Stamina Meta due to Reverse slice and Executioner

hesobad

It's very obvious BGs are completely dominated by reverse slice / executioner spamming stam classes. An execute ability that can be used at 50% health is crazy to me. Literally every stam class uses the same rotation: stampede (or other snare / cap closer), some debuff ability (surprise attack, sub assault, etc), dizzying swing, Dawnbreaker, Execute, Execute, Execute, Execute. How is this intended gameplay? I play stam NB and Stam Warden because the kind of things I can do are just unfair with very little counter play to it. I really hope they nerf this execute, I don't see why it has to be usable at 50% life. In no CP environments it is COMPLETELY broken. A magic class can not shield spam enough to survive once they hit 50% life with everyone and their grandmother is spamming executioner. Even if they could survive spamming shields, they will be out of magic and just die. When I read the patch notes I couldn't believe they weren't nerfing Executioner.

Mihael

Executioner is not the reason why stam nb and warden are over performing, it’s more because on both classes you can get high sustain and lots of damage nb has incap which is over performing and warden has sub assault which can be combined with other skills to make a deadly combo, along with all the class passives and buffs that it has

del9

hesobad wrote: »

It's very obvious BGs are completely dominated by reverse slice / executioner spamming stam classes. An execute ability that can be used at 50% health is crazy to me. Literally every stam class uses the same rotation: stampede (or other snare / cap closer), some debuff ability (surprise attack, sub assault, etc), dizzying swing, Dawnbreaker, Execute, Execute, Execute, Execute. How is this intended gameplay? I play stam NB and Stam Warden because the kind of things I can do are just unfair with very little counter play to it. I really hope they nerf this execute, I don't see why it has to be usable at 50% life. In no CP environments it is COMPLETELY broken. A magic class can not shield spam enough to survive once they hit 50% life with everyone and their grandmother is spamming executioner. Even if they could survive spamming shields, they will be out of magic and just die. When I read the patch notes I couldn't believe they weren't nerfing Executioner.

A reverse slice at 50% HP will do far less damage than a dizzy. Try spamming executioner on a competent magplar at 50% HP. He'll laugh at you.
And Stam does well in BG because 1. mobility is king and 2. the maps don't favor range, which is most magic specs' standout advantage over stam.

Thogard

Mihael wrote: »

Executioner is not the reason why stam nb and warden are over performing, it’s more because on both classes you can get high sustain and lots of damage nb has incap which is over performing and warden has sub assault which can be combined with other skills to make a deadly combo, along with all the class passives and buffs that it has

This is exactly correct.

Mihael

I personally have come to like the other game modes specially crazy king but the amount of people stacking 30k+ health because they are too scared to pvp is getting ridiculous which is probs why I’m gonna mostly play death
match next patch

Karius_Imalthar

Stam builds in battlegrounds are face roll meta builds it seems. Gap close, knock down, execute, repeat over and over. The problem is the very resource they have most of is the very resource necessary to get out of any sort of stun or knock down so magicka users are s-o-l usually. I'm no saying it's all the time if you have a decent magicka player vs a mediocre stam build but it's much easier it seems for most stam builds to dominate. I also find that most stam build executes are instant cast and can be used over and over. Magicka has what, jesus beam which is slow and channeled, and Implosion which has a %15 threshold. Most stam executes kick in at 50%. Please see this list for reference.

Kel

It's true as a magicka build, if you get knocked down or stunned, it's over. No amount of shielding will save you.
Add the fact that break free is spotty in battlegrounds, even with a full stamina bar, and you are in for a long match as a magicka user.

Vapirko

This is the meta also because inexperienced players cannot deal with it. Thus its fast and efficient against them.

TheYKcid

Casting Rev Slice at 50% target HP (where the excecute scaling hasn't even begun yet) will deal exactly 50% the tooltip value of a Surprise Attack, or 33.5% of a Dizzying.

I fail to see how that would be threatening in any way, let alone define the Stam meta...

Sugaroverdose

I would prefer to not see any executes @ battlegrounds

Maulkin

Let me tell you a story....

Base cost of CC break is 5400.
Base cost of dodge roll is 3600.

That's 9k in total. Most magicka light armor builds have 11-14k Max Stamina in no-CP depending on amount of tri-glyps and type of food/drink they use.

You know what's amazing? Entrapping poisons.

I root a light armor wearer and increase the cost of dodge roll and cc break for 6 seconds by 30%. They dodge out of the root and spend 4800 stam. I press Fear and they CC break at 30% extra cost (if they can), or ~7k stamina. They are now slowed to crap from Fear, they have spent near 12k stamina (which is usually their entire pool) and they still have 4-5 seconds of dodge-cost "green feet" debuff.

I'll make sure they are rooted again while CC immune and I know they need a pot to afford the next dodge. If they can't chug a pot and dodge they are dead. If they can, the next CC will be the last. They'll be cost-poisoned again before the next Incap hits. Then it's lights out.

/Story.

TL;DR; Lack of CPs which mitigate the high cost of dodge/CC break and buff the small pools of stamina for mag builds, combined with cost increase poisons and tons of snares... makes for an environment where Stam builds, particularly ones with snare immunity, shine. Executes have nothing to do with it. If anything, MagSorc has the best execute in BGs.

Thogard

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

technohic

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

I have flirted with getting my stamden going with dizzying into shalks and DBOS. There are not a lot of them? Need to get it leveled before it’s found out

Mihael

technohic wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

I have flirted with getting my stamden going with dizzying into shalks and DBOS. There are not a lot of them? Need to get it leveled before it’s found out

I will probs switch my magden to stam soon if pts doesn’t change lol

wheem_ESO

There are multiple things that all combine together to make stamina setups generally superior to magicka ones in Battlegrounds:

• Dodge roll is superior to shielding, and the more heat you're taking, the wider the gap becomes. If I don't have Inner Light or Northern Storm slotted on my Magicka Warden, my shield doesn't even reach 6k; any of you stamina players wanna trade in your ability to spam dodge roll for that, especially since the shield requires a global cooldown to cast?
  
• As @Maulkin mentions above, most magicka builds aren't able to do too much breaking free and/or dodge rolling, and as soon as your stam is gone, so are your hit points. On-demand stuns, fears, or must-block abilities (like Dizzying Swing spam) will drain the pool quite quickly, even if one makes use of something like Shacklebreaker (which is in no way necessary for stamina builds). My Magblade is basically wearing leftover gear with no +stamina on it, and I believe I'm at something like 8.1k in Battlegrounds. With such a small pool, I can have a little over 60% stamina and be unable to break free (without any cost poisons involved, even).
  
• Stamina builds, other than the obnoxious archers that lead off with 10k+ damage from stealth, are unaffected by Negate, reflects, and absorbs - things which are essentially hard counters to many magicka setups. I was in one game last night against two different premade teams, each with a Shimmering Shield spamming Stamina Warden and Wings spamming DK - that's literally half the enemy players that my Mag Sorc can't do anything meaningful to, but who can throw damage my way at will.
  
• Stamina builds have very easy access to several different on-demand snares, snare removal tools, and spammable gap closers. In ESO, stamina builds are going to get in your face and, generally speaking, stay there for as long as they want to. And if they decide that they no longer want to be glued to you, a snare + some dodge roll spam is often enough to escape. At no time is this more frustratingly apparent than on my Magicka Warden; it's essentially impossible to escape from any stamina player that doesn't put their back right up against a ledge, but they can escape from that snare-less class at will (and no, a 30% snare with a high cost and 6 meter area of effect doesn't really count...nor does a 10 meter, 200 cost ultimate).
  
  And before anyone points it out, yes I am aware that some magicka players are using a 2h weapon and Forward Momentum in order to get access to snare removal - something which shouldn't be necessary. Would stamina players just shrug and think it's OK if their ability to self-heal was locked behind back barring a Resto Staff?
  
• As has been mentioned before, stamina setups typically have far better mobility. Sprinting around the map is a very real possibility for stamina builds, while it's often suicide for magicka ones. This reality, along with the aforementioned issues regarding Negate, reflects, absorbs, and dodge roll vs shields, makes stamina builds superior at objective-based gameplay (with some exception for dedicated healers, obviously), especially since carrying a relic continually diminishes the strength of shields, while - as far as I can tell - does nothing at all to nerf dodge rolling.

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

I don't remember any names off the top of my head, but yes I've seen multiple other 2h using Stamina Wardens out there.

technohic

wheem_ESO wrote: »

There are multiple things that all combine together to make stamina setups generally superior to magicka ones in Battlegrounds:

• Dodge roll is superior to shielding, and the more heat you're taking, the wider the gap becomes. If I don't have Inner Light or Northern Storm slotted on my Magicka Warden, my shield doesn't even reach 6k; any of you stamina players wanna trade in your ability to spam dodge roll for that, especially since the shield requires a global cooldown to cast?
  
• As @Maulkin mentions above, most magicka builds aren't able to do too much breaking free and/or dodge rolling, and as soon as your stam is gone, so are your hit points. On-demand stuns, fears, or must-block abilities (like Dizzying Swing spam) will drain the pool quite quickly, even if one makes use of something like Shacklebreaker (which is in no way necessary for stamina builds). My Magblade is basically wearing leftover gear with no +stamina on it, and I believe I'm at something like 8.1k in Battlegrounds. With such a small pool, I can have a little over 60% stamina and be unable to break free (without any cost poisons involved, even).
  
• Stamina builds, other than the obnoxious archers that lead off with 10k+ damage from stealth, are unaffected by Negate, reflects, and absorbs - things which are essentially hard counters to many magicka setups. I was in one game last night against two different premade teams, each with a Shimmering Shield spamming Stamina Warden and Wings spamming DK - that's literally half the enemy players that my Mag Sorc can't do anything meaningful to, but who can throw damage my way at will.
  
• Stamina builds have very easy access to several different on-demand snares, snare removal tools, and spammable gap closers. In ESO, stamina builds are going to get in your face and, generally speaking, stay there for as long as they want to. And if they decide that they no longer want to be glued to you, a snare + some dodge roll spam is often enough to escape. At no time is this more frustratingly apparent than on my Magicka Warden; it's essentially impossible to escape from any stamina player that doesn't put their back right up against a ledge, but they can escape from that snare-less class at will (and no, a 30% snare with a high cost and 6 meter area of effect doesn't really count...nor does a 10 meter, 200 cost ultimate).
  
  And before anyone points it out, yes I am aware that some magicka players are using a 2h weapon and Forward Momentum in order to get access to snare removal - something which shouldn't be necessary. Would stamina players just shrug and think it's OK if their ability to self-heal was locked behind back barring a Resto Staff?
  
• As has been mentioned before, stamina setups typically have far better mobility. Sprinting around the map is a very real possibility for stamina builds, while it's often suicide for magicka ones. This reality, along with the aforementioned issues regarding Negate, reflects, absorbs, and dodge roll vs shields, makes stamina builds superior at objective-based gameplay (with some exception for dedicated healers, obviously), especially since carrying a relic continually diminishes the strength of shields, while - as far as I can tell - does nothing at all to nerf dodge rolling.

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

I don't remember any names off the top of my head, but yes I've seen multiple other 2h using Stamina Wardens out there.

I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said. Even with that said, at least in open world; magicka characters are still strong outside of Warden and non heal Templars. At least I haven’t seen any great ones of those. Seen good ones; but generally think they’d be better as stamina

CatchMeTrolling

Depends on the platform, on console the most you’ll see from stam is stam nb the rest is distributed decently, at one point magic actually dominated bgs.

hesobad

jabrone77 wrote: »

It's true as a magicka build, if you get knocked down or stunned, it's over. No amount of shielding will save you.
Add the fact that break free is spotty in battlegrounds, even with a full stamina bar, and you are in for a long match as a magicka user.

Also I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but there is like a major delay when breaking free. It's probably a bug, but I get feared and instantly break free, well my character stands there still for about 3 to 4 seconds doing nothing but getting Executed on by a stam blade before the break free animation happens and I can move again. by that time I'm dead. I've come to the conclusion that ZOS hates magic classes and therefore just going to hop on that band wagon till it gets fixed

The_Brosteen

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

They show up from time to time. But yea, its mostly you

Toc de Malsvi

hesobad wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

It's true as a magicka build, if you get knocked down or stunned, it's over. No amount of shielding will save you.
Add the fact that break free is spotty in battlegrounds, even with a full stamina bar, and you are in for a long match as a magicka user.

Also I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but there is like a major delay when breaking free. It's probably a bug, but I get feared and instantly break free, well my character stands there still for about 3 to 4 seconds doing nothing but getting Executed on by a stam blade before the break free animation happens and I can move again. by that time I'm dead. I've come to the conclusion that ZOS hates magic classes and therefore just going to hop on that band wagon till it gets fixed

This has been an issue since dragon bones pts and I don't think it will get fixed.

ShadowMonarch

hesobad wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

It's true as a magicka build, if you get knocked down or stunned, it's over. No amount of shielding will save you.
Add the fact that break free is spotty in battlegrounds, even with a full stamina bar, and you are in for a long match as a magicka user.

Also I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but there is like a major delay when breaking free. It's probably a bug, but I get feared and instantly break free, well my character stands there still for about 3 to 4 seconds doing nothing but getting Executed on by a stam blade before the break free animation happens and I can move again. by that time I'm dead. I've come to the conclusion that ZOS hates magic classes and therefore just going to hop on that band wagon till it gets fixed

Happens after DK leap too.

Tigeracer

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

Look for bentententen in game. He is a monster! Though your stupid premade squashed me multiple times the other night and you are a pretty tough opponent.

Also, what was up with your magsorc mate? He was awesome!

Thogard

Tigeracer wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

Look for bentententen in game. He is a monster! Though your stupid premade squashed me multiple times the other night and you are a pretty tough opponent.

Also, what was up with your magsorc mate? He was awesome!

bententen is in my guild. he is not a dizzy swing stamden and never has been.

Not sure which mag sorc you're referring to probably either Inigo or beepee.

Sixty5

Few things.

Firstly, Reverse Slice and Executioner start scaling at 50% health, rather than dealing full execute damage from the get go like Killers Blade. You won't get the full bonus damage scaling unless you are using it vs a target with 1% HP, in which case they are already dead.

Secondly, Dizzying Swing is one of the most telegraphed abilities in the game. It's not a hard ask to block it, at which point you cut down on a lot of the damage of the combo.

Thirdly, what else can stam builds use? Unless you are a Nightblade or a Templar you don't have access to any bursty stam skills elsewhere, and if you are going with a 2 handed build, your only other options are a gap closer or a low damage + dot cleave ability.

Shadowmaster

hesobad wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

It's true as a magicka build, if you get knocked down or stunned, it's over. No amount of shielding will save you.
Add the fact that break free is spotty in battlegrounds, even with a full stamina bar, and you are in for a long match as a magicka user.

Also I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but there is like a major delay when breaking free. It's probably a bug, but I get feared and instantly break free, well my character stands there still for about 3 to 4 seconds doing nothing but getting Executed on by a stam blade before the break free animation happens and I can move again. by that time I'm dead. I've come to the conclusion that ZOS hates magic classes and therefore just going to hop on that band wagon till it gets fixed

This is 1/6 of my deaths in Cyrodiil, fwiw.

Destyran

Mihael wrote: »

Executioner is not the reason why stam nb and warden are over performing, it’s more because on both classes you can get high sustain and lots of damage nb has incap which is over performing and warden has sub assault which can be combined with other skills to make a deadly combo, along with all the class passives and buffs that it has

This is how raidiant destruction got nerfed. You can’t stop it.

Galalin

Thogard wrote: »

For real tho is there another 2h dizzy stamden on PC NA BGs?

I keep hearing about how OP it is - and I agree - but I haven’t seen another one in a long time, so I’m starting to assume the posts are about just me.

I play with 2 regularly and both are great players in my eyes. I think the difference is a highly skilled stam wardens gets noticed very quickly by the kill numbers and the ones working on builds, casual and learning seem to just blend in. Just my observation.

Mihael

I actually haven’t seen any amazing stam wardens lately there have been a few decent ones but they are usually in a premade so idk how good they really are

SupremeRissole

Executioner does nothing to a sword and board breath of life spamming permablocking templar. Reverse slice is easily avoidable in comparison to endless fury + implosion. Stam is not overperforming.