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Why People are crying about stamdk being weak and some changes
BohnT
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@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:
Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield
Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.
On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)
2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.
Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn
3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.
This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class
And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:
1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds
If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)
2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.
These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.
There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.
Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting
Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.
These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive
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Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can agree that DK's need a bit of loving.
On the subject of Noxious Breath, would having the ability work as a setup be a possible option to add burst damage to the class without giving DK a high damage spammable?
Have the ability be undodgeable, and amp the next direct damage ability (not light or heavy attack) from the DK by 30%?
It isn't consumed on dots, and combos well with Leap, or with Ransack/Heroic Slash for bringing tougher guys down, asumimg it maintains the major fracture.
Also agree that Snare removal needs to come with immunity, otherwise leaving ground aoes is just a massive pain.
Other than that, I'll point out that DK's still heal a hell of a lot more than Stam Sorc, given that you have passives that actually amp up your heals.
Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can agree that DK's need a bit of loving.
On the subject of Noxious Breath, would having the ability work as a setup be a possible option to add burst damage to the class without giving DK a high damage spammable?
Have the ability be undodgeable, and amp the next direct damage ability (not light or heavy attack) from the DK by 30%?
It isn't consumed on dots, and combos well with Leap, or with Ransack/Heroic Slash for bringing tougher guys down, asumimg it maintains the major fracture.
Also agree that Snare removal needs to come with immunity, otherwise leaving ground aoes is just a massive pain.
Other than that, I'll point out that DK's still heal a hell of a lot more than Stam Sorc, given that you have passives that actually amp up your heals.
Where comes this missconsumption that stamsorc is weak? It's just a small bit behind nb and warden as you can run full damage builds with no regen and sustain just fine with DD. Stamdk loses in every meaningful category vs a stamsorc.
Mobility, Damage, sustain, survivability, effective healing, group utility etc.2 -
Sixty5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can agree that DK's need a bit of loving.
On the subject of Noxious Breath, would having the ability work as a setup be a possible option to add burst damage to the class without giving DK a high damage spammable?
Have the ability be undodgeable, and amp the next direct damage ability (not light or heavy attack) from the DK by 30%?
It isn't consumed on dots, and combos well with Leap, or with Ransack/Heroic Slash for bringing tougher guys down, asumimg it maintains the major fracture.
Also agree that Snare removal needs to come with immunity, otherwise leaving ground aoes is just a massive pain.
Other than that, I'll point out that DK's still heal a hell of a lot more than Stam Sorc, given that you have passives that actually amp up your heals.
Where comes this missconsumption that stamsorc is weak? It's just a small bit behind nb and warden as you can run full damage builds with no regen and sustain just fine with DD. Stamdk loses in every meaningful category vs a stamsorc.
Mobility, Damage, sustain, survivability, effective healing, group utility etc.
Not saying stamsorc is weak, just saying that their Vigor or Rally is weaker than that of a DK because of a lack of healing boosting passives.
Defile is honestly just awful to deal with on Stam classes right now, especially with how dumb befoul is. The star is balanced to counter full on healers, but it is overkill on anyone without a full on heal spec.Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.
I play a character called "Gives Me Wood Elf" because I am a mature and sensible person.
Stam Sorc main in Battlegrounds0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I can agree that DK's need a bit of loving.
On the subject of Noxious Breath, would having the ability work as a setup be a possible option to add burst damage to the class without giving DK a high damage spammable?
Have the ability be undodgeable, and amp the next direct damage ability (not light or heavy attack) from the DK by 30%?
It isn't consumed on dots, and combos well with Leap, or with Ransack/Heroic Slash for bringing tougher guys down, asumimg it maintains the major fracture.
Also agree that Snare removal needs to come with immunity, otherwise leaving ground aoes is just a massive pain.
Other than that, I'll point out that DK's still heal a hell of a lot more than Stam Sorc, given that you have passives that actually amp up your heals.
Where comes this missconsumption that stamsorc is weak? It's just a small bit behind nb and warden as you can run full damage builds with no regen and sustain just fine with DD. Stamdk loses in every meaningful category vs a stamsorc.
Mobility, Damage, sustain, survivability, effective healing, group utility etc.
Not saying stamsorc is weak, just saying that their Vigor or Rally is weaker than that of a DK because of a lack of healing boosting passives.
Defile is honestly just awful to deal with on Stam classes right now, especially with how dumb befoul is. The star is balanced to counter full on healers, but it is overkill on anyone without a full on heal spec.
Hurricane completely outdoes the additional healing major mending and the 12% bonus give you. Also with the current meta vigor and Rally reach much higher tooltip on Stamsorc than stamdk1 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
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You're either talking about Healing Ward (which is available to any class), or Hardened. If you're talking about hardened, you need to include the burst "damage" when it expires.Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots.
It negates projectile attacks only, so there's still some ranged that can get through. No projectiles, no mag return > quickly expensive shield.Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
The gap, I assume is mines or streak. Streak is < 1/2 the distance of the average gap closer, and also comes with a penalty. Mines have a handful of counters and a small enough radius (for a single mine) that damage can still get through.
In either case, I'm not sure where the 'can't' comes into play?
Regarding Reflective plate, they're changing it to remove snares according to the information passed on so far.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
You're either talking about Healing Ward (which is available to any class), or Hardened. If you're talking about hardened, you need to include the burst "damage" when it expires.Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots.
It negates projectile attacks only, so there's still some ranged that can get through. No projectiles, no mag return > quickly expensive shield.Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
The gap, I assume is mines or streak. Streak is < 1/2 the distance of the average gap closer, and also comes with a penalty. Mines have a handful of counters and a small enough radius (for a single mine) that damage can still get through.
In either case, I'm not sure where the 'can't' comes into play?
Regarding Reflective plate, they're changing it to remove snares according to the information passed on so far.
The "can't" comes from multiple situations where people can't reach you even with a gapcloser because you are too far away. Wenn fighting a mine camping sorc good sorcs will always stand as far from you as possible so there is already a gap between, then you aren't exactly at the Limits of the mines range so it happens pretty often that after 1 streak you are more than 20m away from your enemy if he tries to gap close to you he'll be rooted by the mines and you are gone. If you mix in LoS in Open world there are many occasions when people can't reach you because they can't gap close in the first second and after the second streak you are out of gapcloser range. Of course this doesn't work everytime but more often than not it will save you.
The change to a snare removal is useless as we don't get a snare immunity afterwards.
You need at least 2 seconds immunity or we are stuck with the same situation we had before you were granted 2 seconds root immunity after dodge roll0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Since this post is concerning PVP, perhaps you should post it in that section of the forum.2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Things to note about the changes we saw:
1. new combustion is an RNG based passive with a long cooldown, which is not too weak on paper but in practice is BAD. The class is already a resource management mini-game and this just adds further to that boring gameplay aspect. Its still a buff in the end. Its just not really what I expected, and Its RNG based , which I really dislike. I don't think we need a third sustain passive instead of buffing the other two.
Combustion is the damage passive of Dks and it should have stayed that way. You could have just fix the battle roar if you wanted more sustain on Dks. the Ult regen builds on stamDks are very interesting and they trade stats for ult gen so that they can utilize battle roar. Sadly these builds are no longer a thing because battle roar has gotten so weak.
2. The new igneous shield is a bit weird. 3 second mending on base morph is very powerfull, but the upgraded morphs are now weak af. This is overall a net buff in the end, but while we get 2 secs of extra mending, we not lose out on shield size. bummer.
3.The noxious breath is still very weak, the cone is very narrow and it is for some reason dodgeable. Maybe make it easier to use? Or make it more rewarding? A stronger debuff instead of major fracture perhaps? Something similar to what magDks have?
4.Igneous weapons is still total garbage. If ZOS wants to improve stamDk dps builds in both pve and pvp, this is probably their number 1 skill to work on. compared to stuff like netch or crit surge this is just pathetic. It literally asks to be reworked into a poison ability. Since the other morph already has major sorcery it is fine to rework this into benefitting light attack builds on stamDk, and the best part is, you wouldn't be taking any power from other Dk builds, since nobody uses this for major sorcery.Edited by Ragnarock41 on April 4, 2018 1:04PM0 -
Ravingar✭✭✭As someone who mains a dragonknight I don't really have any problems. Like you sorta complain about how Dragonknights take the most damage or something like that... BUT I mean they are the best tanks in the game sooooo I'm sure theres other ways you can reduce damage in some way...
But honestly, implementing these changes will just make the class overperform, and most likely will cause it to become too similar to other classes. Personally I don't feel deprived for playing a certain class. I just enjoy it, and find work arounds which often work better.PC NA
User ID : @Ravingar | CP 830+
Tommo Bladell | Redguard | Dragonknight | Stamina | DPS
Ma'Muhn | Breton | Templar | Magicka | Healer
Falls-Over-Regularly | Argonian | Warden | Magicka | Tank
Jinjiin | High Elf | Sorcerer | Magicka | DPS
Ruv'erenar | Khajiit | Nightblade | Magicka | DPS
Exkalibur Whitesmith | Nord | Dragonknight | Stamina | Tank4 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As someone who mains a dragonknight I don't really have any problems. Like you sorta complain about how Dragonknights take the most damage or something like that... BUT I mean they are the best tanks in the game sooooo I'm sure theres other ways you can reduce damage in some way...
But honestly, implementing these changes will just make the class overperform, and most likely will cause it to become too similar to other classes. Personally I don't feel deprived for playing a certain class. I just enjoy it, and find work arounds which often work better.
I kind of have the opposite problem actually. when fighting against competent groups, stamDK is always left for the last because of how low damage output they have. So as a result I learned to build my Dk with ridicilous amounts of damage output.0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭The news sustain on poison status effect could be nice.
Increasing stam dk sustain will make them able to build for more damage or tankiness.
But stam dk will never proc poison status effect. Because it's too hard to apply on people and because shield doesn't take status effect.
Need something more to make it reliable.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As someone who mains a dragonknight I don't really have any problems. Like you sorta complain about how Dragonknights take the most damage or something like that... BUT I mean they are the best tanks in the game sooooo I'm sure theres other ways you can reduce damage in some way...
But honestly, implementing these changes will just make the class overperform, and most likely will cause it to become too similar to other classes. Personally I don't feel deprived for playing a certain class. I just enjoy it, and find work arounds which often work better.
They are the best tanks for PvE because they provide the most buffs for the group and have an easy time sustaining while holding block. In PvP this changes completely as survivability is based on other things and this is where DK lacks.
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NobleX35✭✭✭✭I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again here. While I wouldn’t complain in getting a stam stonefist morph, I feel like most people don’t realize that it would have to cost a ridiculous amount of stamina and would thus be rendered useless as a spammable due to the constant stamina return from Helping Hands. Not to mention the stun would work against petrify’s effectiveness or the stun would be rendered useless because of petrifys stun...either way they would not synergize very well. Honestly changing Molten Whip to a stamina morph would be the best option, since that morph is also rarely used because flame lash is so critical for Magdk damage and sustain."Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again here. While I wouldn’t complain in getting a stam stonefist morph, I feel like most people don’t realize that it would have to cost a ridiculous amount of stamina and would thus be rendered useless as a spammable due to the constant stamina return from Helping Hands. Not to mention the stun would work against petrify’s effectiveness or the stun would be rendered useless because of petrifys stun...either way they would not synergize very well. Honestly changing Molten Whip to a stamina morph would be the best option, since that morph is also rarely used because flame lash is so critical for Magdk damage and sustain.
Yeah the stonegiant part was an error as i just copied an old post of mine and hadn't changed that part in this version of the post.
I wouldn't want a stun on Stonegiant as stuns on spammables are a bad idea.
Stamina whip might be the best thing as molten whip is pretty useless right now but i think Wrobel has personal issues with a stam whip idk why
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NobleX35✭✭✭✭I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again here. While I wouldn’t complain in getting a stam stonefist morph, I feel like most people don’t realize that it would have to cost a ridiculous amount of stamina and would thus be rendered useless as a spammable due to the constant stamina return from Helping Hands. Not to mention the stun would work against petrify’s effectiveness or the stun would be rendered useless because of petrifys stun...either way they would not synergize very well. Honestly changing Molten Whip to a stamina morph would be the best option, since that morph is also rarely used because flame lash is so critical for Magdk damage and sustain.
Yeah the stonegiant part was an error as i just copied an old post of mine and hadn't changed that part in this version of the post.
I wouldn't want a stun on Stonegiant as stuns on spammables are a bad idea.
Stamina whip might be the best thing as molten whip is pretty useless right now but i think Wrobel has personal issues with a stam whip idk why
Ya I don’t get why he is so against giving us a stam whip..."Only the dead have seen the end of war."0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again here. While I wouldn’t complain in getting a stam stonefist morph, I feel like most people don’t realize that it would have to cost a ridiculous amount of stamina and would thus be rendered useless as a spammable due to the constant stamina return from Helping Hands. Not to mention the stun would work against petrify’s effectiveness or the stun would be rendered useless because of petrifys stun...either way they would not synergize very well. Honestly changing Molten Whip to a stamina morph would be the best option, since that morph is also rarely used because flame lash is so critical for Magdk damage and sustain.
Yeah the stonegiant part was an error as i just copied an old post of mine and hadn't changed that part in this version of the post.
I wouldn't want a stun on Stonegiant as stuns on spammables are a bad idea.
Stamina whip might be the best thing as molten whip is pretty useless right now but i think Wrobel has personal issues with a stam whip idk why
Ya I don’t get why he is so against giving us a stam whip...
Because "DK is the class that tanks his enemy until another player arrives and finishes them off"1 -
NobleX35✭✭✭✭I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again here. While I wouldn’t complain in getting a stam stonefist morph, I feel like most people don’t realize that it would have to cost a ridiculous amount of stamina and would thus be rendered useless as a spammable due to the constant stamina return from Helping Hands. Not to mention the stun would work against petrify’s effectiveness or the stun would be rendered useless because of petrifys stun...either way they would not synergize very well. Honestly changing Molten Whip to a stamina morph would be the best option, since that morph is also rarely used because flame lash is so critical for Magdk damage and sustain.
Yeah the stonegiant part was an error as i just copied an old post of mine and hadn't changed that part in this version of the post.
I wouldn't want a stun on Stonegiant as stuns on spammables are a bad idea.
Stamina whip might be the best thing as molten whip is pretty useless right now but i think Wrobel has personal issues with a stam whip idk why
Ya I don’t get why he is so against giving us a stam whip...
Because "DK is the class that tanks his enemy until another player arrives and finishes them off"
Which is honestly one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard...right along with the Templar house. That kind of logic does not promote good balance. If a class can’t not succeed on their own (in their own way), then there is a problem with the balance of the game."Only the dead have seen the end of war."1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »As someone who mains a dragonknight I don't really have any problems. Like you sorta complain about how Dragonknights take the most damage or something like that... BUT I mean they are the best tanks in the game sooooo I'm sure theres other ways you can reduce damage in some way...
But honestly, implementing these changes will just make the class overperform, and most likely will cause it to become too similar to other classes. Personally I don't feel deprived for playing a certain class. I just enjoy it, and find work arounds which often work better.
I kind of have the opposite problem actually. when fighting against competent groups, stamDK is always left for the last because of how low damage output they have. So as a result I learned to build my Dk with ridicilous amounts of damage output.
That’s pretty much what happens to me in group play.
They wipe my group and then 6 on 1. No burst, slow rolling DOTs that are immediately cleansed. Which you basically use 2H and no class abilities at all.
Stam DK are woefully in need of meaningful changes.Of course I like steak. I'm a Nord, aren't I?
-Berj Stoneheart0 -
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BloodMagicLord✭✭✭✭Agree with everything except for buffing wings. I've seen players get very good uptime on them and it's pretty broken vs entirely ranged magicka builds.PC EU | Tank | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart
STOP CLASS HOMOGENISATION2 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel you asked us in the DBones pts to give you advises how to buff stamdk. Why haven't we seen any meaningful changes?
From ~10 stamdk mains who were considered to be very good not a single one plays stamdk up to this day because they have nothing going for them0 -
LeagueTroll✭✭✭✭✭Stam dk lack dmg, yes, but magdk is like the 2nd best mag pvp class now with zaan cheese. Really nees to not buff the wrong skills.0
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BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LeagueTroll wrote: »Stam dk lack dmg, yes, but magdk is like the 2nd best mag pvp class now with zaan cheese. Really nees to not buff the wrong skills.
Well it's mainly focused on stamdk anyway the two changes that affect magdk wouldn't be enough to make them op but they'd make magdk an absolute top class that's true0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »As someone who mains a dragonknight I don't really have any problems. Like you sorta complain about how Dragonknights take the most damage or something like that... BUT I mean they are the best tanks in the game sooooo I'm sure theres other ways you can reduce damage in some way...
But honestly, implementing these changes will just make the class overperform, and most likely will cause it to become too similar to other classes. Personally I don't feel deprived for playing a certain class. I just enjoy it, and find work arounds which often work better.
I kind of have the opposite problem actually. when fighting against competent groups, stamDK is always left for the last because of how low damage output they have. So as a result I learned to build my Dk with ridicilous amounts of damage output.
That’s pretty much what happens to me in group play.
They wipe my group and then 6 on 1. No burst, slow rolling DOTs that are immediately cleansed. Which you basically use 2H and no class abilities at all.
Stam DK are woefully in need of meaningful changes.
This is mainly why I'm mad at the changes. I never asked for a third sustain passive, at the cost of losing my only damage passive.(not counting minor brutality as its not a Dk specific thing, its a group buff)
I do believe what stamDK needs is better offensive tools, some way to make use of their damage output.
Leap is great but by itself isn't going to justify making a full damage medium armor build.
The class needs something else. Maybe a spammable, or another burst mechanic.1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »As someone who mains a dragonknight I don't really have any problems. Like you sorta complain about how Dragonknights take the most damage or something like that... BUT I mean they are the best tanks in the game sooooo I'm sure theres other ways you can reduce damage in some way...
But honestly, implementing these changes will just make the class overperform, and most likely will cause it to become too similar to other classes. Personally I don't feel deprived for playing a certain class. I just enjoy it, and find work arounds which often work better.
I kind of have the opposite problem actually. when fighting against competent groups, stamDK is always left for the last because of how low damage output they have. So as a result I learned to build my Dk with ridicilous amounts of damage output.
That’s pretty much what happens to me in group play.
They wipe my group and then 6 on 1. No burst, slow rolling DOTs that are immediately cleansed. Which you basically use 2H and no class abilities at all.
Stam DK are woefully in need of meaningful changes.
This is mainly why I'm mad at the changes. I never asked for a third sustain passive, at the cost of losing my only damage passive.(not counting minor brutality as its not a Dk specific thing, its a group buff)
I do believe what stamDK needs is better offensive tools, some way to make use of their damage output.
Leap is great but by itself isn't going to justify making a full damage medium armor build.
The class needs something else. Maybe a spammable, or another burst mechanic.
There are certain skills in classes that unnecessarily punish the player for choosing Mag or Stam. Off the top of my head, Sorc, Warden and DK all have this.
For Warden it’s Betty Netch - Blue Betty purges one effect, Bull Netch gives Major Brutality (Major Sorcery inherent to the skill). Punishes you for playing Stam.
For Sorc it’s Surge - Critical Surge gives more healing, Power Surge grants you Major Sorcery (Major Brutality inherent to the skill). Punishes you for playing Mag.
For DK it’s Molten Weapons - Molten Armaments gives you 40% more Heavy Attack Damage, Igneous Weapons grants Major Brutality (Major Sorcery inherent to the skill). Punishes you for playing Stam.
These damage buffs should both be added to the base skill, and an additional morph effect added. This would also help Hybrids for ppl that want to make them work.
Stam DK would probably benefit from using Molten Armaments and a whole new morph could be added to support Stam DK in particular. Plus there’s still Stone Fist which has potential to turn into something great that maybe a Stam DK could use.Edited by Vaoh on April 5, 2018 4:32PM0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »As someone who mains a dragonknight I don't really have any problems. Like you sorta complain about how Dragonknights take the most damage or something like that... BUT I mean they are the best tanks in the game sooooo I'm sure theres other ways you can reduce damage in some way...
But honestly, implementing these changes will just make the class overperform, and most likely will cause it to become too similar to other classes. Personally I don't feel deprived for playing a certain class. I just enjoy it, and find work arounds which often work better.
I kind of have the opposite problem actually. when fighting against competent groups, stamDK is always left for the last because of how low damage output they have. So as a result I learned to build my Dk with ridicilous amounts of damage output.
That’s pretty much what happens to me in group play.
They wipe my group and then 6 on 1. No burst, slow rolling DOTs that are immediately cleansed. Which you basically use 2H and no class abilities at all.
Stam DK are woefully in need of meaningful changes.
This is mainly why I'm mad at the changes. I never asked for a third sustain passive, at the cost of losing my only damage passive.(not counting minor brutality as its not a Dk specific thing, its a group buff)
I do believe what stamDK needs is better offensive tools, some way to make use of their damage output.
Leap is great but by itself isn't going to justify making a full damage medium armor build.
The class needs something else. Maybe a spammable, or another burst mechanic.
There are certain skills in classes that unnecessarily punish the player for choosing Mag or Stam. Off the top of my head, Sorc, Warden and DK all have this.
For Warden it’s Betty Netch - Blue Betty purges one effect, Bull Netch gives Major Brutality (Major Sorcery inherent to the skill). Punishes you for playing Stam.
For Sorc it’s Surge - Critical Surge gives more healing, Power Surge grants you Major Sorcery (Major Brutality inherent to the skill). Punishes you for playing Mag.
For DK it’s Molten Weapons - Molten Armaments gives you 40% more Heavy Attack Damage, Igneous Weapons grants Major Brutality (Major Sorcery inherent to the skill). Punishes you for playing Stam.
These damage buffs should both be added to the base skill, and an additional morph effect added. This would also help Hybrids for ppl that ant to make them work.
Stam DK would probably benefit from this.
%100 agree on you with this. igneous weapons is a skill that gives you major sorcery+major brutality. Its just extremely pointless and outdated.
And in general when you turn a skill into a stamina morph, it doesn't gain anything other than scaling with stamina.
For example the engulfing flames gives you an uniqe and extremely powerfull damage boost. Meanwhile noxious breath is just major fracture, which is not as powerful.Edited by Ragnarock41 on April 5, 2018 4:44PM0
