The common notion of Cheese

WatchYourSixx

So, every since target dummies became a thing ive noticed people discussing this thing called "cheese". I've never really understood why it was called that.. but anyways..

Why is "cheese" bad? On a solo dps parse, why is it that any "cheese" is now indicative of DPS in a trial or dungeon? If I can pull 50k solo dps on a Target dummy with all kinds of cheese, how is it bad? Is it not indicative of the dps that you can do? Wouldn't cheese be indicative of how much your dps should be, if not even higher?

I'd love to know why a cheese parse isn't taken seriously.

VaranisArano

Generally, a cheese parse is one that doesn't accurately reflect combat conditions in a trial. So its great for bragging about your DPS, but it doesn't help anyone trying to figure out how you'll perform in actual combat.

If you were a guild using the parse to determine who's actually going to perform up-to-snuff in your raid, you want a parse that doesn't use cheese that you won't be using in the actual raid situation.

Maryal

Cheese is wonderful, awesome, amazing, and quite delectable. Besides, Uncle Sheo loves cheese!

Time for a celebration... Cheese for everyone! Wait, scratch that. Cheese for no one ...can't be much of a celebration, if you don't like cheese.

--- nam nam nam ---

LOL!

WatchYourSixx

How does it not determine how you'll perform in actual combat? If you can do 50k cheese you can do at least that in a trial stand still. In a fully buffed situation, extra pen would be wasted, yes, but you dps wouldn't be any lower. I get that it doesn't represent how you would perform fully buffed, but solo parses aren't fully buffed anyways.

VaranisArano

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

How does it not determine how you'll perform in actual combat? If you can do 50k cheese you can do at least that in a trial stand still. In a fully buffed situation, extra pen would be wasted, yes, but you dps wouldn't be any lower. I get that it doesn't represent how you would perform fully buffed, but solo parses aren't fully buffed anyways.

What exactly are you thinking off when you talk about cheese?

When I hear it talked about in terms of parses, I hear people talking about cheese that is wearing sets you wouldn't normally wear and using a rotation that you can't normally sustain.

Typically, its preferred that you do your parse in your raid gear and with your raid rotation, with the expectation that your DPS will increase from all the raid buffs but probably also decrease from the exigencies of actual combat.

laissezfaire

To cheese a parse, it might be that you only have 13k health because of the food you are using or not having any heavy armor pieces, etc. I have also seen people use steward gaurd on parses that normally wouldn’t have access to it in a raid setting.

beetleklee

One thing I noticed is people used to be like "parse with the Lover and Kragh's (if a stam dps) because it will represent the pen you'll get from piercing in a trial" but lately now I've seen even people consider that to be cheesing, haha.

So now I'm just parsing with my normal raid setup. Not a huge DPS difference anyways, maybe 1k or 2k.

Sixty5

Basically if you are parsing with stuff you wouldn't take into a raid, you are cheesing the dummy.

Lover is going to give you higher DPS than Warrior on a dummy because you can't solo remove all enemy armour.
Another example would be swapping out to green food to boost your max resource, given that health is less important in a parse.

It's why Stamblades parse so high compared to say a Stam Sorc, because they are getting Fracture and Berserk from their kits, while the sorc does not.

WatchYourSixx

I mostly see cheese referred to as setups that you could take into a trial, such as kraghs or lover or TFS. It is most commonly related to penetration. However I do see other references to cheese as well. Running trap on a ranged build that you're fighting melee just to use trap could be another example.

I guess what I'm wondering and wanted to hear people's thoughts on it, is why is cheese not relevant? If I can do 50k with cheese, and 40k without, would you not agree that you could still do at least 50k in trials and dungeons with the cheese? Yes, the 40k should be theoretically higher in a buffed situation. However, when determining a player's ability to dps both numbers should be relevant but they're not.

Just look around on the forums. Someone talks about a scenario where cheese is used, and other people point out "oh but you were cheesing it so it doesn't count". I just don't understand why it doesn't count

dodgehopper_ESO

Parmesan cheese, Blue cheese, Grilled Cheese Sandwich, Fondue, Cheddar, Camembert, Winsleydale, Gouda, Frommage, Relleno Chiles...

You make a point. Cheese is good.

WuffyCerulei

Cheese just generally the dps using the lover stone and penetration sets (penetration is often given by other people) and stuff like Slimeclaw (minor berserk given by healers via combat prayer). That is cheese.

laissezfaire

First, you have to understand cheese then you will know how one cheeses.

SirAndy

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

So, every since target dummies became a thing ive noticed people discussing this thing called "cheese". I've never really understood why it was called that.. but anyways..
Why is "cheese" bad? On a solo dps parse, why is it that any "cheese" is now indicative of DPS in a trial or dungeon? If I can pull 50k solo dps on a Target dummy with all kinds of cheese, how is it bad? Is it not indicative of the dps that you can do? Wouldn't cheese be indicative of how much your dps should be, if not even higher?
I'd love to know why a cheese parse isn't taken seriously.

Clearly, your epeen is not cheesy enough ...

DoctorESO

Cheese is a luxury food. Not sure how it came to be used as a negative cheating reference.

Oakmontowls_ESO

It's more a problem when people are using cheese parses and comparing them to normal parses. For example a guild might have a dps requirement to do trials with them so subpar dps might use cheese parses to reach these numbers.

Runefang

There are so many definitions of this though.

The main thing is that you do a dps test according to your guild's expectations. Some will have different expectations of levels of cheese. For my guild only Major Breach/Fracture is allowed, no Lover/Kra'ghs/TFS/Spinners etc.

Take all dps tests without a detailed combat metrics screenshot with a grain of salt though. The number of dps videos on YT including Zaan is stupid.

Kram8ion

Can a cheese build get cancer?

Emma_Overload

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Cheese just generally the dps using the lover stone and penetration sets (penetration is often given by other people) and stuff like Slimeclaw (minor berserk given by healers via combat prayer). That is cheese.

This is what I don't understand. Since the penetration and other buffs will be coming from other players in a real trial, it seems like you're just replicating trial conditions when you add those things to your dummy parse. If anything, your dummy parse will be LOWER than your trial parse, because you will be able to switch to Warrior mundus for the trial, while the missing penetration is provided by someone else.

Jarryzzt

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Parmesan cheese, Blue cheese, Grilled Cheese Sandwich, Fondue, Cheddar, Camembert, Winsleydale, Gouda, Frommage, Relleno Chiles...

You make a point. Cheese is good.

Salzburg cheese is my all-time favourite, of course. But how, how, how can you make a list of cheeses in good conscience and completely, utterly, absolutely, punctually fail to mention mozzarella? How, I ask you.

---

On topic. This is all so very, very different from the definitions of "cheese" I've seen in either tabletop or PVP...

...especially since there isn't really a standardized basis for DPS parses beyond what a particular guild might ask/require. And even then, without an Inspect function...

DoctorESO

Kram8ion wrote: »

Can a cheese build get cancer?

No. People take offense to using the term "cancer" in that manner.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

So, every since target dummies became a thing ive noticed people discussing this thing called "cheese". I've never really understood why it was called that.. but anyways..

Why is "cheese" bad? On a solo dps parse, why is it that any "cheese" is now indicative of DPS in a trial or dungeon? If I can pull 50k solo dps on a Target dummy with all kinds of cheese, how is it bad? Is it not indicative of the dps that you can do? Wouldn't cheese be indicative of how much your dps should be, if not even higher?

I'd love to know why a cheese parse isn't taken seriously.

Cheese is anything different from what the raid lead sets as a requirement for dps testing what sets can be used how much pen and what stone. I typically can stam in hundings vo with 14 into pen and warrior mundus stone. I expect 38k or higher with that setup now if it were cheesed it would basicly be like lying saying that you meet expectations. Raid leads will want a constant variable to compare you against others when making choices and don't want to have to do the math to figure out how much you increased your dps by adding in cheese sets and what not.

It's generally cool to cheese for anything else tho.

Asardes

I always test with my normal trial setup: CP, consumable, mundus, gear, since it's easy to estimate the increase due to buffs and debuffs available in groups. For example solo DPS increase ~logarithmically with penetration applied by others until the cap and linearly with Aggressive Horn up times. The only compromise I make is slotting Elemental Drain instead of shield on magicka characters since that also helps with sustain, but for stamina nothing changes.

Merlin13KAGL

It's a viable build in live situations or it's not. That simple.

Skele's don't hit back, so doing things like adding additional skills in place of a skill you would need live is another example (removing a shield/heal in favor of placing another damage ability), using sets that would give you buffs normally provided by your group (thus getting overridden).

If you're cherry picking a lucky parse (oddly high crit's, or status uptimes), it's another example (why the 6M is preferred over the 3M)

If you can take your build into a live setting and survive while still producing those numbers, more power to you.

If you can't take your 13k health, no heal, no shield, can't sustain for more than 30 seconds having self into that same setting, then you are likely cheesing the parse.

Danksta

Emma_Overload wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Cheese just generally the dps using the lover stone and penetration sets (penetration is often given by other people) and stuff like Slimeclaw (minor berserk given by healers via combat prayer). That is cheese.

This is what I don't understand. Since the penetration and other buffs will be coming from other players in a real trial, it seems like you're just replicating trial conditions when you add those things to your dummy parse. If anything, your dummy parse will be LOWER than your trial parse, because you will be able to switch to Warrior mundus for the trial, while the missing penetration is provided by someone else.

But why are you trying to replicate trial conditions ON A SOLO TEST?

SupremeRissole

In addition to what has already been used to define cheese, the reason serious guilds do not look at cheese parses because they are outside of standard conditions. If everyone posts a parse without cheese it puts all parses on a level playing field.
If you pull 50k cheese, it doesnt show me what you pull in comparison to others who dont cheese. It comes down to your guild dps conditions. E.g in one of my guilds my guild note is 43k whilst in another it's 38k. I dont go boasting to people I pull 43k, only in that guild under their conditions (ele drain, lightning wall provided) do I pull that.
As standard amongst the community, the dps that you can tell people you pull, is the one without cheese.

dodgehopper_ESO

Jarryzzt wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Parmesan cheese, Blue cheese, Grilled Cheese Sandwich, Fondue, Cheddar, Camembert, Winsleydale, Gouda, Frommage, Relleno Chiles...

You make a point. Cheese is good.

Salzburg cheese is my all-time favourite, of course. But how, how, how can you make a list of cheeses in good conscience and completely, utterly, absolutely, punctually fail to mention mozzarella? How, I ask you.

---

On topic. This is all so very, very different from the definitions of "cheese" I've seen in either tabletop or PVP...

...especially since there isn't really a standardized basis for DPS parses beyond what a particular guild might ask/require. And even then, without an Inspect function...

I was worried if I got comprehensive it might hit the text cap in which case I would still not be doing cheese justice.

Anotherone773

I consider parsing to be like theory crafting, overthinking something and trying to hard. Ive not "raided" in ESO, but i have in many mmos. And the whole parsing thing to me seems useful for checking some things but when it comes down to practical application, its kind of useless. I dont care what you can hit a dummy for. Anyone can hit a dummy when they dont have anything else happening.

I remember i had this one guy, in WoW i think it was...it was a game with cheesy graphics like Wow. He had terrible DPS. Like 50-60% of what his build should have. But i took him on raids. People would complain." Why dont we take someone with more DPS??". My reply" wait, and you will see." We get into the raid get through the first boss which is pretty easy, second boss not hard either, get to the third boss. This boss has to be int/cced often or its instant wipe game over. So my sub par dps guildie works his magic. He catches 95% of the interrupts by himself. Next boss comes up, again he catches almost every interrupt by himself. I go " that why he is in my raid groups"

I dont care if you can parse 200k on a dummy, i care if you can stay alive, apply enough dps for us to beat the enrage timer, and if you can do what needs to be done instead of being that guy thats so worried about how showing us how awesome at dpsing you are, you dont do any of the other required actions to help us succeed.


Also, in real combat when you have to dodge, block, run, kill random add, push button, res player, etc, etc. its more important on how you handle doing dps in that situation than how much you can throw down on a skeleton in the courtyard of your fancy house while you record you doing 100 parses until you get that perfect parse and post it and be like " yeah im elite!" Its literally like sending the guy that shoots at the "range" every saturday and can hit a flea on a ticks ass at 300 yds into combat and expecting him to be able to snipe just as well in a warzone in hostile territory with mortar shells exploding around him and bullets wizzing by his head.

When someone on here posts " i can parse 50k!" I think " Big deal, want a medal or a cookie?"

Runefang

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I consider parsing to be like theory crafting, overthinking something and trying to hard. Ive not "raided" in ESO, but i have in many mmos. And the whole parsing thing to me seems useful for checking some things but when it comes down to practical application, its kind of useless. I dont care what you can hit a dummy for. Anyone can hit a dummy when they dont have anything else happening.

I remember i had this one guy, in WoW i think it was...it was a game with cheesy graphics like Wow. He had terrible DPS. Like 50-60% of what his build should have. But i took him on raids. People would complain." Why dont we take someone with more DPS??". My reply" wait, and you will see." We get into the raid get through the first boss which is pretty easy, second boss not hard either, get to the third boss. This boss has to be int/cced often or its instant wipe game over. So my sub par dps guildie works his magic. He catches 95% of the interrupts by himself. Next boss comes up, again he catches almost every interrupt by himself. I go " that why he is in my raid groups"

I dont care if you can parse 200k on a dummy, i care if you can stay alive, apply enough dps for us to beat the enrage timer, and if you can do what needs to be done instead of being that guy thats so worried about how showing us how awesome at dpsing you are, you dont do any of the other required actions to help us succeed.


Also, in real combat when you have to dodge, block, run, kill random add, push button, res player, etc, etc. its more important on how you handle doing dps in that situation than how much you can throw down on a skeleton in the courtyard of your fancy house while you record you doing 100 parses until you get that perfect parse and post it and be like " yeah im elite!" Its literally like sending the guy that shoots at the "range" every saturday and can hit a flea on a ticks ass at 300 yds into combat and expecting him to be able to snipe just as well in a warzone in hostile territory with mortar shells exploding around him and bullets wizzing by his head.

When someone on here posts " i can parse 50k!" I think " Big deal, want a medal or a cookie?"

Well GL when the game gives you a dps check of 35k per DD while managing mechanics and your 'uber deals with mechanics team mate' only does 30k.

The whole 'i can at least stay live' argument is dumb.

Anotherone773

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I consider parsing to be like theory crafting, overthinking something and trying to hard. Ive not "raided" in ESO, but i have in many mmos. And the whole parsing thing to me seems useful for checking some things but when it comes down to practical application, its kind of useless. I dont care what you can hit a dummy for. Anyone can hit a dummy when they dont have anything else happening.

I remember i had this one guy, in WoW i think it was...it was a game with cheesy graphics like Wow. He had terrible DPS. Like 50-60% of what his build should have. But i took him on raids. People would complain." Why dont we take someone with more DPS??". My reply" wait, and you will see." We get into the raid get through the first boss which is pretty easy, second boss not hard either, get to the third boss. This boss has to be int/cced often or its instant wipe game over. So my sub par dps guildie works his magic. He catches 95% of the interrupts by himself. Next boss comes up, again he catches almost every interrupt by himself. I go " that why he is in my raid groups"

I dont care if you can parse 200k on a dummy, i care if you can stay alive, apply enough dps for us to beat the enrage timer, and if you can do what needs to be done instead of being that guy thats so worried about how showing us how awesome at dpsing you are, you dont do any of the other required actions to help us succeed.


Also, in real combat when you have to dodge, block, run, kill random add, push button, res player, etc, etc. its more important on how you handle doing dps in that situation than how much you can throw down on a skeleton in the courtyard of your fancy house while you record you doing 100 parses until you get that perfect parse and post it and be like " yeah im elite!" Its literally like sending the guy that shoots at the "range" every saturday and can hit a flea on a ticks ass at 300 yds into combat and expecting him to be able to snipe just as well in a warzone in hostile territory with mortar shells exploding around him and bullets wizzing by his head.

When someone on here posts " i can parse 50k!" I think " Big deal, want a medal or a cookie?"

Well GL when the game gives you a dps check of 35k per DD while managing mechanics and your 'uber deals with mechanics team mate' only does 30k.

The whole 'i can at least stay live' argument is dumb.

IKR because dead DPS can still pull 45k dps and you can totally self res on boss fights. Its not like anyone else has to stop to res you. amiright? I mean who cares if the extent of your usefulness is being able to pwn that target dummy in record time.

Basically like saying " i went to college for this for 4 years, so im an expert" When in fact most of that crap you learned in college isnt useful to me and you probably arent able to apply it to a real world situation. In that respect ill take someone with hands on experience any day over someone that learned it out of a book but on paper has far more knowledge. FYI, target skeleton is basically (on) paper DPS. You might be able to pull 45k on a dummy, but when applied in a dungeon with a bunch of distractions that might drop to 10 or 15k or you might die often and provide zero dps. Whereas that guy pulling 30k on a dummy might only drop to 25k in a dungeon and never die.

And thus skeletons are useless for determining a person's usefulness in a combat setting.

SupremeRissole

Runefang wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I consider parsing to be like theory crafting, overthinking something and trying to hard. Ive not "raided" in ESO, but i have in many mmos. And the whole parsing thing to me seems useful for checking some things but when it comes down to practical application, its kind of useless. I dont care what you can hit a dummy for. Anyone can hit a dummy when they dont have anything else happening.

I remember i had this one guy, in WoW i think it was...it was a game with cheesy graphics like Wow. He had terrible DPS. Like 50-60% of what his build should have. But i took him on raids. People would complain." Why dont we take someone with more DPS??". My reply" wait, and you will see." We get into the raid get through the first boss which is pretty easy, second boss not hard either, get to the third boss. This boss has to be int/cced often or its instant wipe game over. So my sub par dps guildie works his magic. He catches 95% of the interrupts by himself. Next boss comes up, again he catches almost every interrupt by himself. I go " that why he is in my raid groups"

I dont care if you can parse 200k on a dummy, i care if you can stay alive, apply enough dps for us to beat the enrage timer, and if you can do what needs to be done instead of being that guy thats so worried about how showing us how awesome at dpsing you are, you dont do any of the other required actions to help us succeed.


Also, in real combat when you have to dodge, block, run, kill random add, push button, res player, etc, etc. its more important on how you handle doing dps in that situation than how much you can throw down on a skeleton in the courtyard of your fancy house while you record you doing 100 parses until you get that perfect parse and post it and be like " yeah im elite!" Its literally like sending the guy that shoots at the "range" every saturday and can hit a flea on a ticks ass at 300 yds into combat and expecting him to be able to snipe just as well in a warzone in hostile territory with mortar shells exploding around him and bullets wizzing by his head.

When someone on here posts " i can parse 50k!" I think " Big deal, want a medal or a cookie?"

Well GL when the game gives you a dps check of 35k per DD while managing mechanics and your 'uber deals with mechanics team mate' only does 30k.

The whole 'i can at least stay live' argument is dumb.

Agreed, usually the people who say 'dps tests mean nothing' or 'target dummies dont fight back' are also coincidentally the same people who cant pull over 25k and havent seen harder raids. Ahigh dps parse reflects a lot of time behind a dummy, which yes, doesnt mean they can survive (dlc dungeons without a healer are a good test for this) but this means that when you throw mechanics and incoming damage at that player, you know they will be able to instinctively perform that rotation when **** hits the fan.

Certain fights (vAA last boss, vHRC HM last boss, all of vMoL, triplets in vHoF) simply being able to survive isn't going to cut it. If the group doesnt have the dps, they wipe.