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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683901

Is It Possible For A Player To Make Their Own Auction House? For Everybody?

  • DMuehlhausen
    DMuehlhausen
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    I do miss the Bazaar in Everquest.

  • srfrogg23
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    TTC and MM basically created that scenario. Don’t know if you noticed, but just about everyone sells for the same prices across all guild traders. The only difference now is a lack of centralized selling locations, and the ubiquitous guild politics governing who can sell at “the good spots”.
  • NewBlacksmurf
    NewBlacksmurf
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.

    @Drachenfier

    Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
    What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?

    The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • Drachenfier
    Drachenfier
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.

    @Drachenfier

    Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
    What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?

    The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.

    Today's market would be more similar to how later Everquest did it. ESO's market is similar to how the middle ages were.
  • Ssalaar
    Ssalaar
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.

    @Drachenfier

    Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
    What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?

    The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.

    Today's market would be more similar to how later Everquest did it. ESO's market is similar to how the middle ages were.

    TOday's world economy is what the corporations wanted. The issue with that is if one region of the world is having an issue, it ripples and affects the whole world market. When it was not that way in the past , we didnt care if there was a typhoon in Japan area that shut down the economy there, America went right on moving.

    I personally don't use MM or other trading tools. As stated, no way in health would i trust running an executable on my machine. A Streamer BladeBorques used to make millions buying and selling from one trader to another, then moved on to another MMO and is doing the same there. He like the economy or whatever better. (and i think got in trouble for supposedly scheming the system that was dismissed? ) But i dont see a purpose of a single AH. I prefer the surprise of hunting to see what different merchants have and it reminds of the classic "shop around" and trying to be unique. too bad they fell in prey of housing and loot crates like all the other systems.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    TTC and MM basically created that scenario. Don’t know if you noticed, but just about everyone sells for the same prices across all guild traders. The only difference now is a lack of centralized selling locations, and the ubiquitous guild politics governing who can sell at “the good spots”.

    Never realized there was a conspiracy to hold onto a few locations... oh, that's right, silly me, because there isn't.

    There's no secret ESO Illuminati controlling who sells in Rawl'Kha, and who sells in Wayrest. There's just astronomical bids, and a kid with a 50 member guild, who bid 25k in Mournhold crying about how the system must be rigged on Reddit or wherever.

    Amusingly, MM and TTC actually protect against what I'm describing, though. Yes, you can hunt around and snarf up stuff that got listed below market value. Believe me, I do. But it also means it's much harder to gouge people by setting a new market value way above what the current going rate was. This is something that can, and does, happen in games with centralized AHs. If you're picking up Aetherial Dust for 60k and reselling it for 75k, that's what the market will sustain. However, you don't see people standing in one place, hoovering up all of the Aetherial Dust on the market, and relisting it for 150k each. Which you can, and will, see with centralized AH.

    Right now there's only 519 Aetherial Dust for sale on PCNA in public traders. That's a small enough market to start seriously manipulating the prices with less than ten million in the bank, if you had unlimited access to one centralized trader.
  • NewBlacksmurf
    NewBlacksmurf
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.

    @Drachenfier

    Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
    What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?

    The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.

    Today's market would be more similar to how later Everquest did it. ESO's market is similar to how the middle ages were.

    @Drachenfier
    It’s been some time since Everquest so I read around a bit. Do you mean this here: http://almarsguides.com/eq/general/bazaar.cfm

    I don’t see what’s similar to today’s market. I’m in the USA by the way.

    ESO has multiple outlets spread out under a different store name.

    Visiting the public stores (guild traders) allows you to search, buy and have items delivered to you instantly per store. Like Bestbuy retail

    The closed (non trader) stores are member only and while you can search and buy with instant reliever it’s not open to everyone. Like SAMS Club

    Then there’s the individuals who COD or use text chat and even social media to buy/sale. Like EBay or Amazon which offer ordering and delivery options per purchase.

    To me, this game is more like todays economy than the Everquest example.

    When reading these topics I think there’s another experience people think is better which is non-existent in the real economy but it’s this idea that there’s a global instant way to list and buy any and every good for everyone in the world at anytime. (Such a thing doesn’t exist) but when people ask for ESO to have a global auction house, to me it’s often interpreted as asking for the non RMaH Diablo 3 offered which was a terrible feature and why it was removed.
    Edited by NewBlacksmurf on March 14, 2018 4:13PM
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • Drachenfier
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    I've played just about every AAA mmo ever made, and I have an understanding of how supply and demand works. This is by far the worst, and I can't stress that enough, the worst market design I have ever seen. Even worse than Lineage 2, and that was awful.

    @Drachenfier

    Honest question and not trolling or baiting.
    What are your thoughts on your real world economy and access to goods and services?

    The game is more similar to that which is possibly why some have the opinion that this game doesn’t have a good economy.

    Today's market would be more similar to how later Everquest did it. ESO's market is similar to how the middle ages were.

    @Drachenfier
    It’s been some time since Everquest so I read around a bit. Do you mean this here: http://almarsguides.com/eq/general/bazaar.cfm

    I don’t see what’s similar to today’s market. I’m in the USA by the way.

    ESO has multiple outlets spread out under a different store name.

    Visiting the public stores (guild traders) allows you to search, buy and have items delivered to you instantly per store. Like Bestbuy retail

    The closed (non trader) stores are member only and while you can search and buy with instant reliever it’s not open to everyone. Like SAMS Club

    Then there’s the individuals who COD or use text chat and even social media to buy/sale. Like EBay or Amazon which offer ordering and delivery options per purchase.

    To me, this game is more like todays economy than the Everquest example.

    In late EQ, there were individual stalls all listed in a central AH. This is more similar to how it works today. ESO, without the inclusion of a third party addon mind you, has a bunch of scattered markets that are completely isolated. If you use a third party addon, you get closer to what EQ had, to a degree.
  • Motherball
    Motherball
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?
    Edited by Motherball on March 14, 2018 4:24PM
  • jssriot
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    Illurian wrote: »
    Tamriel trade center is probably as close as it gets.

    Pretty much. If you're smart and recognize how players are using TTC, you can essentially use it to make sure they see your listings.
    PC-NA since 2015. Tired and unimpressed.
  • Minyassa
    Minyassa
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    Nope, just because the top limit on members is 500.
  • NewBlacksmurf
    NewBlacksmurf
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    Motherball wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?

    They don’t work better tho. I think that’s the disconnect.

    Yes they seem more accessible but more access with less controls isn’t better. Those other games had exponentially lesser participants than this game would.
    Edited by NewBlacksmurf on March 14, 2018 4:31PM
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • srfrogg23
    srfrogg23
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    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    TTC and MM basically created that scenario. Don’t know if you noticed, but just about everyone sells for the same prices across all guild traders. The only difference now is a lack of centralized selling locations, and the ubiquitous guild politics governing who can sell at “the good spots”.

    Never realized there was a conspiracy to hold onto a few locations... oh, that's right, silly me, because there isn't.

    There's no secret ESO Illuminati controlling who sells in Rawl'Kha, and who sells in Wayrest. There's just astronomical bids, and a kid with a 50 member guild, who bid 25k in Mournhold crying about how the system must be rigged on Reddit or wherever.

    Amusingly, MM and TTC actually protect against what I'm describing, though. Yes, you can hunt around and snarf up stuff that got listed below market value. Believe me, I do. But it also means it's much harder to gouge people by setting a new market value way above what the current going rate was. This is something that can, and does, happen in games with centralized AHs. If you're picking up Aetherial Dust for 60k and reselling it for 75k, that's what the market will sustain. However, you don't see people standing in one place, hoovering up all of the Aetherial Dust on the market, and relisting it for 150k each. Which you can, and will, see with centralized AH.

    Right now there's only 519 Aetherial Dust for sale on PCNA in public traders. That's a small enough market to start seriously manipulating the prices with less than ten million in the bank, if you had unlimited access to one centralized trader.

    I didn’t say there was a “conspiracy”. I’m not sure what you think ubiquitous means...

    That aside, there’s nothing stopping people from hopping from one trader to another to buy up stuff and re-list it. That’s not a horrible strategy, though.

    Personally, I never had a problem with those people in other MMOs. I’d list a bunch of stuff that I farmed at low prices. They’d come buy my stuff, re-list it at a higher price, then I’d list more stuff at lower prices to ensure I’d get more sales.

    I’m not sure why everyone here thinks that’s a bad thing.
  • jedtb16_ESO
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    the poor auction horse.... such flogging it gets.
  • Grimm13
    Grimm13
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    We have that anyways with the addons in the game. This is part of a market place unless you have a price controls so that every item has and will always have the same pricing.

    Sales are made as people undercut the typical averages so that a perceived value is present for the buyer.

    People are tired of a system that in order to sell regularly to more than a select few, you get into feeling like a fleecing of the week by your guilds. The system is broken. Traders costing milli0ons per week, that would be 104 million a year for one trader @ 2 million a week, 624 million a year for a trade hub, 1.872 billion for the three major trader hubs on a server.
    https://sparkforautism.org/

    Season of DraggingOn
    It's your choice on how you vote with your $

    PC-NA
  • jedtb16_ESO
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    We have that anyways with the addons in the game. This is part of a market place unless you have a price controls so that every item has and will always have the same pricing.

    Sales are made as people undercut the typical averages so that a perceived value is present for the buyer.

    People are tired of a system that in order to sell regularly to more than a select few, you get into feeling like a fleecing of the week by your guilds. The system is broken. Traders costing milli0ons per week, that would be 104 million a year for one trader @ 2 million a week, 624 million a year for a trade hub, 1.872 billion for the three major trader hubs on a server.

    yup.... that's what 'free market' means.

    not that the market is free but that the market sets the price for everything.
  • Royaji
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    Grimm13 wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    We have that anyways with the addons in the game. This is part of a market place unless you have a price controls so that every item has and will always have the same pricing.

    Sales are made as people undercut the typical averages so that a perceived value is present for the buyer.

    People are tired of a system that in order to sell regularly to more than a select few, you get into feeling like a fleecing of the week by your guilds. The system is broken. Traders costing milli0ons per week, that would be 104 million a year for one trader @ 2 million a week, 624 million a year for a trade hub, 1.872 billion for the three major trader hubs on a server.

    That's called a gold sink. And despite all the hate on Guild Traders this might be the sole reason to keep them. Gold in MMOs appears from nowhere. So it either looses its value or should be taken from circulation. This one thing I like about ESO economy. 10 millions was a lot of gold 2 years ago and it still is.
  • Motherball
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    Motherball wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?

    They don’t work better tho. I think that’s the disconnect.

    Yes they seem more accessible but more access with less controls isn’t better. Those other games had exponentially lesser participants than this game would.

    It works better for what I like in an online rpg economy which is accessabilty and transparency. I cant comment on the number of players in games, but an AH works similarly to capitalism in my opinion, and even though I dont necessarily agree with it, it works for many countries in the world, which is more players than ESO.

    Monopolies dont exist when I can just go farm a few mats and undercut the lowest price. The little guy still makes money without having to jump through hoops.
    Edited by Motherball on March 14, 2018 9:20PM
  • srfrogg23
    srfrogg23
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    Motherball wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?

    They don’t work better tho. I think that’s the disconnect.

    Yes they seem more accessible but more access with less controls isn’t better. Those other games had exponentially lesser participants than this game would.

    I’m going to have to call shenanigans on that. Everything that people claim happens with a global AH in other games already happens in ESO. The undercutting and price manipulation already exist. Happens every day.

    Maybe, just maybe, the guild traders would have worked the way every thinks they should have worked if things like TTC and MM didn’t exist. Those things broke the system.

    For example, why bother looking at the random traders out in the wilderness? Everyone sells for the same prices. So your odds of finding a better deal are virtually non-existent, and certainly not worth the time it takes to travel to all of them. So, those spots are basically a pointless gold sink for the guilds that win them. Especially when you can use TTC to see exactly who is selling what and for how much - you can immediately undercut the competition.

    Then you have the main trading hubs, where all the real economy manipulation happens. You get the uniform pricing and undercutting (or collusion), which can sometimes lead to the best deals. On the other hand though, how often do those guilds lose their spots? Not very often, and if they do, they’re right back there the next week. They’re basically monopolizing those locations.

    But, the biggest problem of them all is this:

    If you want to sell your goods on the pseudo-auction house - you have to get another player’s permission. And, if you don’t adhere to their expectations, they can cut off your access without so much as an explanation. Players shouldn’t have that kind of power over other players.

    Tl;dr: ESO’s guild traders already have the same issues as a global ah from other games, just the added annoyance of being subjected to the whims of another player when it comes to selling.
    Edited by srfrogg23 on March 14, 2018 10:46PM
  • Klixen
    Klixen
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    srfrogg23 wrote: »
    Motherball wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Ive played several games that had an AH or bazaar and the trading is easier and more accessable for everyone. If items are overpriced in an AH system, I can just farm a few items and sell them to afford whatever I need. How can you argue for an exclusive system in a multiplayer videogame when inclusive ones work better and let players actually participate and enjoy such a huge aspect of these games?

    They don’t work better tho. I think that’s the disconnect.

    Yes they seem more accessible but more access with less controls isn’t better. Those other games had exponentially lesser participants than this game would.

    I’m going to have to call shenanigans on that. Everything that people claim happens with a global AH in other games already happens in ESO. The undercutting and price manipulation already exist. Happens every day.

    Maybe, just maybe, the guild traders would have worked the way every thinks they should have worked if things like TTC and MM didn’t exist. Those things broke the system.

    For example, why bother looking at the random traders out in the wilderness? Everyone sells for the same prices. So your odds of finding a better deal are virtually non-existent, and certainly not worth the time it takes to travel to all of them. So, those spots are basically a pointless gold sink for the guilds that win them. Especially when you can use TTC to see exactly who is selling what and for how much - you can immediately undercut the competition.

    Then you have the main trading hubs, where all the real economy manipulation happens. You get the uniform pricing and undercutting (or collusion), which can sometimes lead to the best deals. On the other hand though, how often do those guilds lose their spots? Not very often, and if they do, they’re right back there the next week. They’re basically monopolizing those locations.

    But, the biggest problem of them all is this:

    If you want to sell your goods on the pseudo-auction house - you have to get another player’s permission. And, if you don’t adhere to their expectations, they can cut off your access without so much as an explanation. Players shouldn’t have that kind of power over other players.

    Tl;dr: ESO’s guild traders already have the same issues as a global ah from other games, just the added annoyance of being subjected to the whims of another player when it comes to selling.

    Well said! That's how I feel.

    The current system excludes lots of people from ever participating. This is just so wrong!
  • Nyladreas
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    Lol all these people saying it's the worst market design probably just never figured it out. I've only had great sales in my guild. I can't almost notice a difference from WoW.
  • Taleof2Cities
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    There are a lot of trading guilds that don't have dues, @Klixen.

    Some players, however, don't want to spend the time to find a good trading guild.

    Then there are other players that join a guild and hardly do any sales ... which contributes nothing to the guild.

    The guild trader system works fine for those who genuinely participate.
  • kringled_1
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    I think it's heavily a matter of being both willing to find a guild that suits your needs, and having realistic expectations both about a) how much selling you are going to actually do, and b) how much you can get for what you're selling depending on where you're selling it. The two guilds that I'm in that have a trader (one is primarily a trade guild, the other the trader is a sideline) are both in non-prime locations. I find I have to price stuff low to get it to move, and some I am sure is being bought and resold at traders in prime locations. Some people would get annoyed by this; for me it's the price of having low sales/contribution requirements and it better fits how much stuff I bring in.
    You can still make quite a bit of money without selling stuff to players, if you're entirely opposed to ever having to deal with a guild trader. I'd still recommend finding one with no-minimal sales requirements/dues to start with and try to get a sense for how much stuff you have that people will actually buy and at what price. Odds are good the trader won't be in the best location.
  • Aeslief
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    No players are ‘excluded’ from the trader system. Some just put more effort into it than others.

    It blows my mind how hard the GMs and officers of my trading guilds work each week, organizing raffles, auctions, contests, and other fundraising activities to secure our trading spots. I don’t care to work that hard at it, and thanks to them I don’t have to. But if I want to participate and make good gold, I still have to take it at least seriously enough to do my part each week.

    As others have said, there are plenty of guilds with no requirements, and a fair few who regularly have traders. To say that anyone is ‘excluded’ is simply ridiculous. And hey, don’t want to be subject to ‘the whims of other players’? Then don’t join a guild, start your own and do all that hard work yourself. If you don’t want to do that either, then just chill and focus on the parts of the game that are really important to you.
  • greylox
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    The trade system as it is seems to be a money sink, it's annoying as hell not having a global trader but that's how they wanna do it so I'll just sell stuff to an NPC, too much effort.
    PC EU

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  • devan0216
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    I think I at least understand the arguments both for and against some kind of global trader. I don't like browsing all of the different guilds but I also wouldn't like the possibility of price fixing.

    What if a purchased item could be flagged as not resellable or account bound? I'm guessing people would be upset if that interrupts their income stream, but really I don't think this game is marketed as an economy simulator...
  • Niobium
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    I do miss the Bazaar in Everquest.

    EC Tunnel or GTFO!

    WTS Fungi 15kpp T2.
  • Hluill
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    I don’t think people understand

    Other games:
    -Have multiple regions with multiple servers within those regions for a total of hundreds of different closed group auction houses.

    This game:
    -Two regions and one server per region for a total of 2 with thousands of closed group stores and hundreds of stores open to the massive server.


    -Players are asking that this game have one store per region. Has anyone here participated in Diablo 3 auction house prior to it being removed?

    That’s what it’s be like which wouldn’t be good for this game. You wouldn’t intentionally open up only 6 stores for 10 million players. No game is doing that, not even the bigger games at the height of their popularity.

    Um, has anyone here played Guild Wars 2? That Auction House was Cross Servers. One Auction House for the whole game. The mechanics of it were built around undercutting...
    Black-handed Hluill and his daughter Leyek of House Numaril.
  • Hluill
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    Klixen wrote: »
    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Exactly. And people defend this system to their dying breath thinking it's good.

    No, but I it is better than what you get in open systems.

    With the current system, it's basically impossible to engage in any price fixing on a meaningful level. With a centralized AH, it's trivial to stick a bot at the AH, purchase and immediately flip anything that goes under the floor.

    I mean, do you particularly like the idea of having to pay 1m for BA pages? Or 15k for Tempering Alloys? Because that is where this system would go in short order. If you don't believe me, go check MMOs with unrestricted AHs, and look at the historical pricing for items in them.

    Please don't start with this crap again. If what you said were true, ESO would be the only MMO with an actual economy, instead of being the only one WITHOUT an actual economy.

    Have you played other MMOs? Have you seen the flipping that happens on their AH systems?

    ~sigh~

    Where are these MMOs with ruined economies? I have active accounts in a half a dozen of them. I am not seeing these horrific things.

    AND, whenever I want to sell something, I can. AND whenever I want to search for something, I can. ESO can't even design a search interface. AND the prices on their Guild Traders are just as ridiculous.

    Okay, so ESO wants this more immersive, decentralized system that acts as a solid gold sink. Cool. Gotta join a guild in order to sell stuff in a guild store to other players. Cool, elitest and excluding, but cool. Gotta spend hours, traveling the zones in order to shop. Yeah, sure. Can't even search for an item by name? Kinda ridiculous, especially with all the named sets of uberness.

    And, as I think about it, it really ain't immersive. When I want to buy something in the real world, I go to the store that sells it and I buy it. If it's some major-end item, I might do some research. I might even look for deals. I might even go to trade shows. When it comes time to buy, I go to the store that sells it and I buy it. I DO NOT travel all over the world, going from store to store, inquiring at each, looking for the item (which I cannot ask for by name)...

    Anyway, no auction hall is central to this game, fine. Don't tell me how it's "better."
    Black-handed Hluill and his daughter Leyek of House Numaril.
  • Tandor
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    JKorr wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    ssorgatem wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    ssorgatem wrote: »
    Klixen wrote: »
    TarrNokk wrote: »
    It's possible and every guild does that. You just need a certain amount of members.

    Really? I've been looking for a Trade Guild for ages. But most of them have requirements. You either have to make a certain amount of sales each week, or pay a weekly fee (donation) or never go offline for more than a few days without notifying the guild.

    It's just ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through just to sell some stuff.

    Getting a good traders a lot of gold

    How does a guild get gold for the trader?

    - Selling tax (more sales = more tax income)
    - Donations
    - Raffles and such

    Guilds with no income won't be able to get traders, or only traders lost in the middle of nowhere that only people questing or doing Cadwell's will ever stumble upon, if lucky.

    If a guild wants to be (and stay) in one of the top spots, it needs a reliable income. Minimum sales makes the most sense; it benefits the guild, it benefits you (because you are making a profit with the sales too). If you can't get to the minimum sales requirement, maybe you don't need a trader in one of the top spots either.

    Donations are another option for those who may not have that much time but still want to be able to sell their goods in a top trader when they have things to sell.

    A guild is a joint effort by its members, contributing to its success shouldn't be seen as "ridiculous the number of hoops you have to jump through"

    That is exactly my point, it shouldn't be this difficult. Not for guilds and certainly not for sellers.

    I know people have been begging for an Auction House for years, but I don't think the Dev's can implement one (because surely they would have done it by now if it was possible).

    So I think the next best solution (if players can't do it themselves) is for the Dev's to run their own Guild Trader. With no limit on how many members can join and no requirements.

    It would be the next best thing to getting a Universal Auction House that everybody can use.

    It's only as difficult as other players want to make it.

    Your position is that basically casuals and people who barelys ell things should have the same privileged selling spots as dedicated traders do?

    What's next, demanding hybrid dual bow builds to be able to do vMoL?

    That's exactly what my position is! Why should anyone be excluded from a very important part of the game just because they can't meet the demands of some Guild?
    I'm currently in 4 guilds. Two don't bother with traders so don't really care. The other two usually get traders; the one is consistently in Vulkhel Guard. The requirements to belong to these two guilds? Log in once a week. Period. If you are playing the game at least once a week, you've met the stringent requirements.

    The one does offer a voluntary participation raffle, and, voluntary again, two versions of auction. No sell x amount a week requirements, no buy x amount of raffle tickets every week, no buy x amount of auction items. The other guild doesn't have a raffle or auction but still manages to get a trader in a good spot most weeks, although the location does vary.

    Being able to buy and sell is an activity in the game, but not exactly "a very important part". People can and do have fun without buying or selling anything. Then again, I started playing in early access, when there were no guild traders, only npc vendors and guild stores to sell to your guildmates, so possibly I'm missing something regarding the dire necessity of trading. Getting gold in the game isn't really that hard.

    I agree that trading isn't a very important part of an MMO, but it is a core element and as such it shouldn't be hidden behind artificial restrictions such as membership of a guild that is successful in a weekly auction. It should be open to all.

    It's funny, isn't it, how those who criticise auction houses alleging they are a recipe for price-fixing, defend to the hilt a guild trader system that is entirely dependent on guilds taking part in an auction which we have seen time and again is prone to price-fixing.
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