Oils arent a defense

badmojo

It seems like any time I am defending an outpost or smaller keep our defense strategy is to position 90% of our forces on the top balcony dropping oils and ranged abilities on the attackers below. What happens most of the time is the enemy simply runs past the falling oils, wipes the floor with the 3-4 brave souls defending the flags and proceeds to cap before running up whichever side has less oils and clearing out the stragglers hiding upatairs.

Oils can be a great tool for defending, but they rely heavily on friendly players holding the fight under them to be effective. Then why do so many people sit upstairs and watch the enemy rush the flags? Once the enemies make it from the front door to the back flag, we have lost, that back flag is the end zone and almost nobody tries to stop them from getting there.

Obviously there are exceptions where a good organozed group will jump down and wipe them on the flags, but people dying defending the flags wont prevent that from happening, it actually helps. What doesnt really help is people preserving their own lives by ranging enemies from safety. What do you want to live that long for anyway? So you can watch the outpost change colors? So you can be chased down by the entire enemy zerg? You had your chance to play, it was when the front door came down, but you decided to hide up top and let the heroes of your alliance die with honor attempting to save an outpost you were too proud to die for.

ofSunhold

The ungrouped PVPers don't lack courage, just direction. They need things explained - and since that population refreshes pretty often, they need them explained many times. They need to see people succeed with a tactic, and then they will adopt it themselves.

My opinion, anyway. Most people do want to play, not just survive. They're just inexperienced.

Sanctum74

There's nothing more frustrating then wiping half the group on the flags just to watch them all revive because people want to sit upstairs spamming light attacks or they are still pouring oils outside the keep instead of inside where all the enemies actually are.

Marcus684

Oils above the front porch are best used to slow down attackers by preventing them from ramming the door down. Once they actually get inside, defenders need to shift to holding the attackers off the flags. Inexperienced players just get too focused on what they’re doing, and have a hard time making that shift when they still see enemies below their oil.

DocFrost72

Question since I'm still relatively green as grass- situationally better to set up a fire ballista and pour aoe discouragement on the back flag? Or is it 100% always better to drop on front flag once enemy goes by it to backcap?

NirnStorm

I agree with just about everything in this post, @badmojo, but do keep in mind most of the people in this forum that will bother to read this thread are likely a little past the stage of "lets hide upstairs till the bad guys go away".

The only way to make anything change is actually guiding the random casuals, explaining and yelling time after time that they need to defend the keep better. When they will see the attempt to defend the flags being successful, they will try to follow your lead and do the same.

...Then they will wipe and run back upstairs next time.
Welcome to ESO PvP where the top 10% of players dominate the other 90% who have no clue what to do and how to play.

NirnStorm

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Question since I'm still relatively green as grass- situationally better to set up a fire ballista and pour aoe discouragement on the back flag? Or is it 100% always better to drop on front flag once enemy goes by it to backcap?

The effect of sieges and oils only lasts a couple of seconds, so it's good to have it on both or either, however the only real way to benifit from using those is to pour them over a place where the enemies will remain static i.e. where they are fighting an opposing group

Ixtyr

Oils aren't a defense?

@Joy_Division may have a bone to pick with you, sir.

Royaji

It also heavily depends if you are playing in CP or no-CP. Oils (and siege in general) hurt a lot in Sotha Sil...

Agrippa_Invisus

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Question since I'm still relatively green as grass- situationally better to set up a fire ballista and pour aoe discouragement on the back flag? Or is it 100% always better to drop on front flag once enemy goes by it to backcap?

In an outpost or an Imperial keep:

The goal should be to deny them the back flag with withering AOE and strong counter attacks so that the oils on the steps win by attrition against those enemy that are holding the front flag.

That's in a situation where you are badly outnumbered and only have a small group to push with. If you have a large defense, you can deny entry into the Nave area of the keep entirely with combined oils, aoe, and siege.

The back flag should almost always have a meatbag cat (and not a ballista) shooting forward, with coldfire ballistae to each side firing onto the back flag and with oil above said ballistae to protect them from someone trying to gank the operator.

It's a little different with a side breach, instead of FD. Oils should be up on both ledges (in case breachers cross over the flag). There should be siege in the nave hitting the apse, then there should be siege at the top of each staircase. Defending counterattackers should be stationed on the roof, ready to react to wherever the enemy tries to head when breaching.

Inner keeps such as Faregyl and Arrius can get many, many more oils up. That's where the oil drops can get extremely devastating and the keep is best defended at the stair junction leading to 2nd/3rd floors. Crush the initial push into the keep there, and then counter attack to reclaim any flags that have been flipped, then push them out the breach.

ofSunhold

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Question since I'm still relatively green as grass- situationally better to set up a fire ballista and pour aoe discouragement on the back flag? Or is it 100% always better to drop on front flag once enemy goes by it to backcap?

Depends. If they're sprinting to the back flag dropping Eye of Flame, you're not going to do any good standing back there. Otherwise it's almost always better for you to at least be down on the same floor with the invaders. Set your ballistae by the flag and hit them as they come in the door and they may never make it to the back flag. You have a few precious seconds when they come through the door when they don't know where the defenders are or what you have to drop on them. Make sure your ult is ready for the two tanky guys who make it to you.

It does always depend on their group comp and how many defenders you have - and your classes and specs - but everybody staying up above is never going to be a winning strategy. Better still if you go down and wipe them before they breach at all. Two or three squishy types is enough to drop lots of oil, and if they can't flag you have infinite rezzes.

That's for CP. Oils are much more powerful in non-CP, and if oilers are wearing vicious death you can actually wipe a group that doesn't scatter fast enough.

Edit: Oops, my bad, I thought we were specifically talking about outposts.

VaranisArano

Ixtyr wrote: »

Oils aren't a defense?

Joy_Division may have a bone to pick with you, sir.

I think its pretty clear from context that oils alone aren't sufficient defense. Or even, I would argue, oils backed up by other siege unless the siege is overwhelming or the attackers aren't organized.

Reverb

The problem I see on the DC (na) side lately is that there are like 6 of us to defend against an entire raid+ of enemy forces, while the bulk of our pugs are somewhere inconsequential and our few guilds are somewhere presumably strategically important but not defending.

Anyone who tries to hold the flags in such a circumstance will just be the first to die. Been there, done that - a lot. Now I join the ranks of people throwing siege and snares from the top, hoping the handful of us there can occupy the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

It works like 25% of the time. Putting 5-6 of us on the flags against 25 rushing attackers works closer to 0% of the time

badmojo

True about the non-cp oils being more effective. This thread is specific to what I see happening in Vivec on PC/NA.

badmojo

Reverb wrote: »

The problem I see on the DC (na) side lately is that there are like 6 of us to defend against an entire raid+ of enemy forces, while the bulk of our pugs are somewhere inconsequential and our few guilds are presumably strategically important but not defending.

Anyone who tries to hold the flags in such a circumstance will just be the first to die. Been there, done that - a lot. Now I join the ranks of people throwing siege and snares from the top, hoping the handful of us there can occupy the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

It works like 25% of the time. Putting 5-6 of us on the flags against 25 rushing attackers works closer to 0% of the time

This^ is the issue I see. We have the numbers to mount a counter attack, but people have been burned by other players not helping so many times they stop trying. I am guilty of it too, but its still bad strategy, and if the good players keep sitting up top helping a bad strategy, all we are doing is reinforcing bad habbits, especially when it works.

I say let the keep or outpost fall if our team is being dumb and waiting to be saved by a guild rushing in at the last minute. Also, you can still be saved while laying dead on the flags.

ofSunhold

Reverb wrote: »

The problem I see on the DC (na) side lately is that there are like 6 of us to defend against an entire raid+ of enemy forces, while the bulk of our pugs are somewhere inconsequential and our few guilds are somewhere presumably strategically important but not defending.

Anyone who tries to hold the flags in such a circumstance will just be the first to die. Been there, done that - a lot. Now I join the ranks of people throwing siege and snares from the top, hoping the handful of us there can occupy the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

It works like 25% of the time. Putting 5-6 of us on the flags against 25 rushing attackers works closer to 0% of the time

Yeah. Is the issue that defensive AP is trash, and there are a lot of people whose highest priority is getting AP? It can be hard to get defenders even if you delay extremely well.

Sanctum74

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Question since I'm still relatively green as grass- situationally better to set up a fire ballista and pour aoe discouragement on the back flag? Or is it 100% always better to drop on front flag once enemy goes by it to backcap?

I prefer the front flag/door since you want to try to prevent them from getting upstairs and setting up their own oils. In between drops throw downs some aoe's like caltrops, endless hail, liquid lightning, blazing spear since they can all be done from upstairs.

A meat bag and lightning ballista is also helpful since they drain magic and lowers healing making it that much harder to recover from all that AOE damage. I'd recommend cold fire, but most people won't set them up since they are more rare and a good chance you might lose it in the defense, but definitely better than a fire ballista if you have one.

If your downstairs then keep those aoe's up and bomb them when they push in. Doesn't have to be a destro bomb; northern storm, bats, negates, or any other AOE ult is very helpful. Focus on the squishes and if the tanks keep trying to revive then bash or cc them and keep the pressure on dps and healers then kill the tanks last. 10 people trying to kill a tank doesn't help if the other players are getting revived not to mention the tanks are usually trying to set you up to get bombed.

Beardimus

Done right oils can be deadly. It's the doing right people don't get

Kartalin

Reverb wrote: »

The problem I see on the DC (na) side lately is that there are like 6 of us to defend against an entire raid+ of enemy forces, while the bulk of our pugs are somewhere inconsequential and our few guilds are somewhere presumably strategically important but not defending.

Anyone who tries to hold the flags in such a circumstance will just be the first to die. Been there, done that - a lot. Now I join the ranks of people throwing siege and snares from the top, hoping the handful of us there can occupy the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

It works like 25% of the time. Putting 5-6 of us on the flags against 25 rushing attackers works closer to 0% of the time

badmojo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

The problem I see on the DC (na) side lately is that there are like 6 of us to defend against an entire raid+ of enemy forces, while the bulk of our pugs are somewhere inconsequential and our few guilds are presumably strategically important but not defending.

Anyone who tries to hold the flags in such a circumstance will just be the first to die. Been there, done that - a lot. Now I join the ranks of people throwing siege and snares from the top, hoping the handful of us there can occupy the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

It works like 25% of the time. Putting 5-6 of us on the flags against 25 rushing attackers works closer to 0% of the time

This^ is the issue I see. We have the numbers to mount a counter attack, but people have been burned by other players not helping so many times they stop trying. I am guilty of it too, but its still bad strategy, and if the good players keep sitting up top helping a bad strategy, all we are doing is reinforcing bad habbits, especially when it works.

I say let the keep or outpost fall if our team is being dumb and waiting to be saved by a guild rushing in at the last minute. Also, you can still be saved while laying dead on the flags.

I think the heart of the problem is players would rather be on the attacking side then defending, largely due to the difference in AP gain between the two. We'll show up at a keep at times, be the only defenders there, and if we win we're rewarded with 1-2 thousand AP for our troubles. And if any other faction players show up at the last minute when it's already defended, they share in the spoils despite not helping at all. You can literally just be present at a keep capture and earn more AP without doing anything than when surviving a hard fought battle to save a keep from falling. But we keep showing up to defend because it's a ton more fun than zerging down a mostly empty keep. That's our reward, we just wish the AP gains were more commensurate with our contribution versus other players.

geonsocal

i 'd just like to add - i love pouring oil on folks...i mean, it's gotta be one of my favorite aspects of the game...

particularly if you have VD equipped...it's those simple pleasures in life that mean so much...what a joy

Sugaroverdose

ofSunhold wrote: »

The ungrouped PVPers don't lack courage, just direction. They need things explained - and since that population refreshes pretty often, they need them explained many times. They need to see people succeed with a tactic, and then they will adopt it themselves.

My opinion, anyway. Most people do want to play, not just survive. They're just inexperienced.

i do not play in groups, but mostly dies on front of broken door since ps4 release. And I do see how people just run away from battle even with non-ua keep behind them, so there’s a lot of people who afraid to die in cyro, without any reason

VaranisArano

Kartalin wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

The problem I see on the DC (na) side lately is that there are like 6 of us to defend against an entire raid+ of enemy forces, while the bulk of our pugs are somewhere inconsequential and our few guilds are somewhere presumably strategically important but not defending.

Anyone who tries to hold the flags in such a circumstance will just be the first to die. Been there, done that - a lot. Now I join the ranks of people throwing siege and snares from the top, hoping the handful of us there can occupy the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

It works like 25% of the time. Putting 5-6 of us on the flags against 25 rushing attackers works closer to 0% of the time

badmojo wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

The problem I see on the DC (na) side lately is that there are like 6 of us to defend against an entire raid+ of enemy forces, while the bulk of our pugs are somewhere inconsequential and our few guilds are presumably strategically important but not defending.

Anyone who tries to hold the flags in such a circumstance will just be the first to die. Been there, done that - a lot. Now I join the ranks of people throwing siege and snares from the top, hoping the handful of us there can occupy the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

It works like 25% of the time. Putting 5-6 of us on the flags against 25 rushing attackers works closer to 0% of the time

This^ is the issue I see. We have the numbers to mount a counter attack, but people have been burned by other players not helping so many times they stop trying. I am guilty of it too, but its still bad strategy, and if the good players keep sitting up top helping a bad strategy, all we are doing is reinforcing bad habbits, especially when it works.

I say let the keep or outpost fall if our team is being dumb and waiting to be saved by a guild rushing in at the last minute. Also, you can still be saved while laying dead on the flags.

I think the heart of the problem is players would rather be on the attacking side then defending, largely due to the difference in AP gain between the two. We'll show up at a keep at times, be the only defenders there, and if we win we're rewarded with 1-2 thousand AP for our troubles. And if any other faction players show up at the last minute when it's already defended, they share in the spoils despite not helping at all. You can literally just be present at a keep capture and earn more AP without doing anything than when surviving a hard fought battle to save a keep from falling. But we keep showing up to defend because it's a ton more fun than zerging down a mostly empty keep. That's our reward, we just wish the AP gains were more commensurate with our contribution versus other players.

In contrast, I'll show up at a keep under attack if I think there's time for me to do any good during daytime play (primetime play is a little different with many more players online).

If I see 15/20 siege go up on CyrHUD and the keep flags 10-20 seconds later, I'm probably not going to run from the nearest keep to go save it. Unless there was already a substantial force nearby or already in the keep or I see a large group of allies head there, honestly, that keep is as good as gone. I'm far better off finishing whatever I was doing and joining up with the force going to recapture it instead.

If I see early zone warnings, callouts, or the enemy movement is predictable and I have time to get to a Transitus shrine and port before it flags or I think there's time to ride in to defend the keep before it falls, I'm much more likely to ride to the defense. I don't mind defending ultimately doomed keeps if we lose it despite early warnings, but if you want defenders to come to a keep, early and good zone callouts like "DC raid, Bleakers FD" are essential. Once you've got 15/20 siege pounding away and the keep flags, don't expect too many useful reinforcements unless a faction raid has nothing better to do at that exact moment.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease and the keep with the earliest and best zone chat callouts gets the defenders.

Xsorus

Siege in general only works on ungrouped players; against a zergball it will do nothing

Ghostbane

You can have up to 8 oils on the inside of a keep, over the front flag. The ancient term of fear, 'Corridor of Oils' is the gauntlet the conquerors have to take. For large scale defences, you can also have 2-3 on top of the posterns, because some of the landing dips into the back flag.

The people manning the oils should technically be the only people on the 2nd floor and the stairs. Although experienced healers, heavy ranged dps and negate wielders can have a big advantage being on the stairs also. Stairs, not 2nd floor

The bulk of the manned defence should be between the flags, in front of the back flag, or line of sighting in that doorway. In all small keeps and outposts, there is only one way to that backflag, through the doorway. It is a choke, most defences fail to utilise this.

If a smart defence is doing this, this means the outter hall with the front flag, with our 8 oils, negates, ranged dps, has turned from a Corridor, to a holding pen of AP.

For whatever reason, most defences stack themselves on the 2nd, continuously dropping oils and pianos onto the porch, even when the bulk of the assault are already on the backflag. Only then, do some of these attic dwellers think it would be a good time to re-position. Of course by then it is already too late.

Sacredx

badmojo wrote: »

Oils can be a great tool for defending

^ this.

I don't think it's fair to name the title of the thread "oils aren't a defence' when clearly they are a major factor when defending. Sure, oils alone can be overcome via easy counters, but together with cc, damage, negate etc etc they are an awesome tool and arguably the most important tool for defending.

Sandman929

I think of oils as an organization test for the enemy when we're using them, and a healing test for our group when we're just standing in them.
Oils are very strong against the ungrouped or poorly composed groups.

QuebraRegra

remember the days of ground oils?

umagon

When defending players can’t hold anyone in place; rapids plus players being able to clip through defending players models makes that impossible. If players could body block the bottom of the stairs, and those smaller doors then controlling enemy movement would be possible. Which would make oil’s more effective because defending players could block stairwell doors around the back flag and hold off players from the front flag even with both walls and the gate down; while outside defenders try clean up reestablish control of the perimeter.

Random people don’t put much effort into defending because other than having an organized nuke bomb team; there is basically nothing that can actually physically stop large amounts enemies from advancing into the inner of the fort/outpost.

Then there is the whole forward camp problem, the timer for it needs to be increased to somewhere around 30-45mins because you can’t remove players from the area of conflict by defeating them. Players will get killed then be able to run back to the same location within seconds. So, when defending little head way is made.

Joy_Division

Oiling is an art

The key to oil defense is what the OP and others have pointed out: without enough defenders contesting the flags and bottom floor, it's too easy for attackers to quickly move through the oil, thus exposing them to less ticks and hence less losses.

Vs a front door attack, the back flag (the one next to stairs/siege merchant) must be defended heavily enough that will scare off/deter any PuGs and even good ungrouped players from being on that flag. The top only needs a few healers and maybe a few strong ranged defenders. Defenders need to be more aggressive in contesting that back flag. Don't worry about dying there, provided you're not a total PuG and "Leeroy Jenkins" all the way to the front gate, you will get rezzed. I do think it's a good idea to occasionally keep an eye on what's going on at the top to protect oilers, the focus should be on the bottom.

Vs. a side postern attack, it's more about reacting to what the attackers do. They could try and rush up the stairs, they could try to contest the flags, they could try and rush the opposite side stairs. Any penetration needs to be aggressively and immediately contested. If the oilers are doing their job, an aggressive counter-push is a really good place get your kills because they'll have big oil DoTs ticking on them.

Using the right siege tools can make a huge difference and I get a little frustrated seeing higher ranked players put down ballista on the oil lip when a postern is about to burst. Fire trebs on the top floor take up a lot of room and are hard to aim. Vs a side postern siege, I think having a siege weapon on the middle of the stairs and at the top hitting the breech can be a big help. Sometimes I wonder is the silly stone catapult that is supposed to multiply the damage of the other siege hitting a breech (like would it amp the damage of each oil tick?), would be worth it.

badmojo

umagon wrote: »

When defending players can’t hold anyone in place; rapids plus players being able to clip through defending players models makes that impossible. If players could body block the bottom of the stairs, and those smaller doors then controlling enemy movement would be possible. Which would make oil’s more effective because defending players could block stairwell doors around the back flag and hold off players from the front flag even with both walls and the gate down; while outside defenders try clean up reestablish control of the perimeter.

Random people don’t put much effort into defending because other than having an organized nuke bomb team; there is basically nothing that can actually physically stop large amounts enemies from advancing into the inner of the fort/outpost.

Then there is the whole forward camp problem, the timer for it needs to be increased to somewhere around 30-45mins because you can’t remove players from the area of conflict by defeating them. Players will get killed then be able to run back to the same location within seconds. So, when defending little head way is made.

The way it needs to be done is lots of AOE, defile and CC in and outside of the doorway, along with that having ranged DPS sitting around the corners, or up top on the stairs, who are burning down anyone who passes through the doorway. Tanky players take turns CC'ing and "taunting" the enemy just inside the doorway. All while having oils dropped from above, meat bags thrown from behind and even fire ballistas shot from the sides.

The idea is to make it so painful to walk through the doorway that the enemy tends to hold back and try to wear down the defenders. The attackers will try to encourage their side to push in by going in and showing them it can be done, and then squishy players follow and die quickly to all the damage being inflicted on them.

Thing is, if the entire attacking force is cohesive enough to all push in at the same time, there isn't much that can be done to keep order and it turns to complete chaos and if the numbers are roughly even then either side can win.

My point with this thread is that you can't ONLY have the oils dropping from above and DPS standing next to them. Without the meatbag, tanky players, defile, AOE and CC down on the flags it will be a cake walk for even the most unorganized attackers.

Sandman929

I started typing up ideas for how resource ownership could better benefit keep defense, like a third barricade between front and poster flags that required a ram, and therefore an extended battle for attackers in a killzone on the front flag...along with some other ideas for other resources, but then I thought "why am I doing this?".
ZOS has had dozens of ideas thrown at them for Cyrodiil changes, and almost nothing ever comes of them.