To The Player That Tried To Vote Kick A CP 173 Player From The Group In PUG Veteran White Gold Tower

JinMori

Great for you, but it's undeniable that it;'s very rare to find a good 170 cp player.

Also, what you described at planar inhibitor and molag kena is the result of extremely high dps, so high that the healer might not even had to heal much, so, i don't really buy it, for all we know he might have been a decent healer with awesome dps and tank.

Priyasekarssk

Jarryzzt wrote: »

DPS should not include dps idle time.

This statement confuses me.

Possibly because I've always approached DPS as a dual concept - dummy DPS vs. live DPS. The former represents sustainable potential; the latter, what you can actually do in an environment where you have to dodge attacks, work with broken or partial rotations, handle different immunities or resistances (and you people better pray to all the dark gods no-one ever makes an SMT MMO...), deal with stuns or position displacement, interrupt burn phases with encounter mechanics, and so on.

Granted, some boss encounters in this game might as well be dummy-like. Nevertheless. This is why I set my personal DPS benchmarks in vet dungeons against live opponents, because dummy DPS is not especially meaningful much of the time.

---

On topic. One, as people have pointed out, CP 173 healer is not the same as CP 173 DPS, especially since high DPS reduces the burden on the healer specifically. Two, statistically there are great CP 173 players and awful CP 700 players, and I've seen more than a bit of both.

Where I fault the idiot who tried to punt the healer and then ended up getting punted themselves is in that a number of vet dungeons, and WGT in particular, are very much about knowing the mechanics. CP might mean something in a trial or in content where you have to meet a DPS threshold (arguably vet Skoria, though I've had a couple of fights where we burned him down well after he blew up all of the islands - lots and lots of shield spells...). In vet HM WGT? Please...

...that said, statistically speaking idiots are not a small demographic in MMOs in general and MMO PUGs in particular.

You are correct. A 173 CP healer could be even far better than a CP 720 healer. Healer does not spam and have no sustain issues. Healer major role is buff/debuffs & protect other players from certain mechanics. Buffs and debuffs often doesn't scale with CPs to huge margin. Only survival. If he knows how to survive tougher contents , you are good to go. Same goes for tank. Good tanks & healers often know when to activate what buffs / debuffs and shields/synergies . Not mindless spamming. Some buff/debuffs often overlap between tanks and healers. I dont want to argue who does what. Its upto healer & tanks coordinate.

DPS often need to have constant rotation with good sustain for tougher contents. CP numbers often combined with good skill impacts DPS numbers to a huge margin, than the occasional and timely buffs & debuffs that healers and tanks do if survival is not an issue. A max CP does not guarantee he is good at skills. Thats everyone agree. CPs should be looked as a number not as a skill.

SteveCampsOut

The_Brosteen wrote: »

I bet this happened on pc na. I once had someone tell me they wouldnt do darkshade 2 on vet with anyone lower than 500cp or a dps with less than 30k.

Darkshade 2. This person felt it warranted 30k dps requirement. It ain't that serious. You could have 30k group dps and finish fine.

Just the mentality of alot of people on pc na, kinda ridiculous.

I have pretty much moved to EU full time because of the NA attitudes.

OblivionNW

I can remember this run pretty well (I was the 767 sorc DD), the Healer was a friend and we were queuing vWGT to farm SPC pieces.

The moment we loaded in the vote kick was initiated and the second it failed the player left the group, I couldn't even read his name with how fast he initiated the vote and then left.

The healer is excellent and could do better than some of the max cp players out there, a chance to prove ability should be given at least despite the cp level before just kicking people out.

Nestor

I always wait for the first trash mob group, if that takes 5 minutes, then it's later on. If that goes decently, I wait for the first boss. I don't care if someone or the group wipes there, as long as they listen and improve the second time around. But, if we wipe on the first boss and people don't want to listen, later on.

LeagueTroll

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Having a low CP healer is never going to be much of an issue. If that was a damage dealer, the run might have been a little different. I would've probably kept the healer but if there was a DD who was cp 173 in a vet DLC i would've voted to kick.

Glad your run went great. Always fun to get all those achievements at one time.

Agreed, I don’t kick healer tank in general as it is so easy to get by as a tank or healer on low tier content.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

JinMori wrote: »

Great for you, but it's undeniable that it;'s very rare to find a good 170 cp player.

Also, what you described at planar inhibitor and molag kena is the result of extremely high dps, so high that the healer might not even had to heal much, so, i don't really buy it, for all we know he might have been a decent healer with awesome dps and tank.

Well of course! I was the Tank. One of the DPS I know the other was a PUG. But your statement is not accurate about being rare to find a good CP 170 Player. I have known quite a few. Point of the Post is to give people a chance not just kick them because their CP doesn't meet your minimal requirement.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

josiahva wrote: »

Considering I first completed vWGT with 73CP as a tank...back before the nerfed the inhibitor into the ground countless times, I really dont understand why people automatically vote to kick anyone. I mean...I have sucessfully completed vROM with a CP173 and CP220 DPS just fine, people seem to act as if its the CP that matters...it doesn't matter very much honestly as long as its over 160...at that point its really up to player skill...and some people level toons almost entirely in dungeons(I know I do, even on my first toon, over half my time was spent in dungeons grinding to VR16) so some players may well surprise you.

Agree 100%.

SquareSausage

So the 2 pro DPS carried the lowbies? Usually the case.

deleted008293

I had a 350cp tank in vhof 4th boss that did better than a lot of max cp level tanks i've met.
I had a 250cp dd in vDSA that pulled more dps than some max cp level dps.
I've met max cp ppl that didnt know how to use a single skill or to use a proper gear and so on...

Judge no one... play with everyone... if a player is weak... help him improve and be positive if you can... try... and keep trying and if u keep failing appology and disband.

Sting864

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

No one will believe the comments, unless its proved. Majority of vet hardmode is DPS race. And DPS CP levels matter a lot in addition to his skills.

I believe people get kicked based on their CP a lot more than I believe there are DPS requirements for certain bosses... I believe the whole party can strategically burn a boss down and defend against what some consider "DPS checks..."

Rickhulters

I never do vet dungeons with a healers or randoms 3dd and 1 tank is the best way to go imo

Yolokin_Swagonborn

So two experienced DPS and tank, all with decent self heals carried a healer through the dungeon. GJ. Don't really see the story here.

Bigevilpeter

well if it was the dps that was cp 173 it wouldnt have been such a fun run I promise you

Malacthulhu

I do not understand where it is the ops problem if rando wants to kick or skip. If his luck with low cp players on runs has been 1 out of 10 good ones ,would you suggest he keep betting on red? Ofcourse, we will never know his intentions or reasoning just what the op assumes they were hoping for for validation in assumption, maybe?

ArpamiesFin

same happened to me last night. vet tempest and i assume the other 720cp voted to kick our level 42 healer, i voted no and we blasted through the dungeon pretty quick. we did wipe twice on the final boss but it wasnt the healers fault as i saw it

Prospero_ESO

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Yesterday I PUGGED Vet WGT and as soon as I ported in one of the DPS immediately voted to kick the CP 173 player which happened to be our Healer. Since we declined to kick the Healer that player immediately exited Group. I had Crown so I opted for a replacement DPS. Our Party looked like this: CP 1050 DK Tank, CP 173 Sorc Healer, CP 547 DPS (sorry, don't remember what class) and a CP 767 Magicka Sorc DPS. This turned out to be an amazing run. We blasted through the dungeon like we were in a race. When we got to the Planar Inhibitor the CP 767 DPS suggested we do the burn method on the boss. I agreed. We burned her down so quickly she never hit Blue phase and we never touched the Pinion. Quickest boss fight I had the pleasure of being part of in Vet WGT. We reached the final boss and read the scroll. Hard mode. Oh yeah. The CP 547 DPS slipped and died and the Attro spawned and locked me down. We wiped. We immediately respawned and read the scroll again. Hard Mode! We burned her quick and it was done. We ended up getting FIVE Achievements for that run including Speed Run and Hard mode and one I never knew existed: Surviving the fire of the Pinion Boss.

So for the guy or girl that instantly voted to kick someone due to low CP I hope you read this and think twice before instantly voting to kick a player. But you probably did us a favor since the replacement DPS had high skill level and a ton of damage. Give people a chance to see what they can do.

Well you were lucky that you got high cp and obviously very good dps which indirectly supported your healer just because he did not have to heal that much. I know where your are coming from but in general i would not run a dlc dungeon with someone below cp300 so i kind of understand why the kick happened.

maroite

Quick question that I can't seem to get clarity on. Are the Rank II dungeons also the vet dungeons? Or are their normal rank I and II dungeons and then Vet rank I and II dungeons?

My wife and I play as a team (Tank/Heal) and we're a little weary of joining a rank II dungeon because we're not sure we're ready. All of our rank I's seem so easy. We're around 125 CP at the moment.

FrancisCrawford

I recently GF PUGged WGT with two DPS who were under CP 160. One understood none of the mechanics coming in, but was eager to learn. The other said nothing in chat. (Text chat -- I play in PC/NA)

We didn't even wipe often. I don't think the other players ever did understand Planar Inhibitor mechanics, but the tank survived the blue phase and I closed the portals.

Of course, this was normal mode.

Sru

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

No one will believe the comments, unless its proved. Majority of vet hardmode is DPS race. And DPS CP levels matter a lot in addition to his skills.

I'll always take a DPS that is low CP but listens, learns mechanics, does not sit in stupid and avoids dying. Their DPS will end up higher than the under-CP DPS that knows everything but dies 5 times on the boss.

There are actually very few real DPS races - it becomes a race when you want to avoid the mechanics. Know the mechanics and deal with then and low CP DPS's manage fine.

fossoyer

WTG vet HM or ICP can be done without healer, so it's not a real problem to have a low cp healer if dd are good.

As tank, I always give a chance to low cp team, but most of the time, they quit the group at the end boss because they dont listen the strat or dont avoid aoe.

I notice that new 600-800 cp dont know strat of pledges too, dont know how to tank (dont pack adds, make dragon jump and spread adds in the room)....

zaria

maroite wrote: »

Quick question that I can't seem to get clarity on. Are the Rank II dungeons also the vet dungeons? Or are their normal rank I and II dungeons and then Vet rank I and II dungeons?

My wife and I play as a team (Tank/Heal) and we're a little weary of joining a rank II dungeon because we're not sure we're ready. All of our rank I's seem so easy. We're around 125 CP at the moment.

All dungeons has an normal and vet mode.
You select if you want to do vet or normal dungeon on the dungeon select screen, normal is in bottom.
You has to be above cp160 to do vet dlc this will change to 300 in summerset.

2 dungeons has more mechanic and tent to be harder than 1.
None of the normal dungeons is real hard, that is if you have the level to be allowed to do them and group is not hopeless you can do them, the easiest vet dungeons is a bit easier than the hardest normal dlc ones.

NupidStoob

The main benefit from CP in vet DLC dungeons are resistances and not DPS. The amount of healing required is just so much lower which allows to run with 3 DDs in higher CP groups. You can do any vet DLC with just 40k group DPS often even HMs, but it can get trickier here.

Burning the Planar inhibitor is not as difficult as many people seem to think. Your group only needs around 60k ST DPS to kill him before blue phase. Considering you can use prismatic enchant and healer can mostly DPS reaching this is easy. Most important is that nobody picks up the pinion, you run to inhibitor and straight up burn. Only incoming damage is from the pinion (shoots stuff at everyone if nobody picks it up) which can be addressed mostly with just a HoT. Other damage sources are red circles on the ground which explode after a second (sidestep), inhibitor jumping into the ground with growing red AOE below him (sidestep, usually only happens once when burning) and the few adds that come through portals (kite around inhibitor while dealing dps or have tank rangetaunt). If your group just barely does 60k DPS with healer involved in dding have the lowest DPS (most often healer, but he might not always get portals) that gets portals quickly take care of some of them while still mainly focusing on the boss. Important to know is that portals can be killed with ground dots. If for whatever reason the boss turns blue the tank will have to run while someone picks up pinion immediately. Tank will need some heals, but at this point boss should be really low HP and can just be finished off easily.

Prof_Bawbag

What others have said about lower cp healers. There's videos about of low CP healers (CP200ish) completing vMoL and anyone who think it is an issue, should go and search those videos out. DD's are different though.

Horker

id rather have a CP160 with a rotation then a 720+ doing light attacks

Abysswarrior45

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Yesterday I PUGGED Vet WGT and as soon as I ported in one of the DPS immediately voted to kick the CP 173 player which happened to be our Healer. Since we declined to kick the Healer that player immediately exited Group. I had Crown so I opted for a replacement DPS. Our Party looked like this: CP 1050 DK Tank, CP 173 Sorc Healer, CP 547 DPS (sorry, don't remember what class) and a CP 767 Magicka Sorc DPS. This turned out to be an amazing run. We blasted through the dungeon like we were in a race. When we got to the Planar Inhibitor the CP 767 DPS suggested we do the burn method on the boss. I agreed. We burned her down so quickly she never hit Blue phase and we never touched the Pinion. Quickest boss fight I had the pleasure of being part of in Vet WGT. We reached the final boss and read the scroll. Hard mode. Oh yeah. The CP 547 DPS slipped and died and the Attro spawned and locked me down. We wiped. We immediately respawned and read the scroll again. Hard Mode! We burned her quick and it was done. We ended up getting FIVE Achievements for that run including Speed Run and Hard mode and one I never knew existed: Surviving the fire of the Pinion Boss.

So for the guy or girl that instantly voted to kick someone due to low CP I hope you read this and think twice before instantly voting to kick a player. But you probably did us a favor since the replacement DPS had high skill level and a ton of damage. Give people a chance to see what they can do.

I'd have kicked the low cp too. Better safe than sorry and I don't want to waste my time on possible wipes.

Ectheliontnacil

Doesn't change the fact that the cp 173 was most likely useless.

exiars10

LSKidson wrote: »

vamp_emily wrote: »

I'm sure it would be a different story if the low CP was a dps instead of a healer.

I don't kick any players from dungeons but when I see a low DPS CP character in a Vet DLC dungeon I know it will not end well.

Pretty much this healers aren't needed anymore in dungeons. Your run went fine because you don't need a healer for any dungeon in this game.

Especially you don't need a healer in Darkshade Caverns II.

GreenhaloX

I wonder if we will see.. "For those that try to kick (in the 300 CP range).." after Summerset patch? Ha ha

josiahva wrote: »

Considering I first completed vWGT with 73CP as a tank...back before the nerfed the inhibitor into the ground countless times, I really dont understand why people automatically vote to kick anyone. I mean...I have sucessfully completed vROM with a CP173 and CP220 DPS just fine, people seem to act as if its the CP that matters...it doesn't matter very much honestly as long as its over 160...at that point its really up to player skill...and some people level toons almost entirely in dungeons(I know I do, even on my first toon, over half my time was spent in dungeons grinding to VR16) so some players may well surprise you.

Interesting.. but hard to believe on my part and from my experience. I have yet to have any smooth run in any of the DLC dungeons on vet with anyone under 400 CP. Even with a good healer, they're wiping. Even when I was 501 CP tank back in the day, peeps under 400 CPs always die left and right. Heck, with my 720 CP tank, peeps under 400 CP are still dying. Aside from the stupid reds, it's those DoTs and AoE getting them. Seems more of those are being thrown with DLC dungeons which can be a challenge to mitigate without sufficient CP plused up on the damage mitigation portion of the constellations. They don't have enough points into damage mitigation, and even the healer was having a challenge. Then, if the healer wipes, there they go also.

Also, I can't count how many times among the many guilds I have been in that guildies continuously called out for toons after toons because some have just quit and left or kicked. Those vet dungeons were difficult enough when I was in the 500 CP ranges. Furthermore, I can't count how many times I watch toons/players under 300 CP struggling while soloing just dolmens. Thus, from my experience, it is hard to digest that anyone with 73, 173 or 220 CP will have completed those vet dungeons just fine. Unless.. we just have a completely different understanding of what the definition of just fine is.. ha ha

Merlin13KAGL

If it's a normal run (not Speed Run, uber hard mode DLC, etc), if someone's kicking before even giving the group a chance to show what they're capable of, they're likely missing out on some potentially excellent players.

Some have multiple accounts, changed platforms, servers, etc.

Hell, they may be able to teach you something about the instance your in.

Skill counts and experience counts for more than CP ever will. If you're making assumptions based on half a dozen different factors, you're likely to be very wrong.

It's called group play for a reason. I'd rather be able to teach someone at a lower level and have something take a little longer, knowing 300CP's later they'll be even better than they are now than have a Max CP no-clue that refuses to listen and adjust because they think they've already got the entire situation figured out ahead of time.