Mechanical Acuity and nightblade execute should be balanced

DeliCreep

I was very surprised when I read the patch notes because acuity wasn't mentioned at all, currently it's the best magicka dps set in the game, it's better than anything else and totally killed diversity. Also magicka nightblade execute is still a lot cheaper than magicka sorcerer execute for example, its cost should be raised to around 2.5k magicka. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Erraln

Wait, you WANT them to ruin sets on purpose?

DeliCreep

Erraln wrote: »

Wait, you WANT them to ruin sets on purpose?

You got me.

Avran_Sylt

Don't forget sorc has a passive execute, that has twice the chance to proc with the sorcs execute (initial damage + execute).

JohnStorm

It's also the best set for stamina dps. Everyone thinks the set is overpreforming and are expecting it to be nerfed.

casparian

Before Acuity, there was one crafted set that would get magicka DDs top tier performance (Juli). Now there are two. It's unclear to me how that killed diversity. Even if you disagree that Juli is still great for magicka DDs, that leaves us in exactly the same place we were before: only one crafted set is top-tier for magicka DDs (just now a different one than before). Even if that's true, it seems fine, since Juli had been meta since Orsinium, and changes in the meta are a healthy thing for an MMO.

DeliCreep

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Don't forget sorc has a passive execute, that has twice the chance to proc with the sorcs execute (initial damage + execute).

Yes, but the proc chance is very low and it is unrealiable (its dps is also pretty low most of the time).

casparian wrote: »

Before Acuity, there was one crafted set that would get magicka DDs top tier performance (Juli). Now there are two. It's unclear to me how that killed diversity. Even if you disagree that Juli is still great for magicka DDs, that leaves us in exactly the same place we were before: only one crafted set is top-tier for magicka DDs (just now a different one than before). Even if that's true, it seems fine, since Juli had been meta since Orsinium, and changes in the meta are a healthy thing for an MMO.

Yes, changes in the meta are healthy, that's why I am asking for it.

casparian

DeliCreep wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Don't forget sorc has a passive execute, that has twice the chance to proc with the sorcs execute (initial damage + execute).

Yes, but the proc chance is very low and it is unrealiable (its dps is also pretty low most of the time).

casparian wrote: »

Before Acuity, there was one crafted set that would get magicka DDs top tier performance (Juli). Now there are two. It's unclear to me how that killed diversity. Even if you disagree that Juli is still great for magicka DDs, that leaves us in exactly the same place we were before: only one crafted set is top-tier for magicka DDs (just now a different one than before). Even if that's true, it seems fine, since Juli had been meta since Orsinium, and changes in the meta are a healthy thing for an MMO.

Yes, changes in the meta are healthy, that's why I am asking for it.

No, you're asking for the meta to go back to what it was. If Acuity is nerfed, we'll all just go back to using Julianos and there will still be one crafted set that outperforms all the others.

Lynx7386

DeliCreep wrote: »

I was very surprised when I read the patch notes because acuity wasn't mentioned at all, currently it's the best magicka dps set in the game, it's better than anything else and totally killed diversity. Also magicka nightblade execute is still a lot cheaper than magicka sorcerer execute for example, its cost should be raised to around 2.5k magicka. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Sorcs have two passive executes that cost literally nothing. Mages fury is also an aoe.

Don't compare Apples to oranges

Avran_Sylt

On my 55K Mag 1.1K SD (6.3K) Sorc I got a Tooltip for Endless Fury at 3488 then 12408 (15,896) if hp under 20% after 4 sec, with 2850 mag restore on kill at 1933 cost.

On my 37K NB 2.9K SD (6.4K + .4 (Warmaiden)) Nightblade I got a Tooltip for 4856 turned 19,424 if under 25% hp with 1876 Mag restore on kill/assist within 2s at a 1645 cost.

Going purely by damage, Impale has a 22% higher Tooltip value than Fury. And a cost increase of 22% is more in line. Not 50%

However, that is only looking at Tooltips.

Impale requires enemy to be at threshold, Endless Fury requires it to be reached within 4s. (Less of a concern in PvE)
Fury has a greater Mag Restore (Assuming solo) (Less of a concern on Parsing)
Impale has a 5% higher threshold.
Fury has a 6% chance at additional Execute each damage instance.
Impale has 10% increased Crit Damage
Fury has 5% increased Damage (additional multiplier against crit)

I want to say the 5% higher threshold and Additional execute cancel each other out. As well as the Crit Damage and General Damage.

Therefore, if anything, I would only suggest a cost increase of at most 22% (2006), and not 50%. Less, as my Nightblade was running Warmaiden/DWSwords for those Tooltips, and my Sorc was just a max mag stacking Petsorc.

These observations are horrendous, as I should be wearing similar gear and having similar stats/passives when comparing, but I think you'll find that the disparity is not that great.

If you want to figure out how much it should or should not be increased, then you do that. I'm simply proving your initial suggestion invalid.

MyKillv2.0

So what everyone is saying is that they should nerf magdens? Got it

Itzmichi

DeliCreep wrote: »

I was very surprised when I read the patch notes because acuity wasn't mentioned at all, currently it's the best magicka dps set in the game, it's better than anything else and totally killed diversity. Also magicka nightblade execute is still a lot cheaper than magicka sorcerer execute for example, its cost should be raised to around 2.5k magicka. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Why would you even ask for that? Wanna ruin the game for everybody so we all hit the bosses next Patch with wooden swords and water pistols?

Lynx7386

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

On my 55K Mag 1.1K SD (6.3K) Sorc I got a Tooltip for Endless Fury at 3488 then 12408 (15,896) if hp under 20% after 4 sec, with 2850 mag restore on kill at 1933 cost.

On my 37K NB 2.9K SD (6.4K + .4 (Warmaiden)) Nightblade I got a Tooltip for 4856 turned 19,424 if under 25% hp with 1876 Mag restore on kill/assist within 2s at a 1645 cost.

Going purely by damage, Impale has a 22% higher Tooltip value than Fury. And a cost increase of 22% is more in line. Not 50%

However, that is only looking at Tooltips.

Impale requires enemy to be at threshold, Endless Fury requires it to be reached within 4s. (Less of a concern in PvE)
Fury has a greater Mag Restore (Assuming solo) (Less of a concern on Parsing)
Impale has a 5% higher threshold.
Fury has a 6% chance at additional Execute each damage instance.
Impale has 10% increased Crit Damage
Fury has 5% increased Damage (additional multiplier against crit)

I want to say the 5% higher threshold and Additional execute cancel each other out. As well as the Crit Damage and General Damage.

Therefore, if anything, I would only suggest a cost increase of at most 22% (2006), and not 50%. Less, as my Nightblade was running Warmaiden/DWSwords for those Tooltips, and my Sorc was just a max mag stacking Petsorc.

These observations are horrendous, as I should be wearing similar gear and having similar stats/passives when comparing, but I think you'll find that the disparity is not that great.

If you want to figure out how much it should or should not be increased, then you do that. I'm simply proving your initial suggestion invalid.

I'll repeat myself: impale is single target. Fury is aoe. Fury can also proc the passive execute for sorcs for additional damage. Quit comparing Apples to oranges.

Mystrius_Archaion

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

On my 55K Mag 1.1K SD (6.3K) Sorc I got a Tooltip for Endless Fury at 3488 then 12408 (15,896) if hp under 20% after 4 sec, with 2850 mag restore on kill at 1933 cost.

On my 37K NB 2.9K SD (6.4K + .4 (Warmaiden)) Nightblade I got a Tooltip for 4856 turned 19,424 if under 25% hp with 1876 Mag restore on kill/assist within 2s at a 1645 cost.

Going purely by damage, Impale has a 22% higher Tooltip value than Fury. And a cost increase of 22% is more in line. Not 50%

However, that is only looking at Tooltips.

Impale requires enemy to be at threshold, Endless Fury requires it to be reached within 4s. (Less of a concern in PvE)
Fury has a greater Mag Restore (Assuming solo) (Less of a concern on Parsing)
Impale has a 5% higher threshold.
Fury has a 6% chance at additional Execute each damage instance.
Impale has 10% increased Crit Damage
Fury has 5% increased Damage (additional multiplier against crit)

I want to say the 5% higher threshold and Additional execute cancel each other out. As well as the Crit Damage and General Damage.

Therefore, if anything, I would only suggest a cost increase of at most 22% (2006), and not 50%. Less, as my Nightblade was running Warmaiden/DWSwords for those Tooltips, and my Sorc was just a max mag stacking Petsorc.

These observations are horrendous, as I should be wearing similar gear and having similar stats/passives when comparing, but I think you'll find that the disparity is not that great.

If you want to figure out how much it should or should not be increased, then you do that. I'm simply proving your initial suggestion invalid.

I'll repeat myself: impale is single target. Fury is aoe. Quit comparing Apples to oranges.

The explosion of Mages Fury only does the huge damage on the target, not the AoE splash. It is still mostly single target, especially since the range is so short.

Also, you can still compare an AoE ability to a single target ability when used against a single target. That's how you decide whether to use the single target ability or stick with the AoE.
If you consider the AoE as a big part of it though then Mages Fury may need a nerf.

Alcast

I do not think Acuity will survive this PTS.

Aedaryl

Alcast wrote: »

I do not think Acuity will survive this PTS.

Can you explain why ?

Because it will be nerfed ?

Because there are new sets or combinasion that will be better ?

Marcus684

Aedaryl wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I do not think Acuity will survive this PTS.

Can you explain why ?

Because it will be nerfed ?

Because there are new sets or combinasion that will be better ?

There seems to be a pattern where new sets introduced by a DLC/expansion are a bit OP, so that everyone that wants BiS gear will pony up the cash to get it. Later, ZOS will “balance” it down, often right before or with the next DLC. I expect MA to get the same treatment in preparation for the new OP sets coming with Summerset. Just my opinion, though.

Juhasow

casparian wrote: »

Before Acuity, there was one crafted set that would get magicka DDs top tier performance (Juli). Now there are two. It's unclear to me how that killed diversity. Even if you disagree that Juli is still great for magicka DDs, that leaves us in exactly the same place we were before: only one crafted set is top-tier for magicka DDs (just now a different one than before). Even if that's true, it seems fine, since Juli had been meta since Orsinium, and changes in the meta are a healthy thing for an MMO.

Until mundus stone changes TBS was meta for quite some time.

jbjondeaueb17_ESO

SPC is still meta in most of the trials for healers after almost 3 years, a bit less for Ebon on at least one tank.
I'm honestly sad about that. I'd prefer more changes.

glavius

They could increase cooldown like 1 second to bring it in line. Or 2 if needed. It's a very easy set to balance in that regard.

ccfeeling

Alcast wrote: »

I do not think Acuity will survive this PTS.

Alcast ... no ... please tell me you are just kidding ...

Just like Avran_Sylt , I have similar result .

DeliCreep , endless fury is sorc crazy AOE finishing in PVE , impale good at single target , do you agree ?

I believe Juli damage flat value is much better than MA , it depends on the build critical rate .

Eldartar

Don't dump your Julianos sets just yet guys and gals ...............

But I don't see any valid reason to even think about Nerfing Acuity.

JohnStorm

Eldartar wrote: »

But I don't see any valid reason to even think about Nerfing Acuity.

What about the fact that it is the best set for BOTH stamina and magicka DPS?

Mannox

MA gives burst builds a proc window. If they nerf MA they might as well nerf all ambush builds but then where is the fun in that? If you're upset you're getting owned but don't want to counter play then I'm at a loss. Either you adapt or don't but in my opinion ZOS should be expanding on ambush. The same way they should be expanding on its counters and other build as well. My concern is that ZOS doesn't have an intimate understanding on the types of PVP at play and only claim to balance from a spreadsheet when really they're just making corporate happy. Maybe that's another argument but nerfing MA isn't a solution. The same way a lot of the stupid nerfs they've made already are failed attempts at balance. Sometimes a complete failure of logic.

Mureel

JohnStorm wrote: »

Eldartar wrote: »

But I don't see any valid reason to even think about Nerfing Acuity.

What about the fact that it is the best set for BOTH stamina and magicka DPS?

That's a reason NOT TO! Not like the other side is all *Mag sets op omg!*

Qbiken

JohnStorm wrote: »

Eldartar wrote: »

But I don't see any valid reason to even think about Nerfing Acuity.

What about the fact that it is the best set for BOTH stamina and magicka DPS?

Since it´s a fact I´ll assume you´ve a source on that??

JohnStorm

Qbiken wrote: »

Since it´s a fact I´ll assume you´ve a source on that??

Yes, check out every 70k+ raid parse on youtube. Some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH3lXHI0vGQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UZ5KINQiMM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk7lPsPsNIo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvrgynNbVgw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaDwyOpLLa8

Feanor

Since MA requires the player to play with the proc in mind it’s ok for the set to be better than Julianos. The set that has a higher skill requirement deserves to be better.

JohnStorm

Feanor wrote: »

Since MA requires the player to play with the proc in mind it’s ok for the set to be better than Julianos. The set that has a higher skill requirement deserves to be better.

Play with the proc? Dude, you literally just front bar the set and it procs when all your dots are down and you are using your spammable... Julianos isn't a set that you should be front barring only.

Feanor

JohnStorm wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Since MA requires the player to play with the proc in mind it’s ok for the set to be better than Julianos. The set that has a higher skill requirement deserves to be better.

Play with the proc? Dude, you literally just front bar the set and it procs when all your dots are down and you are using your spammable... Julianos isn't a set that you should be front barring only.

Yes but that’s exactly the point. Julianos works on everything all the time. MA has requirements. You have to play it correctly for it to be better.

DeliCreep

Mannox wrote: »

MA gives burst builds a proc window. If they nerf MA they might as well nerf all ambush builds but then where is the fun in that? If you're upset you're getting owned but don't want to counter play then I'm at a loss

I'm not upset about getting owned, I dont care about pvp. The 2.5k cost is still fine as a base cost, with passives it would be around 2.1-2.2k. Mage's Wrath has an aoe component which deals very low damage and has short range, and again, the passive execute only works under 15% hp, has insanely low proc chance and is unreliable, and we have only a few sources that can proc it. Magblade execute costs less, deals more damage and is better at actually executing something