Are the Daedra the true deities of the ES universe?

FatalErrorDriveB

So based on books I've found I've learned that the Aedra are killable; even if it's very difficult to do so, but the Daedra are fully immortal as well as equal in power to the Aedra. Keep in mind I'm talking about the princes. So based on that wouldn't that make the Aedra; like the Tribunal, just pretenders, and the Daedra the real deities of the Elder Scroll universe?

PrayingSeraph

No, Aedra are et'ada like Daedra. Difference is that they gave up their physical bodies to create Nirn. They still fully exist though, like a soul out of its body.

The highest level of deities were Anu and Padomay, and possibly the godhead being the highest. Cant remember if the Godhead was *only* in MK lore or not. Granted, it would be cool if it was true because then it would give the Alessian Order some credence.

Also, if I remember correctly, Daedric Princes can technically be killed

FatalErrorDriveB

In one of the Lore books I found stated that Aedra; the one killed by the tribunal, I can't remember his name, can be killed fully, but the most that can happen to a Daedric Prince is that it can only be banished.

Are the major Aedra; like the 8, the same as the Daedra? Because I also remember reading once that the Daedra and Aedra were the same, or am I just misremembering everything?

In case you can't tell I'm very confused on this. Thanks for your input!

PrayingSeraph

The term Aedra and Daedra are elven in nature, meaning "Our Ancestors" and "Not our ancestors" respectively. These beings are et'ada, the creations of Anu and Padomay, the primordial deities. When the Et'ada Lorkhan devised the plans for mundus and asked the et'ada for assistance, he failed to mention the fact that creation of mundus wod consume the bodies and much power of the et'ada who had partaken in its creation. Hence why mer view him as a trickster god. There were three groups of et'ada. The Daedra, who initially refused to partake in Mundus's creation and therefor lost no power, the Magna Ge led by Magnus who were et'ada who contributed some but fled when they found out the truth of the cost, and the aedra, the et'ada who even when finding out the true cost, decided to sacrifice their bodies for creation's sake. The Aedra were split into two groups, the 8 Divines being the et'ada who gave their entire bodies to create mundus, and the elnohfey aka Earth Bones, who settled on mundus and gave life to well..life. They bred and each generation lost more divinity, leading to the races we have. Y'ffre, the god of nature Mer especially Bosmer worship, was one of these beings. He is believed to be the will nature itself.

The starts and sun in the sky are actually holes punctured by the Magna Ge when they fled to Aetherius, with the sun being the biggest hole punched in by Magnus. The Magna Ge now reside in Aetherius, a realm of realms made of light and magic, which flow into mundus thanks to these holes.

Now there are exceptions. The Daedric Prince Meridia was intially one of the magna ge, who apparently consorted with daedra and was banished to Oblivion, which she became the Daedric Prince Meridia.

Daedric Prince Malacath was once an Aedra called Trinimac, who challenged Boethiah and was consumed, then *** out as Malacath. His devout aldmer followers were also transformed into Orsimer, commonly called Orcs. If I remember correctly, inside Malacath's realm of Oblivion lies a beautiful garden that serves as a reminder of Malacath's past self as Trinimac.

So I just summed up the basics. It can get a LOT more complicated and lore fans always debate the specifics into oblivion.

FatalErrorDriveB

Wow! That cleared things up a lot, thank you! I think I finally understand.

Saphayla

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

So I just summed up the basics. It can get a LOT more complicated and lore fans always debate the specifics into oblivion.

Haha, nice joke there about oblivion

Danikat

Also the Aedra who was destroyed - Lorkhan - isn't dead, at least not in the same sense a mortal can die. He just cant reform.

His heart was ripped from his body, but the other Aedra found they were unable to destroy it so they fired it across Tamriel, and when it landed off the coast it formed Red Mountain - the volcano in the middle of what's now Vvardenfell. Some stories say his body became Nirn's two moons, and his spirit is left to wander creation.

(Some stories say he allowed this to happen so his heart could be 'given' to Nirn as part of the process of it's creation. Others say it was a punishment for tricking the Aedra into creating and entering the physical world.)

The heart very definitely still exists and still contains a lot of power because it's a major part of the story to TES III. Hypothetically it might be possible for someone to reunite Lorkhans heart, body and spirit (or at least his heart and spirit) and then he'd be able to reform like the other Aedra and Daedra can.

FatalErrorDriveB

Wow, there's a lot of great information here! Thanks everyone, this has very informative on the Divines and Daedra, and their positions.

Waffennacht

Also - when someone achieves CHIM they can ascend to Godhood. Aka the level of Akatosh and Sithis

Talos achieved such Godhood and changed Cyrodiil from a jungle to the region we know now. (The change went throughout time)

Vivec has CHIM but makes the choice not to ascend

The Dwemer possibly tried to achieve CHIM by force via technology and the red heart but theoretically could have failed. When you fail CHIM you get zero summed (aka poof)

The whole thing with Lork was he was created by Sithis to fool the Spirits into giving up their existence (going back to the ever-chaos).

Lork is not really a spirit like the rest. Anyway, trickster by nature, he goes against Sithis and convinces the spirits to create a mortal realm. Thing is, a lot spirits hate it, and don't really get the real purpose. The real purpose of Nirn is to give spirits a chance at CHIM - when a spirit realizes it's all a dream after climbing a Tower and looking upon the world, if at that moment the spirit can retain individualism and the knowledge it is a dreamer it achieves CHIM, if the spirit thinks it's just apart of the dream, it gets zero summed (poof)

So Lork essentially got Nirn made so the spirits could become as powerful as Sithis or Akatosh. But most didn't know/didn't believe/care and wanted to back as it was (Magnus) so after a few left the world settled down with less magic and more physics (for easier understanding) and boom, you got Nirn of today

Waffennacht

Ok it's best to think of it like worlds within worlds.

Outer most world - Anu, Padomay, and Nir

In the beginning was Anu, to know himself beyond I think therefore I am he made Padomay. Through their interactions they create Nir.

Nir and Anu hook up and Nir births the 12 worlds (spirit worlds, fyi The Hist is created now)

Jealous Padomay pwns the 12 worlds and Nir. Anu puts the pieces of the 12 worlds into a single one (this is current spirit world - where Molag Bal and the like chill). Anu and Padomay pwn each other into non existence but before they go they each leave a predecessor (think King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. In Dragon Ball) Akatosh and Sithis.

Ok so now you have Sithis and Akatosh with the spirit world below them.

Now in Spirit world Lork and the others create Nirn.

So there's where you get Akatosh Sithis level, then Molag Bal meridia level, then Vestige Khajiit High Elf level.

With the bottom level being able to leap frog to the top Via CHIM

PrayingSeraph

Keep in mind OP that views on this topic will definitely vary as some hold MK's lore as gospel while others like me reject all of his lore unless Bethesda incorporates it. MK is Michael Kirkbride if you dont know, who used to be an Elder Scrolls writer and when he left, he scontinued to write lore, much of it having very mixed reactions.

If I remember correctly, the idea that the TES universe is a dream(with the godhead being the dreamer) is non official MK lore. But I could be wrong on that.

FatalErrorDriveB

I knew TES had a lot of lore, but I had no idea it was so detailed, thanks, everyone!

@PrayingSeraph That's good to know, thank you. I'd seen people mention MK before, but I didn't know what that meant, I appreciate you explaining.

ArchMikem

There are no "dieties", only powerful beings. Divinity and Religion are mortal constructs to help explain incomprehensible power or existence, like how a primitive mind would view science as magic. But being able to end doesnt make one a "pretender". Aedra and Daedra both have inherent power. Those such as the Tribunal are more so pretenders because they siphon their power from something. Their power is not their own.

PrayingSeraph

ArchMikem wrote: »

There are no "dieties", only powerful beings. Divinity and Religion are mortal constructs to help explain incomprehensible power or existence, like how a primitive mind would view science as magic. But being able to end doesnt make one a "pretender". Aedra and Daedra both have inherent power. Those such as the Tribunal are more so pretenders because they siphon their power from something. Their power is not their own.

Errr mate, if we use that logic literally any deity in fiction or real life would just be "powerful beings". You're essentially nullifying the very word deity. Yes the Aedra and Daedra are deities. Heck they are more powerful than many real life mythological deities.

Religion in the case of Elder Scrolls are not due to trying to understand the the deities, the races of mundus understand their deities fairly well. There's nothing to suggest in lore that daedric or aedric religions were mortal constructs born out of ignorance and lack of understanding. In this universe mortals can literally talk and converse with their deities at times

ArchMikem

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

There are no "dieties", only powerful beings. Divinity and Religion are mortal constructs to help explain incomprehensible power or existence, like how a primitive mind would view science as magic. But being able to end doesnt make one a "pretender". Aedra and Daedra both have inherent power. Those such as the Tribunal are more so pretenders because they siphon their power from something. Their power is not their own.

In this universe mortals can literally talk and converse with their deities at times

Being able to converse with them doesn't provide proof of them being a "Deity" or God, only that they are some form of Being and they exist. Basically the term "God" is given to someone of such immense power it's difficult to understand just how powerful. Words/names like that are but placeholders or titles.

I don't see the Daedra or Aedra as Godly figures or Divine forces, but just inherently powerful beings.

PrayingSeraph

ArchMikem wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

There are no "dieties", only powerful beings. Divinity and Religion are mortal constructs to help explain incomprehensible power or existence, like how a primitive mind would view science as magic. But being able to end doesnt make one a "pretender". Aedra and Daedra both have inherent power. Those such as the Tribunal are more so pretenders because they siphon their power from something. Their power is not their own.

In this universe mortals can literally talk and converse with their deities at times

Being able to converse with them doesn't provide proof of them being a "Deity" or God, only that they are some form of Being and they exist. Basically the term "God" is given to someone of such immense power it's difficult to understand just how powerful. Words/names like that are but placeholders or titles.

I don't see the Daedra or Aedra as Godly figures or Divine forces, but just inherently powerful beings.

Mate, a deity by definition are inherently powerful beings. The et'Ada are most certainly divine and godly beings. Your definition basically reduces every fictional and real life mythological deity as "a powerful being". You reject the word usage of deity\god yet define these beings as how deities\gods are defined. Then it just becomes pure semantics. However my general point is that saying that there are no deities in ES-verse is misleading to the OP, since they most certainly fit the definition of those words and are worshipped as such.

Anu and Padomay created the Aurbis, and the Aedra are the creators of the Mundus. The daedra and magna ge are the same race as the Aedra, but simply chose differently, and are masters of their reality\realm and spheres of influence. Not only that, the daedric races worship their respective princes and see them as gods, and they are not mortals. We also have to remember that in the Merethic era, even aedra walked among their followers who worshipped them, and these promoted themselves as gods. Trinimac and Boethiah were particularly involved with aldmer, and directly led the religions devoted to them.

Nelson_Rebel

It seems you want the knitty gritty answer. But the truth is a bit more complicated


Aedra can be killed, fully, but the effort of doing so would be monumental in the actual execution of the task. These beings are still incredibly powerful and most likely have some sort of magical failsafe to transport their souls if they are exposed to true death.


As far as I know, no Aedra has been fully killed off yet.

Lorkhan is a Special case and he doesn't follow the same laws. Lorkhan actually FUSED his being with the Mundus itself, so he technically is part of mundus itself. Therefore he is just like the Daedra in that he cannot be destroyed unless the Plane of Mundus itself is destroyed.


Planes of Oblivion are different, In that I dont believe they CAN be destroyed. Thats why the daedric Princes are invulnerable to death. They can be defeated or banished, But no, they cannot actually die. They are truly immortal

Bruccius

It all depends on how you look at things.

The Aedra are directly responsible for the creation of Mundus. Without them, there wouldn't be Nirn, no Tamriel, no races of Man, nor races of Mer. In this sense, they are the true deities.

However, compared to the Daedra, the Aedra have close to no power. This is because they lost most of their power while creating the Mundus. The Daedra on the other hand, chose to stay out of the creation, those that did participate, but left, are the reason stars exist.

Because Daedra kept more of their power, their influence on the Mundus is greater, hence why people are able to summon the Daedra, and why the Daedra have artifacts which can be obtained by people on Tamriel.

Pheefs

Bruccius wrote: »

Daedra have artifacts which can be obtained by people on Tamriel.

The Aedra have Artifacts too.

& heck yes the Daedra are "true" deities... the Daedra aren't all bad & the Aedra CERTAINLY aren't all good!
they do seem to have really different rules though, especially as relates to the mortal plane

Eporem

Here is a lore book of them as well

Varana

A deity is by definition a powerful being or spirit, often either venerated by people or at least acknowledged as a deity.
(Also, it's deity.)
Which powerful beings are considered divine, is mostly a question of definition.
In TES, some consider the Tribunal or Tiber Septim to be gods, others deny that. Whether they are or not, depends on how you define "god".
Even in the real world, that holds true. Ancient Greeks and Romans pushed the boundary for "powerful being" so low that they built temples to their kings and emperors. The Abrahamic religions pushed it so high that they acknowledge only one God with a lot of traits starting with "all-".

Nelson_Rebel

I'd agree to some extent it depends on Definition what you believe to be "God"


The Aedra sacrificed their Immortality and a good chunk of their power to create the Mundus Plane. They can be killed, but as of yet none have. Besides the "Lesser Aedra" at least. They died when they first walked the Mundus and eventually died

The Daedra didn't. So they retained their immortality and lost NONE of their power. Therefore they cannot die and are nigh-invincible baring confrontation with Aedric Powers combined with mortals can best a Prince. See the Tribunal for proof of that. They beat Dagon and Molag Bal. And the vestige techincally


What confuses me is the whole "divine contract"
Cleary the Deadra ARE capable creating things, they create relics, they create creatures and beasts. Their Planes of Oblivion seem creations in and of themselves even.

Bruccius

Pheefs wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Daedra have artifacts which can be obtained by people on Tamriel.

The Aedra have Artifacts too.

& heck yes the Daedra are "true" deities... the Daedra aren't all bad & the Aedra CERTAINLY aren't all good!
they do seem to have really different rules though, especially as relates to the mortal plane

Ehhh, not really. Much more in an indirect sense, they don't ''take a part of themselves and form it into something else'', like the Daedric Princes do.

The Daedra aren't all bad? Only Meridia is a good Daedra, the rest, not so much. I can't recall a single Aedra who was bad either.

Marginis

A lot of this is hard to say, because, as you all very well know, in-game references to this subject are all indirect and from biased sources (Dunmer love Daedra, Altmer hate Daedra, generally). We also have other out of game references to go off of, and we can speculate from real-life mythology that the lore is based off of. But, as we don't really have direct knowledge of it, we are mostly speculating. As far as who the "true" deities are, like I was saying, it depends on who you are. Different races are said to have spawned from different gods, therefore which god-like figure you consider the "right" one depends on your perspective. Many, like the Dunmer, might consider the Daedra the "true" deities, whereas the Altmer might consider the "true" deities to be the Aedra. My guess is that really, we're just talking about super powerful entities that all exist beside one another, in some form or another. This is all beside the question of if we consider the question of "divinity", or the question of if celestial bodies (like realms) can also be sentient entities (like gods) or not, because at certain points in the lore it's very hard to differentiate magic from myth.