starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.
@Drachenfier
Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?
The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.
Drachenfier wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.
@Drachenfier
Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?
The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.
Today's market would be more similar to how later Everquest did it. ESO's market is similar to how the middle ages were.
starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
TTC and MM basically created that scenario. Don’t know if you noticed, but just about everyone sells for the same prices across all guild traders. The only difference now is a lack of centralized selling locations, and the ubiquitous guild politics governing who can sell at “the good spots”.
Drachenfier wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.
@Drachenfier
Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?
The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.
Today's market would be more similar to how later Everquest did it. ESO's market is similar to how the middle ages were.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.
@Drachenfier
Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?
The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.
Today's market would be more similar to how later Everquest did it. ESO's market is similar to how the middle ages were.
@Drachenfier
It’s been some time since Everquest so I read around a bit. Do you mean this here: http://almarsguides.com/eq/general/bazaar.cfm
I don’t see what’s similar to today’s market. I’m in the USA by the way.
ESO has multiple outlets spread out under a different store name.
Visiting the public stores (guild traders) allows you to search, buy and have items delivered to you instantly per store. Like Bestbuy retail
The closed (non trader) stores are member only and while you can search and buy with instant reliever it’s not open to everyone. Like SAMS Club
Then there’s the individuals who COD or use text chat and even social media to buy/sale. Like EBay or Amazon which offer ordering and delivery options per purchase.
To me, this game is more like todays economy than the Everquest example.
starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Motherball wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?
starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
TTC and MM basically created that scenario. Don’t know if you noticed, but just about everyone sells for the same prices across all guild traders. The only difference now is a lack of centralized selling locations, and the ubiquitous guild politics governing who can sell at “the good spots”.
Never realized there was a conspiracy to hold onto a few locations... oh, that's right, silly me, because there isn't.
There's no secret ESO Illuminati controlling who sells in Rawl'Kha, and who sells in Wayrest. There's just astronomical bids, and a kid with a 50 member guild, who bid 25k in Mournhold crying about how the system must be rigged on Reddit or wherever.
Amusingly, MM and TTC actually protect against what I'm describing, though. Yes, you can hunt around and snarf up stuff that got listed below market value. Believe me, I do. But it also means it's much harder to gouge people by setting a new market value way above what the current going rate was. This is something that can, and does, happen in games with centralized AHs. If you're picking up Aetherial Dust for 60k and reselling it for 75k, that's what the market will sustain. However, you don't see people standing in one place, hoovering up all of the Aetherial Dust on the market, and relisting it for 150k each. Which you can, and will, see with centralized AH.
Right now there's only 519 Aetherial Dust for sale on PCNA in public traders. That's a small enough market to start seriously manipulating the prices with less than ten million in the bank, if you had unlimited access to one centralized trader.
starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
We have that anyways with the addons in the game. This is part of a market place unless you have a price controls so that every item has and will always have the same pricing.
Sales are made as people undercut the typical averages so that a perceived value is present for the buyer.
People are tired of a system that in order to sell regularly to more than a select few, you get into feeling like a fleecing of the week by your guilds. The system is broken. Traders costing milli0ons per week, that would be 104 million a year for one trader @ 2 million a week, 624 million a year for a trade hub, 1.872 billion for the three major trader hubs on a server.
starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
We have that anyways with the addons in the game. This is part of a market place unless you have a price controls so that every item has and will always have the same pricing.
Sales are made as people undercut the typical averages so that a perceived value is present for the buyer.
People are tired of a system that in order to sell regularly to more than a select few, you get into feeling like a fleecing of the week by your guilds. The system is broken. Traders costing milli0ons per week, that would be 104 million a year for one trader @ 2 million a week, 624 million a year for a trade hub, 1.872 billion for the three major trader hubs on a server.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Motherball wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?
They don’t work better tho. I think that’s the disconnect.
Yes they seem more accessible but more access with less controls isn’t better. Those other games had exponentially lesser participants than this game would.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Motherball wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?
They don’t work better tho. I think that’s the disconnect.
Yes they seem more accessible but more access with less controls isn’t better. Those other games had exponentially lesser participants than this game would.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Motherball wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?
They don’t work better tho. I think that’s the disconnect.
Yes they seem more accessible but more access with less controls isn’t better. Those other games had exponentially lesser participants than this game would.
I’m going to have to call shenanigans on that. Everything that people claim happens with a global AH in other games already happens in ESO. The undercutting and price manipulation already exist. Happens every day.
Maybe, just maybe, the guild traders would have worked the way every thinks they should have worked if things like TTC and MM didn’t exist. Those things broke the system.
For example, why bother looking at the random traders out in the wilderness? Everyone sells for the same prices. So your odds of finding a better deal are virtually non-existent, and certainly not worth the time it takes to travel to all of them. So, those spots are basically a pointless gold sink for the guilds that win them. Especially when you can use TTC to see exactly who is selling what and for how much - you can immediately undercut the competition.
Then you have the main trading hubs, where all the real economy manipulation happens. You get the uniform pricing and undercutting (or collusion), which can sometimes lead to the best deals. On the other hand though, how often do those guilds lose their spots? Not very often, and if they do, they’re right back there the next week. They’re basically monopolizing those locations.
But, the biggest problem of them all is this:
If you want to sell your goods on the pseudo-auction house - you have to get another player’s permission. And, if you don’t adhere to their expectations, they can cut off your access without so much as an explanation. Players shouldn’t have that kind of power over other players.
Tl;dr: ESO’s guild traders already have the same issues as a global ah from other games, just the added annoyance of being subjected to the whims of another player when it comes to selling.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I don’t think people understand
Other games:
-Have multiple regions with multiple servers within those regions for a total of hundreds of different closed group auction houses.
This game:
-Two regions and one server per region for a total of 2 with thousands of closed group stores and hundreds of stores open to the massive server.
-Players are asking that this game have one store per region. Has anyone here participated in Diablo 3 auction house prior to it being removed?
That’s what it’s be like which wouldn’t be good for this game. You wouldn’t intentionally open up only 6 stores for 10 million players. No game is doing that, not even the bigger games at the height of their popularity.
starkerealm wrote: »Drachenfier wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »KiraTsukasa wrote: »
No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.
With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.
I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.
Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.
Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?
I'm currently in 4 guilds. Two don't bother with traders so don't really care. The other two usually get traders; the one is consistently in Vulkhel Guard. The requirements to belong to these two guilds? Log in once a week. Period. If you are playing the game at least once a week, you've met the stringent requirements.It's possible and every guild does that. You just need a certain amount of members.
Really? I've been looking for a Trade Guild for ages. But most of them have requirements. You either have to make a certain amount of sales each week, or pay a weekly fee (donation) or never go offline for more than a few days without notifying the guild.
It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.
Getting a good traders a lot of gold
How does a guild get gold for the trader?
- Selling tax (more sales = more tax income)
- Donations
- Raffles and such
Guilds with no income won't be able to get traders, or only traders lost in the middle of nowhere that only people questing or doing Cadwell's will ever stumble upon, if lucky.
If a guild wants to be (and stay) in one of the top spots, it needs a reliable income. Minimum sales makes the most sense; it benefits the guild, it benefits you (because you are making a profit with the sales too). If you can't get to the minimum sales requirement, maybe you don't need a trader in one of the top spots either.
Donations are another option for those who may not have that much time but still want to be able to sell their goods in a top trader when they have things to sell.
A guild is a joint effort by its members, contributing to its success shouldn't be seen as "ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through"
That is exactly my point, it shouldn't be this difficult. Not for guilds and certainly not for sellers.
I know people have been begging for an Auction House for years, but I don't think the Dev's can implement one (because surely they would have done it by now if it was possible).
So I think the next best solution (if players can't do it themselves) is for the Dev's to run their own Guild Trader. With no limit on how many members can join and no requirements.
It would be the next best thing to getting a Universal Auction House that everybody can use.
It's only as difficult as other players want to make it.
Your position is that basically casuals and people who barelys ell things should have the same privileged selling spots as dedicated traders do?
What's next, demanding hybrid dual bow builds to be able to do vMoL?
That's exactly what my position is! Why should anyone be excluded from a very important part of the game just because they can't meet the demands of some Guild?
The one does offer a voluntary participation raffle, and, voluntary again, two versions of auction. No sell x amount a week requirements, no buy x amount of raffle tickets every week, no buy x amount of auction items. The other guild doesn't have a raffle or auction but still manages to get a trader in a good spot most weeks, although the location does vary.
Being able to buy and sell is an activity in the game, but not exactly "a very important part". People can and do have fun without buying or selling anything. Then again, I started playing in early access, when there were no guild traders, only npc vendors and guild stores to sell to your guildmates, so possibly I'm missing something regarding the dire necessity of trading. Getting gold in the game isn't really that hard.