RIDICULOUS Unbalance

Hutch679

So the ultimate 4 man BG premade group...

Stam Sorc
-Dw/2h
-Medium armor
-Hurricane (aoe unavoidable)
-Shrouded daggers (hits multiple targets)
-deadly cloak (aoe unavoidable)
-steel tornado (aoe unavoidable execute)
-dawnbreaker (aoe)

2 Stam Wardens
-dw/2h
-medium armor
-x2 sub assault (aoe unavoidable)
-x2 deadly cloak (aoe unavoidable)
-x2 steel tornado (aoe unavoidable execute)
-x2 shrouded dagger (hits multiple targets)
-dawnbreaker (aoe)

Mag dk
-heavy armor
-block build
-fossilize
-talons
-leap

The dk CCs targets and the rust can practically steel tornado and destroy groups of people. This is the meta ZOS has created. Unavoidable aoe stacking damage and executes. It's basically one big tornado sweeping into a group. The second you get fossilized, youre dead. Dodge roll into a talons? Dead. Cant dodge those aoes. Its so stupid. Lol

Turelus

What does your team consist of and what skills/counters did you use?

Was your group a PUG not using voice comms?

VaranisArano

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

TelvanniWizard

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

Turelus

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

Datolite

Turelus wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

They get set up with 4 man groups alone. Like the rest of the game, if you wanna do 4-man content as a smaller group go for it, just don't expect an easy time.

The thing is, right now it's a few premades here and there ruining the experience for 80% of the BG crowd. If there were separate ques, there would be premade guilds dedicated to them out of necessity (just like with Cyro), and therefore all players would have a much easier time filling up 4 man groups.

Win win.

Turelus

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

They get set up with 4 man groups alone. Like the rest of the game, if you wanna do 4-man content as a smaller group go for it, just don't expect an easy time.

The thing is, right now it's a few premades here and there ruining the experience for 80% of the BG crowd. If there were separate ques, there would be premade guilds dedicated to them out of necessity (just like with Cyro), and therefore all players would have a much easier time filling up 4 man groups.

Win win.

So under your system if me and two of my friends want to do BG as a group, but don't have a 4th available we have to fight 3v4v4?
That seems like a great way to discourage trios of friends from partaking in them. I agree premades vs total PUGs is a fairness issue but your system seems to be unfair on trio groups.

Assuming you're allowing duo groups to be matched together to make a full team doesn't that still add in an element where non-full groups get placed against entirely grouped teams and suffer unfairly?

Hutch679

Turelus wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

They get set up with 4 man groups alone. Like the rest of the game, if you wanna do 4-man content as a smaller group go for it, just don't expect an easy time.

The thing is, right now it's a few premades here and there ruining the experience for 80% of the BG crowd. If there were separate ques, there would be premade guilds dedicated to them out of necessity (just like with Cyro), and therefore all players would have a much easier time filling up 4 man groups.

Win win.

So under your system if me and two of my friends want to do BG as a group, but don't have a 4th available we have to fight 3v4v4?
That seems like a great way to discourage trios of friends from partaking in them. I agree premades vs total PUGs is a fairness issue but your system seems to be unfair on trio groups.

Assuming you're allowing duo groups to be matched together to make a full team doesn't that still add in an element where non-full groups get placed against entirely grouped teams and suffer unfairly?

No. You get your friends in the game, then you are paired with some dude queuing solo that is garbage and runs off on his own. Maybe one team is all solo queue players. Then the other team is a ridiculously organized team that has builds that all complement each other or stack unavoidable damage. It would be similar to 3 sorcs and a magplar all running eye of the storm, the magplar using the stun gap closer with grothdar and serving you all down at the same time.

ol_BANK_lo

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

They get set up with 4 man groups alone. Like the rest of the game, if you wanna do 4-man content as a smaller group go for it, just don't expect an easy time.

The thing is, right now it's a few premades here and there ruining the experience for 80% of the BG crowd. If there were separate ques, there would be premade guilds dedicated to them out of necessity (just like with Cyro), and therefore all players would have a much easier time filling up 4 man groups.

Win win.

There needs to be separate queues...just like Black Ops 2. Just finished an Under 50 Deathmatch where the premade won 510-45-15. Their team went 34-0 k/d. It was a combo of mag dk and stam wardens. So ridiculous. I am usually number 1 on my team in most game types with this character...but this was just stupid.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel

ol_BANK_lo

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

They get set up with 4 man groups alone. Like the rest of the game, if you wanna do 4-man content as a smaller group go for it, just don't expect an easy time.

The thing is, right now it's a few premades here and there ruining the experience for 80% of the BG crowd. If there were separate ques, there would be premade guilds dedicated to them out of necessity (just like with Cyro), and therefore all players would have a much easier time filling up 4 man groups.

Win win.

There needs to be separate queues...just like Black Ops 2. Just finished an Under 50 Deathmatch where the premade won 510-45-15. Their team went 34-0 k/d. It was a combo of mag dk and stam wardens. So ridiculous. I am usually number 1 on my team in most game types with this character...but this was just stupid.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel

Btw, I still had the most points of the eight people on the losing teams...which isn't saying much.

Hutch679

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

They get set up with 4 man groups alone. Like the rest of the game, if you wanna do 4-man content as a smaller group go for it, just don't expect an easy time.

The thing is, right now it's a few premades here and there ruining the experience for 80% of the BG crowd. If there were separate ques, there would be premade guilds dedicated to them out of necessity (just like with Cyro), and therefore all players would have a much easier time filling up 4 man groups.

Win win.

There needs to be separate queues...just like Black Ops 2. Just finished an Under 50 Deathmatch where the premade won 510-45-15. Their team went 34-0 k/d. It was a combo of mag dk and stam wardens. So ridiculous. I am usually number 1 on my team in most game types with this character...but this was just stupid.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel

See that's the meta. 3 stam zergers and a mag dk to cc everyone. You cant escape the steel tornado spam with sub assaults and deadly cloak....

Chilly-McFreeze

How comes everybody complains about steel tornado lately? It was undodgeable before. It pulled you out of stealth before. Only thing that limited it was the aoe caps, but that should hardly matter in BGs.

Hutch679

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

How comes everybody complains about steel tornado lately? It was undodgeable before. It pulled you out of stealth before. Only thing that limited it was the aoe caps, but that should hardly matter in BGs.

Stamina classes are more powerful in no CP environment because dodge remains a 100% negate of damage same as CP environment, but light armor magic builds have a significant decrease to their shield potency. Thus, steel tornado stacking is more effective in a no CP environment which is why it is now being scrutinized. Same reason stamblades are being looked at so hard. They overperform in no cp.

VaranisArano

Turelus wrote: »

datoliteb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So like the ball groups of Cyrodiil?

You know, those large groups playing together and using their skills in an organized fashion to play pretty much how ZOS intended all those skiill to work, but its done by an organized group so it's totally OP in combination against any group less coordinated than themselves?

You can nerf all those skills and all their classes, but their secret weapon is organization and you can't nerf that. You can balance it, maybe, with a separate queue for premades, but you cant need it.

Separate queues for BG´s would be a really nice and useful addition.

How does it work if a 3/4 group queues? Do they go into the "ungrouped" or the "grouped" and force a random player into a grouped environment.

They get set up with 4 man groups alone. Like the rest of the game, if you wanna do 4-man content as a smaller group go for it, just don't expect an easy time.

The thing is, right now it's a few premades here and there ruining the experience for 80% of the BG crowd. If there were separate ques, there would be premade guilds dedicated to them out of necessity (just like with Cyro), and therefore all players would have a much easier time filling up 4 man groups.

Win win.

So under your system if me and two of my friends want to do BG as a group, but don't have a 4th available we have to fight 3v4v4?
That seems like a great way to discourage trios of friends from partaking in them. I agree premades vs total PUGs is a fairness issue but your system seems to be unfair on trio groups.

Assuming you're allowing duo groups to be matched together to make a full team doesn't that still add in an element where non-full groups get placed against entirely grouped teams and suffer unfairly?

My assumption is that there would be 3 queues.

One for people who want to fight anyone and everyone. Some randoms don't care about fighting pre-mades.
One for pre-made groups of 3 or 4, that would take data to decide
One for randoms who only want to fight randoms

The extra spots on the premade teams would be filled by people in the queue to fight anyone and everyone, thus giving those people the fastest possible queue. So you'd still have 4v4v3+1 but the 1 person would have agreed to fight with pre-made groups from joining that queue.

It's an idea, so I'm definitely open to suggestions.

Hutch679

I mean honestly it's the problem of pvp balance between CP and noncp. The CP system is the dumbest *** I've ever heard of in a game. It's so unbalanced against skills. So once you remove the defense and resource gains from CP your e left with an overbearing amount of incoming damage from builds. Fights literally only last seconds. Dumbest combat style ever. Pve content bosses take 5 to 10 minutes and pvp fights are 7 seconds.

VaranisArano

Hutch679 wrote: »

I mean honestly it's the problem of pvp balance between CP and noncp. The CP system is the dumbest *** I've ever heard of in a game. It's so unbalanced against skills. So once you remove the defense and resource gains from CP your e left with an overbearing amount of incoming damage from builds. Fights literally only last seconds. Dumbest combat style ever. Pve content bosses take 5 to 10 minutes and pvp fights are 7 seconds.

Bosses also have 1.5 million+ health and the average player has considerable less than that, so...

Honestly, I can't quite figure out your point here. Battlegrounds are all No CP (because ZOS tried CP battlegrounds and realized that certain CP builds are harder to balance in a 4v4v4 environment but are completely fine in Cyrodiil where there are a lot more players and trying to balance those two things made ZOS go nope, nope, nope!), so therefore I'd expect no one to gain an advantage or be at a disadvantage because of their CP or lack thereof, unless they completely failed to take into account the build changes they need to make to be successful in No CP PVP.

Asmael

Remove that mag DK, replace by a magicka warden for healing.

Having a heavy armor build with no mobility is a bad idea in BGs against proper groups. Being forced in a confrontation where you can't burst down your enemies right away proves troublesome without a healer (hello Earthgore + healing ult), assuming the enemy team is running with a lot of AoEs.

Magicka Warden has Nature's grasp to keep up with the medium armor builds when sprinting around the map. Fossilize for the timed group burst is indeed a strong pick, but the stam sorc also has Rune Prison if needed, which keeping his high AoE potency.

Ultimately, I've run with a heavily single target focused group, which is not an issue in premade vs premade, since whoever gets the first kill gets to wipe the other team from my experience.

...And yush, I'd be up for separate queues if we get (a lot) more people to be interested in BGs.

Thogard

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

ToRelax

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

^ this

Also, a large part of why this warden focused group setup works so well is Shimmering Shield. Without that, this group will get into serious trouble against a magicka focused group with some ground AoE.

Hutch679

VaranisArano wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

I mean honestly it's the problem of pvp balance between CP and noncp. The CP system is the dumbest *** I've ever heard of in a game. It's so unbalanced against skills. So once you remove the defense and resource gains from CP your e left with an overbearing amount of incoming damage from builds. Fights literally only last seconds. Dumbest combat style ever. Pve content bosses take 5 to 10 minutes and pvp fights are 7 seconds.

Bosses also have 1.5 million+ health and the average player has considerable less than that, so...

Honestly, I can't quite figure out your point here. Battlegrounds are all No CP (because ZOS tried CP battlegrounds and realized that certain CP builds are harder to balance in a 4v4v4 environment but are completely fine in Cyrodiil where there are a lot more players and trying to balance those two things made ZOS go nope, nope, nope!), so therefore I'd expect no one to gain an advantage or be at a disadvantage because of their CP or lack thereof, unless they completely failed to take into account the build changes they need to make to be successful in No CP PVP.

The game operates 90% in a CP environment. Only things no CP are one pvp campaign and bgs. Therefore a reasonable assumption can be made that a no CP environment will have more imbalances because you can't have both. If you think certain classes don't have an advantage in a no CP environment we must be playing two different games. You cant figure out my point but I clearly explained it... read my post again. Here actually I'll spell it out for you.

When you remove CP defense bonuses and additional resource points, youre left with an exorbant amount of damage being dealt to players. That is, the damage is way higher than defenses can filter out. So you end up with 3 to 6 second fights instead of 20 to 45 second fights.

Make sense? I mean you want pvp fights to last seconds? They dont need to go 5 minutes, but I mean meet in the middle somewhere. In it's current state it's seriously ridiculous!

UppGRAYxDD

Lol....meta! Im guessing you have not run into the 4 deep high regen magplar groups yet. Theres a few on xbox and the are almost unkillable. One gets in trouble, the other three just wave the dmg away. Not to mention that purifying light is stacking atm.

Hutch679

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

I run as a tanky hybrid dps/healer on my warden in bgs. It's EXTREMELY successful. I run 5 fortified brass light, 1 domihaus, 5 caluurion. My max magicka is low (30k), but I have 26k resistance, 1900 recovery, 12k stamina, 2800 spell damage buffed. The deep fissure, cliff racer, soul assault combo is completely ridiculous. My 4 man group last night was 3 magblades and myself. We ran 4 soul assaults and it was just super cheese..... We did have issues against 3 stam, 1 healer teams though. The stam melee just keeps up constant pressure.....

Hutch679

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Lol....meta! Im guessing you have not run into the 4 deep high regen magplar groups yet. Theres a few on xbox and the are almost unkillable. One gets in trouble, the other three just wave the dmg away. Not to mention that purifying light is stacking atm.

We've run into them. They are pretty tough, but we have beatt them. They just spam jabs. As stam users with deadly cloak on, their jabs do 20% less damage. Easy to deal with to be honest. You just cc the healer and one guy soul assaults him while you destroy the other templars. They cant spam heals forever in no CP.

UppGRAYxDD

Hutch679 wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Lol....meta! Im guessing you have not run into the 4 deep high regen magplar groups yet. Theres a few on xbox and the are almost unkillable. One gets in trouble, the other three just wave the dmg away. Not to mention that purifying light is stacking atm.

We've run into them. They are pretty tough, but we have beatt them. They just spam jabs. As stam users with deadly cloak on, their jabs do 20% less damage. Easy to deal with to be honest. You just cc the healer and one guy soul assaults him while you destroy the other templars. They cant spam heals forever in no CP.

Then you really haven't run into the groups Im talking about. Good team players all running a decent magicka pool, super regen(stam and magicka), and will all mistform out of any sticky situation. As for your proposed grouping, it will work. Any good composition or any group that plays well together can have massive success in BGs simply due to the asinine decision to lump all players into one que. They should rework the Que to allow players to choose between random queing and group queing. I.E: all solo players or groups of 2 will que together while groups of 3-4 will always que against groups of 3-4 and solos would fill in the gaps. This would eliminate the situations where 2 of the three teams are all randoms going up againts a prebuilt squad. Also, I would add a global ranking for team que and a keep the one already for solos and add the option to CHOOSE WHICH MODE TO QUE INTO!!! I still dont know why we are still forced to choose a grab bag... @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_MichaelServotte @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_BillE It's time already.

Hutch679

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Lol....meta! Im guessing you have not run into the 4 deep high regen magplar groups yet. Theres a few on xbox and the are almost unkillable. One gets in trouble, the other three just wave the dmg away. Not to mention that purifying light is stacking atm.

We've run into them. They are pretty tough, but we have beatt them. They just spam jabs. As stam users with deadly cloak on, their jabs do 20% less damage. Easy to deal with to be honest. You just cc the healer and one guy soul assaults him while you destroy the other templars. They cant spam heals forever in no CP.

Then you really haven't run into the groups Im talking about. Good team players all running a decent magicka pool, super regen(stam and magicka), and will all mistform out of any sticky situation. As for your proposed grouping, it will work. Any good composition or any group that plays well together can have massive success in BGs simply due to the asinine decision to lump all players into one que. They should rework the Que to allow players to choose between random queing and group queing. I.E: all solo players or groups of 2 will que together while groups of 3-4 will always que against groups of 3-4 and solos would fill in the gaps. This would eliminate the situations where 2 of the three teams are all randoms going up againts a prebuilt squad. Also, I would add a global ranking for team que and a keep the one already for solos and add the option to CHOOSE WHICH MODE TO QUE INTO!!! I still dont know why we are still forced to choose a grab bag... @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_MichaelServotte @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_BillE It's time already.

I've run into all the top tier bg players on xbox, and played with many of them. Look on the leader boards and you'll see my GT. Obviously leaderboards only mean score and not skill. But once you get up high enough you've played against everyone. I'm on there every week, sometimes on multiple characters.

VaranisArano

Hutch679 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

I mean honestly it's the problem of pvp balance between CP and noncp. The CP system is the dumbest *** I've ever heard of in a game. It's so unbalanced against skills. So once you remove the defense and resource gains from CP your e left with an overbearing amount of incoming damage from builds. Fights literally only last seconds. Dumbest combat style ever. Pve content bosses take 5 to 10 minutes and pvp fights are 7 seconds.

Bosses also have 1.5 million+ health and the average player has considerable less than that, so...

Honestly, I can't quite figure out your point here. Battlegrounds are all No CP (because ZOS tried CP battlegrounds and realized that certain CP builds are harder to balance in a 4v4v4 environment but are completely fine in Cyrodiil where there are a lot more players and trying to balance those two things made ZOS go nope, nope, nope!), so therefore I'd expect no one to gain an advantage or be at a disadvantage because of their CP or lack thereof, unless they completely failed to take into account the build changes they need to make to be successful in No CP PVP.

The game operates 90% in a CP environment. Only things no CP are one pvp campaign and bgs. Therefore a reasonable assumption can be made that a no CP environment will have more imbalances because you can't have both. If you think certain classes don't have an advantage in a no CP environment we must be playing two different games. You cant figure out my point but I clearly explained it... read my post again. Here actually I'll spell it out for you.

When you remove CP defense bonuses and additional resource points, youre left with an exorbant amount of damage being dealt to players. That is, the damage is way higher than defenses can filter out. So you end up with 3 to 6 second fights instead of 20 to 45 second fights.

Make sense? I mean you want pvp fights to last seconds? They dont need to go 5 minutes, but I mean meet in the middle somewhere. In it's current state it's seriously ridiculous!

I play in CP PVP Cyrodiil and thats my stated preference. My confusion was over whether you thought CP PVP or No CP PVP was dumb. Thank you for clarify that you dislike No CP BGs for the reasons stated.

That being said, one of the major complaints people had about CP BGs was the slow pace and predominace of builds that used their CP for high defense, resulting in slower battles and builds that were very hard to kill in a 4v4v4 environment.

No CP Battlegrounds are, as you noted, much faster paced and don't allow for extremely tank builds. For most people, that's been a positive change from the slow pace and unlikable builds of CP BGs.

There's other reasons, of course, namely that new players can hop right in without complaining about grinding to 720 CP in order to be competitive. But ultimately, it comes down the very thing you don't like. Most players want BGs to be fast paced and competitive. CP BGs made defensive builds the most effective builds and thus slowed the pace dramatically.

I love CP PVP. I wanted a CP option for BGs from the beginning. Then ZOS actually did CP BGs and...it didn't work out all that well. If,you want fast-paced competitive, team matches, No CP turned out to be the best option.

Anethum

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

Thogard

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

I’ve run that before in organized 4v4 tourneys. The group comp I listed above is stronger.

3 shalks stacked onto dizzy / bird / force pulse is enough to trigger an earthgore without needing to dump ult, allowing you to ult bomb when the earthgore rain stops (which coincidentally lasts the same duration as your next round of syncd shalks). The stamplar does not contribute as much to that and is far squishier than stamdens to burst - he will die first every time and cannot be healed through focus ult dump from another team.

Hutch679

Thogard wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

I’ve run that before in organized 4v4 tourneys. The group comp I listed above is stronger.

3 shalks stacked onto dizzy / bird / force pulse is enough to trigger an earthgore without needing to dump ult, allowing you to ult bomb when the earthgore rain stops (which coincidentally lasts the same duration as your next round of syncd shalks). The stamplar does not contribute as much to that and is far squishier than stamdens to burst - he will die first every time and cannot be healed through focus ult dump from another team.

For no CP DW > 2H. 2H is dodgable, takes 1 second to cast dizzy swing, and only hits 1 target. DW is instant cast, aoe, unavoidable damage. Steel tornado from 3 people plus 3 deadly cloaks plus 3 shalks is WAY more damage on multiple people than hitting 1 person with dizzyswings and killing them. And the stam sorc variation of that burst is insanity.

del9

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

Yeah a stamplar + magplar seems pretty redundant. If anything, if you are running a speed/extension self sustaining 4 man maybe 3 stamden + stamplar just for the purify and jabs aoe, or 2 stamden 1 stamplar 1 magden if you have a friend who insists on running stamplar. But they will go down faster than any warden or magplar if focused.

Thogard

Hutch679 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

You need a purify.

The optimal setup for 4v4 is closer to 2x stamden, 1x magden, 1x magplar

Can swap magplar for stamplar if magden is Tanky heals, but being a tanky healer is hard for a magden in no cp.

1 stamden+1stamplar+1magden+1magplar will provide more buffs, debuffs, more complicated to counter and damn broken

I’ve run that before in organized 4v4 tourneys. The group comp I listed above is stronger.

3 shalks stacked onto dizzy / bird / force pulse is enough to trigger an earthgore without needing to dump ult, allowing you to ult bomb when the earthgore rain stops (which coincidentally lasts the same duration as your next round of syncd shalks). The stamplar does not contribute as much to that and is far squishier than stamdens to burst - he will die first every time and cannot be healed through focus ult dump from another team.

For no CP DW > 2H. 2H is dodgable, takes 1 second to cast dizzy swing, and only hits 1 target. DW is instant cast, aoe, unavoidable damage. Steel tornado from 3 people plus 3 deadly cloaks plus 3 shalks is WAY more damage on multiple people than hitting 1 person with dizzyswings and killing them. And the stam sorc variation of that burst is insanity.

For farming zergs or unskilled players with a small group, DW is better.

If you’re up against a good group, 2h is significantly better, especially if multiple people are running it. If one dizzy lands it means three dizzies and three dawnbreakers will land because of the inability to block until the target hits the ground. DW is utterly blockable and the dots purgeable and vulnerable to Counters such as Earthgore.

Remember that dizzy is technically a channel and that the burst damage happens at the very end, meaning you don’t have to wait a full 1s / GCD before your next attack - you can have a dizzy / shalks / DBOS (or reverse slice) all land within .2s if you time it right. This would not give the opponent’s healer (or earthgore) time to react.

I spend a lot of time on both load outs and switch back and forth between them constantly