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Modes for Beginners in PvP

tinythinker
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This will offend some people morally (their sense of how things *ought* to be or what others *should* do). That is, "X was good enough for me...", "If a noob can't/won't do Y...", "People now are so entitled that they Z..." and the like. But I don't care.

I've played PvP on and off four four years, sometimes intensely for months at a time, and once upon a time I used to take people in a guild to get their feet wet for an hour each week In Cyro. Many people think they will hate AvA but then they love it. Great. But many have a hard time getting into it with a "sink or swim" approach. Under-50 is a great idea but there are soooo many experienced players on twink builds. Dueling is a good way to learn, unless you get killed in 0.5-2.5 seconds because you don't have enough impen and the right morphs.

The end result is that many players who *might* learn to enjoy or even "git gud" at AvA and BGs either say "#&$% this!" or go to Cyro and clump in zergs for safety. When they actually do go for the gear it's often the most broken sets. Then gudplayoors moan about no decent small-group play and how no one can really fight and that the AvA pop is too small. So, if you think that only players who google pvp builds, spend lots of time farming the right gear, and are willing endure awful beat-downs for a long time, etc. are worth recruiting, you are ignoring many fence-sitters and people who gave up or who are too intimidated to try. Players who want to see that something is fun before investing in prepping for a commitment to it are out there.

So, to lure more people in, get them hooked, and give them a chance to have meaningful practice, I'm proposing beginner modes. If you have other ideas for beginner modes (sans snark) great. If you think there are other ways to help, great. Or how to improve my suggestions. Love to hear it.

Beginner Mode: Dueling

Equalized stats -- power, regen, resistance... the same for both players. In Beginner Mode, you earn nothing, not even for the dueling achievement. A veteran player with smarter skill bars and practiced combos still has an advantage, but it is reduced. This lets noobs practice in a more productive way versus other noobs as well as friends, guildies, or strangers. Noobs live longer, hit harder, and get more of a chance to actually see the combos, realize their mistakes, and so on with the slower pace. This could be something you toggle or a location -- go inside and all duels are Beginner Mode. Players who have fun and improve will get bored, but now have more reason to actually farm/craft PvP gear and more confidence to drop the training wheels. And it's not like this is a giant coding/dev investment.

Beginner Mode: Battle Ground

Same as above, just a simple death match. Everything else above applies in terms of mechanics, reasoning, etc. No big girl achievements or rewards. Maybe some heavily reduced prize when you first try it but that's all.

I am not saying this is the best way, the only way, etc., but it's a small investment by the devs with a potential to get and keep more people doing PvP. Thanks for taking the time to read, even if you hate the idea.

edit for les typos


Edited by tinythinker on May 10, 2018 4:37AM
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  • VaranisArano
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    Any sort of beginner mode in Cyrodiil needs to come with a full speed, full stam mount. Its no fun riding to fights only for it to be over before you get there on your low speed, lowbie mount.
  • Joy_Division
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    I do agree it isn't really fair that an inexperienced player pretty much gets thrown into the deep end of the pool with a bunch of piranhas. ZOS does not really have or encourage a system in which inexperienced players fight each other.

    At launch it was much easier because 95% of the population were not very good and there were a lot of PvP "trainer" guilds out there that were good at teaching new players the ropes. PvP would be a lot better if the pop caps were larger to encourage a larger proportion a newer/inexperienced players, but unfortunately ZOS's servers cannot handle that.
  • tinythinker
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    Any sort of beginner mode in Cyrodiil needs to come with a full speed, full stam mount. Its no fun riding to fights only for it to be over before you get there on your low speed, lowbie mount.

    I left out a "Beginner's Mode: Cyrodiil" because that's harder to pull off, but I'd be really interested in any visions of what could work. I mean, yeah, you could have a new campaign with the same "rules" I offered for other starter situations, but without achievements or earning AP it would be dead. Dueling and a single simple DM BG are easier slots to fill.

    Maybe just a 40 player battle royal where the map consists of Alessia Bride and it's immediate surroundings. No horse required :tongue:



    I do agree it isn't really fair that an inexperienced player pretty much gets thrown into the deep end of the pool with a bunch of piranhas. ZOS does not really have or encourage a system in which inexperienced players fight each other.

    At launch it was much easier because 95% of the population were not very good and there were a lot of PvP "trainer" guilds out there that were good at teaching new players the ropes. PvP would be a lot better if the pop caps were larger to encourage a larger proportion a newer/inexperienced players, but unfortunately ZOS's servers cannot handle that.

    It was easier then, but as I was new to PvP except for a few runs through a low level BG in Neverwinter for the 10 days I played that game, I felt guilty attacking other players and had no idea what to do. So naturally I avoided risk and my learning curve was slow. Now it's a much harder place to jump in unless you have experienced friends who do it or type 123 for group, and even then it can be hard to adjust for some.

    That's why I had hoped BGs would be ranked when they dropped to include things beyond wins like a K:D ratio or duration of match before a win or loss or other factors to separate out those who are sailing through from those who are struggling to stay alive. Even now you see people give up in BGs and either bail or try to stay in the respawn area after they get spanked a few times with no real answer to fight back with. In the absence of something like ranked BGs, I figured something that leveled the field a bit and slowed the pace might help (and honestly these could work *with* ranked BGs -- going from Beginner Mode to Low Ranked to Mid Ranked to High Ranked). It takes time to learn and to develop a thick "PvP-skin"and that time needs to be fun and readily accessible.
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  • Dreyloch
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    Back at launch, I thought of Cyrodiil as the end game. (I know!! it seems silly!!!) But the way it was advertised with really nice slick CGI promo's back in the beginning, you could see where I might get that idea. Work the dungeons and trials, but ultimately PvP is where the real fun is!

    Anyway, to your idea OP, yeah that'd be cool. I just think this far along, that people can find all the info they need on the net. PvP in this game requires dogged determination, and a pretty darn thick skin. Experienced or not. It's not for the timid. Those that have been around since launch have realized ZoS is very slow to do anything in the game. Fixing bugs, balancing, changing anything in general outside of adding some new content here and there. PvP is, and has been a very small part of the overall picture for them =/

    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • tinythinker
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    Dreyloch wrote: »
    Back at launch, I thought of Cyrodiil as the end game. (I know!! it seems silly!!!) But the way it was advertised with really nice slick CGI promo's back in the beginning, you could see where I might get that idea. Work the dungeons and trials, but ultimately PvP is where the real fun is!
    Even though you could go to Cyro at level 10 you could do more at Vet 10. Plus they were late with Craglorn and had to divide it up. Cyrodiil be default became end-game anyway, or at least a big chunk of it.
    Dreyloch wrote: »
    Anyway, to your idea OP, yeah that'd be cool. I just think this far along, that people can find all the info they need on the net. PvP in this game requires dogged determination, and a pretty darn thick skin. Experienced or not. It's not for the timid. Those that have been around since launch have realized ZoS is very slow to do anything in the game. Fixing bugs, balancing, changing anything in general outside of adding some new content here and there. PvP is, and has been a very small part of the overall picture for them =/
    I appreciate the thoughtful reply.

    In my hopefully humble opinion: It's not just about info online, it's about experience and things you can't learn or understand by watching a vid. And again as I indicated limiting the options to people with "dogged determination", "thick skin", and "not timid" in their initial forays into PvP leaves out people who might develop determination and boldness *if* they get a chance to try PvP and learn in a way that is optimized for beginners. My goal isn't to limit my thinking to those who pass a litmus test of the few, the proud, the "whatever", but to look at obstacles that can keep people from having a fun but appropriate challenge that also helps them learn. I know you get what I mean, I just recap sometimes for those who skim :smile:

    It's similar to PvE. At launch, full base-game zones scaled in difficulty. So the Auridon, Glenumbra, and Stonefalls dungeons were unlocked first with (still the same) easy mechanics. Plus back then, combat was simpler and easier to pick up. The idea was that you had a pathway via each new set of zones (onto Grahtwood, Stormhaven, and Deshaan!) and their group dungeons for people to be more challenged over time as they learned individual and group play and their roles. But now people can hit 50 much faster, get plugged into the champion system, and can do those dungeons in any order even under 50. For extra joy, add in DLC dungeons, too, which have even harder mechanics, for those who've reached cp 160.

    The result is a number of threads the last couple years talking about the ways ZOS could advertise the relative difficulty of dungeons for newer players, or adding more restrictions to who can run which content, or introducing training scenarios for different roles so that people understand how to dodge AoE in chaotic boss fights, how to prioritize targets, how to effectively taunt or use CC or apply HoTs under particular conditions, and so on. Complaints about damage dealers who just spam light bow attacks, or tanks who really do have sword and board or frost staff but too little health/can't hold aggro, or healers who spam expensive burst heals for light damage and go OOM as everyone dies, are indicative of why these suggestions are made.

    In the same vein, I see a gap that exists now that is much larger than at launch for PvP. And knowing how long it can take do get anything added for PvP, I wanted to up with something that can help fill in that gap without a lot of extra coding or design work. Practice mode or beginner mode was the result.

    I know I said you shoudn't get standard rewards for dueling or BGs, or anything that people could exploit, but there would have to be some reward that is appropriate and modest. Might add that to the OP later.
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  • Auros
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    I am NOT experienced PvP-er!! Now that this one is clear, my suggestion as a newb is to create a Real-NOcp for beginners above 50 :)
    I remember the Laag in Cyrodiil began after introducing CP. Now, my conclusion is that this way one of the problems is the fast-combo experienced players simply moved there ...hitting at full speed newbs like me ... so, I am not complaining. This is my suggestion.
  • IcyDeadPeople
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    Assuming we get a lot more people queueing for battlegrounds next patch, it could become quite beginner friendly if the matchmaking system is able to actually pair random beginners up with other beginners, while experienced players and premades end up in different matches.
  • Dreyloch
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    Auros wrote: »
    I am NOT experienced PvP-er!! Now that this one is clear, my suggestion as a newb is to create a Real-NOcp for beginners above 50 :)
    I remember the Laag in Cyrodiil began after introducing CP. Now, my conclusion is that this way one of the problems is the fast-combo experienced players simply moved there ...hitting at full speed newbs like me ... so, I am not complaining. This is my suggestion.

    There is a server for post level 50 PvP with no CP. But it can be as competitive as Vivec which has CP. IIRC it's Sotha Sil. Some of the most expert players tend to like that server because without CP's you have to be very mindful of your resource management. How much regen you have for stamina or magicka depending on your character. Otherwise you'll run out and that typically means your dead =/
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • zyk
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    It's not just about the new user experience. ESO has a very broad audience including a very large casual audience of players who are either not willing or not able to compete against gaming enthusiasts. The result is that these players simply avoid PVP or contribute to faction stacks.

    IMO, there are many current casual AvA players who would like to play in small groups and spread out more if there was a greater likelihood of finding decent fights that they are competitive in.

    I think a lot of younger players might fail to realize that MMOs are played by many who have health and time constraints that make it improbable for them to ever be competitive against enthusiasts.

    ZOS should focus on improving the new user experience in AvA, but also consider trying to segment players based on aptitude and/or interest level. There are a variety of ways to do this, including incentivizing a more challenging campaign, creating gameplay opportunities for open world GvG for groups of all sizes, and encouraging mentoring.

    Personally, I would love to see a campaign composed entirely of AvA enthusiasts competing for valuable rewards. By drawing experienced players to such a campaign, the other campaigns would become a better fit for casual players.
    Edited by zyk on May 10, 2018 9:47PM
  • LarsS
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    Tinythinker you already mentioned the simplest solution. If someone want to try pvp, look for a guild who accepts beginners and helps then to adapt to pvp.
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  • Rohamad_Ali
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    I like this idea . Anything to encourage learning is a good suggestion for PvP . Hope someone at ZoS reads this .
  • tinythinker
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    zyk wrote: »
    It's not just about the new user experience. ESO has a very broad audience including a very large casual audience of players who are either not willing or not able to compete against gaming enthusiasts. The result is that these players simply avoid PVP or contribute to faction stacks.

    IMO, there are many current casual AvA players who would like to play in small groups and spread out more if there was a greater likelihood of finding decent fights that they are competitive in.

    I think a lot of younger players might fail to realize that MMOs are played by many who have health and time constraints that make it improbable for them to ever be competitive against enthusiasts.

    ZOS should focus on improving the new user experience in AvA, but also consider trying to segment players based on aptitude and/or interest level. There are a variety of ways to do this, including incentivizing a more challenging campaign, creating gameplay opportunities for open world GvG for groups of all sizes, and encouraging mentoring.

    Personally, I would love to see a campaign composed entirely of AvA enthusiasts competing for valuable rewards. By drawing experienced players to such a campaign, the other campaigns would become a better fit for casual players.
    True. My focus was on broad recruitment, so the default focus was on newer players.

    Not sure how the different AvA set up is going to work. Do you mean a Beginner's Mode version with equalized stats or something else?
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  • tinythinker
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    LarsS wrote: »
    Tinythinker you already mentioned the simplest solution. If someone want to try pvp, look for a guild who accepts beginners and helps then to adapt to pvp.

    It's one way but it isn't fully reliable or accessible for everyone all the time. If the goal is more people participating and having fun, then more opportunities (especially simple to implement things) can only help.


    Anything to encourage learning is a good suggestion for PvP .

    Yeah, there are more complex ideas that could help with that, but I don't see them happening anytime remotely soon. Not until more people are doing some kind of PvP, whether it's AvA, BGs, or dueling. The latter for example, could be expanded and built upon. But one step at a time.
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  • Auros
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    Create new NOcp campaign filtered by rank. Once you gain your time on the field, you are considered vet and can continue at the todays no-CP Sotha Sil or Vivec as you see fit. This way true beginners will stand a chance, unless a vet has interest to roll a new char and ... be rank 1 again!?
  • Leandor
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    I think that OPs idea of using battlegrounds and duelling for an introduction, with severely restricted build freedom (basically premade characters you play in there) is a very good idea, since players learn exactly the most important thing in there: survival. Killing others comes later and is not as important as surviving in regards to morals.

    I'd be all for it. Maybe start with battlegrounds. Once players hit 50 on their first char, unlock this "training mode" battleground. You don't earn leaderboard points, AP and no set item rewards to ensure this mode will not be exploited for gear/AP/leaderboard farming.

    I think the only problem will be to find enough players to populate it. Would probably better to do 2 faction fights (i.e. 4vs4) only.
  • Katahdin
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    Any sort of beginner mode in Cyrodiil needs to come with a full speed, full stam mount. Its no fun riding to fights only for it to be over before you get there on your low speed, lowbie mount.

    Definitely need this.

    A new campaign filtered by alliance rank sounds like a good idea. Once you reach a certain rank, you have to go to a vet campaign.

    However, I don't think we have the population to support it.

    Also you will have experienced players on lower characters there that know what they are doing, just havent got the alliance rank up yet. An experienced player in proper gear will still beat up on the inexperienced ones.

    Also, newer players may not have access to the ones willing to teach if they are locked out of the campaign where those players are
    Edited by Katahdin on May 15, 2018 2:43PM
    Beta tester November 2013
  • Beardimus
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    There are already L1-50 Batllegrounds

    And Kyne

    The root cause of the problem is D BAG players re rolling toons to remain in both with gold gear kicking noob butt.
    If we stopped that, and let noobs play with noobs they would A. Stand a chance and B. Enjoy it.

    But people are ePeen idiots.
    Xbox One | EU | EP
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  • tinythinker
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    There are already L1-50 Batllegrounds

    And Kyne

    The root cause of the problem is D BAG players re rolling toons to remain in both with gold gear kicking noob butt.
    If we stopped that, and let noobs play with noobs they would A. Stand a chance and B. Enjoy it.

    But people are ePeen idiots.
    Which is why something such people can't abuse is needed.

    (And not all experienced players who visit Kyne are like that.)

    Edited by tinythinker on May 16, 2018 2:08PM
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  • geonsocal
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    not sure exactly how it could be executed - but, the pre-made "training" builds does sound interesting...

    sort of like how they recently rolled out the skills advisor thing - maybe they could also implement some type of pvp advisor...
    PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place
  • Jierdanit
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    There are already L1-50 Batllegrounds

    And Kyne

    The root cause of the problem is D BAG players re rolling toons to remain in both with gold gear kicking noob butt.
    If we stopped that, and let noobs play with noobs they would A. Stand a chance and B. Enjoy it.

    But people are ePeen idiots.

    You have never played on Kyne have you?
    Because if you had played there you would know that this campaign ist already so empty that if you would take every vet player out of Kyne it would definitely not be any fun for the "noobs" because they would not have any fights at all and the campaign would just be completely empty :warning:
    Edited by Jierdanit on May 19, 2018 6:51AM
    PC/EU, StamSorc Main
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