a bow stam warden, and cant for the life of me make it work. Was weighing in on marksman vs auto and paring it with hawkeye or eternal hunt.

If you play warden, you either go (from experience playing and fighting against) for subassault/dive build or lethal/dive build. I have seen some weird sub assault snipe builds, but I dont think they work well.

So in both cases you are using one poison and one physical ability and half/half (or even less) actual bow abilities. That imo removes both automaton (unless you really really want to go for focused aim/dive) and hawk eye. Marksman is good enough sustain wise to keep up if you use the snipe build.

for sure.

Checkmath

exeeter702 wrote: »

@Vaoh what clsss are you planning on setting this up in just curious.

Not to highjack the thread, but i recently made a bow stam warden, and cant for the life of me make it work. Was weighing in on marksman vs auto and paring it with hawkeye or eternal hunt.

As stamwarden with bow, did you consider the asylum bow?
Rota would be something like: shalks, lethal arrow, acid spray. I dont want to imagine the damage...

pdebie64b16_ESO

I played awhile with Automaton/Marksman/Kena, but i did miss the pressure of the more poison builds like Marksman/Morag Tong or Morag Tong/Sheer Venom with Asylium bow/Masters bow/Kena.

Vaoh

For anyone trying to make a PvP Bow build, I can tell you from a lot of experience that Morag Tong is absolutely a “BiS” set to use, ofc being paired with Lethal Arrow. Marksmans is a great second 5-piece, and even Swamp Raider if applicable to your build. Master/Maelstrom/Asylum are all powerful as well. Also worth mentioning that in the combo of Lethal Arrow -> Arrow Spray with an Asylum Bow, the Arrow Spray will proc Morag Tong AND Asylum bonus before Lethal Arrow strikes, assuming there is a small distance between you and the target. High burst from this alone.

The reason I was wondering about Automaton vs Marksmans is because I was simply just curious which one is stronger in terms of pure damage output.

DDuke

Vaoh wrote: »

For anyone trying to make a PvP Bow build, I can tell you from a lot of experience that Morag Tong is absolutely a “BiS” set to use, ofc being paired with Lethal Arrow. Marksmans is a great second 5-piece, and even Swamp Raider if applicable to your build. Master/Maelstrom/Asylum are all powerful as well. Also worth mentioning that in the combo of Lethal Arrow -> Arrow Spray with an Asylum Bow, the Arrow Spray will proc Morag Tong AND Asylum bonus before Lethal Arrow strikes, assuming there is a small distance between you and the target. High burst from this alone.

The reason I was wondering about Automaton vs Marksmans is because I was simply just curious which one is stronger in terms of pure damage output.

I used to run Morag before, but have since found out there's better sets for raw damage :P


Spriggan is more damage, as is Night Mother's Gaze (next patch).

3x Agi 1x Kena 1x Kra'gh is also more damage, atleast if you previously couldn't go 5/1/1 with Morag (as is often the case if your 2nd set is Marksman).


That said, Morag is probably the best damage if target has a damage shield up though & the difference to those other setups isn't huge.

Vaoh

DDuke wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

For anyone trying to make a PvP Bow build, I can tell you from a lot of experience that Morag Tong is absolutely a “BiS” set to use, ofc being paired with Lethal Arrow. Marksmans is a great second 5-piece, and even Swamp Raider if applicable to your build. Master/Maelstrom/Asylum are all powerful as well. Also worth mentioning that in the combo of Lethal Arrow -> Arrow Spray with an Asylum Bow, the Arrow Spray will proc Morag Tong AND Asylum bonus before Lethal Arrow strikes, assuming there is a small distance between you and the target. High burst from this alone.

The reason I was wondering about Automaton vs Marksmans is because I was simply just curious which one is stronger in terms of pure damage output.

I used to run Morag before, but have since found out there's better sets for raw damage :P


Spriggan is more damage, as is Night Mother's Gaze (next patch).

3x Agi 1x Kena 1x Kra'gh is also more damage, atleast if you previously couldn't go 5/1/1 with Morag (as is often the case if your 2nd set is Marksman).

Ugh.... nvm then ._.

The thing about Spriggans though is that the penetration loses all effectiveness vs shielded targets. Morag Tong is also a powerful, constantly applying debuff. It increases allied Dmg against the target and provides a debuff for the enemy to purge. Stacking with Siphoner from CPs, an Efficient Purge is made useless.

As for Agility/Kena/Kra’gh.... does that really beat the 2x Weapon Dmg, 1x Max Stam, and then 10% poison Dmg from Morag Tong? I find that hard to believe that a 10% poison bonus is worth less than what is essentially less than 2x more stat bonuses.

DDuke

Vaoh wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

For anyone trying to make a PvP Bow build, I can tell you from a lot of experience that Morag Tong is absolutely a “BiS” set to use, ofc being paired with Lethal Arrow. Marksmans is a great second 5-piece, and even Swamp Raider if applicable to your build. Master/Maelstrom/Asylum are all powerful as well. Also worth mentioning that in the combo of Lethal Arrow -> Arrow Spray with an Asylum Bow, the Arrow Spray will proc Morag Tong AND Asylum bonus before Lethal Arrow strikes, assuming there is a small distance between you and the target. High burst from this alone.

The reason I was wondering about Automaton vs Marksmans is because I was simply just curious which one is stronger in terms of pure damage output.

I used to run Morag before, but have since found out there's better sets for raw damage :P


Spriggan is more damage, as is Night Mother's Gaze (next patch).

3x Agi 1x Kena 1x Kra'gh is also more damage, atleast if you previously couldn't go 5/1/1 with Morag (as is often the case if your 2nd set is Marksman).

Ugh.... nvm then ._.

The thing about Spriggans though is that the penetration loses all effectiveness vs shielded targets. Morag Tong is also a powerful, constantly applying debuff. It increases allied Dmg against the target and provides a debuff for the enemy to purge. Stacking with Siphoner from CPs, an Efficient Purge is made useless.

As for Agility/Kena/Kra’gh.... does that really beat the 2x Weapon Dmg, 1x Max Stam, and then 10% poison Dmg from Morag Tong? I find that hard to believe that a 10% poison bonus is worth less than what is essentially less than 2x more stat bonuses.

Yeah, I'd definitely slot Morag when playing with other bow users (or people with poison damage) - it's easily BiS in those scenarios.

How it negates purge can also be useful, though usually on bow build you aim to just one shot people & skip that stage entirely :P

That said, NMG will be really good for that purpose next patch... the Major Fracture gets reapplied every time you deal crit damage with anything, so it's really annoying to try to get rid of it.


I tested 5 Marksman+5x Morag Tong+Asylum Bow (7 medium) vs 5x Marksman+3x Agi+1x Kena+1x Kra'gh (5/1/1 medium) just a few months ago (after Dragon Bones update) and 5/1/1 was doing some 500-1k more damage.

I'm not sure how it'd compare if both setups were 5/1/1 medium, but being able to get some extra stamina from Undaunted passive certainly helps.

Also keep in mind that the Morag Tong 10% damage taken debuff is bundled up with Asylum Bow's +50% dmg taken, so it's not really a flat 10% increase.