Do players account for lore when reading the patch notes?

Knowledge

I see some posts on the forums regarding the changes such as "Elder staves Online". When I see this I often wonder if the players take into account the lore of the game when considering these changes? Think about it for a second, a sorcerer is a mortal user of magic that has spent countless years refining their abilities in the art of magic.

In my view, even a stamina-based combatant that has spent the same amount of time training or learning their arts would be less powerful than a magic user. Magic is very strong and I believe the game balance should duly reflect that fact. A sword is not superior to the arcane arts in any capacity and a magic user should be the strongest.

ezeepeezee

that balance tho

Beardimus

Obviously you are just bantering. I doubt this will get the Stam boys to bite but let's see!!

I thought about a long answer but in reality the answer is just obviously that its a game. Thus needs a degree of equal balance for it to be enjoyable

All roles use a degree of magic anyway if you are rocking the lore card. Soul Magic for one, Stam NBs disappearing, Fear etc etc etc.

Lastly can you quantify the power of these 'arcane arts ' what makes the superior and how? Quite an assumption.

Yakidafi

I asked a mage to imbue my sword with magic, then I killed the mage with the sword.

Kendaric

Knowledge wrote: »

In my view, even a stamina-based combatant that has spent the same amount of time training or learning their arts would be less powerful than a magic user. Magic is very strong and I believe the game balance should duly reflect that fact. A sword is not superior to the arcane arts in any capacity and a magic user should be the strongest.

I guess you're no fan of the "Sword & Sorcery" subgenre of Fantasy where powerful mages die to the sword swinging hero (usually a barbarian ) because their powerful spells take forever to cast.

VaranisArano

So, I see you buy into the D&D theory of magic/stamina. Fighters scale linearly, Mages scale exponentially. Level 20 Fighter = excellent fighter. Level 20 Wizard = can break the world.

This is, incidentally, why D&D 3.5 has stuff like the Book of Nine Swords, which makes fighters able to grow in power similar to wizards. Because oddly enough, feeling woefully underpowered compared to the other players isn't much fun for the fighter player.

I could go on, but TES doesn't exactly have that wide difference in scaling, partly because players are expected to be able to use both. Mannimarco, a powerful mage, gets his butt kicked by magicka and stamina characters alike (in both ESO and Oblivion). The other TES games seem to go more for Alchemists and Enchanters will rule the world, along with stealth archers.

But seriously,
I mean, my stam warden is summoning shalks and cliff racers, molding ice into a shield, and firing volleys of arrows that last for 15 seconds with one shot. There's magic involved, even if my stam warden isn't casting lightning and damage shields.

(Knowledge, the way you go back and forth on "the lore should be respected" and "the lore should be thrown out for player satisfaction" has me confused. I mean, we were just talking on the other thread about how you think the lore should be changed to let players grab different racial passives. And here you are all "respect the lore, magicka should be more powerful". I'm just a little confused.)

Kiralyn2000

Gameplay trumps Lore (or Realism, when it's a "but that's not realistic!" argument)

It's all well and good that some author can write all sorts of crazy "heroic" powers in their novels, but that's not going to translate to a decent game.


[edited to remove comment]

Ruinhorn

Don't know much about arcane arts and art of magic, but $30 is $30

redspecter23

Conor Mcgregor vs. David Copperfield. Place your bets!

Bhaal5

Kendaric wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

In my view, even a stamina-based combatant that has spent the same amount of time training or learning their arts would be less powerful than a magic user. Magic is very strong and I believe the game balance should duly reflect that fact. A sword is not superior to the arcane arts in any capacity and a magic user should be the strongest.

I guess you're no fan of the "Sword & Sorcery" subgenre of Fantasy where powerful mages die to the sword swinging hero (usually a barbarian ) because their powerful spells take forever to cast.

That sorc didnt know how to light attack weaving and animation cancelling .

Claudman

I'm fine with lore taking a backseat for balancing tbh
Gameplay comes first, lore comes second. Kudos if you can blend both, but some combat directors in games can't.

emilyhyoyeon

Reasonably realistically, not every magic user is incredibly powerful, has been studying a long time, etc. Because ESO is a multiplayer game, the situation needs to be either: magicka-based does more damage but is less safe, stamina-based does less damage but is more safe; or stamina-based does more damage but is less safe, magicka-based does less damage but is more safe.

Cpt_Teemo

Lore #1

Sheogorath = The Lore Master

Claudman

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

-snip-

graybeardII

Pvp don't. Balance is all about pvp and competing against each other

DoctorESO

Knowledge wrote: »

I see some posts on the forums regarding the changes such as "Elder staves Online". When I see this I often wonder if the players take into account the lore of the game when considering these changes? Think about it for a second, a sorcerer is a mortal user of magic that has spent countless years refining their abilities in the art of magic.

In my view, even a stamina-based combatant that has spent the same amount of time training or learning their arts would be less powerful than a magic user. Magic is very strong and I believe the game balance should duly reflect that fact. A sword is not superior to the arcane arts in any capacity and a magic user should be the strongest.

That is a good point. There is a limit to personal strength. Only through magic can people become stronger than their individual physical limits.

Vapirko

And yet because of the long amount of time it would take to master the arcane arts in a world where magic becomes vastly more powerful than the physical world there are usually fewer wizards in the world as most cannot handle the rigorous process if they even had the ability to begin with. This is not true in ESO, you cannot turn around without tripping over a staff. Thus we must assume that magic in ESO is easy to obtain and anyone can choose to wield it, therefore the balance of the universe dictates that its power is not so great.

ihazzit

Vapirko wrote: »

And yet because of the long amount of time it would take to master the arcane arts in a world where magic becomes vastly more powerful than the physical world there are usually fewer wizards in the world as most cannot handle the rigorous process if they even had the ability to begin with. This is not true in ESO, you cannot turn around without tripping over a staff. Thus we must assume that magic in ESO is easy to obtain and anyone can choose to wield it, therefore the balance of the universe dictates that its power is not so great.

Has anyone asked him yet?

Anotherone773

Stealth 30m snipe = use your fancy magic stick now.

Traditionally magic users were squishy. Glass cannons. They did a lot of damage but died easily. They either needed someone to protect them or someone to constantly heal them or both.


*Sorcerers should be high damage and squishy.
* Nightblades should have the dexterity of a squirrel and be able to negate damage with dodge/evasion and do high damage only with surprise attacks and do medium damage with regular attacks.They should excel at crippling and incapacitating targets.
* Templars should be a hybrid class. Ok at tanking, ok at dps, ok at healing, but not great at any one thing.
* DK should be good at heavy tank and heavy dps.
* Warden should be good at tanking and decent at healing.


In ESO you can be anything in any class which is ridiculous. Its a step up from previous TES titles in which you could be master of all trades. Classes here really have no definition and there is to few classes. 5 is kind of low for an MMO, should be a minimum of 6 and really 8-12 to give some variety.

In MMOs, MMO play-ability and balance > lore. ESO is basically a SP game you can play with friends. I wouldnt call it a true mmo because it lacks defined classes and unique differences between classes that make an mmo an mmo among other reasons.

You can tell a game is broken when people can solo group content and even solo trial bosses that is suppose to be their level. When 4 DPS can run a dungeon more efficiently than a traditional group. When, for a lot of group content, healers and tanks are considered crutches and arent considered useful if they cant do something other than their primary job such as pull decent DPS or buff/debuff out the wazoo. For example, combat prayer is pretty much required to be a healer. If your not buffing our DPS 8%, you re a useless healer. Why are you useless? Because everyone and their mother has 10 heals they can use and half of them also do damage.

When compared to the MMO standard for the last 20 years, ESO is that one game that does every MMO thing wrong. There is no logic behind the design of the game and its like no one that worked on the game has even played an MMO little lone worked on creating one. Maybe they learned like the elitists, off watching youtube videos.

ESO could of been/could be an awesome game set in an awesome universe, but i feel it was majorly half assed by a bunch of rookies who have zero experience at developing or even playing MMOs.

Just my 2 cents

Judas Helviaryn

redspecter23 wrote: »

Conor Mcgregor vs. David Copperfield. Place your bets!

Better hope Copperfield can conjure a moving bus. That last one was defenseless.

Knowledge

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Conor Mcgregor vs. David Copperfield. Place your bets!

Better hope Copperfield can conjure a moving bus. That last one was defenseless.

In the same token all Connor McGregor's anger and physical prowess has earned him is a trip to jail(possibly).

David Copperfield has enjoyed a lot of fame and fortune with his magic career.

All joking aside, I really believe mages are strong.

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

I really believe mages are strong.

@Knowledge hang on, which is it - you believe magika toons are strong now in game?

Or will be strong after the patch?

Or mages just should be stronger in general as that fits your RP?

Or magic in real life is stronger?

What's your desired outcome of this thread / suggestion? That all magika classes should have a clear competitive edge in game over stamina characters in all areas? Thus rendering choosing a Stamina toon pointless?

Or just hoping to banter up the Stamina dudes for some word jousting?

Hey I'm all for #BuffSorc!! Let's do it HUZZAH pew pew

MAEK

Sure magic is strong but I mean an axe to the face will get the job done just as well as a fireball.

DanteYoda

Knowledge wrote: »

I see some posts on the forums regarding the changes such as "Elder staves Online". When I see this I often wonder if the players take into account the lore of the game when considering these changes? Think about it for a second, a sorcerer is a mortal user of magic that has spent countless years refining their abilities in the art of magic.

In my view, even a stamina-based combatant that has spent the same amount of time training or learning their arts would be less powerful than a magic user. Magic is very strong and I believe the game balance should duly reflect that fact. A sword is not superior to the arcane arts in any capacity and a magic user should be the strongest.

Doesn't matter how many years a mage studies a dagger in the back when he least expects is just as deadly as any spell thrown..

And remember these classes are all potential magic wielders even as a melee class.. Any class should be just as deadly as the next a mage is no exception..

logarifmik

Finally, voice of a reason.

KeiruNicrom

I mean if we want combat capabilities to be lore accurate then based on all the npcs that cast spells, magicka based characters should have longer than necessary cast times for all their abilities

VaranisArano

DanteYoda wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I see some posts on the forums regarding the changes such as "Elder staves Online". When I see this I often wonder if the players take into account the lore of the game when considering these changes? Think about it for a second, a sorcerer is a mortal user of magic that has spent countless years refining their abilities in the art of magic.

In my view, even a stamina-based combatant that has spent the same amount of time training or learning their arts would be less powerful than a magic user. Magic is very strong and I believe the game balance should duly reflect that fact. A sword is not superior to the arcane arts in any capacity and a magic user should be the strongest.

Doesn't matter how many years a mage studies a dagger in the back when he least expects is just as deadly as any spell thrown..

And remember these classes are all potential magic wielders even as a melee class.. Any class should be just as deadly as the next a mage is no exception..

Yes. My Nerevarine killed several powerful mages (including the guy in charge of the Telvanni) with an enchanted spear and unlimited potions.

In TES games, Enchanters and Alchemists are the true powerhouses, far more powerful than mere Archmages, Magelords, legendary necromancers, and false gods.

Merlin13KAGL

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Conor Mcgregor vs. David Copperfield. Place your bets!

Better hope Copperfield can conjure a moving bus. That last one was defenseless.

Or a 50 year old boxer...

JKorr

VaranisArano wrote: »

(Knowledge, the way you go back and forth on "the lore should be respected" and "the lore should be thrown out for player satisfaction" has me confused. I mean, we were just talking on the other thread about how you think the lore should be changed to let players grab different racial passives. And here you are all "respect the lore, magicka should be more powerful". I'm just a little confused.)

Varanis, it's *Knowledge*. I don't really think he has any strong personal opinions about anything, lore included. However he is incredibly adept at finding the baiting/trolling/clickbait/trigger issues that will generate the most reactions on the forum. He brings to mind a poster from Beth's forum a long time ago; he was a psych major, and just liked to get as much of a reaction as possible because he thought it was fun manipulating people.

AhPook_Is_Here

Everybody is a magic user in this game even the ones who fight with the elan in their blood instead of stolen magic. The gods bless some to make magic bounce off their skin and cut down heretics who think they can grasp the power of the gods. They are chosen, and resistant to the whims of magic.

See, all you need to do to make a counter argument is define new terms. Super cake; and also why one's interpretation of fantasy shouldn't be included in a game balance discussion.

Cpt_Teemo

ihazzit wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

And yet because of the long amount of time it would take to master the arcane arts in a world where magic becomes vastly more powerful than the physical world there are usually fewer wizards in the world as most cannot handle the rigorous process if they even had the ability to begin with. This is not true in ESO, you cannot turn around without tripping over a staff. Thus we must assume that magic in ESO is easy to obtain and anyone can choose to wield it, therefore the balance of the universe dictates that its power is not so great.

Has anyone asked him yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9Aw5B4AJA