Can we talk about the lore behind the Warden....?

Savantus

Now, i'll give you a brief background in that I play the Elder Scrolls for the story and the world, so as long as it exists in the canon I can cope with it, if we can be assassins then we can be necromancers and all that....as long as its "supposed" to be there then its fine and dandy, the theme of the elder scrolls had always been that you have everything put in front of you and then you justify how it works, want the grandmaster of the thieves guild who knows one spell to also be the archmage? well I think its stupid (praise morrowind for its sensible restrictions) but you could do it...at least your character was lore friendly as all the spells, armour, weapons and guilds were lore friendly and properly implemented.

When it was first announced I was a tad skeptical because its not really a thing that has ever been in the Elder Scrolls, I mean nature stuff is pretty much reserved for obscure Argonian Hist(y) stuff that has never really been explained and the bosmer who have got a bit more behind them what with their Green Pact/Wild Hunt/Hircine/Spinner bits and pieces...

It was when I actually looked at the "lore background" and the actual skill trees that I was left thinking "WTF is this...." Now I get it, if you love druidy stuff then thats fine I'm not here to tell you that it sucks and no one should ever play it, but in terms of its lore based intergration I feel like its a complete trainwreck. Now it has been stated (and as far as I am aware this is the ONLY source of information that we have on Warden's) that they are basically (not) spinners who are specifically asociated with Y'iffre but anyone can totally be one and not have anything to do with the Green Pact and Y'iffre you just have to really like plants and animals. I have obviously paraphrased there somewhat.... but you get the gist, they have literally taken the concept of a druid and gone "WE NEED A NATURE PERSON THING IN ESO!" then realised that there is no basis for it in the Elder Scrolls world so just mashed up the Spinners into a super generic " U WANDER THE FORESTY PLACES PROTECTING NATURE AND STUFF COZ Y'IFFRE" If you can honestly tell me about how the Warden is not just a knock-off spinner then please correct me, but i can't find any material justifying why any "mer" other than the Bos, or anyone else other than maybe Argonian's would be serving Y'iffre and doing nature stuff... I mean even the lore page says that it doesn't know why they exist and THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE JUSTIFYING IT!

Then we have the actual skill trees;

Green Balance - nature/plant stuff - its fine but once again emphasies the Green which is specific to wood elves and makes me struggle to justify on anyone else

Animal Companions - Now this would be fine were it not that they're all Morrowind based beasts, so as soon as you go to say; the Khajiti homelands I would be seriously impressed to know how you "command" a cliff racer which doesn't appear anywhere but morrowind, its the same for fetcherflies, netch and the shalk (shalk are a little less ridiculous but a netch?! seriously?!) I know "its a game/its just a skill/ whatever" but for people like me who play for the world and lore, its pretty sloppy and immersion breaking.... Potentially there is an arguement that they're made using conjuration magic and not real animals but there is then the arguement of where the duck these things are summoned from, conjuration has two aspects, daedric and necromantic, either you're pulling stuff out of oblivion (atronachs and daedra) or using the soul cairn or existing materials for necromancy, as far as I am aware there is no other option in mainstream magic. Sure we have the "ancestor/spirit" side of things but that is clearly a kind of undeath/necromancy even if everyone pretends it isn't. I would love to know where you summon your netch from if its conjuration magic...

Winter's Embrace - I mean it just strikes me as odd that you'd have a class focused specifically on "the Green" to use frost magic, there is no real reason why frost magic would be their focus as opposed to really hammering that pet/nature focus, it seems like the only reason they have frost as a tree is because we've all moaned about how we want a frost mage, nature isn't generally good with cold so it just strikes me as a bit silly, as you wander alone in the forest defeating ne'er do wells intent on harming your precious forest by using magic that will freeze patches of the forest which you're meant to be protecting..... sure maybe its magical ice that only hurts naughty people, but thats a cheap excuse.

I mean thats my rant over I guess but I just really need someone to explain to me how its not just a complete mess in its implementation, It just feels like rather than the new class being relevant to the expansion or indeed just generally something well implemented in the lore and thus "easy" to create, like a necromancer or illusionist (just two examples, there will be others, your favourite acrobat from morrowind is not forgotten.) they felt the need to shoehorn in something that was never really asked for and doesn't even appear to really know what it is... (apologies if you belong to the sub community of die hards wanting to play as a Spinner.) I mean where is the Morag Tong skill line? the Telvanni Skill line? Redoran or Hlaalu? Clockwork? I don't know, but the only way that the Warden is remotely related to the expansion is that it seems to summon all of its animal companions from the beasts of morrowind (other than the bear which i'm sure is found basically everywhere)
I would have much rather had either a new class that was implemented in a way that made it lore friendly or just 1+ world skill lines that are related to the area that the expansion is focused on...

Please let me know what you think? I mean are you cool with it? do you share any of my views? do you disagree whole heartedly? I'm curious to know what other people think.

Link to the article : https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/26017

TL;DR:
Wardens make no sense in the game, I don't understand why they didn't pick something actually lore friendly as a new class. (correct me if you know better though, preferably without being a snide so and so.)

DocFrost72

http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Y'ffre

Note, the altmer and breton are well known to worship him/her as well (knew about the bretons, didn't know about the altmer. I learned something today!).

To me, this seems no different than worshipers of the eight being templars. This specifically would make less sense with certain races (tribunal worshiping dunmer, argonians being more reverent to the hist etc). Course, the one thing you said I totally and wholeheartedly agree on is the vvardenfell themed animals. Hopefully in the future zos sells "combat pet skins" so the racer can be a hawk, the shalk can be beetles, and the netch can be a torchbug (all just super simple examples).

As for the ice, I saw it as the defensive magic of ESO. While alteration has typically been associated with defensive magic such as the skin morphing abilities present in single player titles, ESO opted to make the frost staff a defensive-ish elemental type. It also kind of makes sense- ever hit really thick frost with a stick before? It'll hurt your hand. Not sure how strong the bond is to wardens as a theme admittedly, but at least it makes admittedly modicum of sense.

Does this help explain it better?

Savantus

A tad, I still think that the "Warden" itself is a bit of a copout in terms of its overall concept, but at least it isn't quite as disgusting as I originally thought, I can't see the animal thing changing ever, its a shame because having the race you pick determine the "skin" of the animals would have made much more sense thematically, or even better, be dependant upon the area that you're in but I doubt it will ever change, I mean the frost thing is stil a bit of a stretch I think its just a "well we've got a fire one, a lightning one but we still need a frost one....." rather than it being thematically linked, since the dragonknight would (if it weren't for it being fire focused) be equally as appropriate to have the ice magic.

I mean there is an arguement that with fire/volcanos being linked to fertility and growth then they could have gone with a pyromancer vibe if it weren't already taken by the dragonknight

QuebraRegra

what I don't get are the Argonians and Bosmer... I mean with the Argonians you have the Hist... how are the Bosmer's no allied with that?

Savantus

Well the relationship between Argonians and the hist is a strange one, its been described as a symbiotic relationship but I'm not sure what the terms are, plus they have a pseudo-atheistic society where they don't have Gods that they worship but rather have a religious culture similar to zen without the buddhism attached, so the hist are unique to the argonians as they are the only one's that have the special relationship with them, and are sort of attached to them/worship them, with each argonian tribe/group being specifically attached to "their Hist" so while the Hist as a general are important to all argonians, a specific argonian will have a specific hist that they will be attached to though I imagine that bosmer would get along quite happily with the argonians were it not for blackmarsh being basically insta-death for anyone else to enter and at at the very least a MASSIVE pain in the arse due to it being a half aquatic marshland making travel nigh impossible for non-argonians.

I mean hists being trees means that there is leeway for argonians to have an attachment to nature and therefore be more inclined towards the Warden from a lore perspective, but those damn animal summons are just not right unless they change it (the best way would be my second sugestion)

SirAndy

Savantus wrote: »

I mean even the lore page says that it doesn't know why they exist and THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE JUSTIFYING IT!

Pretty simple:

Long ago a pet Sorc got really drunk in a tavern near the Red Mountain and he tried to climb the volcano but slipped and fell down the side of the mountain.
On his way down, he hit his head so many times that by the time he arrived at the bottom, he could not remember his own name.
He tried using his magick but all his spells failed and all he could manage to conjure were animals of the surrounding land.

The patrons at the inn took pity on him and offered him a job to use his new found magick to ward them against the beast and bandits in the region.

In time, the Sorc became known as the Warden and the area around the tavern became known as Vvardenfell ...

RaddlemanNumber7

IMO there is no lore worth mentioning. The Warden class is an entirely meta-mechanical construct. An addition to the combat system and nothing more. They just appear out of nowhere. They have no story. They have never been mentioned previously in the lore. They do not even fit into any of the stories we have already been given.

This doesn't stop them being fun to play.

SirAndy

SirAndy wrote: »

Long ago a pet Sorc got really drunk in a tavern near the Red Mountain and he tried to climb the volcano but slipped and fell down the side of the mountain.
On his way down, he hit his head so many times that by the time he arrived at the bottom, he could not remember his own name.
He tried using his magick but all his spells failed and all he could manage to conjure were animals of the surrounding land.
The patrons at the inn took pity on him and offered him a job to use his new found magick to ward them against the beast and bandits in the region.
In time, the Sorc became known as the Warden and the area around the tavern became known as Vvardenfell ...

There once was a mighty Sorc of Pet, who got really drunk at the Mountain of Red.
He climbed the volcano to the top but fell, on the way down hit his head and lost his spell.
His magick now conjures animals abound, the locals decided to keep him around.
They named him the Warden and right where he fell, they drink in his honor and call the land Vvardenfell.


Ok, i think i need to stop drinking now ...

Diabolus1989

I've never really had a problem with the Wardens.

Green Balance: Y'ffre is a deity that is central to Bosmeri culture and life, but it's not limited to them. Tamriel can be quite multicultural in certain places, especially with religion. You've got Orcs who worship Azura instead of Mauloch, Dunmer who follow the Divines instead of the Tribunal/Good Daedra. You've even got the Beldama Wyrd who worship Jephre, which is just another name for Y'frre.

Animal Companions: I agree that the Vvardenfell-themed-animals-only rule is disappointing. However, maybe it's not actually a branch of conjuration. Maybe it's a trans-location spell, summoning these creatures from somewhere else on Tamriel (only Vvardenfell though obviously ). In ES III: Morrowind, there were spells such as the Intervention spells and Mark/Recall which allowed instantaneous teleportation - all under the branch of mysticism, the least understood of the schools of magic, outside of the Psijic Order. So maybe it's a type of mysticism spell??

Winter's Embrace: I am under the impression that frost magic was picked to complete the fire/lightning/frost trinity. Maybe something like disease or poison magic would've fitted better with the nature theme. (But it's not as bad as that Elf Keeper from Dragon Age: Awakening - nature magic and FIRE magic - though you did get to respec her )

Anyway, the lore is always shifting and changing with each release of a name game/DLC, and the past 'lore excuses' haven't exactly been the best either (looking at the Levitation Act here).

djyrb

Well thought out post, and the lore nerd in me often asks questions of this nature when it comes to the class concepts, since they are an important part of your characters.

I don't have too much of an issue with the way the class is built except, as you and other have mentioned, the aesthetics of the Animal Companions line. I really wish the developers took a more universal approach rather than so Morrowind specific, especially considering the druid-esque theme of the class, that just doesn't feel Dunmeri to me at all.

QuebraRegra

I'm still struggling daily with the STAM SORC concept..

Obviously the WARDEN is a RANGER/DRUID of AD&D fame

catalyst10e

I hear ya, and for the most part agree with you OP. I will say just a couple minor things for discussion sake.

Green Balance - technically theres all sorts of nature based magic being mentioned in the lore not JUST by bosmer, Wyrwood sisters come to mind, Hags i think do? some Shaman do as well.

Animal Companions: Now this is where you made probably my favorite point. It really limits it to morrowind specific creatures. which in my opinion kinda pigeonholes them to being Morrowind specific. I will say tho, we all know mages can summon more than just 3 or 4 different kinds of daedra... the game is just rather limiting in this regard.

Winter's Embrace: Now I will say Wardens were apart of the game long before they were released. So it isnt fair to say its because people complained. Wardens were just removed and reworked. I will say tho, compared to the other elements, nature does it's best WITH cold. If you summon trees and such, you dont want to also use a fireball or a bolt of lightning and start a fire... Winter being a natural occurrence and a universal constant, frost magic has an argument of being rather "natural" compared to say fire. Sticking with the Morrowind theme of Animal companions, I'd personally want ice magic in a place with lava pools, even if its just to keep cool... similar to how in The Doors of Oblivion Morian mentions needing to cofure flame to keep warm in coldharbor. Plus, ice eventually melts into water which all plants need.

crashen17b14_ESO

My 'breton' mag-warden tank is a reach mage. Leeching Vines? Ice magic? A giant pissed off bear? Yeah. Sounds like reach magic to me.

jlmurra2

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

My 'breton' mag-warden tank is a reach mage. Leeching Vines? Ice magic? A giant pissed off bear? Yeah. Sounds like reach magic to me.

I build my two Wardens by the theme, and the personality I imagine them to have. I find I don't enjoy playing unless I know who my characters are.

The first is a Y'ffre worshipping magicka Altmer with which I use most Warden skills except the Morrowind specific creatures as I don't feel they fit the character.

The second is a Nord tank, who I imagine as a rugged northern warden. He uses the bear ultimate, and most the classes skills, but not the Morrowind specific creatures for the same reason as the Altmer.

The only exception I make is for the netches. They are just too useful to pass up. I imagine they visited Morrowind sometime in the past, and it followed them home.

Carbonised

I actually made a topic about this not too long ago.

And I wholeheartedly agree, though I come at it from another angle, prefering they had changed the bear into something more vvardenfell-esque, as well as the hawk animation, since I exclusively play Dunmer characters, of course.

No matter how you look at it, the Warden is a Frankenstein type of class, with bits of everything tacked on here and there.
It's like the devs sat down and thought "Hey, we need this forest type of class, let's call it Warden *poof, green balance was born*. But it's a part of the Morrowind Chapter, it needs to have a Morrowind feel *poof, animal summoning was born*. Oh, and people have been asking for ice magic for along time now, let's give them that too *poof, winter's embrace was born*".

From a lore perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever. As a Dunmer Warden, I do love being able to see shalk and fetcherflies and netches and cliff striders, though of course I can easily see why it doesn't appeal to anyone who's not a Dunmer. Also, ice magic doesn't really fit a Dunmer Warden either, they're pyromaniacs and live on a volcano. Same goes for the forest magic skill line. The fungi are great, but all the trees and vines and flowers don't really carry much of a Dunmer vibe either.

Anywho, the devs made a large mistake, at least when coming at this from a lore perspective, and I really hope they will be more considerate if/when they add more classes in the future. Unfortunately, Wrobel and his gang have zero respect for class individuality and class identity. That was plain as day when they turned stamDKs from Dragonknights to poison frogs overnight. If I had been playing a stam spec instead of mag, that would have made me quit the game the same day.
My Dunmer MagDK is based all around fire, I have bought mounts, pets and costumes and decorated homes to fit with that theme, and it's nothing you just change around on a friggin plate just to make it match your stupid CP constellation stars.

dodgehopper_ESO

I can look at Warden and see a Kyne / Kynareth theme for the Nords as well. Think about the quests with the magical trees in Skyrim.

Edit: I felt I should come back and add to this. I do feel that the Warden theme feels most Nord/Dunmer-like actually. The bear, frost line, the wings, lotus all feel more Nordlike to me particularly with respect to Kyne worshippers. Consider that the two main divines of the Nord pantheon are Kyne and Shor and a bit of Akatosh which I'm not so sure is different than Shor. Kyne is represented by a Hawk, wind, rain, snow and other natural things to the Nords. The part where it gets weird with the Warden class is that you've got netches, shalks and fetcherflies. Would I rather have a Nord-inspired skin to go with it? Absolutely. Do I think the class is horrible for the theme? Absolutely not. I play a Nord Warden whose theme is centered around the concept that he came from Solstheim. If you have ever played Skyrim or Morrowind I think this would make plenty of sense to you. (As you've also mentioned the nature theme of the Argonians, I'd like to mention that my other Warden is an Argonian... so there you are.). Both of these characters were built for theme and I must say they both play fine. I'm fairly certain for the Argonian it is best in slot as a Tank Warden and the Nord is just an okay Stamina build and decent Tank potentially. I didn't build these characters for perfect numbers and I'm happy that they do well enough.

On the matter of theme a lot of the abilities have a Vvardenfell (Dunmer) flair. I agree with this and it is my hope that they'll eventually offer skins to let us fit more themes. (Maybe spellcrafting can do this).

dodgehopper_ESO

Carbonised wrote: »

I actually made a topic about this not too long ago.

And I wholeheartedly agree, though I come at it from another angle, prefering they had changed the bear into something more vvardenfell-esque, as well as the hawk animation, since I exclusively play Dunmer characters, of course.

No matter how you look at it, the Warden is a Frankenstein type of class, with bits of everything tacked on here and there.
It's like the devs sat down and thought "Hey, we need this forest type of class, let's call it Warden *poof, green balance was born*. But it's a part of the Morrowind Chapter, it needs to have a Morrowind feel *poof, animal summoning was born*. Oh, and people have been asking for ice magic for along time now, let's give them that too *poof, winter's embrace was born*".

From a lore perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever. As a Dunmer Warden, I do love being able to see shalk and fetcherflies and netches and cliff striders, though of course I can easily see why it doesn't appeal to anyone who's not a Dunmer. Also, ice magic doesn't really fit a Dunmer Warden either, they're pyromaniacs and live on a volcano. Same goes for the forest magic skill line. The fungi are great, but all the trees and vines and flowers don't really carry much of a Dunmer vibe either.

Anywho, the devs made a large mistake, at least when coming at this from a lore perspective, and I really hope they will be more considerate if/when they add more classes in the future. Unfortunately, Wrobel and his gang have zero respect for class individuality and class identity. That was plain as day when they turned stamDKs from Dragonknights to poison frogs overnight. If I had been playing a stam spec instead of mag, that would have made me quit the game the same day.
My Dunmer MagDK is based all around fire, I have bought mounts, pets and costumes and decorated homes to fit with that theme, and it's nothing you just change around on a friggin plate just to make it match your stupid CP constellation stars.

@carbonized - I think you are dead wrong (even though you are kind of right). Consider for a moment that if you are a mage inclined to get in fights in Morrowind you are liable to end up fighting other combatants who are highly resistant to fire. In that world does it make sense to wield fire or to wield one of the other elements? In the Morrowind game (TES:3) I actually found Cyromancers to be the most common enemies followed by Lightning wizards. I believe this was for this very reason and bravo to the developers for thinking of it. The Mushroom theme has a Telvanni flavor. I'm actually quite fine with Dunmer Wardens although a Hunger probably would make more sense for them instead of a Bear.

Carbonised

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I actually made a topic about this not too long ago.

And I wholeheartedly agree, though I come at it from another angle, prefering they had changed the bear into something more vvardenfell-esque, as well as the hawk animation, since I exclusively play Dunmer characters, of course.

No matter how you look at it, the Warden is a Frankenstein type of class, with bits of everything tacked on here and there.
It's like the devs sat down and thought "Hey, we need this forest type of class, let's call it Warden *poof, green balance was born*. But it's a part of the Morrowind Chapter, it needs to have a Morrowind feel *poof, animal summoning was born*. Oh, and people have been asking for ice magic for along time now, let's give them that too *poof, winter's embrace was born*".

From a lore perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever. As a Dunmer Warden, I do love being able to see shalk and fetcherflies and netches and cliff striders, though of course I can easily see why it doesn't appeal to anyone who's not a Dunmer. Also, ice magic doesn't really fit a Dunmer Warden either, they're pyromaniacs and live on a volcano. Same goes for the forest magic skill line. The fungi are great, but all the trees and vines and flowers don't really carry much of a Dunmer vibe either.

Anywho, the devs made a large mistake, at least when coming at this from a lore perspective, and I really hope they will be more considerate if/when they add more classes in the future. Unfortunately, Wrobel and his gang have zero respect for class individuality and class identity. That was plain as day when they turned stamDKs from Dragonknights to poison frogs overnight. If I had been playing a stam spec instead of mag, that would have made me quit the game the same day.
My Dunmer MagDK is based all around fire, I have bought mounts, pets and costumes and decorated homes to fit with that theme, and it's nothing you just change around on a friggin plate just to make it match your stupid CP constellation stars.

@carbonized - I think you are dead wrong (even though you are kind of right). Consider for a moment that if you are a mage inclined to get in fights in Morrowind you are liable to end up fighting other combatants who are highly resistant to fire. In that world does it make sense to wield fire or to wield one of the other elements? In the Morrowind game (TES:3) I actually found Cyromancers to be the most common enemies followed by Lightning wizards. I believe this was for this very reason and bravo to the developers for thinking of it. The Mushroom theme has a Telvanni flavor. I'm actually quite fine with Dunmer Wardens although a Hunger probably would make more sense for them instead of a Bear.

The bear was my main issue (hence the title of my post). As for Dunmer and fire or frost, I give you Destructive Ancestry racial passive. 7 % more fire damage, only 2 % more frost and lightning. And it used to be only fire and no frost until recently.

Then we have Dunmer racial skills from Skyrim as well. Ancestor's Wrath fire damage AoE. As well as knowing the spells Flames and Sparks per default. Nothing about frost.

Lore-wise, Dunmer have /always/ been associated with fire. Technically, fire also is weaker in combat against Dunmer due to their fire resistance, but judging from both lore and actual skills, Dunmer mages will always have an inherent preference towards fire magic, not frost. So once again, frost magic does not have any inherent association with neither the Dunmer race and culture, nor with the Warden lore. and Dunmeri mages would be much more likely to battle other races, in Cyrodiil in the Alliance War, or just exploring hostile lands. They won't be concerned with fighting each other, there's no Dunmer civil war going on.

The only appropriate application of nature and frost magic together would be a Nordic northern druid type of character. And that leaves you with the trouble of all the Morrowind-esque summons. Again, Frankenstein.

jlmurra2

I mostly agree with the "Frankenstein" comments. At the very least the Warden feels like the least focused class in the game.

dodgehopper_ESO

Carbonised wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I actually made a topic about this not too long ago.

And I wholeheartedly agree, though I come at it from another angle, prefering they had changed the bear into something more vvardenfell-esque, as well as the hawk animation, since I exclusively play Dunmer characters, of course.

No matter how you look at it, the Warden is a Frankenstein type of class, with bits of everything tacked on here and there.
It's like the devs sat down and thought "Hey, we need this forest type of class, let's call it Warden *poof, green balance was born*. But it's a part of the Morrowind Chapter, it needs to have a Morrowind feel *poof, animal summoning was born*. Oh, and people have been asking for ice magic for along time now, let's give them that too *poof, winter's embrace was born*".

From a lore perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever. As a Dunmer Warden, I do love being able to see shalk and fetcherflies and netches and cliff striders, though of course I can easily see why it doesn't appeal to anyone who's not a Dunmer. Also, ice magic doesn't really fit a Dunmer Warden either, they're pyromaniacs and live on a volcano. Same goes for the forest magic skill line. The fungi are great, but all the trees and vines and flowers don't really carry much of a Dunmer vibe either.

Anywho, the devs made a large mistake, at least when coming at this from a lore perspective, and I really hope they will be more considerate if/when they add more classes in the future. Unfortunately, Wrobel and his gang have zero respect for class individuality and class identity. That was plain as day when they turned stamDKs from Dragonknights to poison frogs overnight. If I had been playing a stam spec instead of mag, that would have made me quit the game the same day.
My Dunmer MagDK is based all around fire, I have bought mounts, pets and costumes and decorated homes to fit with that theme, and it's nothing you just change around on a friggin plate just to make it match your stupid CP constellation stars.

@carbonized - I think you are dead wrong (even though you are kind of right). Consider for a moment that if you are a mage inclined to get in fights in Morrowind you are liable to end up fighting other combatants who are highly resistant to fire. In that world does it make sense to wield fire or to wield one of the other elements? In the Morrowind game (TES:3) I actually found Cyromancers to be the most common enemies followed by Lightning wizards. I believe this was for this very reason and bravo to the developers for thinking of it. The Mushroom theme has a Telvanni flavor. I'm actually quite fine with Dunmer Wardens although a Hunger probably would make more sense for them instead of a Bear.

The bear was my main issue (hence the title of my post). As for Dunmer and fire or frost, I give you Destructive Ancestry racial passive. 7 % more fire damage, only 2 % more frost and lightning. And it used to be only fire and no frost until recently.

Then we have Dunmer racial skills from Skyrim as well. Ancestor's Wrath fire damage AoE. As well as knowing the spells Flames and Sparks per default. Nothing about frost.

Lore-wise, Dunmer have /always/ been associated with fire. Technically, fire also is weaker in combat against Dunmer due to their fire resistance, but judging from both lore and actual skills, Dunmer mages will always have an inherent preference towards fire magic, not frost. So once again, frost magic does not have any inherent association with neither the Dunmer race and culture, nor with the Warden lore. and Dunmeri mages would be much more likely to battle other races, in Cyrodiil in the Alliance War, or just exploring hostile lands. They won't be concerned with fighting each other, there's no Dunmer civil war going on.

The only appropriate application of nature and frost magic together would be a Nordic northern druid type of character. And that leaves you with the trouble of all the Morrowind-esque summons. Again, Frankenstein.

Just so we're clear I'm not hostile to you I simply disagree with you over some nuanced differences of opinion. I'm aware of the bonuses that came with passives but this doesn't make up the entirety of war. Morrowind is rife with warfare: Clandestine House war, Ashlander War, Daedric cultist war. In the original TES 3 game as my original comment suggests you will find many of the Dunmer opt to wield Cold or Lightning magic. When I first played this game I thought it strange until I played as a Dunmer and it became clear. As a Dunmer you can laugh Fire magic off (historically they have 75% resistance which meant immunity was possible rather easily). In ESO this is not the case. The point is quite simply that yes a Dunmer mage will know Fire spells because they come more easily to him or her. Then again a Dunmer mage is a mage and they tend toward mastery of destruction as a whole through their cultural and racial proclivities. The presumption that they must use only Fire magic is a mistake and context is important. House war is a major element in the theme of the series. They follow Boethiah-like belief systems which have been softened a bit by the Tribunal but nevertheless make their way into society. The Elves are Morrowind are far more violent than their Altmer cousins and this is exactly how they like it. I personally have a Dunmer that I created as a Warden on the alternate account and his theme is Telvanni mage. The nature magic really fits into their manipulation of nature in crafting their mushroom towers, alchemy, etc. Frost magic is just fine. The only oddity really is the Bear but it doesn't bother me that much. You can wear a Fire staff all the same and you're certainly open to utilize the Comet. At the end of the day if we're going to pick apart abilities, I think the notion of Class limitations as a construct doesn't fit the series far more than the actual notion of classes. Class in the series was always a jumping off point for the hero and a theme. It did not limit you like it does in ESO.

Savantus

Not to necro my own thread? Post? Whatever....but there are some good points made, I’m glad that we basically all agree that fundamentally the class is an abomination however people have been creative enough to make it work.

For what it’s worth if they sell “spell skins” I will be VERY UPSET because that’s nasty money when they ought to just reskin stuff automatically to whatever region you’re in even if that’s way more effort for them. I mean bears are kinda everywhere but it would be nice to seen them put the care into making the spells themselves appropriate. I get that someone has suggested it being some kind of translocational magic but holy *** is that a waste of magic to teleport a cliff racer (or whatever it is) across space and time just to smack someone with it, surely no sane mage would do that (other than Telvanni for shiggles)

HappyLittleTree

There once was a mighty Sorc of Pet, who got really drunk at the Mountain of Red.
He climbed the volcano to the top but fell, on the way down hit his head and lost his spell.
His magick now conjures animals abound, the locals decided to keep him around.
They named him the Warden and right where he fell, they drink in his honor and call the land Vvardenfell.


Ok, i think i need to stop drinking now ...

Can someone at Zos please intigrate this into the game as a book or poem? pretty please!

OtarTheMad

Warden definitely lacks focus but nature magic has been talked about in TES lore for a long time. Examples: reachmen, spriggans, etc.
I do think they pushed ice magic on it because so many people were calling for it but it works. I am not a fan of the pets being Vvardenfell based. Would have been better if it contained animals that were more spread out in each zone. Fletchers do make sense sort of because Spriggans “use” them and they are everywhere.

Glenmorils

I don’t see the lack of focus. Nature magic and animals goes well together (and is documented in TES lore, especially in ESO, with Spinners, witches and Wyresses and hagravens/hags, Reachmen, Spriggans, etc.) and frost magic isn’t much of a stretch. I do agree using Vvardenfell animals was a mistake, though, as nature magic isn’t common among the dunmer.

I don’t think looking at the class skills from a lore perspective is a great idea considering the differences from previous games. The other classes may be more cohesive for the most part (kinda) in terms of aesthetics but I don’t think Warden is all that different. The most striking aesthetically is Frost magic compared to the other two.