RIDICULOUS Unbalance

Hutch679

Thogard wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

I’ve run that before in organized 4v4 tourneys. The group comp I listed above is stronger.

3 shalks stacked onto dizzy / bird / force pulse is enough to trigger an earthgore without needing to dump ult, allowing you to ult bomb when the earthgore rain stops (which coincidentally lasts the same duration as your next round of syncd shalks). The stamplar does not contribute as much to that and is far squishier than stamdens to burst - he will die first every time and cannot be healed through focus ult dump from another team.

For no CP DW > 2H. 2H is dodgable, takes 1 second to cast dizzy swing, and only hits 1 target. DW is instant cast, aoe, unavoidable damage. Steel tornado from 3 people plus 3 deadly cloaks plus 3 shalks is WAY more damage on multiple people than hitting 1 person with dizzyswings and killing them. And the stam sorc variation of that burst is insanity.

For farming zergs or unskilled players with a small group, DW is better.

If you’re up against a good group, 2h is significantly better, especially if multiple people are running it. If one dizzy lands it means three dizzies and three dawnbreakers will land because of the inability to block until the target hits the ground. DW is utterly blockable and the dots purgeable and vulnerable to Counters such as Earthgore.

Remember that dizzy is technically a channel and that the burst damage happens at the very end, meaning you don’t have to wait a full 1s / GCD before your next attack - you can have a dizzy / shalks / DBOS (or reverse slice) all land within .2s if you time it right. This would not give the opponent’s healer (or earthgore) time to react.

I spend a lot of time on both load outs and switch back and forth between them constantly

You realize this is in reference too BGs since its in the BG thread on a BG post, Right? There's no zergs in BGs and you're not on xbox, right? Come to xbox and see which you think performs better. 4 stam DW players all running deadly cloak, steel tornado, dawnbreaker, and shrouded daggers space about a meter apart from each other just spamming steel tornado in no CP BGs. It hits everyone lol I'm not talking burst oon a single player. I'm talking wiping the entire other team in 1 skill global CD. Maybe read this thread again.

Thogard

Hutch679 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

I’ve run that before in organized 4v4 tourneys. The group comp I listed above is stronger.

3 shalks stacked onto dizzy / bird / force pulse is enough to trigger an earthgore without needing to dump ult, allowing you to ult bomb when the earthgore rain stops (which coincidentally lasts the same duration as your next round of syncd shalks). The stamplar does not contribute as much to that and is far squishier than stamdens to burst - he will die first every time and cannot be healed through focus ult dump from another team.

For no CP DW > 2H. 2H is dodgable, takes 1 second to cast dizzy swing, and only hits 1 target. DW is instant cast, aoe, unavoidable damage. Steel tornado from 3 people plus 3 deadly cloaks plus 3 shalks is WAY more damage on multiple people than hitting 1 person with dizzyswings and killing them. And the stam sorc variation of that burst is insanity.

For farming zergs or unskilled players with a small group, DW is better.

If you’re up against a good group, 2h is significantly better, especially if multiple people are running it. If one dizzy lands it means three dizzies and three dawnbreakers will land because of the inability to block until the target hits the ground. DW is utterly blockable and the dots purgeable and vulnerable to Counters such as Earthgore.

Remember that dizzy is technically a channel and that the burst damage happens at the very end, meaning you don’t have to wait a full 1s / GCD before your next attack - you can have a dizzy / shalks / DBOS (or reverse slice) all land within .2s if you time it right. This would not give the opponent’s healer (or earthgore) time to react.

I spend a lot of time on both load outs and switch back and forth between them constantly

You realize this is in reference too BGs since its in the BG thread on a BG post, Right? There's no zergs in BGs and you're not on xbox, right? Come to xbox and see which you think performs better. 4 stam DW players all running deadly cloak, steel tornado, dawnbreaker, and shrouded daggers space about a meter apart from each other just spamming steel tornado in no CP BGs. It hits everyone lol I'm not talking burst oon a single player. I'm talking wiping the entire other team in 1 skill global CD. Maybe read this thread again.

Consoles are gross I can’t play without a MMO mouse haha

But you are correct in that there are no zergs in BGs... which is why I run the 2h build in 90% of BGs.

I’m not going to tell you that four spin2wins in a BG won’t be extremely good at defeating PUGs... it would be... but then, any premade should be able to beat a pug.

If I’m going to be able to beat a pug anyway, I’d prefer to build my group so that it is able to beat another skilled 4 man group, complete with a cliche guardplar and earthgore. That is why I would run 2h. Taking longer to kill a PUG is a small sacrifice to make in exchange for being able to defeat a well built, defensively specced 4 man.

Edit: I also understand that 2h abilities are easier to counter on console than on PC. YMMV.

Hutch679

Thogard wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

I’ve run that before in organized 4v4 tourneys. The group comp I listed above is stronger.

3 shalks stacked onto dizzy / bird / force pulse is enough to trigger an earthgore without needing to dump ult, allowing you to ult bomb when the earthgore rain stops (which coincidentally lasts the same duration as your next round of syncd shalks). The stamplar does not contribute as much to that and is far squishier than stamdens to burst - he will die first every time and cannot be healed through focus ult dump from another team.

For no CP DW > 2H. 2H is dodgable, takes 1 second to cast dizzy swing, and only hits 1 target. DW is instant cast, aoe, unavoidable damage. Steel tornado from 3 people plus 3 deadly cloaks plus 3 shalks is WAY more damage on multiple people than hitting 1 person with dizzyswings and killing them. And the stam sorc variation of that burst is insanity.

For farming zergs or unskilled players with a small group, DW is better.

If you’re up against a good group, 2h is significantly better, especially if multiple people are running it. If one dizzy lands it means three dizzies and three dawnbreakers will land because of the inability to block until the target hits the ground. DW is utterly blockable and the dots purgeable and vulnerable to Counters such as Earthgore.

Remember that dizzy is technically a channel and that the burst damage happens at the very end, meaning you don’t have to wait a full 1s / GCD before your next attack - you can have a dizzy / shalks / DBOS (or reverse slice) all land within .2s if you time it right. This would not give the opponent’s healer (or earthgore) time to react.

I spend a lot of time on both load outs and switch back and forth between them constantly

You realize this is in reference too BGs since its in the BG thread on a BG post, Right? There's no zergs in BGs and you're not on xbox, right? Come to xbox and see which you think performs better. 4 stam DW players all running deadly cloak, steel tornado, dawnbreaker, and shrouded daggers space about a meter apart from each other just spamming steel tornado in no CP BGs. It hits everyone lol I'm not talking burst oon a single player. I'm talking wiping the entire other team in 1 skill global CD. Maybe read this thread again.

Consoles are gross I can’t play without a MMO mouse haha

But you are correct in that there are no zergs in BGs... which is why I run the 2h build in 90% of BGs.

I’m not going to tell you that four spin2wins in a BG won’t be extremely good at defeating PUGs... it would be... but then, any premade should be able to beat a pug.

If I’m going to be able to beat a pug anyway, I’d prefer to build my group so that it is able to beat another skilled 4 man group, complete with a cliche guardplar and earthgore. That is why I would run 2h. Taking longer to kill a PUG is a small sacrifice to make in exchange for being able to defeat a well built, defensively specced 4 man.

Edit: I also understand that 2h abilities are easier to counter on console than on PC. YMMV.

I feel you there is a huge difference between console and pc play. I have played against the spin to win teams on console with my 4 man premade that was mag warden dps healer in fortified brass (me), a magplar, a stam warden, and a mag nightblade. That spin to win combo is insanity. The mag dk fossilized you and you instantly die. I have 26k resistances WITH absorb shield, and 8% minor damage reduction buff and still give dropped like nothing. The thing is they are taking out an entire team in 3 casts of steel tornado.

Like think of this... if each person hits steel tornado with animation cancel 3 times, that 9 steel tornados in about ~3 seconds let's say it only hits a player for 2k damage each. That's 18k damage just from steel tornado, and that's low balling, on ALL players in range. Now the 2 stam wardens hit shalks that hit for 4k each. So another 8k, now youre at 26k damage in 3 seconds. Now deadly cloak 3 times that ticks once for say 1500 damage. Now you're at 30,500 damage in 3 seconds. Let's add 1 dawnbreaker for 5k. So 35,500 damage. But wait . The stam sorc has hurricane going. So let's say only 3k from hurricane. 38,500.

38,500 damage on all players in the area, the majority of which cannot be dodged lol. That is just so stupid. AND that's without light attacks, more ultimates, no critical hits, and low balling the damage output they are doing. If you get hit with fossilize and talons you are done for. There is no way you can survive it. I have seen guard tanks get 35k health zapped in literally a second lol. It's a joke how strong the combo is. You don't need heals when teams can't get any damage off on you because they instantly die.

Thogard

A few things to think about:
1. If your team has all four players stacked on top of each other it deserves to lose to a bomb group.
2. If you’re running a magplar, that player should be comfortable mist forming or blocking that damage. If the mag plar isn’t the target, they can hit a few BoLs and the group will survive. The scenario where the group dies isnif all players are hit simultaneously, which again, means the group deserves to lose
3. Gotta stack vigor’s, that’s 1k/s from three separate players. Rapid regen = another 1k (rounding up) and warden lotus or vines = another 500, and the rally / FM Hot = 500 meaning all in every player should have around 5k hp coming in every second that they’re taking dmg.
4. CC should be able to counter that burst. Javelin would be the best option. There’s nothing stopping you from bursting them first, which a 2h build will be better at since 2h has a native gap closer / snare. DW bomb builds are easy to spot and easy to block if you’re in the open. They are only a nightmare in enclosed spots if you’re forced to push into them.

Hutch679

Thogard wrote: »

A few things to think about:
1. If your team has all four players stacked on top of each other it deserves to lose to a bomb group.
2. If you’re running a magplar, that player should be comfortable mist forming or blocking that damage. If the mag plar isn’t the target, they can hit a few BoLs and the group will survive. The scenario where the group dies isnif all players are hit simultaneously, which again, means the group deserves to lose
3. Gotta stack vigor’s, that’s 1k/s from three separate players. Rapid regen = another 1k (rounding up) and warden lotus or vines = another 500, and the rally / FM Hot = 500 meaning all in every player should have around 5k hp coming in every second that they’re taking dmg.
4. CC should be able to counter that burst. Javelin would be the best option. There’s nothing stopping you from bursting them first, which a 2h build will be better at since 2h has a native gap closer / snare. DW bomb builds are easy to spot and easy to block if you’re in the open. They are only a nightmare in enclosed spots if you’re forced to push into them.

You got to play against it to understand i guess. I told you my stats. You cant survive it dude. I have watched a magplar spam breath of life in heavy armor on a dk stam tank with guard and they literally dropped in less than 2 seconds. You cannot live through it. Yeah i hear you with all the HoTs rolling and BoL spam. Doesnt work. It kills you instantly bro. Again, you must not have run into this sort of group yet. It is DESTROYING on console. I have yet to see anyone beat it. You spread out and then you're playing a man down because the dude that got fossilized is completely defenseless regardless of 3 people spamming heals on him lol. I see you're skeptical. Come to console and witness for youtself. It's cancer.

Hutch679

@Thogard also you have to understand these are the top tier console players getting destroyed by it. They aren't pugs, they aren't solo queues. They are the best on console. 5 stars getting owned, hard. Like you aren't listening homie. They are the plague. The cheddar provolone. The guys that go 22 and 0. You don't just throw out "oh they must be scrubs" lol they are high quality players getting instamelted.

wheem_ESO

Are there any videos of these "spin to win" premades out there? I've been hit for some pretty ridiculous numbers by that nonsense on PC-NA, even without being in execute range, but not so much that it was worse than a 2h burst combo...especially one from something as balanced as a Stamina Warden. Not calling you a liar or anything, I'm just wondering what all they're running to get the damage up there, it'd be good to give ZOS the info they need for nerfage.

Thogard

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Are there any videos of these "spin to win" premades out there? I've been hit for some pretty ridiculous numbers by that nonsense on PC-NA, even without being in execute range, but not so much that it was worse than a 2h burst combo...especially one from something as balanced as a Stamina Warden. Not calling you a liar or anything, I'm just wondering what all they're running to get the damage up there, it'd be good to give ZOS the info they need for nerfage.

When I run my spin2win bomb build I run bloodspawn + clever alch and 7th legion. Wep dmg gets up to around 5.2k in heavy and 6.2k in medium (passive + wep dmg glyph on jewelry)

It’s big burst but it’s easily countered by skilled play on PC NA.

But the flip side is that on consoles due to the slow camera speed rotation, 2h is easily countered by a walkthrough - something that doesn’t work on PC. I’m a brain surgeon with my dizzy spam on pc, 360 no-scoping peeps left and right. Definitely couldn’t do that with a gamepad...

The issues with the group comp hutch is posting is that it is extremely vulnerable to burst and it lacks gap closer mobility (DW’s greatest weakness). No purify and no healer means no ability to compete against a group that pushes faster than it does... and a 2h group would definitely push faster.

Here’s me playing a DW stamden spin2win build in a 4 man bomb group: (2 stamden 1 magplar 1 healthplar (blazing shield/durok))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPVGNNUqBMw

Strong burst but the lack of a gap closer into the sub/DBoS really hurts.

Grimlok_S

4/10, OP. The stamdens need to guard each other and there needs to be a magplar with durok's or meridias.

Edit: read the thread, nevermind, it's been said.