Oils arent a defense

Agrippa_Invisus

Sandman929 wrote: »

I started typing up ideas for how resource ownership could better benefit keep defense, like a third barricade between front and poster flags that required a ram, and therefore an extended battle for attackers in a killzone on the front flag...along with some other ideas for other resources, but then I thought "why am I doing this?".
ZOS has had dozens of ideas thrown at them for Cyrodiil changes, and almost nothing ever comes of them.

It doesn't help that Wheeler and Wroebel have been asleep at the wheel for nearly a year or more.

That they can't even take a moment to say 'thanks for the great ideas, but at this time we don't have enough dev time allotted to pvp to make major changes'. Instead it's just silence.

technohic

Getting off the oil once breached should happen but a lot of times going to the flag without an organized group is not going to help much if you think its a ball group coming in through the breach. I usually like to watch to see how they charge in first and decide whether Im going to jump on them on the flag or try to kite around.

geonsocal

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I started typing up ideas for how resource ownership could better benefit keep defense, like a third barricade between front and poster flags that required a ram, and therefore an extended battle for attackers in a killzone on the front flag...along with some other ideas for other resources, but then I thought "why am I doing this?".
ZOS has had dozens of ideas thrown at them for Cyrodiil changes, and almost nothing ever comes of them.

It doesn't help that Wheeler and Wroebel have been asleep at the wheel for nearly a year or more.

That they can't even take a moment to say 'thanks for the great ideas, but at this time we don't have enough dev time allotted to pvp to make major changes'. Instead it's just silence.

ugh, the truth in that statement there is painful

in regards to cyrodiil improvements and zos communications -

umagon

badmojo wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

When defending players can’t hold anyone in place; rapids plus players being able to clip through defending players models makes that impossible. If players could body block the bottom of the stairs, and those smaller doors then controlling enemy movement would be possible. Which would make oil’s more effective because defending players could block stairwell doors around the back flag and hold off players from the front flag even with both walls and the gate down; while outside defenders try clean up reestablish control of the perimeter.

Random people don’t put much effort into defending because other than having an organized nuke bomb team; there is basically nothing that can actually physically stop large amounts enemies from advancing into the inner of the fort/outpost.

Then there is the whole forward camp problem, the timer for it needs to be increased to somewhere around 30-45mins because you can’t remove players from the area of conflict by defeating them. Players will get killed then be able to run back to the same location within seconds. So, when defending little head way is made.

The way it needs to be done is lots of AOE, defile and CC in and outside of the doorway, along with that having ranged DPS sitting around the corners, or up top on the stairs, who are burning down anyone who passes through the doorway. Tanky players take turns CC'ing and "taunting" the enemy just inside the doorway. All while having oils dropped from above, meat bags thrown from behind and even fire ballistas shot from the sides.

The idea is to make it so painful to walk through the doorway that the enemy tends to hold back and try to wear down the defenders. The attackers will try to encourage their side to push in by going in and showing them it can be done, and then squishy players follow and die quickly to all the damage being inflicted on them.

Thing is, if the entire attacking force is cohesive enough to all push in at the same time, there isn't much that can be done to keep order and it turns to complete chaos and if the numbers are roughly even then either side can win.

My point with this thread is that you can't ONLY have the oils dropping from above and DPS standing next to them. Without the meatbag, tanky players, defile, AOE and CC down on the flags it will be a cake walk for even the most unorganized attackers.

The best way to defend the inner fort or an outpost is to remain in control of the courtyard/perimeter. For the forts If the inner walls are still up, patching the outer walls and trying to picking off the attackers tends to lead to better results. With the outer walls up, they cannot zombie resurrect back in and overwhelm the defense. For the outpost controlling the perimeter is key in either scenario getting backed into the interior is not ideal. Hostile players will just keep coming because death has zero penalty.

There isn’t a lot of tank players because there isn’t anything for them to do anymore and 99.999% time they can be ignored. When breaching the inner from an attacker standpoint crowd control is ineffective with rapids and immovable potions. And defile doesn’t matter with purges in conjunction with earthgore.

Xsorus

Again, Oil isn't going to kill a Zergball ever...

Oil backed up by a Zergball or a Massive Zerg will be able to stop a Zergball, But people talking about people manning the upstairs of a keep while others are downstairs are forgetting what is going to happen if those people downstairs aren't a zerg ball, They're going to die in 2 seconds soon as a zergball runs in....

VaranisArano

Xsorus wrote: »

Again, Oil isn't going to kill a Zergball ever...

Oil backed up by a Zergball or a Massive Zerg will be able to stop a Zergball, But people talking about people manning the upstairs of a keep while others are downstairs are forgetting what is going to happen if those people downstairs aren't a zerg ball, They're going to die in 2 seconds soon as a zergball runs in....

If you are standing AFK while the ball group rushes in with ultis, sure. 2 seconds is probably generous.

The goal, the whole point of defending the flags as an active force, is not to be standing AFK but rather actually actively and sensibly defending the flags with a prepared force ready to meet a ball group. No, it doesn't have to be a ball group of your own, but it does require players who know what they are doing, paying attention, and fighting actively - okay fine, that's rarer than any of us would like.

However, when keep defenders have this thought of "If I go down there, I'm just gonna die!" is exactly what leads to the defenders to die when the enemy grabs the flags and rushes up the stairs and kills them on oils. Congrats, they survived an extra what, whole ten, twenty seconds?

Bottom line, if you don't have enough/good enough defenders and the enough/good enough attackers, you'll wipe either way. You get to decide. Do I want to fight on the flags where the ownership of the keep is decided or do I want to stand upstairs waiting for the enemy to hunt me down? Or if you are really that attached to your oil pot, at least oil the inner where the important fight is.

Lieblingsjunge

Oils are a great defence. Enough concentrated siege on the door is enough to wipe a lot of people. But oils alone doesn't do much. You need people defending the flags as well.

But, from what I've seen, the few oilers(which are rarely many) ain't the problem. But the issue is rather the Players that swears to Bow Light attacks for defending from up top. That's where the issue is, not with the oils or oilers itself.

Oils + Fire ballistas + Meatbag(Place it on second flag, with 2 fire ballistas on each postern door), so the moment enemies charge your meatbag catapult, you have 4 ballistas hitting them. [Talking about emp-keeps, not the scroll keeps. In scroll keeps you can do even more of these things o/)

Even a scattershot would be more helpful than bow lightattacks and other wet-noodle attacks from upstairs.

Anrose

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Even a scattershot would be more helpful than bow lightattacks and other wet-noodle attacks from upstairs.

I would love to see more scattershot catapults out there, to be honest. If you have one trained on the door, then the attackers will take 20% more damage from these oils we keep talking about. That may not wipe an entire zergball in one blow, but it will soften them up. Maybe you’re able to take out their rapids spammer. Now suddenly they’ve lost their movement and are vulnerable.

Do not discount the scattershot!

Potenza

Well you cant hit them from downstairs until the door is down - but should have a few ballista's and meatbags waiting for them for when it does come down. Oils actually are very effective when there are enough of them going.

Reverb

QuebraRegra wrote: »

remember the days of ground oils?

It's been years, and I still can't break the association - when I think of ground oils I think of @vortexman11

pcar944

oils are a great way of defending, but it takes way more then just a few oils over front door (where they are most effective) - in certain keeps you can oil flags and prevent enemy from standing on them while your group is coming in

it also helps a lot to have AOE or snare on the breach so the enemy gets "stuck" under oils

what happens a lot of times is none of the above, either there are no oils, or there are no snares

normally, or at least in past, only people who would stay on the top D were people who were on oils, and everyone else had to setup on bottom to keep people who are coming in at bay - what happens now is people just spam their light attacks, bows, snipes, oblivious about whats going to happen in a minute, and the outpost/keep is lost

Serjustin19

Title is right. Oil are indeed more fun.

1. Decoy of trail

2. Decoy of fake numbers (Hey, I can use 10 sieges my myself)

Koensol

This thread is only true for CP campaigns. In no CP, a well oiled team of 6 consistently pouring down oil and using fire ballistas can absolutely destroy a group of much bigger size. This is why I ultimately prefer no CP campaigns if I want to do the keep defense/offense thing. In CP it is just zerg the main gate with enough destro ults and its gg. People are way too tanky in there and siege is useless.

VaranisArano

Koensol wrote: »

This thread is only true for CP campaigns. In no CP, a well oiled team of 6 consistently pouring down oil and using fire ballistas can absolutely destroy a group of much bigger size. This is why I ultimately prefer no CP campaigns if I want to do the keep defense/offense thing. In CP it is just zerg the main gate with enough destro ults and its gg. People are way too tanky in there and siege is useless.

That's not a true description of siege in a CP campaign.

It goes like this:
Siege alone is useless against an organized group with effective healers.
Aggressive siege plus agressive defenders is extremely effective against an organized group.

Siege alone is pretty effective against disorganized groups.
Siege plus agressive players is extremely effective against disorganized groups.

Frankly, I cant tell you how many times Ive seen opposition groups melt in the face of siege and aggressive defenders. I also cant tell you how many times siege alone hasn't saved the objective in the face of an organized group who's healers are on the ball.

Thats why so many of us, especially those,of us with experience in CP campaigns, keep emphasizing aggressive defense on the part of players and not relying on siege alone. Siege isnt useless, but against an organized group with good healers, you need more than just siege to bring them down and defend your objective.

pcar944

Xsorus wrote: »

Again, Oil isn't going to kill a Zergball ever...

Oil backed up by a Zergball or a Massive Zerg will be able to stop a Zergball, But people talking about people manning the upstairs of a keep while others are downstairs are forgetting what is going to happen if those people downstairs aren't a zerg ball, They're going to die in 2 seconds soon as a zergball runs in....

and again, there are times when on NA all factions do this. get 2 raids to take a keep or an outpost. there is not much that a 10 player pug can do vs 40 organized. It happens a lot. It is what it is.

and there are different situations when you should decide yourself what/when to do as a player.

if you have a bunch of people inside the inner/outer, you can effectively spam Warden's Pollen on bottom, or throw caltrops down below.

I've seen tactic from ALL alliances where the "ball" groups run in, with their buffs and ultimates going, as soon as they run out of "steam" the defender ball group that sat in stealth and waited, runs behind them and wipes them. I will gladly be that one player that gets ran over and makes attackers take their guard down because they think there wasn't anyone inside in that situation.

all kinds of tactics. the idea here is that oils are a great way for lower level/cp players, players with lower skill, to be able to do some good things and help with defense as well.

and as it has been mentioned. sometimes its about slowing down the attackers while "help is on the way" - I've seen so many times when people come to take an outpost or front door a keep - and you can kill half their squishy team because they don't have a siege shield, or a good healer/purge. but chances of you killing that group alone are not that great.


oil is also a great deterrent for people to try other sides of the keep after wasting time on front door. I've seen groups come with a ram and no other siege and when the ram gets destroyed by oil they pack up and leave.

use your better judgement. but the strategies for more effective use of oil have been already pointed out.

Datthaw

They need to buff siege in vet pvp. I've been rolling a new toon in kyne, and I always forget how hard the siege hits here. Vet pvp you can just stand in the siege and heal forever through it. You're not gonna do that in kyne, that oil drop hurts. 2 fire ballista hit you at same time you're running for cover hoping a templar is near by. I think if they made it hit 2x as hard in vet it would add alot to keep fights.

Koensol

VaranisArano wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

This thread is only true for CP campaigns. In no CP, a well oiled team of 6 consistently pouring down oil and using fire ballistas can absolutely destroy a group of much bigger size. This is why I ultimately prefer no CP campaigns if I want to do the keep defense/offense thing. In CP it is just zerg the main gate with enough destro ults and its gg. People are way too tanky in there and siege is useless.

That's not a true description of siege in a CP campaign.

It goes like this:
Siege alone is useless against an organized group with effective healers.
Aggressive siege plus agressive defenders is extremely effective against an organized group.

Siege alone is pretty effective against disorganized groups.
Siege plus agressive players is extremely effective against disorganized groups.

Frankly, I cant tell you how many times Ive seen opposition groups melt in the face of siege and aggressive defenders. I also cant tell you how many times siege alone hasn't saved the objective in the face of an organized group who's healers are on the ball.

Thats why so many of us, especially those,of us with experience in CP campaigns, keep emphasizing aggressive defense on the part of players and not relying on siege alone. Siege isnt useless, but against an organized group with good healers, you need more than just siege to bring them down and defend your objective.

Believe what you want. But I know for a fact that siege in CP campaign is an utter joke.

VaranisArano

Koensol wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

This thread is only true for CP campaigns. In no CP, a well oiled team of 6 consistently pouring down oil and using fire ballistas can absolutely destroy a group of much bigger size. This is why I ultimately prefer no CP campaigns if I want to do the keep defense/offense thing. In CP it is just zerg the main gate with enough destro ults and its gg. People are way too tanky in there and siege is useless.

That's not a true description of siege in a CP campaign.

It goes like this:
Siege alone is useless against an organized group with effective healers.
Aggressive siege plus agressive defenders is extremely effective against an organized group.

Siege alone is pretty effective against disorganized groups.
Siege plus agressive players is extremely effective against disorganized groups.

Frankly, I cant tell you how many times Ive seen opposition groups melt in the face of siege and aggressive defenders. I also cant tell you how many times siege alone hasn't saved the objective in the face of an organized group who's healers are on the ball.

Thats why so many of us, especially those,of us with experience in CP campaigns, keep emphasizing aggressive defense on the part of players and not relying on siege alone. Siege isnt useless, but against an organized group with good healers, you need more than just siege to bring them down and defend your objective.

Believe what you want. But I know for a fact that siege in CP campaign is an utter joke.

Uh. Sure.

I can accept that your personal experience is different than my personal experience and that our definition of "utter joke" is different.

Since I think that's where we differ. My experience is that determined siege is not a joke for the healers who have to heal through it, but looks like a joke to the attackers going "why aren't they dying!" who can't see how hard the healers are working.

But you do you, man.

Master_Kas

I wish the majority of AD EU could learn this. Don't know how many times I've yelled that the flags are defensles and they will just run through the oils who hit outside the mg

Iskras

We can make french fries ...

xxthir13enxx

I’d like to point out that with the upcoming update the catapults will become extremely effective in defence. Coordinating use of fiery oil, oil catapult and meatbag.... I Love The Smell Of Napalm In The Morning....

https://youtu.be/nx5N-4JvVyk

Biro123

Its pretty straight forward. The key is communication.

Before the door of has breached, there isn't any point having people stood on the flags doing nothing. They need to be up to with siege/range.

When its about to breach, to want most of them down on the flags.

But while up top, you can't see the state of the door, so in most instances all that's needed is one guy on the flag yelling the door % . Most people kind of already know to get down when its around 20%

Then, if you can hold them, the tricky part (especially without organised groups) is figuring out when to push...

Never gonna successfully defend unless you can push out and wipe the attackers.

HowlKimchi

Just /yell repeatedly for them to prep ground floor defenses when the door is around 20%, it usually works in my experience.

pcar944

HaruyukiHana wrote: »

Just /yell repeatedly for them to prep ground floor defenses when the door is around 20%, it usually works in my experience.

doesn't matter what you do in PC vivec, NA

its fun to watch DC push into EP or AD owned keeps that are defended with all kinds of ballistas pointing at the breach

while DC normally just rolls out red carpet for the attackers

Vencenzo

QuebraRegra wrote: »

remember the days of ground oils?

We remembers..
They took our precious away..