[DK Healer]Fragmented Shield from DK healer replace Igneous Shield on DK tank

Pulque

Summerset update significantly buffed DK healer, but one problem remains. As a choice for healer, Fragmented Shield now has 6s major mending that increases healing done by 25%. When a healer uses Fragmented Shield, a 2k shield, it replaces an existed Igneous Shield, a 12k shield on tank caster. That replacement mechanics pretty much excludes DK healer with Fragmented Shield from any raid group with DK tanks.
Same morph of Obsidian Shield doesn't replace each other, so DK healer has to make a compromise to use Igneous Shield. I suggest a little change: one morph can replace another only if the existed shield has lower shield amount. What's your thought?

Seraphayel

ZOS

PLEASE

fix this.

The Shield becomes an integral part of DK healers in Summerset and it shouldn't overwrite the significantly stronger shield applied by tanks.

Either make it stack or just not overwrite the other shield.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Thank you @Pulque for starting this thread. I have been railing on this in every thread about dk healers I have seen. This is why I will probably kick every dk healer I see if I am on my dk tank. I won't die because some healer decides it is more important to them to have major mending for 2.4 more seconds more then doing a resto heavy then me having a ward that is literally 7 times the size the healer gives out.

But in the interest of the conversation, @Maura_Neysa, bring your argument.

RoyJade

I see three solutions to this problem :
- first, allow the two morph to stack. Sadly, it could be easily exploited with a tank + offtank, and it will probably never be the case.
- second, only a bigger shield can erase the other, aka the OP idea. It's a good one, it'll just ask for some work from ZOS.
- third, the "easy" solution, make fragmented a solo shield. It may be a nerf for some playstyle but it would solve this problem ; the major mending duration may be increased a little more in this case.

In any case, this problem can't stay like this, DK healers already have too much trouble finding a place.

Bodycounter

100% yes to this. Stronger wards should never be overwritten by weaker ones. Being able to stack both wards isn‘t necessary. Wards should only overwrite if their value is higher than the current value of the one that was applied before.

Maura_Neysa

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Thank you @Pulque for starting this thread. I have been railing on this in every thread about dk healers I have seen. This is why I will probably kick every dk healer I see if I am on my dk tank. I won't die because some healer decides it is more important to them to have major mending for 2.4 more seconds more then doing a resto heavy then me having a ward that is literally 7 times the size the healer gives out.

But in the interest of the conversation, @Maura_Neysa, bring your argument.

A DK Healer with Major Mending is worth more then a a DK tanks Damage Shield. However, I am all for a Smaller damage shield not over riding a bigger one. Also find if they just dont over right at all. Force it to go to someone who does have one. Hell, I'm fine with them stacking the shields. Though that would be a mess in Cryodiil, Damage Shield Dragon Leap chains.

Either way, this is why even as is, its not the end of the world.

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(1-((Resistance 33,150/662)/100))*(1-(Blocking)50/100)*(1-(S&B/Frost Passive)20/100)*(1-(Iron Skin)10/100))*(1-(Defensive Posture)8/100))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(1-((50/100))*(1-(50/100)*(1-(20/100)*(1-(10/100))*(1-(8/100))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(1-(0.5))*(1-(0.5))*(1-(0.20))*(1-(0.1))*(1-(0.08))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(0.5)*0.5)*(0.8)*(0.9)*(0.92)
DAMAGE TAKEN=1,987

To get a 1,987 Major Mending bonus you need a 7,948.8 Base Heal
Combat Pray tool tip for 5,980 (1,495 extra with Major Mending)
Springs tool tip for 2,333 (6,999 total){583(1,749) extra with Major Mending}
Energy Orb 1,082 per 0.5 seconds (1,495 extra with Major Mending)
Energy Orb Synergy 5,322 (270 extra with Major Mending)
Cauterize 5,662 (1,415 extra with Major Mending)

A DK Healer with 100% Major Mending uptime on Healing Springs alone is worth more to a DK tanks 12,000k Damage Shield. Unless you think you can out Spam my Healing Springs with your Ingenious Shield. Keep in mind that Springs can have 3 stacks going and it out performs with just one stack.

lucky_Sage

one morph needs to scale of max magicka

ak_pvp

lucky_Sage wrote: »

one morph needs to scale of max magicka

Pls no. Shield stacking is cheesy as is, you don't want a shield stacker with good healing.

Onefrkncrzypope

Well it's understandable about being worried about the shield exchange but honestly any shield get eaten up by one boss attack so it really doesn't matter.

NBrookus

Please don't make it stack. PVP does not need group shields that stack.

exeeter702

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Thank you @Pulque for starting this thread. I have been railing on this in every thread about dk healers I have seen. This is why I will probably kick every dk healer I see if I am on my dk tank. I won't die because some healer decides it is more important to them to have major mending for 2.4 more seconds more then doing a resto heavy then me having a ward that is literally 7 times the size the healer gives out.

But in the interest of the conversation, @Maura_Neysa, bring your argument.

A DK Healer with Major Mending is worth more then a a DK tanks Damage Shield. However, I am all for a Smaller damage shield not over riding a bigger one. Also find if they just dont over right at all. Force it to go to someone who does have one. Hell, I'm fine with them stacking the shields. Though that would be a mess in Cryodiil, Damage Shield Dragon Leap chains.

Either way, this is why even as is, its not the end of the world.

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/662)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(1-((Resistance 33,150/662)/100))*(1-(Blocking)50/100)*(1-(S&B/Frost Passive)20/100)*(1-(Iron Skin)10/100))*(1-(Defensive Posture)8/100))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(1-((50/100))*(1-(50/100)*(1-(20/100)*(1-(10/100))*(1-(8/100))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(1-(0.5))*(1-(0.5))*(1-(0.20))*(1-(0.1))*(1-(0.08))
DAMAGE TAKEN=12,000*(0.5)*0.5)*(0.8)*(0.9)*(0.92)
DAMAGE TAKEN=1,987

To get a 1,987 Major Mending bonus you need a 7,948.8 Base Heal
Combat Pray tool tip for 5,980 (1,495 extra with Major Mending)
Springs tool tip for 2,333 (6,999 total){583(1,749) extra with Major Mending}
Energy Orb 1,082 per 0.5 seconds (1,495 extra with Major Mending)
Energy Orb Synergy 5,322 (270 extra with Major Mending)
Cauterize 5,662 (1,415 extra with Major Mending)

A DK Healer with 100% Major Mending uptime on Healing Springs alone is worth more to a DK tanks 12,000k Damage Shield. Unless you think you can out Spam my Healing Springs with your Ingenious Shield. Keep in mind that Springs can have 3 stacks going and it out performs with just one stack.

Bingo

ak_pvp wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

one morph needs to scale of max magicka

Pls no. Shield stacking is cheesy as is, you don't want a shield stacker with good healing.

You understand just because something scales off of a primary stat, it does not mean the formula the devs use for how potent said skill is remains the same across the board, it can vary significantly. Ie igneous / frag sheild scaling off of magicka does not automatically mean DKs will be throwing around hardened ward / annulment strong damage shields.

If fragmemted scaled off of max mag with an appropriate tooltip calc in place, and ingeous scaled off of max HP and only benefited the caster but had a more generous scaling formula as so it would never be overwritten (when used by a tank) by a dk healers fragmented sheild at 35k+magicka. This lets tanks continue to benefit from helping hamds and mountains blessing, and group shielding mitigation perk is shifted to the DK healer.

As it currently stands however, dk with major mending is overall more group mitigation than a dk tanks igneous shield.

Ragnarock41

NBrookus wrote: »

Please don't make it stack. PVP does not need group shields that stack.

that is 4k magicka for a 1k PvP shield. aren't you overreacting a little bit? magsorcs are running around with more shields than their actual hp...

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Please don't make it stack. PVP does not need group shields that stack.

that is 4k magicka for a 1k PvP shield. aren't you overreacting a little bit? magsorcs are running around with more shields than their actual hp...

Have a group of 6, 60k+ health dks that have 2k+ mag Regen, all giving each other 3k wards and able to hit green dragons blood buffed by major mending, that is why.

Ragnarock41

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Please don't make it stack. PVP does not need group shields that stack.

that is 4k magicka for a 1k PvP shield. aren't you overreacting a little bit? magsorcs are running around with more shields than their actual hp...

Have a group of 6, 60k+ health dks that have 2k+ mag Regen, all giving each other 3k wards and able to hit green dragons blood buffed by major mending, that is why.

and what are these 60k+ health 2k mag regen Dks are gonna do? Let me tell you. They're going to melt against the first destro raid.
They will do absolutely no damage and they will still die achieving absolutely nothing.

You could have 6 magplars spamming purge and bol instead. But sure, that is no problem at all.

Seraphayel

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Gina, it is very, very important that devs read this and find a solution. Please make them aware of the issue!

xiaiceyan

One would think that a simple implementation for this to be non-overriding is to prioritize Igni shield on current affected players other than healer. PLS make DK healer good for once in this game!

StoicSunbro

I think there is a misunderstanding by some in here over the use of the term "stack".

This is what I interpreted to be the proposed change by those above: (Numbers are examples)
When a tank uses igneous the group gets ~5k shield
Then a healer then uses fragmented (~2k) the group now has 7k total.
If the healer or tank recast it just refreshes the appropriate existing shield (like it does now) never surpassing that 7k value.
Further if there is another DK healer or tank in the group, any shield casts by them simply refreshes the appropriate existing shield never going past 7k total.

You should not have a zerg of DKs all shielding each other with unique fragmented stacking shields for 20k+ in PVP. I don't think that is the intent of the above posters and I agree that scenario shouldn't be possible.

What they want to fix is if a healer applies their 2k shield, a previous 5k shield from the tank is not overridden like it is now

RoyJade

StoicSunbro wrote: »

I think there is a misunderstanding by some in here over the use of the term "stack".

This is what I interpreted to be the proposed change by those above: (Numbers are examples)
When a tank uses igneous the group gets ~5k shield
Then a healer then uses fragmented (~2k) the group now has 7k total.
If the healer or tank recast it just refreshes the appropriate existing shield (like it does now) never surpassing that 7k value.
Further if there is another DK healer or tank in the group, any shield casts by them simply refreshes the appropriate existing shield never going past 7k total.

You should not have a zerg of DKs all shielding each other with unique fragmented stacking shields for 20k+ in PVP. I don't think that is the intent of the above posters and I agree that scenario shouldn't be possible.

What they want to fix is if a healer applies their 2k shield, a previous 5k shield from the tank is not overridden like it is now

Of course, every cast will refresh the last one.
But what about two pve DK tank, one main and one off, who stack health and have both morph ? It would give too much shield to the group, and that the exact reason why igneous was nerfed some month ago.
And on a pvp group, it'ld still be a 5-6k shield (double 5k after Cyro debuff) for a group, in top of the possible other shields. It may become dangerous for the health of the game.

That's why we need another solution, because if ZOS choose this one we'll probably see an another nerf to obsidian shield and morph soon.


Personally, I love the idea that the two shields are applied at the same time but without stacking. If the tank cast a 5k shield on a dps, then the healer use a 2k shield two second after the first, the dps will have 5k shield for the 4 remaining second then 2k for the two lasts. It would be the open door to a general boost to all shield value while applying that to every shields in the game : like that, shieldstacking would be gone once and for all.

ZOS_Mika

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