Dragonknight Rework Needed

Stamden

Why make this post now? In the past, DK issues have been mentioned during pre-release PTS testing. This period typically only lasts several weeks. There is simply not enough time to fully address the problems in time, and because of that they often get ignored. By posting this months before Summerset Isles, hopefully this gives ample time to make the necessary changes for a complete rework of the class.

History

To really understand the issue, it's best to take a look at back at the history of Mag DKs and compare their power to the other setups at the time. A brief history would be:

[Beta/Craglorn] Mag DKs have high costs, but could drop many ults with cheaper standard and fast ulti gen so they got a lot of resource return.
[1.6] Standard cost increase, ulti gen massively reduced across the board, high costs still exist, class is borderline unusable.
[CP Update] Champion Points come out which reduce magicka cost, and acts as a band-aid for the ability cost problem
[Morrowind] Sustain reduced across the board for all classes. DKs, who have the highest costs and worst sustain, get impacted the most by this.
[CWC] Can be made usable is with Flame Lash. Even then, still one of (if not the worst) PvE setups in the game.
[Dragon Bones] Flame lash, the only thing making sustaining DPS possible, gets nerfed.

There is a consistent pattern here of Mag DKs being in a very bad spot and reliant on one skill/mechanic to function properly, only to have it removed later. Ultimate gen originally kept sustain great, then it was nerfed. Champion Points helped keep sustain okay, then cost reduction was removed. Flame Lash was a last resort mechanic to not immediately run out of magicka, and it was nerfed.

So why are we in such a terrible position? We're simply out of band-aid solutions.

Current

Let's look at the current role of the Dragonknight in the meta right now. They currently still make great tanks for endgame content. However, they are quite possibly the least effective setup at other roles.

Dragonknights as a healer has never been a thing. It is slightly better than it was at release because of the changes to Cauterize and Obsidian Shard. However, both of these skills lack any real consistency, which is extremely important for being a healer. Mending from Igneous Shield is probably the only thing that would make DK healers even semi-viable, but a while ago this ability was changed so that you lose Mending when the shield goes away, making it much less effective. Aside from those skills, Dragonknights get absolutely nothing in terms of other benefits. None of their other abilities or passives would make any sort of impact on a healer. However, I think most would agree that this is probably fine. Not all classes need to excel in all roles. If DKs lack of healing potential needs to be sacrificed to make them viable in the tank/DPS roles, than it is probably worth it.

The core of the problem is most relevant when you look at Dragonknights as DPS. I will avoid talking about Stam DK in this post, because stam setups are much more homogeneous. Mag DKs have had problems in the past, but it has never gotten this bad before. Mag DKs are in an terrible position right now in terms of their damage output. There are three types of viable DPS niches to fill: Ranged Magicka, Melee Stamina, and Melee Magicka. Mag DKs fall into the Melee Magicka role, which is the worst of them all. You lose the safety and convenience of range, while not getting any of the DPS benefits from stamina.. Melee magicka setups should be atleast on an even level of DPS compared to melee stamina, but unfortunately this is not the case.In fact, practically all ranged setups do more DPS than Mag DK anyway. As a Mag DK, you get all of the risk and none of the reward. There is absolutely no reason to bring one into any form of endgame PvE content at all right now. You are a major hindrance to a group by not being a more meta setup.

Solutions

There are many things that could be improved upon in the DK class. That is what I would like to see be discussed in this thread. Zenimax can certainly change the class in any way they see fit, but they might appreciate us throwing out some ideas.

One thing to look at would be improving upon the unused morphs in the DK skill tree. There are a myriad of morph options that see little to no use at all. I would assume with these, less than 5% of DKs choose these options, but I am sure Zenmiax has more data on morph selections. Some of these morphs are: Cauterize, Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Obsidian Shard, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks, Cinder Storm. Some of these may serve an extremely niche purpose like with Cauterize for healer builders or Cinder Storm for off-meta PvP tanks, but could still be improved upon.

The next thing to look at would be giving DKs some sort of reliable sustain. There are quite a few of options here as to what could be done. It could be either through active abilities or through passives. Something like magicka steal on Molten Whip would be interesting,

The last thing that could be done is simplying doing adjustments to the current numbers on the skills. Mainly, increasing damage and lowering cost. For example, a simple way to increase PvE DPS would be to greatly increase the damage of Eruption. Magicka cost being decreased on several skills would be very welcome aswell, but I think the majority of the sustain issue is going to have to be through other means.

If you have ideas, please post them below. Ideally, Dragonknights will be in a better state than they currently are when Summerset Isles drops.

Qbiken

Inb4 PvP players that didn´t understand it´s a PVE thread comes and says magDK is fine........

Jokes aside. The core issue with magDK is that they´ve the tools to achieve good DPS, but not the sustainability to use them. It´s obvious that ZOS doesn´t want us to rely on off-balance and flame-lash for PvE anymore (it was the only viable playstyle since Morrowid unless you ran a pure heavy attack build)

What I would like to see:

* Revert the changes to Battleroar and Helping Hands to how they worked before Morrowind.
* Reduce the overall cost of DK skills OR add a cost-reduction/recovery passive that comes with a condition.

In PvE the only place magDK works for me is in vMA where everything dies within a few seconds, so I don´t need to worry about sustain there. But in a trial magDK´s are so outclassed by literally everything this patch. Even magwarden is a better choice than magDK. If ZOS can fix the sustain issue in PvE environment, magDK will be back in a good spot again.

Vosital

Qbiken wrote: »

If ZOS can fix the sustain issue in PvE environment, magDK will be back in a good spot again.

I don't think sustain alone is going to fix it really. Even with infinite sustain (which is pretty much what the Flame Lash build was), Mag DK DPS is still bottom tier. There probably needs to be actual increases in damage numbers if they want Mag DKs to be competitive with meta builds.

aeowulf

Reverting all class based sustain changes to pre-morrowind would also put NB tanks back in the game. Considering they are no longer present in any content requiring dedicated roles, this would only be a good thing?

Can completely get behind you re DK healers, I've not seen even one of those. They need reviewing more than any other combo in the game. (If pug finder experience is anything to go by)

Is Helping Hands now the only (any) class passive that only restores one resource? Or skill for that matter? I think all morphs now give a choice?

VaranisArano

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

Saint_Bud

Mdk have a massive sustain issiu and if that get fixed, stam will still massivley outdps a mdk. Also stam profits from some buffsets like nmg, sunder flame and warmashine. In many raids the meele setup is a stamsorc buffbitch and 2-3 stamnb or 1 stamplar with warmashine.

Vosital

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

I think what the pretty much comes down to is if ZoS is going to allow DKs to be more than just tanks. Right now, I am pretty sure they are struck on the idea that this class can only be a tank class and nothing else, which kinda sucks for people who don't like afking and holding down right click.

VaranisArano

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

I think what the pretty much comes down to is if ZoS is going to allow DKs to be more than just tanks. Right now, I am pretty sure they are struck on the idea that this class can only be a tank class and nothing else, which kinda sucks for people who don't like afking and holding down right click.

No offense, but if you think tanking means going AFK while holding down block, you've either met some really bad tanks or aren't doing hard enough content.

I think the problem is that ZOS can't think of how to buff MagDK DPS in a way that doesn't simultaneously make Mag DK tanks the only choice for end-game tanking.

Vosital

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

I think what the pretty much comes down to is if ZoS is going to allow DKs to be more than just tanks. Right now, I am pretty sure they are struck on the idea that this class can only be a tank class and nothing else, which kinda sucks for people who don't like afking and holding down right click.

No offense, but if you think tanking means going AFK while holding down block, you've either met some really bad tanks or aren't doing hard enough content.

I think the problem is that ZOS can't think of how to buff MagDK DPS in a way that doesn't simultaneously make Mag DK tanks the only choice for end-game tanking.

Heh I guess there is a bit more to it than that, but you get my point. Tanking just isn't that fun for me and I know I am not the only one. It's kind of a niche playstyle, and I really don't think it should be an entire class's only viable option.

Is Mag Tank really what it is though? Aren't tanks usually more stam based, if anything? Mag regen is great for sure. I am pretty sure there are a lot of things that they could do to improve DPS while not having an impact on tanking ability.

VaranisArano

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

I think what the pretty much comes down to is if ZoS is going to allow DKs to be more than just tanks. Right now, I am pretty sure they are struck on the idea that this class can only be a tank class and nothing else, which kinda sucks for people who don't like afking and holding down right click.

No offense, but if you think tanking means going AFK while holding down block, you've either met some really bad tanks or aren't doing hard enough content.

I think the problem is that ZOS can't think of how to buff MagDK DPS in a way that doesn't simultaneously make Mag DK tanks the only choice for end-game tanking.

Heh I guess there is a bit more to it than that, but you get my point. Tanking just isn't that fun for me and I know I am not the only one. It's kind of a niche playstyle, and I really don't think it should be an entire class's only viable option.

Is Mag Tank really what it is though? Aren't tanks usually more stam based, if anything? Mag regen is great for sure. I am pretty sure there are a lot of things that they could do to improve DPS while not having an impact on tanking ability.

I know a lot of tanks are stam based, but the Dragonknight skills that see a lot of use for tanking (Chains, Talons, etc.) are all magicka. So at least on a dungeon level, I have an easier time tanking on my MagDK because of superior sustain for my crowd control.

caperon

After they changed battle roar and helping hands returns, DK doesn't use a huge stamina pool anymore. Now mostly stack hp with balanced mag and stam pools. You only use stamina to block and taunt, the rest of the kit uses magicka.

I agree that in dungeons mag DK tanking is better and more important, funnier (spam those skills baby)

Ragnarock41

you are incorrect about igneous shields, the major mending lasts 3 seconds, it was first changed to last as long as the shield does, which meant effectively losing the mending in one light attack in PvP, but after some big amounts of complaints zos changed it to 2.5 seconds down from 6( scaling to 3 seconds at max skill level I believe)

Still, 2.5 or 3 seconds of major mending for the cost of 4k magicka is not really all that amazing, at least not for stamDks since they now completely rely on hots after the shuffle nerfs.Might be good if DKs had a ranged burst heal like spores, but as of right now even stamdens do better healers than Dks do.

anyways, I see this is a PvE based post, so I will not change the discussion to something else. I just wanted to correct the error.

Stamden

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

you are incorrect about igneous shields, the major mending lasts 3 seconds, it was first changed to last as long as the shield does, which meant effectively losing the mending in one light attack in PvP, but after some big amounts of complaints zos changed it to 2.5 seconds down from 6( scaling to 3 seconds at max skill level I believe)

Still, 2.5 or 3 seconds of major mending for the cost of 4k magicka is not really all that amazing, at least not for stamDks since they now completely rely on hots after the shuffle nerfs.Might be good if DKs had a ranged burst heal like spores, but as of right now even stamdens do better healers than Dks do.

anyways, I see this is a PvE based post, so I will not change the discussion to something else. I just wanted to correct the error.

Ah that's right, I forgot they (sorta) changed it back. It's still kinda funny how Stam DK nerfs impact the niche DK healer build so heavily. I guess they thought nerfing Stam DK in PvP was more important than class flexibility.

Ragnarock41

Stamden wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

you are incorrect about igneous shields, the major mending lasts 3 seconds, it was first changed to last as long as the shield does, which meant effectively losing the mending in one light attack in PvP, but after some big amounts of complaints zos changed it to 2.5 seconds down from 6( scaling to 3 seconds at max skill level I believe)

Still, 2.5 or 3 seconds of major mending for the cost of 4k magicka is not really all that amazing, at least not for stamDks since they now completely rely on hots after the shuffle nerfs.Might be good if DKs had a ranged burst heal like spores, but as of right now even stamdens do better healers than Dks do.

anyways, I see this is a PvE based post, so I will not change the discussion to something else. I just wanted to correct the error.

Ah that's right, I forgot they (sorta) changed it back. It's still kinda funny how Stam DK nerfs impact the niche DK healer build so heavily. I guess they thought nerfing Stam DK in PvP was more important than class flexibility.

pre-nerf stamDK used to be able to have vigors that are fully buffed by major mending. now we can only have like 2 ticks of it, which makes the skill also semi-useless for stamDks. ( but please do remember while stamDK had this insane healing, we were on a proc meta , a meta that nightblades could one shot even heavy armor targets,so in a sense it was balanced by having the worst mobility.)

I think the best solution that would benefit both pvp stamDKs and pve magDKs, would be reverting battle roar to scaling with max resources again, and adding magicka return to helping hands passive, and also giving back 6 seconds of major mending, since we are on a defile meta and people are stacking up to %50+ healing reduction easily, having a fully buffed major mending wouldn't be as broken as it would before. ( and it would probably help magDK healer a lot too.)

Another skill that needs a buff is noxious breath, it needs an utility buff for PvP, as the dot itself does very little damage and is completely outclassed by sub assault. Its also dodgeable and it misses when you hit a cloaked target with it, so its definitely outdated from a PvP perspective.( and the damage is very,very low)

Or if they're afraid of permablocker problems, they can just give us straight %10-20 stam/mag regen, so we are on par with other classes when it comes to base regen.

only then, battle roar will be a true strength and not a burden, but thats just an opinion of mine.

And about ash cloud and cinderstorm, the damage of those skills could be greatly increased to give magDks better dps in pve. Some people are suggesting a stamina morph for these skills and I strongly disagree. I would , however, love a stamina morph of inhale or a poison whip, which would give the class a lot more flexibility in PvP. Problem is I don't know how that would affect it in PvE.

Stamden

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stamden wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

you are incorrect about igneous shields, the major mending lasts 3 seconds, it was first changed to last as long as the shield does, which meant effectively losing the mending in one light attack in PvP, but after some big amounts of complaints zos changed it to 2.5 seconds down from 6( scaling to 3 seconds at max skill level I believe)

Still, 2.5 or 3 seconds of major mending for the cost of 4k magicka is not really all that amazing, at least not for stamDks since they now completely rely on hots after the shuffle nerfs.Might be good if DKs had a ranged burst heal like spores, but as of right now even stamdens do better healers than Dks do.

anyways, I see this is a PvE based post, so I will not change the discussion to something else. I just wanted to correct the error.

Ah that's right, I forgot they (sorta) changed it back. It's still kinda funny how Stam DK nerfs impact the niche DK healer build so heavily. I guess they thought nerfing Stam DK in PvP was more important than class flexibility.

I think the best solution that would benefit both pvp stamDKs and pve magDKs, would be reverting battle roar to scaling with max resources again, and adding magicka return to helping hands passive, and also giving back 6 seconds of major mending, since we are on a defile meta and people are stacking up to %50+ healing reduction easily, having a fully buffed major mending wouldn't be as broken as it would before. ( and it would probably help magDK healer a lot too.)

I agree, this is a pretty simple way to make them more viable, but the simple fact is that game developers never revert changes. To business executives and other stakeholders, reverting changes just looks like the devs have been spinning their wheels (even if it is what's best). It's just like how they won't revert Inferno even though everyone liked the old one much better.

]Another skill that needs a buff is noxious breath, it needs an utility buff for PvP, as the dot itself does very little damage and is completely outclassed by sub assault. Its also dodgeable and it misses when you hit a cloaked target with it, so its definitely outdated from a PvP perspective.( and the damage is very,very low)

Yeah, Fiery Breath as a whole just needs it's hitbox reworked or something. I'd use it in PvP on my mDK but it barely ever hits, so it's a wasted slot and wasted magicka.

And about ash cloud and cinderstorm, the damage of those skills could be greatly increased to give magDks better dps in pve. Some people are suggesting a stamina morph for these skills and I strongly disagree. I would , however, love a stamina morph of inhale or a poison whip, which would give the class a lot more flexibility in PvP. Problem is I don't know how that would affect it in PvE.

More stamina unique things would be good too. Right now they are the most bland of any setup in the game. I just don't know what they could really do though, since Stam DKs in PvE are pretty solid.

SaintSubwayy

Well since MAgDK dont use the OFfbalance morph of the Whip anymore, they could buff the other Morph, which gives X ammount of Spelldmg to your flame abilities by alot.

Furthermore i dont get why DK need Stonefist and Petrify as stunnskills, one should be enough. Maybe combine them somehow like:

Stonefist: Stunns your enemy for 3s, Max Range 25m, This skill cannot be blocked.

Cahnge Petrify to a Sustainskill like magblades Leeching Strikes. Maybe tie it to your dmg output, or the Burning / Poisoned Statuseffect (which has a high uptime in PVE nowadays)


Baseskill:
Leeching Scales: When you deal dmg to an enemy affected by any Statuseffect you restore X ammount of magicka/stamina for each tick of the Statuseffect. (Depending on your max Resource)

Morph 1:
Leeching Bite: When you deal Posiondmg to a Poisoned Enemy, you restore 2X ammount of Stamina for each Poisoned tick, you and allies within 5m will gain minor Heroism for 8s upon Activation. (this skill can only be cast on enemies, not out of combat)
Duration: 20s
Cost: ~2500 Stamina
Range 8m

Morph 2:
Leeching Flames: When you deal FLamedmg to a Burning enemy you restore 2X ammount of Magicka for each Burning Tick, you and allies within 5m will gain 10% of ther max Resource over 8s once upon activation. (this skill can only be cast on enemies, not out of combat)
Duration: 20s
Cost: ~2500 Magicka
Range: 8m

Seraphayel

- Let Igneous Shield scale with Magicka and increase the duration of Major Mending = a huge benefit for DK healers

Ragnarock41

There is a thread pinned to general disucssions about class balance, I highly advise you guys to read it..

ecru

MagDK needs to bring something unique or beneficial to a raid group that is equal or better to the buffs/debuffs provided by stamina dps. Until that is addressed, not a lot of people are going to want to have a magdk taking up a melee spot in a trial.

Stamden

ecru wrote: »

MagDK needs to bring something unique or beneficial to a raid group that is equal or better to the buffs/debuffs provided by stamina dps. Until that is addressed, not a lot of people are going to want to have a magdk taking up a melee spot in a trial.

Yeah this is key to making Mag DK DPS viable in endgame content. There is just no reason to bring one over a melee stam setup. Ideally, Mag DK DPS would be equal to melee stam DPS, but at the very least it should have some unique bonuses.

They could possibly buff the bonus fire damage given from Engulfing Flames. Atleast then it would be nice to have one DK in your group.

xaraan

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

I think what the pretty much comes down to is if ZoS is going to allow DKs to be more than just tanks. Right now, I am pretty sure they are struck on the idea that this class can only be a tank class and nothing else, which kinda sucks for people who don't like afking and holding down right click.

No offense, but if you think tanking means going AFK while holding down block, you've either met some really bad tanks or aren't doing hard enough content.

I think the problem is that ZOS can't think of how to buff MagDK DPS in a way that doesn't simultaneously make Mag DK tanks the only choice for end-game tanking.

Heh I guess there is a bit more to it than that, but you get my point. Tanking just isn't that fun for me and I know I am not the only one. It's kind of a niche playstyle, and I really don't think it should be an entire class's only viable option.

Is Mag Tank really what it is though? Aren't tanks usually more stam based, if anything? Mag regen is great for sure. I am pretty sure there are a lot of things that they could do to improve DPS while not having an impact on tanking ability.

I personally never really think of my tanks as stam or mag based. Maybe health based? But you want stam a little higher than mag maybe so you get it back with orbs/shards, but personally I'd rather have much higher regen on magicka since most skills used will come from there. I don't know if saying I'm a stam based tank is accurate if I have 17k mag and 18k stam and mostly use magicka skill wise.

Which doesn't really address the question, but it sidetracked me with that thought when I saw your response.

On the Opening Post - Out of all my DPS, including my Wardens (stam and mag), my MagDK feels the worst. Very much for some of the reasons stated - having to play melee without any of the other benefits most melee stam players work with is one and not quite sure how to best fix that one.

But some other changes that might be good - make the dots stronger. Frankly, the damage just needs to be higher on DK and they don't rely on executes, they rely on dots and this is something that can be purged off in PvP, so although it will make them a bit stronger there too, won't be as bad as just flat damage increase on a direct damage ability.

The other thing they could do is make skills cheaper. Frankly, tanks need this help as well - the skills just cost way too much. Even if my DK feels like a strong tank, his skills are crazy expensive compared to my other tank classes. (And honestly some things aren't as strong as they used to be when comparing to other classes as well - I can get a stronger single burst heal on my sorc tank by far and more consistent hots on my warden for very cheap, etc). But I notice on my MagDK, feels like I am almost immediately out of resources after doing a rotation vs any other mag class I have.

Some specifics on skills -

Personally I'd make Engulfing flames buff only the casters fire damage. I know, DK tanks and the players that tell others what gear and class to run in a raid will hate the idea - but frankly it would keep DK from having one more thing to put them over vs. every other class in tanking. Would give it a solid use still for the caster and I would also add the magicka armor fracture Major Breach to the skill the same way the stam version has Major Fracture. Wouldn't make it stronger on some fights where you have that debuff being applied, but would give them some additional use with the skill in other situations.

Don't mess up my cauterize. It's actually in a good spot and is actually my tanks #1 heal in vAS over DB. It's nice to have a HoT that will hit me or another when in need and just put it up and forget about it. If anything I'd wish it lasted one more tick up to 20 seconds instead of 15.

Wings needs something - not that it's weak, but could make the two morphs stand apart more. Could even let one stay as a flat/short reflect as it is and make the other a sort of blade cloak against ranged attacks where it just causes a certain % of damage to get reflected back at attacker and have it last much much longer. Might help it be useful on a melee build where you have to be up close and taking more damage without being OP.

Obsidian Shard is ok I guess in some niche uses, but still pretty meh. I think that just needs changed completely personally. Maybe make the attack version more like stormfist where it comes up from the ground and does some sort of dot damage vs one slow direct damage attack and have the healing version drop a shard down for a small HoT at a target area almost like a targeted Bogdan proc.

Vosital

xaraan wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

I think what the pretty much comes down to is if ZoS is going to allow DKs to be more than just tanks. Right now, I am pretty sure they are struck on the idea that this class can only be a tank class and nothing else, which kinda sucks for people who don't like afking and holding down right click.

No offense, but if you think tanking means going AFK while holding down block, you've either met some really bad tanks or aren't doing hard enough content.

I think the problem is that ZOS can't think of how to buff MagDK DPS in a way that doesn't simultaneously make Mag DK tanks the only choice for end-game tanking.

Heh I guess there is a bit more to it than that, but you get my point. Tanking just isn't that fun for me and I know I am not the only one. It's kind of a niche playstyle, and I really don't think it should be an entire class's only viable option.

Is Mag Tank really what it is though? Aren't tanks usually more stam based, if anything? Mag regen is great for sure. I am pretty sure there are a lot of things that they could do to improve DPS while not having an impact on tanking ability.

I personally never really think of my tanks as stam or mag based. Maybe health based? But you want stam a little higher than mag maybe so you get it back with orbs/shards, but personally I'd rather have much higher regen on magicka since most skills used will come from there. I don't know if saying I'm a stam based tank is accurate if I have 17k mag and 18k stam and mostly use magicka skill wise.

Yeah I agree. But a lot of people make the odd argument that "if they make mDKs better, then they will be even better tanks!" which really isn't true at all. There are a lot of things they could do that would have many benefits to mDK without changing a thing about the tanking aspect of the class.

Stamden

@xaraan I still think they should revert Inferno. The one we currently have isn't terrible, but the idea of a constant AoE DoT is exactly what a mDK needs to feel unique. There could even be a Cauterize morph which turns it into a AoE HoT instead. So not only would your tank have a heal, but DK healer would be way better.

Sugaroverdose

Stamden wrote: »

Why make this post now? In the past, DK issues have been mentioned during pre-release PTS testing. This period typically only lasts several weeks. There is simply not enough time to fully address the problems in time, and because of that they often get ignored. By posting this months before Summerset Isles, hopefully this gives ample time to make the necessary changes for a complete rework of the class.

History

To really understand the issue, it's best to take a look at back at the history of Mag DKs and compare their power to the other setups at the time. A brief history would be:

[Beta/Craglorn] Mag DKs have high costs, but could drop many ults with cheaper standard and fast ulti gen so they got a lot of resource return.
[1.6] Standard cost increase, ulti gen massively reduced across the board, high costs still exist, class is borderline unusable.
[CP Update] Champion Points come out which reduce magicka cost, and acts as a band-aid for the ability cost problem
[Morrowind] Sustain reduced across the board for all classes. DKs, who have the highest costs and worst sustain, get impacted the most by this.
[CWC] Can be made usable is with Flame Lash. Even then, still one of (if not the worst) PvE setups in the game.
[Dragon Bones] Flame lash, the only thing making sustaining DPS possible, gets nerfed.

There is a consistent pattern here of Mag DKs being in a very bad spot and reliant on one skill/mechanic to function properly, only to have it removed later. Ultimate gen originally kept sustain great, then it was nerfed. Champion Points helped keep sustain okay, then cost reduction was removed. Flame Lash was a last resort mechanic to not immediately run out of magicka, and it was nerfed.

So why are we in such a terrible position? We're simply out of band-aid solutions.

Current

Let's look at the current role of the Dragonknight in the meta right now. They currently still make great tanks for endgame content. However, they are quite possibly the least effective setup at other roles.

Dragonknights as a healer has never been a thing. It is slightly better than it was at release because of the changes to Cauterize and Obsidian Shard. However, both of these skills lack any real consistency, which is extremely important for being a healer. Mending from Igneous Shield is probably the only thing that would make DK healers even semi-viable, but a while ago this ability was changed so that you lose Mending when the shield goes away, making it much less effective. Aside from those skills, Dragonknights get absolutely nothing in terms of other benefits. None of their other abilities or passives would make any sort of impact on a healer. However, I think most would agree that this is probably fine. Not all classes need to excel in all roles. If DKs lack of healing potential needs to be sacrificed to make them viable in the tank/DPS roles, than it is probably worth it.

The core of the problem is most relevant when you look at Dragonknights as DPS. I will avoid talking about Stam DK in this post, because stam setups are much more homogeneous. Mag DKs have had problems in the past, but it has never gotten this bad before. Mag DKs are in an terrible position right now in terms of their damage output. There are three types of viable DPS niches to fill: Ranged Magicka, Melee Stamina, and Melee Magicka. Mag DKs fall into the Melee Magicka role, which is the worst of them all. You lose the safety and convenience of range, while not getting any of the DPS benefits from stamina.. Melee magicka setups should be atleast on an even level of DPS compared to melee stamina, but unfortunately this is not the case.In fact, practically all ranged setups do more DPS than Mag DK anyway. As a Mag DK, you get all of the risk and none of the reward. There is absolutely no reason to bring one into any form of endgame PvE content at all right now. You are a major hindrance to a group by not being a more meta setup.

Solutions

There are many things that could be improved upon in the DK class. That is what I would like to see be discussed in this thread. Zenimax can certainly change the class in any way they see fit, but they might appreciate us throwing out some ideas.

One thing to look at would be improving upon the unused morphs in the DK skill tree. There are a myriad of morph options that see little to no use at all. I would assume with these, less than 5% of DKs choose these options, but I am sure Zenmiax has more data on morph selections. Some of these morphs are: Cauterize, Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Obsidian Shard, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks, Cinder Storm. Some of these may serve an extremely niche purpose like with Cauterize for healer builders or Cinder Storm for off-meta PvP tanks, but could still be improved upon.

The next thing to look at would be giving DKs some sort of reliable sustain. There are quite a few of options here as to what could be done. It could be either through active abilities or through passives. Something like magicka steal on Molten Whip would be interesting,

The last thing that could be done is simplying doing adjustments to the current numbers on the skills. Mainly, increasing damage and lowering cost. For example, a simple way to increase PvE DPS would be to greatly increase the damage of Eruption. Magicka cost being decreased on several skills would be very welcome aswell, but I think the majority of the sustain issue is going to have to be through other means.

If you have ideas, please post them below. Ideally, Dragonknights will be in a better state than they currently are when Summerset Isles drops.

Magdk needs class and race change tokens for free, cause it's terribly broken trash now.

Stamden

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Stamden wrote: »

Why make this post now? In the past, DK issues have been mentioned during pre-release PTS testing. This period typically only lasts several weeks. There is simply not enough time to fully address the problems in time, and because of that they often get ignored. By posting this months before Summerset Isles, hopefully this gives ample time to make the necessary changes for a complete rework of the class.

History

To really understand the issue, it's best to take a look at back at the history of Mag DKs and compare their power to the other setups at the time. A brief history would be:

[Beta/Craglorn] Mag DKs have high costs, but could drop many ults with cheaper standard and fast ulti gen so they got a lot of resource return.
[1.6] Standard cost increase, ulti gen massively reduced across the board, high costs still exist, class is borderline unusable.
[CP Update] Champion Points come out which reduce magicka cost, and acts as a band-aid for the ability cost problem
[Morrowind] Sustain reduced across the board for all classes. DKs, who have the highest costs and worst sustain, get impacted the most by this.
[CWC] Can be made usable is with Flame Lash. Even then, still one of (if not the worst) PvE setups in the game.
[Dragon Bones] Flame lash, the only thing making sustaining DPS possible, gets nerfed.

There is a consistent pattern here of Mag DKs being in a very bad spot and reliant on one skill/mechanic to function properly, only to have it removed later. Ultimate gen originally kept sustain great, then it was nerfed. Champion Points helped keep sustain okay, then cost reduction was removed. Flame Lash was a last resort mechanic to not immediately run out of magicka, and it was nerfed.

So why are we in such a terrible position? We're simply out of band-aid solutions.

Current

Let's look at the current role of the Dragonknight in the meta right now. They currently still make great tanks for endgame content. However, they are quite possibly the least effective setup at other roles.

Dragonknights as a healer has never been a thing. It is slightly better than it was at release because of the changes to Cauterize and Obsidian Shard. However, both of these skills lack any real consistency, which is extremely important for being a healer. Mending from Igneous Shield is probably the only thing that would make DK healers even semi-viable, but a while ago this ability was changed so that you lose Mending when the shield goes away, making it much less effective. Aside from those skills, Dragonknights get absolutely nothing in terms of other benefits. None of their other abilities or passives would make any sort of impact on a healer. However, I think most would agree that this is probably fine. Not all classes need to excel in all roles. If DKs lack of healing potential needs to be sacrificed to make them viable in the tank/DPS roles, than it is probably worth it.

The core of the problem is most relevant when you look at Dragonknights as DPS. I will avoid talking about Stam DK in this post, because stam setups are much more homogeneous. Mag DKs have had problems in the past, but it has never gotten this bad before. Mag DKs are in an terrible position right now in terms of their damage output. There are three types of viable DPS niches to fill: Ranged Magicka, Melee Stamina, and Melee Magicka. Mag DKs fall into the Melee Magicka role, which is the worst of them all. You lose the safety and convenience of range, while not getting any of the DPS benefits from stamina.. Melee magicka setups should be atleast on an even level of DPS compared to melee stamina, but unfortunately this is not the case.In fact, practically all ranged setups do more DPS than Mag DK anyway. As a Mag DK, you get all of the risk and none of the reward. There is absolutely no reason to bring one into any form of endgame PvE content at all right now. You are a major hindrance to a group by not being a more meta setup.

Solutions

There are many things that could be improved upon in the DK class. That is what I would like to see be discussed in this thread. Zenimax can certainly change the class in any way they see fit, but they might appreciate us throwing out some ideas.

One thing to look at would be improving upon the unused morphs in the DK skill tree. There are a myriad of morph options that see little to no use at all. I would assume with these, less than 5% of DKs choose these options, but I am sure Zenmiax has more data on morph selections. Some of these morphs are: Cauterize, Hardened Armor, Reflective Plate, Obsidian Shard, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks, Cinder Storm. Some of these may serve an extremely niche purpose like with Cauterize for healer builders or Cinder Storm for off-meta PvP tanks, but could still be improved upon.

The next thing to look at would be giving DKs some sort of reliable sustain. There are quite a few of options here as to what could be done. It could be either through active abilities or through passives. Something like magicka steal on Molten Whip would be interesting,

The last thing that could be done is simplying doing adjustments to the current numbers on the skills. Mainly, increasing damage and lowering cost. For example, a simple way to increase PvE DPS would be to greatly increase the damage of Eruption. Magicka cost being decreased on several skills would be very welcome aswell, but I think the majority of the sustain issue is going to have to be through other means.

If you have ideas, please post them below. Ideally, Dragonknights will be in a better state than they currently are when Summerset Isles drops.

Magdk needs class and race change tokens for free, cause it's terribly broken trash now.

I'd rather just have them make improvements to the current class instead of ditching it and giving up.

josiahva

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

lol, no other classes CAN compete for best tank slot....the closest is warden, and frozen gate makes a poor substitute for chains, and their reflect is a sad mockery of wings...and those 2 skills are critical for end game tanking. The only other class with a good root is sorcerer, but it lacks a pull and a reflect. Sure you can end game tank with whatever class you want, but none of them has a complete tool kit...but it is NOT magicka DK tanks that are needed so much as HYBRID DK tanks. I run high health, moderate stamina, and low magicka with great magicka and stamina regen on my DK tank

josiahva

Vosital wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the reason that MagDK DDs are in such a bad place is that MagDK Tanks are still the best option for end-game content. ZOS has to balance making MagDK DDs competitive with their desire to make sure everything else stays competitive with MagDK Tanks for the role of tank. Buff MagDKs too much and no other class can compete in the tanking role.

I think what the pretty much comes down to is if ZoS is going to allow DKs to be more than just tanks. Right now, I am pretty sure they are struck on the idea that this class can only be a tank class and nothing else, which kinda sucks for people who don't like afking and holding down right click.

You know nothing about tanking if you think thats what tanks do, but I agree, ZOS has shoehorned DKs into the tank role. I still play a mag DK DPS in PvP, but it is so reliant on heavy attacks for sustain I spent 80% of my time heavy attacking and just going for the burst damage the rest of the time...barely viable in PvP...but would never work in PvE