Gryphons on Summerset - Your Thoughts?

VaranisArano

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

NPC riding flying mounts... Does that open the door for flying mounts in the Crown Store?

What I'd like to know is, where have these guys been during the Alliance War? Even if they did nothing but scout, flying scouts would be incredibly useful. And if they could rain down fireballs or drop sacks of caltrops, even better!

I would like to see, but am not hopeful for, some sort of explanation. Maybe the Gryphons evaporate into mist when exposed to the mainland. Something.

In the early days of the Three Banners War, the Gryphon Scouts tried to join in the war effort, but snipers from DC and EP soon drove them from the skies.

Gryphon Scouts on PC tried in vain to get access to Miats so they too could dodge Snipes, but they were banned when Ad learned that the Pact was petitioning ZOS for dragons. A truce was declared and an agreement worked out that no flying creatures should be added to the Alliance War that could leap higher than a Dragonknight. Then the skies over Cyrodiil grew dark with a cloud of warden-summoned-cliffracers and no gryphon will go near the place anymore.

Ajaxandriel

Interestingly, the gryphon riders appear to be named "the Welkynar"

IIRC the Welkynd (stones) are the Children of the Sky in ayleidoon.
Maybe -kyn- is the "sky" word (would explain Kyne / Kynareth) so Welkynar meaning something like Children of the Sky Justiciars/Enforcers

(edit: in fact - thanks to word "hulkynd" now - we know "kyn" is "child" so "wel" is "sky" but that doesn't change the translation x) )

That makes sense for sky patrol.
Even an ayleid legacy maybe...that would be awesome for my own character background hehe

lordrichter wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

NPC riding flying mounts... Does that open the door for flying mounts in the Crown Store?

What I'd like to know is, where have these guys been during the Alliance War? Even if they did nothing but scout, flying scouts would be incredibly useful. And if they could rain down fireballs or drop sacks of caltrops, even better!

I would like to see, but am not hopeful for, some sort of explanation. Maybe the Gryphons evaporate into mist when exposed to the mainland. Something.

Good point. I guess they are neutral in this conflict. Likely does not sit well with others.

I still have hope that some forces on Summerset - like the psijic themselves - remained neutral and somehow..."independent" from the Dominion adventure. Independent kingdoms.... Like Rilis XIII (who declared himself neutral between Ayrenn and the Veiled Queen)

I'm more afraid about how the story would tell the politics on Summerset than about the underwhelming architecture

Enodoc

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

The ingredient is just a name, its in several
other locations ingame.

It's never appeared in any game since Daggerfall though; therefore there's a clear precedent for gryphons only being in the Iliac Bay area. If they were native to Summerset, then you'd just as likely find feathers all over the continent if you find them in the Iliac. But they don't appear in Vvardenfell, Cyrodiil, or Skyrim, suggesting their prevalence in the Bay is based on them being native to that area.

Rohamad_Ali

Griffon hotwings , Deep fried Griffon , Broiled Griffon , Fricasea of Griffon , Griffon Pot Pie , Stewed Griffon , Griffon Jumbalia ... Sweat N Sour Griffon .

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Enodoc wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

The ingredient is just a name, its in several
other locations ingame.

It's never appeared in any game since Daggerfall though; therefore there's a clear precedent for gryphons only being in the Iliac Bay area. If they were native to Summerset, then you'd just as likely find feathers all over the continent if you find them in the Iliac. But they don't appear in Vvardenfell, Cyrodiil, or Skyrim, suggesting their prevalence in the Bay is based on them being native to that area.

The Bretons seem to rely heavily on trade though, and have a large fleet compared to some of the other regions. So obtaining gryphon feathers via trade with the Isles might be more reliable for them than, say Morrowind trying to do the same.

ManwithBeard9

As Lawrence Schick explained before, none of this "new lore" passes without the graces of the masters at Bethesda. I'm sure there will be more than enough background in game and on ESO Live to explain the details.

Elsonso

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

As Lawrence Schick explained before, none of this "new lore" passes without the graces of the masters at Bethesda. I'm sure there will be more than enough background in game and on ESO Live to explain the details.

Actually, that may have been the case when things started out, but my impression from later comments is that this does not happen as much as people might think.

ManwithBeard9

lordrichter wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

As Lawrence Schick explained before, none of this "new lore" passes without the graces of the masters at Bethesda. I'm sure there will be more than enough background in game and on ESO Live to explain the details.

Actually, that may have been the case when things started out, but my impression from later comments is that this does not happen as much as people might think.

Yes and no? What Lawrence said was when they do bigger lore things, brand new lore, or costumes or mounts and what not it gets passed through Bethesda. Anything thats already established can pretty much just be added.

Number_51

Enodoc wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

The ingredient is just a name, its in several
other locations ingame.

It's never appeared in any game since Daggerfall though; therefore there's a clear precedent for gryphons only being in the Iliac Bay area. If they were native to Summerset, then you'd just as likely find feathers all over the continent if you find them in the Iliac. But they don't appear in Vvardenfell, Cyrodiil, or Skyrim, suggesting their prevalence in the Bay is based on them being native to that area.

Imported by Direnni?

psychotrip

SirAxen wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

The new Summerset announcement mentions griffins gryphons as a new creature that will be encountered during the chapter. The only previous references to gryphons that I can find are as alchemy ingredients in Daggerfall (Gryphon's Feathers), and a bunch of taverns with "Griffin" in the name in Arena.

Based on the Daggerfall ingredient, one could have assumed that gryphons were native to High Rock, rather than Summerset, and the symbology of a gryphon as a hybrid also fits better with the Breton culture (Altmer have eagles, Nedes would have lions, so Bretons symbolically could have eagles+lions=gryphons). Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on why gryphons have appeared on Summerset, when there is a clear precedent in Altmeri culture of the symbolism of the eagle (alone), and to a deeper extent, the "Sun Birds"?

I'm not even sure sun birds are a thing anymore, dude. Nothing in Summerset looked creative or interesting to me. It's a shame because they used to be my favorite race.

But to answer your question, yes everything you said would have made more sense than what we got. Zenimax just thought "high fantasy" when they designed Summerset, so they threw gryphons in. It's that simple.

Source?

Source on what, exactly?

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

I like the idea of gryphons on Summerset rather than anywhere else. Gryphons are mystical creatures and Summerset is a mystical place. I think gryphons roosting in Summerset is much more fitting than some place like High Rock. While High Rock is a human High Fantasy setting. For some reason the idea of humans in a high fantasy setting having their own myths and legends of such mystical creatures, that actually exist in a much more fantasical setting, is interesting to me.

As for eagles and sunbirds. We havent seen everything of this new zone or all of the creatures. Im hoping they did infact add these two types of birds and didnt over look it. But its possible they did. Its also possible they thought gryphons would bring so much more hype for casual players without knowledge of Summerset lore. A sunbird would definitely make lorebeards hype, but it might not grab the kind of attention a gryphon does for the casual player.

Why would a gryphon (which is seen in every generic fantasy universe) excite casuals more than a magical, biomechanical bird creature?

To be fair, we don’t actually know what sunbirds look like, but they’re supposed to be the altmer equivalent of imperial mothships, which judging by old concept art looked like giant biomechanical moths that could fly up to Oblivion.

Either way though, we live in a world where the most popular MMO has talking cows and space goats. I think “casuals” enjoy weird fantasy stuff as much as the hardcore ES fans.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Since the announcement video was released, I have been wanting to try and find in lore the addition of Gryphons to the new chapter. And just FYI YES, Zeni does collaborate with Bethesda on new areas of lore, geography, etc.)....

As @Enodoc and others have stated, the only reference to "Gryphons" is a feather in TES2:Daggerfall.
I was particularly interested in Rich's comment about Cloudrest and the "Welkynar Gryphon Knights and their Aerie."
So off to the Imperial Library I go!!!

What I found, or didn't find, is any reference to Welkynar Gryphon Knights, or of Gryphons in any form or shape, in any of the books or NPC dialog from Arena to Skyrim. (Except that one feather in TES2).

I researched "Sun Bird's" as I was thinking maybe that was what they were referred to as.
But, "Sun Birds" are part of Micheal Kirkbrides obscure text's and not Canon.

So, PLEASE! I summon you!! O'Great and Wise One!
@ZOS_Lawrence_Schick , please enlighten us humble Lore Warriors..How was the decision made to include these and how do they link into our lore, as they are previously unknown.
Perhaps Julian LeFay might know????

WhiteCoatSyndrome

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

I researched "Sun Bird's" as I was thinking maybe that was what they were referred to as.
But, "Sun Birds" are part of Micheal Kirkbrides obscure text's and not Canon.

@wenchmore420b14_ESO That's not quite true; they get a brief mention in the Pocket Guide:

Visits to Aetherius occur even less frequently than to Oblivion, for the void is a long expanse and only the stars offer portal for aetherial travel, or the judicious use of magic. The expeditions of the Reman Dynasty and the Sun Birds of Alinor are the most famous attempts in our histories, and it is a cosmic irony that both of them were eventually dissolved for the same reason: the untenable expenditures required to reach magic by magicka. Their only legacy is the Royal Imperial Mananauts of the Elder Council and the great Orrery at Firsthold, whose spheres are made up of genuine celestial mineral gathered by travelers during the Merethic Era.

I have a nasty suspicion that they're going to go and make "Sun Bird" a title for the mer who went into space (rather like 'astronaut') not the way they got there. I HOPE I'm wrong and they do something more interesting with it, but I'm not optimistic.

Faulgor

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

I researched "Sun Bird's" as I was thinking maybe that was what they were referred to as.
But, "Sun Birds" are part of Micheal Kirkbrides obscure text's and not Canon.

@wenchmore420b14_ESO That's not quite true; they get a brief mention in the Pocket Guide:

Visits to Aetherius occur even less frequently than to Oblivion, for the void is a long expanse and only the stars offer portal for aetherial travel, or the judicious use of magic. The expeditions of the Reman Dynasty and the Sun Birds of Alinor are the most famous attempts in our histories, and it is a cosmic irony that both of them were eventually dissolved for the same reason: the untenable expenditures required to reach magic by magicka. Their only legacy is the Royal Imperial Mananauts of the Elder Council and the great Orrery at Firsthold, whose spheres are made up of genuine celestial mineral gathered by travelers during the Merethic Era.

I have a nasty suspicion that they're going to go and make "Sun Bird" a title for the mer who went into space (rather like 'astronaut') not the way they got there. I HOPE I'm wrong and they do something more interesting with it, but I'm not optimistic.

Considering they didn't bother with the "great Orrery at Firsthold" either, I'm not holding my breath.
Unless it was only constructed between now and the time the PGE was written, and this gets somehow adressed in a quest ...

psychotrip

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

I like the idea of gryphons on Summerset rather than anywhere else. Gryphons are mystical creatures and Summerset is a mystical place. I think gryphons roosting in Summerset is much more fitting than some place like High Rock. While High Rock is a human High Fantasy setting. For some reason the idea of humans in a high fantasy setting having their own myths and legends of such mystical creatures, that actually exist in a much more fantasical setting, is interesting to me.

As for eagles and sunbirds. We havent seen everything of this new zone or all of the creatures. Im hoping they did infact add these two types of birds and didnt over look it. But its possible they did. Its also possible they thought gryphons would bring so much more hype for casual players without knowledge of Summerset lore. A sunbird would definitely make lorebeards hype, but it might not grab the kind of attention a gryphon does for the casual player.

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Since the announcement video was released, I have been wanting to try and find in lore the addition of Gryphons to the new chapter. And just FYI YES, Zeni does collaborate with Bethesda on new areas of lore, geography, etc.)....

As @Enodoc and others have stated, the only reference to "Gryphons" is a feather in TES2:Daggerfall.
I was particularly interested in Rich's comment about Cloudrest and the "Welkynar Gryphon Knights and their Aerie."
So off to the Imperial Library I go!!!

What I found, or didn't find, is any reference to Welkynar Gryphon Knights, or of Gryphons in any form or shape, in any of the books or NPC dialog from Arena to Skyrim. (Except that one feather in TES2).

I researched "Sun Bird's" as I was thinking maybe that was what they were referred to as.
But, "Sun Birds" are part of Micheal Kirkbrides obscure text's and not Canon.

So, PLEASE! I summon you!! O'Great and Wise One!
@ZOS_Lawrence_Schick , please enlighten us humble Lore Warriors..How was the decision made to include these and how do they link into our lore, as they are previously unknown.
Perhaps Julian LeFay might know????

Sun Birds were introduced after Kirkbride left, so no. They were included in the “lore book” that came with Oblivion. Unless we’re saying even Oblivion’s lore is a “transcription error”. Then we may as well just accept that every ES game contradicts the last one.

Like someone else said, Firsthold is supposed to have a great orrery, so they’re already off to a poor start.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Faulgor wrote: »

Considering they didn't bother with the "great Orrery at Firsthold" either, I'm not holding my breath.
Unless it was only constructed between now and the time the PGE was written, and this gets somehow adressed in a quest ...

They hand-waved that during an interview:

Nate: This is an uncharacteristically short question. We've enjoyed the quests involving, uh, divination by the Orrery at, uh, Elder Root, but is the Great Orrery at Firsthold, wrought of celestial material retrieved by the Sunbirds of Alinor, still standing?

Phrastus: As it happens, I can answer this question, as a generation ago, the matter was a subject of scandal among scholars all across Tamriel. Around the year 235, Kinlord Rilis the Twelfth, whom I gather was a rather unstable character, asked the [Varmaster] of the Orrery of Firsthold a question about his future greatness. And when the [Varmaster] replied rather tartly that the Orrery was not a device that rendered astrological prediction, Rilis was vexed. He dismissed the [Varmaster] forthwith, and had the entire Great Orrery disassembled. It was crated up carefully, and is currently stored, I believe, in the vaults beneath Firsthold Palace.

So it's been built but we don't get to see it.

psychotrip

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Considering they didn't bother with the "great Orrery at Firsthold" either, I'm not holding my breath.
Unless it was only constructed between now and the time the PGE was written, and this gets somehow adressed in a quest ...

They hand-waved that during an interview:

Nate: This is an uncharacteristically short question. We've enjoyed the quests involving, uh, divination by the Orrery at, uh, Elder Root, but is the Great Orrery at Firsthold, wrought of celestial material retrieved by the Sunbirds of Alinor, still standing?

Phrastus: As it happens, I can answer this question, as a generation ago, the matter was a subject of scandal among scholars all across Tamriel. Around the year 235, Kinlord Rilis the Twelfth, whom I gather was a rather unstable character, asked the [Varmaster] of the Orrery of Firsthold a question about his future greatness. And when the [Varmaster] replied rather tartly that the Orrery was not a device that rendered astrological prediction, Rilis was vexed. He dismissed the [Varmaster] forthwith, and had the entire Great Orrery disassembled. It was crated up carefully, and is currently stored, I believe, in the vaults beneath Firsthold Palace.

So it's been built but we don't get to see it.

This reads like a parody of ZOS / Bethesda retcons.