What is this i hear about light attacks dealing more damage than heavy attacks?

Tapio75

Thats what i wanna know.

I mean if this can happen, there is something fundamentally wrong with the game design. I mean what is the point of calling sloppy spam attack a ligt attack, if its stronger than fully charged elegant heavy attacks?

I dont understand how it seems, like the game is being designed more and more around many spammable stuffs while heavy attacks weawing will be as someone told me, useless since light attac weaving makes more damage. Light attack weawing feels just like spamming stuff because you dont know how to play and it really needs less skill than proper heavy attack rotation when you take in account, that you also need to move while fighting.

If this assumption i heard is right, it is bad. If its wrong, then i apologise for my rant and carry on my way of playing regardless which is in trend right now.

Sixty5

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

Tapio75

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

Hmm, makes sense i guess.

But it feels like the system needs some better punishment to make this light attack rotation as a nshort burst damage rather than maintained. The cost of abilities used and resources returned with various mechanics while using light attack rotations, shoul be such, that it can be done for very short time, something like a sudden sneak attack, but if continued for several seconds, makes character fully depleted of resources and to danger of dying.

I dont feel like people need to be encouraged to maintain spammy playstyles, it really does feel like the same, when i was playing Tekken as a youngster, and since i had no frikin idea, i just spammed all the buyttons and somehow managed to win all the time. i dont think that sort of playstyle is good in the long run. People should be forced to tthink at least a bit of what they are doing and punished for not giving a crap.

Teaching people some resource management should start from level 1 on the open world questing so they can do it in the hard content as well. Basically this can happen, when one does not have champion points, but in other hand. when players just watch TV and spam buttons on Dolmens to level and get CP, they really dont learn a stuff in any game mechanics . Game was much better at launch, as it really forced to learn yuor class from beginning, remember Dochia, the harvesteer boss at the very beginning of fighters guild questline? Oh these times.

Seraphayel

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

hmr13.76preeb18_ESO

"Игра была намного лучше при запуске, поскольку она действительно заставляла учиться юоровому классу с самого начала, помните Dochia, босса-уборщика в самом начале квеста гильдии бойцов? О, эти времена."

I remember. The game is heavily simplified. I'd say they made it pretty easy. Therefore, we see players with the maximum CP and absolutely not able to play and do not know the game itself. I play with the beta tests of the game. I know this game and see how the quality of high-level players has decreased.

Gilvoth

hmr13.76preeb18_ESO wrote: »

"Игра была намного лучше при запуске, поскольку она действительно заставляла учиться юоровому классу с самого начала, помните Dochia, босса-уборщика в самом начале квеста гильдии бойцов? О, эти времена."

I remember. The game is heavily simplified. I'd say they made it pretty easy. Therefore, we see players with the maximum CP and absolutely not able to play and do not know the game itself. I play with the beta tests of the game. I know this game and see how the quality of high-level players has decreased.

you are correct.
very true


"Игра была намного лучше при запуске, поскольку она действительно заставляла учиться юоровому классу с самого начала, помните Dochia, босса-уборщика в самом начале квеста гильдии бойцов? О, эти времена."

English translation ...

game was much better at startup, because it really made you learn to the junior class from the very beginning, remember Dochia, the cleaner boss at the very beginning of the guild of the fighters? Oh, these times.

getemshauna

Light attack still deals more damage than medium attack. Since Morrowind. And you can't say that's not broken.

Sixty5

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

Did you even read what you just wrote?

Because what that says to me is that a 3 second heavy attack should deal equal or greater damage to 3 global cooldowns worth of abilities.
Even if you are taking animation cancelling completely out of the picture there, you can easily cast two abilities within 2.5-3 seconds, so by your argument, this should deal less damage than a heavy attack, that not only requires less imput from the player, but also restores resources?

The only way for what you want to be possible is for abilities to be nerfed into the ground, or heavy attacks being buffed to absurd levels.

You can even take word from the developers where they have said they want light attacks to be the better DPS option, with heavy attacks being there for sustain.

But I guess there is just a subset of people out there that see the words "animation cancelling" and immediately call shenanigans without taking a second to think about what they are saying.

Seraphayel

Sixty5 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

Did you even read what you just wrote?

Because what that says to me is that a 3 second heavy attack should deal equal or greater damage to 3 global cooldowns worth of abilities.
Even if you are taking animation cancelling completely out of the picture there, you can easily cast two abilities within 2.5-3 seconds, so by your argument, this should deal less damage than a heavy attack, that not only requires less imput from the player, but also restores resources?

The only way for what you want to be possible is for abilities to be nerfed into the ground, or heavy attacks being buffed to absurd levels.

You can even take word from the developers where they have said they want light attacks to be the better DPS option, with heavy attacks being there for sustain.

But I guess there is just a subset of people out there that see the words "animation cancelling" and immediately call shenanigans without taking a second to think about what they are saying.

It's not just about damage. It's about overall usefulness. I usually don't have a problem with animation cancelling but when the changes (and buffs) to light attacks even increase the advantage of animation cancelling something is seriously messed up (not to start with that animation cancelling is not a "feature" of this game but a problem the devs couldn't get rid of and just accepted as normal because they can't fix it).

Right now heavy attacks for most specs are a chore. They don't feel good but you need them for sustain. And in Summerset heavy attacks even get worse because light attacks get better? You see the problem here? It's NOT about animation cancelling.

ecru

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

lol what

holding left click for 3 seconds should be better than using three abilities while weaving light attacks in between? guess we should just remove all damage abilities from the game (and light attacks) since they'll be useless compared to holding left click.

Vahrokh

Sixty5 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

Did you even read what you just wrote?

Because what that says to me is that a 3 second heavy attack should deal equal or greater damage to 3 global cooldowns worth of abilities.
Even if you are taking animation cancelling completely out of the picture there, you can easily cast two abilities within 2.5-3 seconds, so by your argument, this should deal less damage than a heavy attack, that not only requires less imput from the player, but also restores resources?

The only way for what you want to be possible is for abilities to be nerfed into the ground, or heavy attacks being buffed to absurd levels.

You can even take word from the developers where they have said they want light attacks to be the better DPS option, with heavy attacks being there for sustain.

But I guess there is just a subset of people out there that see the words "animation cancelling" and immediately call shenanigans without taking a second to think about what they are saying.

The problem with heavy attacks, is that the reward is crap and the risk is maximum.
You can spam light attacks forever and with no resource drain and meanwhile you can hop around like a bunny. Optimal for lots of contents.

Heavy attack: greatly slows you down. You cannot move freely as well or it can break. You cannot cast anything or you lose the resource recharge. Often it bugs and you remain stuck into the heavy attack "staff ahead" animation.

And now, it'll also deal nerfed damage and kill heavy attack builds.

Can something be implemented worse than this?

Qbiken

Vahrokh wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

Did you even read what you just wrote?

Because what that says to me is that a 3 second heavy attack should deal equal or greater damage to 3 global cooldowns worth of abilities.
Even if you are taking animation cancelling completely out of the picture there, you can easily cast two abilities within 2.5-3 seconds, so by your argument, this should deal less damage than a heavy attack, that not only requires less imput from the player, but also restores resources?

The only way for what you want to be possible is for abilities to be nerfed into the ground, or heavy attacks being buffed to absurd levels.

You can even take word from the developers where they have said they want light attacks to be the better DPS option, with heavy attacks being there for sustain.

But I guess there is just a subset of people out there that see the words "animation cancelling" and immediately call shenanigans without taking a second to think about what they are saying.

The problem with heavy attacks, is that the reward is crap and the risk is maximum.
You can spam light attacks forever and with no resource drain and meanwhile you can hop around like a bunny. Optimal for lots of contents.

Heavy attack: greatly slows you down. You cannot move freely as well or it can break. You cannot cast anything or you lose the resource recharge. Often it bugs and you remain stuck into the heavy attack "staff ahead" animation.

And now, it'll also deal nerfed damage and kill heavy attack builds.

Can something be implemented worse than this?

Heavy attack builds are (IF the predicted changes are applied to live) actually getting buffed the same way light attacks are.
These two quotes are taken from another thread:

Currently LA and HA do scale with weapon/spell damage AND max resource, but the ratio is :
1 weapon/spell damage gives as much as 40 max resource for LA and HA damage
opposed to spell and abilities :
1 weapon/spell damage gives as much as 10,5 max resource for spells and abilities

The hinted change is that they will make LA/HA ratio 1/10,5 (same as abilities), this would mean a big boost to LA/HA for everyone if they only change this part of the equation. This would also mean it might be better to start stacking max resources instead of weapon/spell damage.

Sixty5

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

Did you even read what you just wrote?

Because what that says to me is that a 3 second heavy attack should deal equal or greater damage to 3 global cooldowns worth of abilities.
Even if you are taking animation cancelling completely out of the picture there, you can easily cast two abilities within 2.5-3 seconds, so by your argument, this should deal less damage than a heavy attack, that not only requires less imput from the player, but also restores resources?

The only way for what you want to be possible is for abilities to be nerfed into the ground, or heavy attacks being buffed to absurd levels.

You can even take word from the developers where they have said they want light attacks to be the better DPS option, with heavy attacks being there for sustain.

But I guess there is just a subset of people out there that see the words "animation cancelling" and immediately call shenanigans without taking a second to think about what they are saying.

It's not just about damage. It's about overall usefulness. I usually don't have a problem with animation cancelling but when the changes (and buffs) to light attacks even increase the advantage of animation cancelling something is seriously messed up (not to start with that animation cancelling is not a "feature" of this game but a problem the devs couldn't get rid of and just accepted as normal because they can't fix it).

Right now heavy attacks for most specs are a chore. They don't feel good but you need them for sustain. And in Summerset heavy attacks even get worse because light attacks get better? You see the problem here? It's NOT about animation cancelling.

The changes to damage scaling are buffing both light and heavy attacks by the same amount.

It looks to be currently about a 60% damage buff, which will boost both light and heavies. The only reason light attacks look more appealing is because of the changes to Empower and the addition of Imbue.

Tapio75

hmr13.76preeb18_ESO wrote: »

"Игра была намного лучше при запуске, поскольку она действительно заставляла учиться юоровому классу с самого начала, помните Dochia, босса-уборщика в самом начале квеста гильдии бойцов? О, эти времена."

I remember. The game is heavily simplified. I'd say they made it pretty easy. Therefore, we see players with the maximum CP and absolutely not able to play and do not know the game itself. I play with the beta tests of the game. I know this game and see how the quality of high-level players has decreased.

Yeah, and its sad too, since the game was not that hard to learn basics to begin with.. I mean there were propably places that were too hard for beginners, but this was acceptable once in the industry because games were meant to challenge people to learn. Profit was not the only factor and sometimes it was even the minor factor in game designing.

Even in the extremely easy open workd environment, i see people strugling daily. Dying from battles that basically should pose no threat if they would just try and learn a bit. Sadly they dont even listen to very polite advices i somtimes whisper to them when i see them to do something wrong and strugling because of tha error. Just give suggestions but nobody listens. When i started Warcraft back at 2005 or so, people were very different, i often wonder wht happened, are the games to blame or what.

@Sixty5
Some light attack rotation should never be the normal in combat but a burst option for short term large burst damage which in turn is balanced, by eating so much resources, that one reallt needs the heavy attack rotation as the norm or be completely drained without resources. Especially with high CP, the resource recharge is too high and while things cost magicka and stamina, they apparently dont cost enough since people can just mash buttons and hope they somehow do good DPS and when game is designed like ESO is now, the button mashing is very rewarding.

This should not be the case. Heavy attack rotation should be the normal and the light attack rotation should be costly "emergency" feature for burst damage. This could be achieved with cumulative resource cost so the more you use abilities in short period of time between light attacks, rthey start to cost more and more each time you use them and also make the resource recharge worse for some time.

The more damage, the more resources it costs and this is kinda immersive as well, as maintaining this sort of rapid attack maneuver, should always strain the character more than more relaxed heavy attack steady rotation.

Onefrkncrzypope

Tapio75 wrote: »

hmr13.76preeb18_ESO wrote: »

"Игра была намного лучше при запуске, поскольку она действительно заставляла учиться юоровому классу с самого начала, помните Dochia, босса-уборщика в самом начале квеста гильдии бойцов? О, эти времена."

I remember. The game is heavily simplified. I'd say they made it pretty easy. Therefore, we see players with the maximum CP and absolutely not able to play and do not know the game itself. I play with the beta tests of the game. I know this game and see how the quality of high-level players has decreased.

Yeah, and its sad too, since the game was not that hard to learn basics to begin with.. I mean there were propably places that were too hard for beginners, but this was acceptable once in the industry because games were meant to challenge people to learn. Profit was not the only factor and sometimes it was even the minor factor in game designing.

Even in the extremely easy open workd environment, i see people strugling daily. Dying from battles that basically should pose no threat if they would just try and learn a bit. Sadly they dont even listen to very polite advices i somtimes whisper to them when i see them to do something wrong and strugling because of tha error. Just give suggestions but nobody listens. When i started Warcraft back at 2005 or so, people were very different, i often wonder wht happened, are the games to blame or what.

@Sixty5
Some light attack rotation should never be the normal in combat but a burst option for short term large burst damage which in turn is balanced, by eating so much resources, that one reallt needs the heavy attack rotation as the norm or be completely drained without resources. Especially with high CP, the resource recharge is too high and while things cost magicka and stamina, they apparently dont cost enough since people can just mash buttons and hope they somehow do good DPS and when game is designed like ESO is now, the button mashing is very rewarding.

This should not be the case. Heavy attack rotation should be the normal and the light attack rotation should be costly "emergency" feature for burst damage. This could be achieved with cumulative resource cost so the more you use abilities in short period of time between light attacks, rthey start to cost more and more each time you use them and also make the resource recharge worse for some time.

The more damage, the more resources it costs and this is kinda immersive as well, as maintaining this sort of rapid attack maneuver, should always strain the character more than more relaxed heavy attack steady rotation.

If we are talking about rotations for successful dps, they are far from button mashing. There are very few builds that can run a constant la rotation and sustain for a long period. My friend texted a static 3 bow proc rotation for pve and it was ten lines of unique casting. In PvP either they are just noodles hitting u or they are about to be out of mag/Stam most of the time. Also there is a poor dead horse around with saying that heavy attacks are, in a more immersed ESO, more tiresome. Imagine you are a mage, what would be harder: store enough magic just enough to pop off one little electrical spark or sustain a 17m electrical arc????

MaleAmazon

Properly weaved heavy attacks do a LOT of damage. They can also be boosted quite a bit through CP, some sets and a few skills. I´ve used heavy attack weave a lot, and more experienced players than me said I had perfectly fine DPS in vet Falkreath (to take one example). Also, the resource return means you can keep it up forever and also forego stamina regeneration for more raw damage, meaning a heavy attack weave build basically indirectly boosts abilities too.

That said I mostly do it with stamina weapons since staves are a bit more unreliable with the weave, some skills don´t weave properly all the time. There I like to light attack weave and instead chain a few heavy attacks to regain resources.

Some people have a different playstyle. If you have lots of resource regen, few CP in XXXXXXX expert and sets that are proc or boost abilities - no you won´t use heavy attack much I guess. Why would you?

Heavy attacks are underrated IMO. And they might be even better post Summerset.

Tapio75

@MaleAmazon

I also use heavy attack rotations, even while questing in open world environment. It just feels right, and opens up the said resource to last forever plus as a side bonus, i can pick couple of stamina skills to magicka build and put few points to stamina as well to make them a bit better..

Though i would hope, that they changed scaling so that the amount of resource does not play role in this but just the spell/weapon damage.

@Onefrkncrzypope

Its quite true, that well charged spells do cost more, but they are done in elegant and practise manner which sould also open up better resource channeling to recharge and replenish the mage.

The books i read, the fantasy books, often describe paniced spellcaster as people, who just throw spells like the worlds foing tpo end and in the process, end up straining their wealth..
Not to mention if we could talk aboyt D&D, the spells are memorized daily, and can only be used few times relative to mages knownledge where the study of magick has also left the mage physically weak, making her or him strain from physical stuff and the way spells are cast, also makes them less mobile. If one is sorcerer, they can cast more spells daily, but know less spells in general. Maybe ESO mahick is closer to that sorcerer style or a bard style, but the thing is, that one cant just spam spells around and expect to do that forever, that strains resources as there is litle time for leyline channeling and whatnot not to mention if spells needed to be memorized.. Well that would be interesting idea to see in average MMO players group play and idea of balance

Onefrkncrzypope

Tapio75 wrote: »

@MaleAmazon

I also use heavy attack rotations, even while questing in open world environment. It just feels right, and opens up the said resource to last forever plus as a side bonus, i can pick couple of stamina skills to magicka build and put few points to stamina as well to make them a bit better..

Though i would hope, that they changed scaling so that the amount of resource does not play role in this but just the spell/weapon damage.

@Onefrkncrzypope

Its quite true, that well charged spells do cost more, but they are done in elegant and practise manner which sould also open up better resource channeling to recharge and replenish the mage.

The books i read, the fantasy books, often describe paniced spellcaster as people, who just throw spells like the worlds foing tpo end and in the process, end up straining their wealth..
Not to mention if we could talk aboyt D&D, the spells are memorized daily, and can only be used few times relative to mages knownledge where the study of magick has also left the mage physically weak, making her or him strain from physical stuff and the way spells are cast, also makes them less mobile. If one is sorcerer, they can cast more spells daily, but know less spells in general. Maybe ESO mahick is closer to that sorcerer style or a bard style, but the thing is, that one cant just spam spells around and expect to do that forever, that strains resources as there is litle time for leyline channeling and whatnot not to mention if spells needed to be memorized.. Well that would be interesting idea to see in average MMO players group play and idea of balance

Tapio75 wrote: »

@MaleAmazon

I also use heavy attack rotations, even while questing in open world environment. It just feels right, and opens up the said resource to last forever plus as a side bonus, i can pick couple of stamina skills to magicka build and put few points to stamina as well to make them a bit better..

Though i would hope, that they changed scaling so that the amount of resource does not play role in this but just the spell/weapon damage.

@Onefrkncrzypope

Its quite true, that well charged spells do cost more, but they are done in elegant and practise manner which sould also open up better resource channeling to recharge and replenish the mage.

The books i read, the fantasy books, often describe paniced spellcaster as people, who just throw spells like the worlds foing tpo end and in the process, end up straining their wealth..
Not to mention if we could talk aboyt D&D, the spells are memorized daily, and can only be used few times relative to mages knownledge where the study of magick has also left the mage physically weak, making her or him strain from physical stuff and the way spells are cast, also makes them less mobile. If one is sorcerer, they can cast more spells daily, but know less spells in general. Maybe ESO mahick is closer to that sorcerer style or a bard style, but the thing is, that one cant just spam spells around and expect to do that forever, that strains resources as there is litle time for leyline channeling and whatnot not to mention if spells needed to be memorized.. Well that would be interesting idea to see in average MMO players group play and idea of balance

Ah but this is a mana storage realm. It is separate and not dependent on the other storage channels unless wanted. We as a vestige must follow the rules of the realm. Heavies return Mana and there is enough Mana potions to recover artificially.

Tapio75

@Onefrkncrzypope

I would rather say, that its the storage for mage mechanics purpose which is the amount of magicka we specify for the characters.

The way i understand it, the magicka amount is the measure of power of how much magicka we can channel from AAetherius. Its the D&D Sorcerer that seems to draw all the power from the caster itself rather than from outside source..

Its a nice subject to discuss and speculate

exeeter702

Seraphayel wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

The statement that "light attacks deal more damage than heavy attacks" is more in the context that a light attack rotation will deal more damage than a heavy attack rotation.

Light attacks are faster than heavy attacks, and can be animation cancelled allowing for abilities to be cast on global cooldown. Heavy attacks on the other hand, hit for more damage than a light attack, but in the time it takes to complete one heavy attack, you would have been able to get off two light attacks and an ability, meaning that your overall damage is going to be higher with the light attacks.

Heavy attacks are going to return resources though, and running out of resources is a much larger DPS loss.

So basically, a heavy attack hits harder than a light attack under all circumstances, but light attacks provide more damage over time when properly interwoven with abilities.

You described everything that's wrong with scaling and animation cancelling. A 2.5-3s heavy attack should never be worse than some kind of animation cancelling light attack "rotation".

What on earth are you talking about ffs... light attacks are the inherent "white attacks" of this mmo's combat system. They are designed to he weaved inbetween active ability use that obeys the GCD as opposed to automated as is the case in other mmos. This has nothing to do with animation canceling and everything to do with intended game design, and no there is nothing "wrong" with that truth.

Heavy attacks being made to force decision making mid fight as to whether or not you can afford the sustained dps loss for recovered resources. Heavy attacks offer a higher raw value at the cost of sustained dps. The only brain dead issue here is having a scenario where particular heavy attack focused builds can entirely circumvent the ebb and flow combat design. That is that issue that zos is addressing now. Jesus christ.

Tapio75

@exeeter702

You do know, that the game can run as intended and designed, but the whole design may be wrong. Just because some players like spammy attacks, does not mean it should be the normal way to attack.

Sure, light attack weawing should do more damage for a period of time, but must be balanced by punishing continued use of light attack weaving so that its main purposes is short term burst which cant be maintained for long period of time. If one uses light attack weawing, it should eat out resources so the player is forced to maintain damage withheavy attacks.

it is also apparent how low the learning curve to spammy light attack rotations is, as even while it was the worst thing one could do, people still used it since they had no idea that heavy attacks even exist, they did not care to learn the game, and game designers went with this to make game design bad for everyone so the game really does not need that much skill as it used to need.

How is it balanced, when one can run to worlds end while hopping like rabbit and still maintain the maximum damage with less risk of being hit by enemy than when using heavy attacks when movement slows and the attack is more easily interrupted from various actions like interrupts and accidental rolls or jumps or what ever can go wrong. Maintaining good damage while also maintaining health and maintaining the rotation without being interrupted is not as easy as it is with light attacks.

I have tested this myself today, and when using light attack rotation, it is basically impossible to get interrupted or killed while damage is way too good considering theres no risk to this gameplay style plus in the last nail, the resources do not go empty, i can do this forever.. I can also do heavy attacks for ever, but im losing health since cant kite that fast, my attacks are interrupted either bt game mechanics or by bugging out animations or just because the need to get away from enemies to not die.

It sure does not feel like the damage light attack rotation is in balance with the risk since there is no risk in using light attack rotation. No risk at all. Why is the harder gameplay method the least revarding while the easy bunnyrabbit style is easy as hell?

Violynne

Vahrokh wrote: »

The problem with heavy attacks, is that the reward is crap and the risk is maximum.

/end discussion?

You can spam light attacks forever and with no resource drain and meanwhile you can hop around like a bunny. Optimal for lots of contents.

I wouldn't go this far to agree with forever, but the trade-off is spamming LAs requires a few HAs to replenish.

Those 3 seconds can make or break a battle easily.

Heavy attack: greatly slows you down. You cannot move freely as well or it can break. You cannot cast anything or you lose the resource recharge. Often it bugs and you remain stuck into the heavy attack "staff ahead" animation.

There's one thing missing from this: the automatic distribution, which means there's now a greater risk of "whooshing" said attack into nothing.

I ran across this yesterday with my bow. Mobs don't just stand still, and the automatic firing of the bow cost me 3 hits because of this.

I'm not sure what genius thought this was a good idea, but it needs to be removed.

Can something be implemented worse than this?

Ask, and ye shall receive.

I don't even bother with HAs anymore, unless I'm "cleaning up" before the next mob pool. I'll leave one standing just to replenish the barely-makes-a-dent back into my pool.

Playing around with options and I swapped to "Lower stamina cost" jewelry.

Going back to stamina regen.

Tapio75

@Violynne
I hope you dont mean, that the slower movement of heavy attacks needs to be removed? I mean its the part of risk which one has to take to get a heavy attack, and thus should also remain but the heavy attack rotation itself needs to be more rewarding and the light attack rotation however better short term damage, must also have risk equal to the higher damage and it needs to have mechanisms like cumulative spell costs and no recharge to discourage its long term use.

I think light attack weawing is good for short burst damage, but it cant be the normal for everyday gamer and game mechanics.

Violynne

Tapio75 wrote: »

@Violynne
I hope you dont mean, that the slower movement of heavy attacks needs to be removed? I mean its the part of risk which one has to take to get a heavy attack, and thus should also remain but the heavy attack rotation itself needs to be more rewarding and the light attack rotation however better short term damage, must also have risk equal to the higher damage and it needs to have mechanisms like cumulative spell costs and no recharge to discourage its long term use.

I think you may have misinterpreted my reply.

When a HA is activated, once the 3 seconds are up, the charge is automatically dispersed. We can no longer hold this charge and release it as we'd like (or more importantly, to the target we want).

This is what needs to be removed. If I'm charging an attack, I should also determine when to release it.

Anotherone773

Ignore the weaving and animation cancelling and look at basics. If you did just consistent heavy attacks compared to consistent light attacks, you lose about 30% of your DPS doing heavy instead of light. Im guessing the logic here is that heavy attacks restore more resources therefore should do less damage. I think heavy attacks should do both more damage and restore more resources.

IE: A heavy attack should restore 3 or 4 times(base) as much resources as light attack and do at least 3 times more damage and have a 1.X second cast while lights have an instant cast. If i concentrate on what im shooting at, i should do more DPS if im just going off all willy nilly, damage should be light. OR make it a 2.x cast with 4x damage and 4 or 5x resources of light.

Tapio75

@Violynne

Oh, i see. I fully agree with you. Bow needs to have option for not being auto released when HA is fully charged.

In fact i have made couple of posts about the issue myself. Ever since it was implemented for Morrowind, i have hated it. Not to mention it did not even give any damage bossts as i had allready learned the right release point. Only thing the change did, was that i suddenly had guided missiles instead of arrows where they just go to the previous target and spometimes do very funny curves when i face in other direction.

Septimus_Magna

Maybe you are confusing damage with damage per second (dps).

A fully charged heavy attack will deal more damage than a light attack but it also takes longer to charge up. For example, a light attack can fire every second and deals 3k damage. Heavy attacks takes 3 seconds to charge but deals 8k damage (and restores resources).

Someone on the forum did a test with how much dps you do with light, semi-charged medium and fully charged heavy attacks. Its quite interesting to read.

exeeter702

Tapio75 wrote: »

@exeeter702

You do know, that the game can run as intended and designed, but the whole design may be wrong. Just because some players like spammy attacks, does not mean it should be the normal way to attack.

Sure, light attack weawing should do more damage for a period of time, but must be balanced by punishing continued use of light attack weaving so that its main purposes is short term burst which cant be maintained for long period of time. If one uses light attack weawing, it should eat out resources so the player is forced to maintain damage withheavy attacks.

it is also apparent how low the learning curve to spammy light attack rotations is, as even while it was the worst thing one could do, people still used it since they had no idea that heavy attacks even exist, they did not care to learn the game, and game designers went with this to make game design bad for everyone so the game really does not need that much skill as it used to need.

How is it balanced, when one can run to worlds end while hopping like rabbit and still maintain the maximum damage with less risk of being hit by enemy than when using heavy attacks when movement slows and the attack is more easily interrupted from various actions like interrupts and accidental rolls or jumps or what ever can go wrong. Maintaining good damage while also maintaining health and maintaining the rotation without being interrupted is not as easy as it is with light attacks.

I have tested this myself today, and when using light attack rotation, it is basically impossible to get interrupted or killed while damage is way too good considering theres no risk to this gameplay style plus in the last nail, the resources do not go empty, i can do this forever.. I can also do heavy attacks for ever, but im losing health since cant kite that fast, my attacks are interrupted either bt game mechanics or by bugging out animations or just because the need to get away from enemies to not die.

It sure does not feel like the damage light attack rotation is in balance with the risk since there is no risk in using light attack rotation. No risk at all. Why is the harder gameplay method the least revarding while the easy bunnyrabbit style is easy as hell?

You are coming from somewhere so utterly detached with what this game is about let alone fundamental mmo design that im at a loss of words. Spouting easy point buzzwords like spammy dont help your case either.

temjiu

I think 2 things could really help:
1) HA animation could be a bit faster. I'm not expecting fast attacks here, but just a few tenths of a second shaved off would make them feel and perform better.
2) remove the auto discharge. Or whatever it's called...having it automatically fire off my HA is punishing and detrimental. Like it was prior, I should be able to hold it and time my heavy attack. Currently I can time my LA in effect.

I believe that the whole idea behind adding resource regen was to make HA more rewarding and incentivize it's use while not punishing LA use at the same time. But as many here, I believe that it's current form is not enough. They could certainly add a small resource expenditure to LA, making it a choice instead of a default "fill in the gap here". or they could adjust HA a bit more as stated above, and simply make them more desirable to use. Either way, HA needs some love.

Tapio75

Söme cost to light attack could go a long way to balance the thing out from the default attack and move it to short term burst attack instead.

Considering TES games have always had staves as something you need to recharge, it would only be in line with previous games to have a bit of magicka cost to light attacks.

Bow needs to have its heavy attack with manual release OPTION too, since some have allready adapted the current way and think its better for them, let them hgave it but let us also have toggle for it. In regards to staves, i dont want a HA manual release, but maybe option there would be good too though i dont see it fitting staves at all but thats only my opinion.