Belgium's Ruling on Lootboxes [Video Attached]

Illurian

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't been on the forums the past week or so and a quick scan of the first few pages of the forums didn't bring anything up.

Belgium has recently ruled Lootbox systems in games to be illegal with potentials of fines and/or jail time. They have ruled FIFA, CS:GO and Overwatch to be in breach with this ruling.

Video summary here:
https://youtu.be/FNiVSj9uzTw

Seeing as how Overwatch's lootbox system is purely cosmetic, I was surprised to see them on the list. However, what does this mean for Crown Crates?

Does this mean that ZOS will have to put an end to Crown Crates? Will they ignore it? Something bigger?

What do you guys think?

xbobx

its been discussed, a lot. best to delete

EngineeringElf

I suspect they will ignore it. I'm no legal expert but ZOS is a US based company and as of now, they are not doing anything illegal by these laws. I mean, like would they have the ability to block Belgium players from this fiction of the game just because their government deems it illegal?

P.S. I don't condone gambling, just playing the gadfly in the matter.

Aesthier

Well I know one thing they will remove...

This thread as it is considered to be a discussion of something other than material contained within the game.


Because crown crates aren't loot boxes.


But as far as CS:GO and Overwatch are concerned they won't pay fines at all. They will either simply remove the ability to purchase or gain these boxes for those in that country or simply remove access to the game for those in that country if they really feel threatened that is.

ihazzit

After reading the rulings and testing methods and such I am of the opinion that the loot box ruling currently doesn't apply to ESO crown crates because they are account bound and cannot be traded for real world currency. The point of the loot box issue in Belgium and The Netherlands was to determine if they fell under their gambling laws that require government regulation. It was found they primarily must be 1. Of chance and 2. Transferable for real world currency.

Those authorities want further discussion with gaming developers over loot box systems though due to the possibility of associating them with gambling addiction, especially with minors. One of the games already changed their loot box system as the workarounds are relatively simple so loot boxes aren't going anywhere any time soon.

Skwor

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!

Turelus

In before Istoppucks.

Yeah this has been talked about a lot in this thread: LINK

Stinkyremy

EngineeringElf wrote: »

I suspect they will ignore it. I'm no legal expert but ZOS is a US based company and as of now, they are not doing anything illegal by these laws. I mean, like would they have the ability to block Belgium players from this fiction of the game just because their government deems it illegal?

P.S. I don't condone gambling, just playing the gadfly in the matter.

If they are trading in the country they have to cease trade and abide by the laws.
Similar to valve and it's refund policy where EU countries have trading standards so they had to implement refunds.

DanteYoda

Crown crates are illegal and will need to go.

lakaisl

EngineeringElf wrote: »

I suspect they will ignore it. I'm no legal expert but ZOS is a US based company and as of now, they are not doing anything illegal by these laws. I mean, like would they have the ability to block Belgium players from this fiction of the game just because their government deems it illegal?

P.S. I don't condone gambling, just playing the gadfly in the matter.

They have EU entities too, every company that sells stuff in the EU has to have one. That means the EU branches of Zenimax have the problem, not the US one.

If Belgium alone blocks the sale of these crates that means Zenimax has to figure out a way to block it to Belgian players, otherwise they could risk a fine. I think its very hard to block content to people form a certain country in an online game.
But if the Legislation turns EU wide (an EU regulation or directive for example) Zenimax really has no choice.

As now its hard to enforce a Belgian, or Dutch law for that matter, in an other EU country for example Germany (Zenimax GmbH).

In other words only time will tell what happens to Crown Crates and other Lootboxes. Atleast we can blame EA for starting the commotion .

Off-topic:

What about a crown store preview for May?:)

jedtb16_ESO

Illurian wrote: »

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't been on the forums the past week or so and a quick scan of the first few pages of the forums didn't bring anything up.

Belgium has recently ruled Lootbox systems in games to be illegal[/b] with potentials of fines and/or jail time. They have ruled FIFA, CS:GO and Overwatch to be in breach with this ruling.

Video summary here:
https://youtu.be/FNiVSj9uzTw

Seeing as how Overwatch's lootbox system is purely cosmetic, I was surprised to see them on the list. However, what does this mean for Crown Crates?

Does this mean that ZOS will have to put an end to Crown Crates? Will they ignore it? Something bigger?

What do you guys think?

no they didn't. they ruled that loot boxes containing items that could be traded outside the game are contrary to their gambling regulations.

Illurian

ihazzit wrote: »

After reading the rulings and testing methods and such I am of the opinion that the loot box ruling currently doesn't apply to ESO crown crates because they are account bound and cannot be traded for real world currency. The point of the loot box issue in Belgium and The Netherlands was to determine if they fell under their gambling laws that require government regulation. It was found they primarily must be 1. Of chance and 2. Transferable for real world currency.

I would share your opinion, but Overwatch's lootboxes can also not be transferred for real world currency and are purely cosmetic. However, despite these facts, they are deemed to go against this ruling.

Turelus wrote: »

In before Istoppucks.

Yeah this has been talked about a lot in this thread: LINK

Thanks!

Illurian

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't been on the forums the past week or so and a quick scan of the first few pages of the forums didn't bring anything up.

Belgium has recently ruled Lootbox systems in games to be illegal[/b] with potentials of fines and/or jail time. They have ruled FIFA, CS:GO and Overwatch to be in breach with this ruling.

Video summary here:
https://youtu.be/FNiVSj9uzTw

Seeing as how Overwatch's lootbox system is purely cosmetic, I was surprised to see them on the list. However, what does this mean for Crown Crates?

Does this mean that ZOS will have to put an end to Crown Crates? Will they ignore it? Something bigger?

What do you guys think?

no they didn't. they ruled that loot boxes containing items that could be traded outside the game are contrary to their gambling regulations.

Again, Overwatch's lootboxes and everything contained therein cannot be traded for any currency (real world or in-game), but was also ruled against.

lakaisl

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't been on the forums the past week or so and a quick scan of the first few pages of the forums didn't bring anything up.

Belgium has recently ruled Lootbox systems in games to be illegal[/b] with potentials of fines and/or jail time. They have ruled FIFA, CS:GO and Overwatch to be in breach with this ruling.

Video summary here:
https://youtu.be/FNiVSj9uzTw

Seeing as how Overwatch's lootbox system is purely cosmetic, I was surprised to see them on the list. However, what does this mean for Crown Crates?

Does this mean that ZOS will have to put an end to Crown Crates? Will they ignore it? Something bigger?

What do you guys think?

no they didn't. they ruled that loot boxes containing items that could be traded outside the game are contrary to their gambling regulations.

Didn't the Dutch authorities say that? I don't know about the Belgian ones...

jedtb16_ESO

lakaisl wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't been on the forums the past week or so and a quick scan of the first few pages of the forums didn't bring anything up.

Belgium has recently ruled Lootbox systems in games to be illegal[/b] with potentials of fines and/or jail time. They have ruled FIFA, CS:GO and Overwatch to be in breach with this ruling.

Video summary here:
https://youtu.be/FNiVSj9uzTw

Seeing as how Overwatch's lootbox system is purely cosmetic, I was surprised to see them on the list. However, what does this mean for Crown Crates?

Does this mean that ZOS will have to put an end to Crown Crates? Will they ignore it? Something bigger?

What do you guys think?

no they didn't. they ruled that loot boxes containing items that could be traded outside the game are contrary to their gambling regulations.

Didn't the Dutch authorities say that? I don't know about the Belgian ones...

yes both the dutch and the belgians.

lakaisl

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

lakaisl wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I haven't been on the forums the past week or so and a quick scan of the first few pages of the forums didn't bring anything up.

Belgium has recently ruled Lootbox systems in games to be illegal[/b] with potentials of fines and/or jail time. They have ruled FIFA, CS:GO and Overwatch to be in breach with this ruling.

Video summary here:
https://youtu.be/FNiVSj9uzTw

Seeing as how Overwatch's lootbox system is purely cosmetic, I was surprised to see them on the list. However, what does this mean for Crown Crates?

Does this mean that ZOS will have to put an end to Crown Crates? Will they ignore it? Something bigger?

What do you guys think?

no they didn't. they ruled that loot boxes containing items that could be traded outside the game are contrary to their gambling regulations.

Didn't the Dutch authorities say that? I don't know about the Belgian ones...

yes both the dutch and the belgians.

Then I think PUBG fits the profile as one of the mainstream games at this moment, you can sell stuff for real money.

JD2013

If ZOS are forced to remove crown crates, then they will have to come up with other things to make more money.

I guarantee you that people will be begging them to bring back crown crates with some of the stuff a company could do to make more money in a game.

Aurielle

Skwor wrote: »

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!

Trying to protect people from toxic, anti-consumer business practices that prey on/contribute to addiction is “fascist” behaviour now? Okay. I’ll never understand why some people refuse to hold companies accountable for shady behaviour, “because capitalism.” But what do I know? I’m just some “socialist” Canadian.

Anyway, I sadly doubt that Belgium’s ruling will have much effect. More gaming markets will have to get on board before RNG crates are eliminated.

JD2013

Aurielle wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!

Trying to protect people from toxic, anti-consumer business practices that prey on/contribute to addiction is “fascist” behaviour now? Okay. I’ll never understand why some people refuse to hold companies accountable for shady behaviour, “because capitalism.” But what do I know? I’m just some “socialist” Canadian.

Anyway, I sadly doubt that Belgium’s ruling will have much effect. More gaming markets will have to get on board before RNG crates are eliminated.

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

Now, I don't buy them, I don't care for them, but I don't understand this obsession with eliminating them.

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Notice the conditional clause - "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies. And yet people still go ahead in full and good knowledge of this, and press that buy button anyhow.

The consumer knows what they are getting into. And go ahead anyhoo.

Now, it is, of course, a thing that they could just put everything in the crown store. Bam. Done. But there's no guarantee of how many people would buy said product if they did. Crown Crates must be doing well, or else they would not keep doing it.

And again, those that participate know full well what they are getting into. Addiction, to me, is the person's fault. I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

Belgium doesnt even alllow the police to arrest a criminal at night. So really, whatever law they do, the rest of Europe is just laughing.

danno8

JD2013 wrote: »

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Do they though? What are your chances of getting "that item" you want? That's one of the problems. You don't actually know what you chances are.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

But children do. An although certainly parent play the biggest role in this, If I were to look up the ESRB rating for ESO, I get this:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis.aspx?Certificate=33311&Title=The+Elder+Scrolls+Online

The "Mature" rating, which according to ESRB means "Blood and Gore, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence". Pretty bad, but I think most of us would find the level of those things in ESO to be pretty tame. My teenager could handle it. She's pretty well grounded in reality in my parental opinion.

But notice how loot crates aren't mentioned at all on the page?

Aurielle

JD2013 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!

Trying to protect people from toxic, anti-consumer business practices that prey on/contribute to addiction is “fascist” behaviour now? Okay. I’ll never understand why some people refuse to hold companies accountable for shady behaviour, “because capitalism.” But what do I know? I’m just some “socialist” Canadian.

Anyway, I sadly doubt that Belgium’s ruling will have much effect. More gaming markets will have to get on board before RNG crates are eliminated.

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

Now, I don't buy them, I don't care for them, but I don't understand this obsession with eliminating them.

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Notice the conditional clause - "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies. And yet people still go ahead in full and good knowledge of this, and press that buy button anyhow.

The consumer knows what they are getting into. And go ahead anyhoo.

Now, it is, of course, a thing that they could just put everything in the crown store. Bam. Done. But there's no guarantee of how many people would buy said product if they did. Crown Crates must be doing well, or else they would not keep doing it.

And again, those that participate know full well what they are getting into. Addiction, to me, is the person's fault. I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

Crown Crates are anti-consumer because they lock highly desirable products (see: radiant apex mounts) behind RNG with extremely low drop rates, in the hopes of compelling people to spend far more than they would if they offered the same product for a fixed rate. It is manipulative and predatory, and therefore anti-consumer, pro-corporation. See: the people who spent thousands trying to get the Plague Husk Horse. I can guarantee you that the same mount would not have sold in the Crown store for an equivalent price. ZOS is thousands of dollars richer from a few consumers who did not even get the item they were attempting to purchase. Anti-consumer, pro-corporation.

Addiction is a disease, not a personal failing. I’m not offended by your lack of understanding, but I’d encourage you to do a bit of unbiased reading on the subject in medical journals/textbooks before blaming people for an unfortunate consequence of genetic susceptibility.

Stewart1874

I am interested to see how things go. If they simply turned off loot crates but refused to offer the content contained within them to the EU market I could see a lot of EU players - Myself included packing up and finding another hobby/game.

My hope is that games companies can work with regulators to set clear and bright lines on what is and isn't gambling and construct a model which offers the maximum value for all stake holders. My preference would be ensuring that all content contained within a loot crate can either be purchased directly or earned within the game - thus removing the gambling element.

I am not against ZOS finding new ways to earn money through ESO, if they didn't I doubt they'd get funding and would be failing to operate effectively as a business, but a fine line needs to be towed on acceptable practises and I think the lack of regulation of loot boxes has turned it into a bit of a wild west allowing companies to get away quite frankly with murder.

lakaisl

Some people need protection against themselves, because they have a 'weakness' against these things like gambling.

JD2013

Aurielle wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Also who cares what Belgium does it has 0 impact on this game in the US or anywhere else outside of facist Europe. Trying to impose your will on everyone else is offensive and tyrannical. Just stop already!

Trying to protect people from toxic, anti-consumer business practices that prey on/contribute to addiction is “fascist” behaviour now? Okay. I’ll never understand why some people refuse to hold companies accountable for shady behaviour, “because capitalism.” But what do I know? I’m just some “socialist” Canadian.

Anyway, I sadly doubt that Belgium’s ruling will have much effect. More gaming markets will have to get on board before RNG crates are eliminated.

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

Now, I don't buy them, I don't care for them, but I don't understand this obsession with eliminating them.

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Notice the conditional clause - "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies. And yet people still go ahead in full and good knowledge of this, and press that buy button anyhow.

The consumer knows what they are getting into. And go ahead anyhoo.

Now, it is, of course, a thing that they could just put everything in the crown store. Bam. Done. But there's no guarantee of how many people would buy said product if they did. Crown Crates must be doing well, or else they would not keep doing it.

And again, those that participate know full well what they are getting into. Addiction, to me, is the person's fault. I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

Crown Crates are anti-consumer because they lock highly desirable products (see: radiant apex mounts) behind RNG with extremely low drop rates, in the hopes of compelling people to spend far more than they would if they offered the same product for a fixed rate. It is manipulative and predatory, and therefore anti-consumer, pro-corporation. See: the people who spent thousands trying to get the Plague Husk Horse. I can guarantee you that the same mount would not have sold in the Crown store for an equivalent price. ZOS is thousands of dollars richer from a few consumers who did not even get the item they were attempting to purchase. Anti-consumer, pro-corporation.

Addiction is a disease, not a personal failing. I’m not offended by your lack of understanding, but I’d encourage you to do a bit of unbiased reading on the subject in medical journals/textbooks before blaming people for an unfortunate consequence of genetic susceptibility.

Actually, as someone who suffers from depression and anxieties, as well as having a couple of bad habits (smoker being the worst) I understand all too well the differences between disease and personality failings. I also understand that it is my responsibility to keep myself away from that black cloud, and nobody else's, as it is my responsibility to break my bad habits. Again, nobody else's. Because I, as an individual am responsible for myself.

As for anti-consumer, again I rebuke your description for the very simple reason of you using the old manipulative and predatory trope.

People who play these crates, I am sure, know that they stand a low chance of gaining a HQ item. And yet they still buy them. I would also actually argue that none of the products are also that desirable. They are cosmetic additions that do nothing to contribute towards the actual gameplay.

If someone is willing to spend hundreds of dollars to get a digital item for a game that will one day shut down and be lost to the ages, well that, to me, is foolish. A fool and his money are soon parted.

danno8 wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

People who choose to buy them of their own free will know exactly what they are getting. A chance to get some goodies.

Do they though? What are your chances of getting "that item" you want? That's one of the problems. You don't actually know what you chances are.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but people are not innocent and don't necessarily need saving from big bad companies. People have free will. They will buy. I say this as a person with a couple of bad life habits. My fault. Nobody else's.

But children do. An although certainly parent play the biggest role in this, If I were to look up the ESRB rating for ESO, I get this:

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis.aspx?Certificate=33311&Title=The+Elder+Scrolls+Online

The "Mature" rating, which according to ESRB means "Blood and Gore, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence". Pretty bad, but I think most of us would find the level of those things in ESO to be pretty tame. My teenager could handle it. She's pretty well grounded in reality in my parental opinion.

But notice how loot crates aren't mentioned at all on the page?

To buy crates you literally have to go onto the account page and enter credit card details to buy crowns, and then you have to go back into the game to spend those crowns.

Unless you have crowns already.

If you allow a teenager access to your bank or credit card, well then that is up to you. Beware the risks that might come with it.

Kodrac

JD2013 wrote: »

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

JD2013 wrote: »

- "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies.

You answered your own question.

JD2013

Kodrac wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

JD2013 wrote: »

- "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies.

You answered your own question.

Except I didn't.

Kinder eggs, crane machines, trading card packs, things like that. All have, at one time or another, offered a chance for fun shinies.

People play a game of chance. Again, people know they only have a chance and play anyway. Plenty of consumers buy into it willingly without coercion.

DocFrost72

I always wondered why people made crown crates out to be what they are not. They are designed as an "oh, I have 400 crowns left over from my sub this month? Nothing in the store at that price worth anything good...might as well grab a crate."

If you go into crown crates wanting something specific, you're using them wrong.

Kodrac

JD2013 wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

JD2013 wrote: »

- "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies.

You answered your own question.

Except I didn't.

Yes you did. i don't go to the grocery store and pay for a chance at a carton of milk. I don't shop on Amazon for a chance the item will be delivered to my house. If you can't see that "a chance" is anti-consumer you need help.

JD2013

Kodrac wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

JD2013 wrote: »

- "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies.

You answered your own question.

Except I didn't.

Yes you did. i don't go to the grocery store and pay for a chance at a carton of milk. I don't shop on Amazon for a chance the item will be delivered to my house. If you can't see that "a chance" is anti-consumer you need help.

Because food is an essential item.

Digital items in an MMO are not life necessities.

As an addendum - need help with what, exactly? The burden of independent thought separate from your thoughts?

Turelus

JD2013 wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Not to be that guy, but I would like to ask exactly how the Crown Crates are anti consumer?

JD2013 wrote: »

- "A chance."

No guarantee of good shinies.

You answered your own question.

Except I didn't.

Kinder eggs, crane machines, trading card packs, things like that. All have, at one time or another, offered a chance for fun shinies.

People play a game of chance. Again, people know they only have a chance and play anyway. Plenty of consumers buy into it willingly without coercion.

The trading card thing annoys me a little though because whilst yes you rarely got what you want if you did get something rare and you didn't want it you could trade it for something you did want.
Kinder Eggs are also chocolate which can be consumed (and tastes great!) the toys in them are also (at least when I was a kid) good quality and not useless junk (crate consumables).
Crane machines I actually agree with as being the same and they are in fact anti-consumer, but people gonna be dumb.