Why the strife nerf is a bad idea!

ccfeeling

Strife nerfing made NB has to HA much more, the NB mechanics are totally destroyed.Unlike sorc, NB could not HA weaving too much, Dps will be huge lost for this class.

You won't see HA build NB in this game, unless a newbie!

BigBadVolk

Edziu wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Right now magblade has both the best sustain and the highest dps. Thats straight up op.

Wheter or not this is the right nerf is a different arguement.

I have to agree with others that its probably too much but a cost increase is definately a good idea.

In PVP they are perma invis and have constant self healing. The mag blades do have a lot less burst than stamblades but they make up for it with healing based off thier damage dealing.

in group PVP (everything except dueling really) magNBs don't perform nearly as well. Their burst entirely relies on incap + assasin's will and that is not on demand, whereas StamBlades have the burst to take people down with their on demand skills (poison inject + cloak + heavy/incap + surprise + execute is enough). And in a group setting magNBs are always focused first since cloak is not reliable when multiple people are on you and shield stacking isn't enough against multiple people. Shadow image is pretty much a necessity to get out of there. But magNB isn't effective at just weaving dmg from a distance when there are multiple people overlapping each other and your weaving is just hitting different people every time. So essentially MagNB's become useless in BG's and that's why you see very little of them.

Stam NB's can roll around on the outskirts of fights, quickly go in, get a nice incap/surprise/execute combo in and take someone down, quickly get out, and keep taking out targets individually. Their burst within that 3 second window of coming out of stealth is massively better than a mag NB's, and that allows them to be great in small scale group fights.

If you think magblades don't perform well in groups, you don't pvp.
They are the core dps for almost every ball group on pc/na.

but let me guess...most of them are somethink like bomber builds so strife at all is isnt used to often

most of them are using strife for the ulti gain between pushes.

same thing can achieve for using sap essence, siphoning strikes or even cripple/debilitate just to root enemies or even malev offering xD (mainly after patch with change to burst heal and dot on caster but current also is fine as for ballgroups with healbots)

also add in that that op ulti gain is 2 ultimate with a 4 second cooldown ermahgerd

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

This again is a case of one affecting the other. PvP has caused lots of different nerfs to PvE and this is one which goes the other way. Again this is a point to argue for the separate balancing of PvP and PvE. Block cost changes, the regeneration of stamina, the nerf to green dragons blood, the frag nerf. There is a lot which went the other way.

ZOS have to look at the full scope of the game, both PvP and PvE to try and maintain something that resembles balance. Does this help in PvE to balance parses of mag classes? a little.

I think many of the changes were good but this may need adjusting slightly on PTS. Again, this is all pre-PTS stuff so save the "sky is falling" threads until we test the hell out of it on PTS

Tannus15

I don't think anyone argues that magblade is top of the mag dps at the moment, and the gap will only widen with staffs giving 2 set bonuses. this is largely due to their sustain being so much better than every other class with the cheap cost of funnel health coupled with siphon strikes.

Clearly something has to give here. The argument that "night blades can't heavy attack because focus procs" is a load of bull. Focus can be changed so that a fully charged heavy attack grants 2 or 3 focus procs.

Heavy attacks are also designed to lower your DPS as you deal with resource management. My mag sorc loses DPS because the heavy attack isn't procing my asylum staff. That doesn't mean mag sorcs are broken.

ccfeeling

Sorc and NB are 2 different design, mag sorc is easy to hit 30k dps with HA weaving, HA is necessary to sorc .
I dont know you have a NB or not, LA+ strife weaving , Merciless Resolve and Siphoning Attacks are the NB combat triangle, nerf one means nerf them all at once.

40% cost increase is crazy, Zos combat team, please think about it!

JinMori

The only reason to ever use strife over force pulse was the fact that it healed and it was cheaper, now people will just run force pulse, because it just does more dps.

This nerf was pretty stupid indeed

Tannus15

ccfeeling wrote: »

Sorc and NB are 2 different design, mag sorc is easy to hit 30k dps with HA weaving, HA is necessary to sorc .
I dont know you have a NB or not, LA+ strife weaving , Merciless Resolve and Siphoning Attacks are the NB combat triangle, nerf one means nerf them all at once.

40% cost increase is crazy, Zos combat team, please think about it!

Yes, I have a magblade, I understand how siphoning, resolve and light attack weaving are all linked and I agree that 40% might be too much. We'll see once it's on PTS.

It's possible with other changes it might not be as catastrophic as it seems. It's also possible that with 5/5/2 mag blades might need a nerf to bring down their dps and adding a heavy attack might balance them out better.

geonsocal

the strife nerf sucks...but, wtf - one of the cloak abilities won't even grant you stealth...

xaraan

geonsocal wrote: »

the strife nerf sucks...but, wtf - one of the cloak abilities won't even grant you stealth...

That's a change made for NB tanks, we've been wanting a self/burst heal for the class and choosing a skill that would make someone choose between going invis in pvp and strong self heal in pvp was a smart decision.

As for the OP, magNBs are outperforming everyone right now and frankly, the reason is that Funnel is super cheap and one of the few skills you can LA/weave/spam in the game without putting much into regen/cost reduction from else where. They obviously don't want this happening, so the nerf makes sense.. Not saying I agree with how crazy they've made resource management, but it does at least make things even between classes.

ccfeeling

NB
Transfer
Casting a Siphoning ability generates 2 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

Warden
Savage Beast
Activating an Animal Companion ability grants 4 Ultimate. This effect has a cooldown of 8 seconds.

Sorc
Power Stone
Reduces the cost of your Ultimate abilities by 15%.

Templar
Prism
Casting a Dawn's Wrath ability generates 3 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.

DK
Battle Roar
When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore 46 Health, 46 Magicka, and 46 Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.

We all have Ultimate benifits but express in different form .

NB , Warden and Templar are similar , please dont just focus on NB , thank you !

Dojohoda

It is simply not true that magblades are "overtuned"

Ron_Burgundy_79

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

PLEASE RETHINK THE STRIFE NERF. PLEASE.

NERFS TO STAMBLADES ARE NEEDED, NOT MAGBLADES THAT ARE ALREADY UNDERDOG IN CYRODIIL

THANK YOU!!!

It's so true though. It is as if someone were to nerf magden to the ground while leaving stamden completely untouched.

I'm not sure why mag warden and mag nightblade took such big hits while their stam counterparts remain largely untouched.

eso_lags

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@itzTJ

Care to elaborate?

Perhaps it has escaped my attention but I don't think you're the only ESO player to achieve omniscience, thus being able to render judgement that cannot be questioned and does not have to be explained.

I have spoken.

eso_lags

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@itzTJ

Care to elaborate?

Perhaps it has escaped my attention but I don't think you're the only ESO player to achieve omniscience, thus being able to render judgement that cannot be questioned and does not have to be explained.

and WRONG AGAIN!

adeptusminor

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

PLEASE RETHINK THE STRIFE NERF. PLEASE.

NERFS TO STAMBLADES ARE NEEDED, NOT MAGBLADES THAT ARE ALREADY UNDERDOG IN CYRODIIL

They base the nerfs according to pve first. Stamblades are more lacking in pve, so they wont nerf certain stamblade skills. But they are changing Dark cloak to a burst heal with no invisibility, this will make tanky stamblades more viable, so they dont have to run away and hide.

Compared to magblades? Naw

wolfxspice

I'v been thinking about this, the more I have been thinking, I realized I'v been the other classes less and less, whenever the game forces me to do a heavy attack its not not fun, its slow, i lose track of a couple of my buffs, I'm a argonian and i run witch mothers so i should not have to be perfect, I land almost every single light weave (not easy when weaving strife). I know some people might think it's a L2P issue, and their not wrong I'm not that great, far from it, but i dont think i should have to be one of the best players to sustain on the sustain class, cause that's what i remember it being when the game came out, "the sustain class" anyways, tired incoherent complaint over, i think.

red_emu

All the nerfs seem to be stemming not from PvP being unbalanced but from PvE being too easy. Everyone cries for a harder PvE content, so common sense tells you "increase overland and group PvE content difficulty" but this is ESO. Instead of making things harder they make player characters weaker, which only widens the gap in PvP! PvP isn't unbalanced because of OP abilities or OP classes. It's unbalanced because the gap between pro players who have reflexes of a cat and can mash the mouse/keyboard/gamepad and players who try their best and like to enjoy what's happening on the screen instead of constantly looking at numbers is getting wider and wider. Soon there will be only two types of players in PvP. Ones that kill you in an instant and ones that die instantly. Nothing in between.

TL:Dr nerfs make casual player weaker and pro player a god. Increase overland difficulty instead of making us scale to the level of a skeever.

Bam_Bam

Hmmm from this thread I've gathered the following:

Some people say "Mag blade needed the nerf - it does the best DPS in PvP". But others say they hardly do any DPS and have sustain issues" - I partly agree with the latter. EXCEPT for the sustain problem. I have melee magblade, and destro/resto magblade. Both play completely differently and the damage seems pretty 'mehhhh', especially compared to any of my stam blades. The only time it gets better is when I switch from using NB skills to Destro staff skills.

My question is - IF Magblades have such awesome DPS, what skillsrotation are you using?

Anastian

Right now, given that Siphoning Attacks and Minor Magickasteal shouldn't be changed with the coming expansion, we aren't in such a horrible position to say that Strife won't be used any longer for magblades.

Perhaps a mana cost that was slightly below Force Pulse would make it more appealing, but right now I already saw some good nightblades playing with FP (Asylum Perfected build) and they did have recovery problems, but nothing that synergies couldn't overcome. I don't know, I'd like to see whether we'll actually be forced to hamfist a heavy attack in the rotation or not in PvE: if that happens, then yes it's a huge nerf as a HA greatly lowers our DPS (you lose time for light attacks that build into AW), but if we can make do with synergies, then it won't be a huge problem.

My suggestion would be a slight buff to Siphoning Attacks, this way you actually need to be skilled and to never miss Light Attacks (as it was meant to be since the beginning) to constantly have your mana back even with a high Strife cost: if you don't refresh Siphoning Attacks and / or miss light attacks, then you have mana problems. Perhaps this could work.

PvP is another field though: there I can see more heavy attacks with resto staff and the constant presence of an elemental drain (or siphoning attacks) for the sustain of any strife user. Can't see anything exceedingly wrong there though as the self-healing is VERY useful in PvP. I'd happily trade an increased mana cost for more self healing as well, because currently Concealed Weapon is the spammable that deals plenty of dmg (try semi-melee builds with 2h/resto), and strife shouldn't deal more damage (or similar damage) compared to a melee skill.

red_emu

And siphoning attacks still recovers 102 Magicka per attack. Much WOW! I only need to Light Attack 20 times to recover from casting one ability

Anastian

xaraan wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

the strife nerf sucks...but, wtf - one of the cloak abilities won't even grant you stealth...

That's a change made for NB tanks, we've been wanting a self/burst heal for the class and choosing a skill that would make someone choose between going invis in pvp and strong self heal in pvp was a smart decision.

As for the OP, magNBs are outperforming everyone right now and frankly, the reason is that Funnel is super cheap and one of the few skills you can LA/weave/spam in the game without putting much into regen/cost reduction from else where. They obviously don't want this happening, so the nerf makes sense.. Not saying I agree with how crazy they've made resource management, but it does at least make things even between classes.

Thing is there, with a class that is designed to be constantly weaving with no heavy attack, forcing it to perform even one heavy attack is a major flaw. No nightblade should ever lose 2 Assassin's Will counters just because he has sustain problems, mostly because you won't have the time to cast the skill three times in one buff-cast (even though thanks to the recent changes this is more lenient, the main idea is that the skill should still be cast 3 times in 20 seconds, otherwise the damage gets very diluted over time).

AchlysNox

Incap strike needs a nerf, a 70 cost ultimate to a class that gets 20 ultimate back simply from popping a potion means they can use it every few seconds. In PVP that's just ridiculously overpowered, particularly with the major defile and stun. A skilled nightblade will keep major defile on you for 80-85% of the time ...

Strife is also a very strong skill. Rather than nerfing strife, I'd like to see some of the other classes have their spammable skills get buffed, possibly with a cost reduction. Kind of sucks that mag-sorc doesn't have a spammable DPS skill outside of force pulse though

red_emu

AchlysNox wrote: »

Incap strike needs a nerf, a 70 cost ultimate to a class that gets 20 ultimate back simply from popping a potion means they can use it every few seconds. In PVP that's just ridiculously overpowered, particularly with the major defile and stun. A skilled nightblade will keep major defile on you for 80-85% of the time ...

Strife is also a very strong skill. Rather than nerfing strife, I'd like to see some of the other classes have their spammable skills get buffed, possibly with a cost reduction. Kind of sucks that mag-sorc doesn't have a spammable DPS skill outside of force pulse though

I think that's the whole design idea, NB is the only class that can apply lots of debuffs but can not self-buff without a target like all the other classes. When you take a closer look, no abilities have a secondary buff, meaning you can't buff up until already on the target. Increasing the cost of strife is a bad idea in my opinion. It's meant to be a healing skill. I'd rather see they nerf the damage and buff the heal instead. For a ranged MagBlade this is bread and butter of survival and 9 out of 10 times it gets dodged or reflected anyway. This is really becoming Stamina Scrolls Online

AchlysNox

red_emu wrote: »

AchlysNox wrote: »

Incap strike needs a nerf, a 70 cost ultimate to a class that gets 20 ultimate back simply from popping a potion means they can use it every few seconds. In PVP that's just ridiculously overpowered, particularly with the major defile and stun. A skilled nightblade will keep major defile on you for 80-85% of the time ...

Strife is also a very strong skill. Rather than nerfing strife, I'd like to see some of the other classes have their spammable skills get buffed, possibly with a cost reduction. Kind of sucks that mag-sorc doesn't have a spammable DPS skill outside of force pulse though

I think that's the whole design idea, NB is the only class that can apply lots of debuffs but can not self-buff without a target like all the other classes. When you take a closer look, no abilities have a secondary buff, meaning you can't buff up until already on the target. Increasing the cost of strife is a bad idea in my opinion. It's meant to be a healing skill. I'd rather see they nerf the damage and buff the heal instead. For a ranged MagBlade this is bread and butter of survival and 9 out of 10 times it gets dodged or reflected anyway. This is really becoming Stamina Scrolls Online

Really? Minor beserk is literally a self-buff only available to nightblades.

Runefang

I agree that its too big an increase but lots of NBs use force pulse already.

wolfxspice

AchlysNox wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

AchlysNox wrote: »

Incap strike needs a nerf, a 70 cost ultimate to a class that gets 20 ultimate back simply from popping a potion means they can use it every few seconds. In PVP that's just ridiculously overpowered, particularly with the major defile and stun. A skilled nightblade will keep major defile on you for 80-85% of the time ...

Strife is also a very strong skill. Rather than nerfing strife, I'd like to see some of the other classes have their spammable skills get buffed, possibly with a cost reduction. Kind of sucks that mag-sorc doesn't have a spammable DPS skill outside of force pulse though

I think that's the whole design idea, NB is the only class that can apply lots of debuffs but can not self-buff without a target like all the other classes. When you take a closer look, no abilities have a secondary buff, meaning you can't buff up until already on the target. Increasing the cost of strife is a bad idea in my opinion. It's meant to be a healing skill. I'd rather see they nerf the damage and buff the heal instead. For a ranged MagBlade this is bread and butter of survival and 9 out of 10 times it gets dodged or reflected anyway. This is really becoming Stamina Scrolls Online

Really? Minor beserk is literally a self-buff only available to nightblades.

wardens have bird of pray, and all classes have access to combat prayer.

Brrrofski

For pve dps and PvP it's not a huge deal. PvP you're not spam casting it usually, and in pve magica nb is in a very good spot as it is anyway. Sure, it's a nerf, but not huge. I don't know why it's still reflectable. It never made sense. You extract life from someone - how it that reflectable?

It'll suck on my saptank though. Only 1 piece of light so have little reduction cost as it is. That build will really really feel it.

ak_pvp

ZOS has no idea what to nerf ever.

Players: Oh, stamina tanks are utilizing certain heavy armour sets for insane healing, tankiness and damage. ZOS: Heavy? Gotcha chief, lets blanket nerf all heavy as a whole.

Players: Certain builds exploiting the block cost formula with glyphs to get small block costs around 80. ZOS: Block costs huh. We'll make block charge twice as much, thus making it 160~ stam/sec more expensive for those with the glyphs but around 1000~ per sec for those without it.

Players: Sorcerers can sustain stack 3 shields and become tanky as a DK whilst keeping decently high mobility, sustain and damage. Hmm... Damage. Lets nerf sorcs' damage and stun from their decently telegraphed and easily dealt with damage that allows them to set up burst cleanly if timed skillfully.

The problem remains, but everyone else gets ***. They then fix the actual issue, (occasionally by rebalances like block, but mostly by another blanket nerf. I.e. shields with the pet, necro, sustain nerfs) but keep the old nerfs in place because doubling back shows weakness. Leaving everyone else in a bad state.

ak_pvp

red_emu wrote: »

And siphoning attacks still recovers 102 Magicka per attack. Much WOW! I only need to Light Attack 20 times to recover from casting one ability

That is about right though. Its around 300 regen altogether. Same as netch, battle roar, rune etc. Its meant to supplement, not carry. Add that to ele drain, natural regen+refreshing, pots, and a good rotation and its fine.

Androconium

More Fake Nerf Requesters discussing something less interesting than the current downtime.

Get over yourselves.