"lol, triggered"

Biro123

VaranisArano wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

It all brings up the interesting question around simple communication - something which I've seen come up more and more lately..

It all boils down to the question of intent. Did the speaker (lets at speaker - but could easily mean typer/gesturer etc) mean what he said as an nasty insult or light-hearted banter?

Did the listener take it as it was meant?

I mean, I've seen numerous instances where an elderly person has said something (often relating to race/colour/sexuality etc) - not meaning to be insulting in any way, shape or form - but just using the kind of vocabulary that they learned - Terms which are perhaps no longer acceptable..

And the listener (or more often someone on their behalf) has chosen to take it as an insult and kick off over it.

Who is in the wrong here? I honestly don't know, but I do tend to think that society has drifted too far down the 'I chose to be offended!' route as opposed to the 'I'm sure you meant nothing by it' route..

Tolerance is quickly disappearing and it seems that being offended is the go-to response ... Bring back thick skins!!

I remember an old saying... Sticks and stones will break my bones, but calling names won't hurt me. I think that pretty much sums it up.. Its up to the listener to choose whether to be hurt/offended by words - or not to be. And I much prefer an attitude of assuming good intentions in people (even though it may not have came across well).

As I say to the kids I teach, "When you accidently hurt someone that you didnt mean to hurt, you should still say you're sorry."

Because honestly, if you didnt mean to hurt someone but you did, that's something to be sorry about. Someone is hurt. Ether you meant to or not, you did/said something that hurt someone else. Its not something to get defenisve about and say "well, you should have magically known I didnt mean to hurt you" or "well, you shouldn't be hurt because I didnt mean to hurt you." There's nothing wrong with saying, "I didnt mean that to be harmful, but I understand that I hurt you. I'm sorry, and I'll do my best to not do that again."

I expect kids too have trouble with understanding how to respond when someone says they hurt them when the kid didn't mean to. I expect adults to understand that their intentions aren't always clear and that sometimes apologizing for actions/words that caused harm despite intentions is necessary to maintaining good relationships with people.

You can have all the good intentions in the world and still hurt people. Someone pointing out that you harmed them is in fact giving you a chance to show that you had good intentions. If you truly have good intentions, respond like a decent person when someone points out that you harmed them by what you did/said. If you respond like a jerk, well, I'm going to doubt those good intentions.

That's a nice thought - but the reality is often that the response isn't 'you hurt me' - it is often a deliberate counter-attack and escalation - leaving the first person, who may happily have apologised wondering why this other fella is having a go.

Honestly - back to the topic, I just take T-bagging to be a way to communicate a dislike of your opponents actions and a way of saying 'that'll teach ya'. I don't see any sexual connotations in it, nor to i view it as any kind of deadly insult. It simply happens too often to still mean that anymore...
The same way that many swear-words have lost their potency over time (probably largely from overuse) and been replaced by others.. You Knave, you! :-p

I see that with kids too. Half the time they are fighting on the playground, its because "He pushed me first, so I pushed him back!" and the other kid is all "I didn't push him! He pushed me first! So I pushed him back!"

It usually works out that at the root of it, one of the kids did something accidentally and without intending to do it. They know they pushed the other kid by accident, but they didn't say sorry because obviously (to them, anyway) the harm was accidental. The other kid thought they did it on purpose and pushed back without thinking that it might be an accident or even bothering to tell the first kid "hey, you pushed me! That hurt."

As adults, when someone says, "What you said/did hurt me." that's an invitation to fix the problem before it escalates. That's assuming the person who hurt you has enough good intentions so that when confronted with the harm done, they'll apologize at the least and fix the problem.

As adults, when someone jumps straight to escalating the matter by doing or saying something hurtful back, yeah, its as confusing as that kid who did something accidentally and now has no clue why the other kid is mad at them (for something they didn't mean to do but still hurt the other kid.) Its as confusing as a teacher trying to untangle the stories of two kids yelling at each other on the playground and just wishing they'd both play the game politely in the first place. But at its root, someone hurt someone else, unintentionally, but still hurt someone else. Obviously, this isn't ideal behavior for adults, but if you ever find a place where we all get ideal behavior from adults...I'd say "sign me up for that utopia" but I don't think I'd make the cut. "You hurt me so I'll hurt you" is a behavior that's not remotely limited to children or playgrounds.

And that's where we come to teabagging. Because if you want to prioritize not unintentionally hurting someone like the OP, you might choose not to teabag at all. If you aren't willing to prioritize not unintentionally hurting someone like the OP, at some point, you have to decide how you'll respond to people telling you that you hurt them. That might be a reasonable "What you did/said hurt me" or it might be a "You hurt me so I'll hurt you" reaction where we all know people who do that. Its easy to say "I won't be a jerk to someone being reasonable." Its a lot harder to not be the kid on the playground hitting back at someone who hit you and that goes for everyone in this situation.

Which again comes back to people having different understandings of an action or word. Its easy to chose to avoid doing/saying something if you know that it is taken as a strong insult. Not so easy if you understand it's meaning as being a light-hearted jibe.

Its kind of like some of those text fails you see plastered over the internet.... 'So sorry to hear xxx died.. LoL' (thinking LoL meant Lots of Love).

The way I see it, if people take immediately take offence, whether meant or not - we have a potentially escalating situation over nothing..

If people give the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't escalate (unless the person really did mean to cause offence in which case, he's likely keep trying if he got no reaction - then its fair game). And giving the benefit of the doubt can also include asking 'Did you really mean xxx??' Which, if you ask me is the more adult response than escalating 'cos he started it'

Anazasi

Royaji wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Online Culture....Now there's an academic field of study.

The bottom line, Culture is a shared experience that is more fluid than rigid. It is not something that is genetically inherited rather it is something we learn and adapt to. It is changeable and the change starts in most case just like it has, with discussion and argument. Everyone in the online community knows what T Baggin means. If not use the internet's urban dictionary. It is offensive, sexually perverted, and generally dis-tasteful. I have pleaded with guild leaders, players and ZOS to stop this behavior. I do not have PTSD nor have I been sexually assaulted in my life. But there should never be room in any culture whether real or online that allows or accepts this type of behavior. A lot of you say this is a game, it's not real, or maturity is a key factor in some aspect. I and many others will argue that people who do bad things in a game or on the internet generally do bad things in life. In fact, laws are in place to specifically address such bad things such as internet bullying and harassment and let's face it, the weight of measure is always intent. If you intended your action to be harmful regardless of what that action was, harm is usually the end result.

This thread and perhaps even my unhealthy arguments against t bagging is only a micro focused sociological infatuation. The real issue is the macro level of social behavior this one little thing symbolizes. If we as a community can ignore and / or accept this type of behavior than it simply means the cultural line that should prohibit unacceptable behavior does not exist. Which means there is nothing to stop players from going further or even to the extreme of cheating. I'm not drawing a connection that says those who t bag cheat. what I am saying is those who t bag simply don't understand the difference between right and wrong. It has always been the axiom of the real world culture that just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should. But in reality, at least in the United States, the government watches everything to some extent.

Is it possible, that those that simply don't care about this type of behavior have been so desensitized by the overall online community and perhaps the real world that unacceptable behavior is just ignored? Maybe those that simply don't care need to seek some professional help. Simulated acts of violence eventually become real. (Even as I make that last statement, I can't stop myself from thinking about the school shootings, the box bombings, or even the all the other senseless acts of violence that happen daily. If you don't care about about this than the real issue is you simply are not part of the real world.)

#stoptheviolence

I think you'll find more support on twitter/facebook/tumblr with this kind of posts. Can we not bring SJW bullstuff to gaming please? Don't like it? Don't play it. "Simulated violence leads to real violence" my ass...

More like "Can you please not bring up basic politeness to someone who I didn't intend to harm but nonetheless was harmed by my action into my gaming? I don't want to think that I may have harmed someone or will harm someone when I didn't intend to and think about that means I have to think about maybe changing a pattern of behavior that I want to keep."

Look, if you don't want to prioritize consideration for people who might be harmed by teabagging, the least you can do is not be a jerk when they point out they were harmed despite your intentions. If you can't manage to not be a jerk, well, then I start to doubt your intentions are all that light-hearted.

I do not mind not being a jerk. I do mind full on SJW posts. My reaction is related to the specific post and not to the topic.

But if we were to focus on the topic. If teabagging is really such an issue for someone they should a) seek proffesional help and b) try to avoid playing PvP focused games and gamemodes where they can often encounter teabagging. You can't make everyone nice. There are bad people. And people who like to troll and think they are very clever in doing that. You are not stopping them. Trying to change everyone is a bad approach to something that you can solve yourself.

Obviously the more philosophical approach on WHY the behavior should be modified is not going to work here. So let's take a more direct approach to the topic. We all know what the mechanic represents and what's it's association is. Obviously we are all talking about t baggin even though it does not actually exists as an intended mechanic. T baggin is a sexual act. We all know what it means when we say it. We all can agree that anything sexual that is not consented on is a violation. In real life it''s described / defined as a criminal offense. Since we are all talking about a video game that is internet based and the sexual act is not real it than falls under the definition of harassment. "Harassment, under the laws of the United States, is defined as any repeated or continuing unconsented contact that serves no useful purpose beyond creating alarm, annoyance, or emotional distress." Since the creation of Title VII there has been further laws passed in the United States regarding internet harassment. Since everyone wants a fun safe environment for themselves, family and friends, even perhaps their children. This behavior needs to stop. There are no badges of honor in a video game. There are no t bag counters that record whether or not you happen to better than someone else at any given moment. This is a form of reality / immersion that according to ZOS 7.5 million players enjoy. The PVP community is not a special case where some people are above the law because they think they are better at punching particular keys in a sequence or using some form of cheat engine. This is a MMORPG title that is regulated by ZOS which is an American based company subject to American Federal laws. For them to permit such behavior is wrong and for a community to simply look the other way as if its an accepted norm. Far too many individuals are complacent with the status quo when it comes to behaviors and that is the problem with ESO. There is no anonymity that exists online anymore. Your behavior reflects on you and you are accountable for your actions. There are laws against Cyber Harassment, Cyber Stalking, and Cyber Bullying.

My point: harassment of any kind is wrong and it would seem that the person who started this thread is simply trying to explain why you as a player shouldn't do it.

ofSunhold

VaranisArano wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

It all brings up the interesting question around simple communication - something which I've seen come up more and more lately..

It all boils down to the question of intent. Did the speaker (lets at speaker - but could easily mean typer/gesturer etc) mean what he said as an nasty insult or light-hearted banter?

Did the listener take it as it was meant?

I mean, I've seen numerous instances where an elderly person has said something (often relating to race/colour/sexuality etc) - not meaning to be insulting in any way, shape or form - but just using the kind of vocabulary that they learned - Terms which are perhaps no longer acceptable..

And the listener (or more often someone on their behalf) has chosen to take it as an insult and kick off over it.

Who is in the wrong here? I honestly don't know, but I do tend to think that society has drifted too far down the 'I chose to be offended!' route as opposed to the 'I'm sure you meant nothing by it' route..

Tolerance is quickly disappearing and it seems that being offended is the go-to response ... Bring back thick skins!!

I remember an old saying... Sticks and stones will break my bones, but calling names won't hurt me. I think that pretty much sums it up.. Its up to the listener to choose whether to be hurt/offended by words - or not to be. And I much prefer an attitude of assuming good intentions in people (even though it may not have came across well).

As I say to the kids I teach, "When you accidently hurt someone that you didnt mean to hurt, you should still say you're sorry."

Because honestly, if you didnt mean to hurt someone but you did, that's something to be sorry about. Someone is hurt. Ether you meant to or not, you did/said something that hurt someone else. Its not something to get defenisve about and say "well, you should have magically known I didnt mean to hurt you" or "well, you shouldn't be hurt because I didnt mean to hurt you." There's nothing wrong with saying, "I didnt mean that to be harmful, but I understand that I hurt you. I'm sorry, and I'll do my best to not do that again."

I expect kids too have trouble with understanding how to respond when someone says they hurt them when the kid didn't mean to. I expect adults to understand that their intentions aren't always clear and that sometimes apologizing for actions/words that caused harm despite intentions is necessary to maintaining good relationships with people.

You can have all the good intentions in the world and still hurt people. Someone pointing out that you harmed them is in fact giving you a chance to show that you had good intentions. If you truly have good intentions, respond like a decent person when someone points out that you harmed them by what you did/said. If you respond like a jerk, well, I'm going to doubt those good intentions.

This is really insightful, and it comes up a lot in personal interactions. Nobody likes to feel like a jerk, especially when it wasn't even on their radar they might be doing anything that could hurt*. Always interesting to see who will live with that for five seconds and who will instead go on the attack, just to avoid that feeling.

Glad you're teaching. It's an easier thing to look at when people are still small I think.

* Obviously not the only issue going on here.

(Sorry for moving off topic, I'll take my own advice now and just step around the rest.)

ZOS_Mika

We have closed this thread down and removed a great number of comments because it has been largely inappropriate and off topic. Please keep in mind that if someone is behaving inappropriately in-game, this article has steps on how to submit a report. Thank you for your understanding.