Balance for Block-casting, and Soft CCs at all?

ak_pvp

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Perma-blocking is the act of damaging someone while you're blocking and can also be when you're healing. The issue mainly if not always occurs with the Magicka class since they rely on Magicka to deal damage/heal rather than stamina.
......
Summary: Add some real counters to Perma-blocking for example halving the damage/healing done while blocking (not affecting healing received from other players and healing given to other players.) and adding soft cc immunity after 2 have been placed on you.

What you are talking about here is blockcasting, not permablocking. Permablocking is using various setups and skills to enable blocking for looooong periods of time (see: magDK using helping hands, battle roar, and sword and board ult to consistently maintain block for effectively endless fights).

With the recent block cost calculation change, I haven't seen nearly full-permablock builds, though it's probably still possible.

Blockcasting is a bit silly, but is more or less necessary at this point. This the sheer amount of CC thrown around in this game, disabling blockcasting would make outnumbered play even rougher.

To permablock at max limit (charged every 0.25s) with all study+glyphs you would need 3k equivalent regen. No base stam regen counted, and no CC breaking, bashing or stamina abilities. Against one opponent, provided not using bloodthirst or jabs, about 750, assuming one hit every second, no Bloodthorn 264, and constitution 5/1/1, 216, battle roar around 300± effective stam, and helping hands (every 7s with foss, igneous is too costly) 282. so all in all 1062 stam regen. (bloodspawn, ult use and helping hands use will change this)

In a 1v1 permablock is quite possible, with CCs it becomes very straining, but with a few well timed heavy attacks, it can be fine.

DeadlyRecluse

ak_pvp wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Perma-blocking is the act of damaging someone while you're blocking and can also be when you're healing. The issue mainly if not always occurs with the Magicka class since they rely on Magicka to deal damage/heal rather than stamina.
......
Summary: Add some real counters to Perma-blocking for example halving the damage/healing done while blocking (not affecting healing received from other players and healing given to other players.) and adding soft cc immunity after 2 have been placed on you.

What you are talking about here is blockcasting, not permablocking. Permablocking is using various setups and skills to enable blocking for looooong periods of time (see: magDK using helping hands, battle roar, and sword and board ult to consistently maintain block for effectively endless fights).

With the recent block cost calculation change, I haven't seen nearly full-permablock builds, though it's probably still possible.

Blockcasting is a bit silly, but is more or less necessary at this point. This the sheer amount of CC thrown around in this game, disabling blockcasting would make outnumbered play even rougher.

To permablock at max limit (charged every 0.25s) with all study+glyphs you would need 3k equivalent regen. No base stam regen counted, and no CC breaking, bashing or stamina abilities. Against one opponent, provided not using bloodthirst or jabs, about 750, assuming one hit every second, no Bloodthorn 264, and constitution 5/1/1, 216, battle roar around 300± effective stam, and helping hands (every 7s with foss, igneous is too costly) 282. so all in all 1062 stam regen. (bloodspawn, ult use and helping hands use will change this)

In a 1v1 permablock is quite possible, with CCs it becomes very straining, but with a few well timed heavy attacks, it can be fine.

Exactly--it sure isn't what it used to be. I'd argue that permablock with well-timed heavies isn't permablock at all. It's lotsa-blocking, sure, but it isn't the literal permablock that was enabled prior to the glyph reduction calculation changing+the change to .25 second block cost.

It gets a little easier if you allow sword and board ult+bloodspawn into the equation.

Ragnarock41

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Perma-blocking is the act of damaging someone while you're blocking and can also be when you're healing. The issue mainly if not always occurs with the Magicka class since they rely on Magicka to deal damage/heal rather than stamina.
......
Summary: Add some real counters to Perma-blocking for example halving the damage/healing done while blocking (not affecting healing received from other players and healing given to other players.) and adding soft cc immunity after 2 have been placed on you.

What you are talking about here is blockcasting, not permablocking. Permablocking is using various setups and skills to enable blocking for looooong periods of time (see: magDK using helping hands, battle roar, and sword and board ult to consistently maintain block for effectively endless fights).

With the recent block cost calculation change, I haven't seen nearly full-permablock builds, though it's probably still possible.

Blockcasting is a bit silly, but is more or less necessary at this point. This the sheer amount of CC thrown around in this game, disabling blockcasting would make outnumbered play even rougher.

To permablock at max limit (charged every 0.25s) with all study+glyphs you would need 3k equivalent regen. No base stam regen counted, and no CC breaking, bashing or stamina abilities. Against one opponent, provided not using bloodthirst or jabs, about 750, assuming one hit every second, no Bloodthorn 264, and constitution 5/1/1, 216, battle roar around 300± effective stam, and helping hands (every 7s with foss, igneous is too costly) 282. so all in all 1062 stam regen. (bloodspawn, ult use and helping hands use will change this)

In a 1v1 permablock is quite possible, with CCs it becomes very straining, but with a few well timed heavy attacks, it can be fine.

Exactly--it sure isn't what it used to be. I'd argue that permablock with well-timed heavies isn't permablock at all. It's lotsa-blocking, sure, but it isn't the literal permablock that was enabled prior to the glyph reduction calculation changing+the change to .25 second block cost.

It gets a little easier if you allow sword and board ult+bloodspawn into the equation.

these kind of builds get ROFLstomped by bleeds, which is very popular amongst stamplars, stamsorcs, and even stamblades nowadays.

I really find it hard to believe how people are having trouble against permablockers nowadays.

Even my stamDk has the tools neccessary to deal with a magDK. fossilize, claws, noxious, axe bleed, rearming trap... dead magDk most of the time. mDK really lost a lot of power after the power whip went dodgeable. denying them the proc is just too big of an advantage, and I'm not even mentioning how forward momentum makes you laugh at talons.

PS: Oh, and also, if the guy is heavy attacking a lot, it isn't really permablocking, as you said.

MaxwellC

@DeadlyRecluse
Yeah I simply thought 'perma'blocking was near the same thing my bad there.

So far my PvP experience has gotten me to literally run away from every person using a shield because it's just the same thing; Block cast and stun with hard/soft cc.
The only classes that I see doing it is Mag/Stam DK and Mag/Stam templar; This thread is really about how fed up I am with what I deemed to be unskilled/cheesy gameplay.

@Ragnarock41
Not quite this has always been a thing because ZOS made a lot of bad changes to the DK class in general e.g. removal of dynamic ulti which was the main staple of the DK class as it helped them with what the class identified with i.e "Stand your ground".
The recent Stam changes was the stupidest thing and anyone can check I was on the front lines arguing that we needed not 5% but 10% on return or if anything, reduce the cost of obsidian shield/igneous weapons morph.

People in the thread do not like what I've got to say and some cases their responses tell me they have never dealt with someone who just simply block-cast heal/damage and that is fine; I just wish they fight someone like that.

PvP is getting full of those types of builds and it just seriously infuriates me that I fight a few battles and win but when I'm trying to help my faction out a stupid block-casting build comes along and decides to ruin my fun because their is no balance against this and that's why I think ZOS needs to fix this issue.

rimmidimdim

Skills cast while blocking should cost 50% more. 25%more? Something like that. Block casting is silly and should be reworked somehow, this is a reasonable suggestion.

Or, make block ( only in PvP, not pve) have a cost increase like roll dodging. If you time your block well you get rewarded huge, if you stand there and hold block you die like a tard you are.

Again all this is only pvp, battle spirit only. Cheers.

Ragnarock41

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Skills cast while blocking should cost 50% more. 25%more? Something like that. Block casting is silly and should be reworked somehow, this is a reasonable suggestion.

Or, make block ( only in PvP, not pve) have a cost increase like roll dodging. If you time your block well you get rewarded huge, if you stand there and hold block you die like a tard you are.

Again all this is only pvp, battle spirit only. Cheers.

sure, lets ruin stamDK even more, in the name of ''combat balance''.

I'm sure I would love having 3900 stamina cost on my heroic slash man, amazing suggestion, thank you very much.

rimmidimdim

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Skills cast while blocking should cost 50% more. 25%more? Something like that. Block casting is silly and should be reworked somehow, this is a reasonable suggestion.

Or, make block ( only in PvP, not pve) have a cost increase like roll dodging. If you time your block well you get rewarded huge, if you stand there and hold block you die like a tard you are.

Again all this is only pvp, battle spirit only. Cheers.

sure, lets ruin stamDK even more, in the name of ''combat balance''.

I'm sure I would love having 3900 stamina cost on my heroic slash man, amazing suggestion, thank you very much.

Your welcome, I actually think they are decent suggestions too. However I'm not sure which one you like. Maybe you like both? But I did not want to suggest that both should be implemented, just one or the other.

IZZEFlameLash

Yes, let's delete DKs. Because they sure did not suffer through nerf after nerf with unsustainable skill costs that require specific setup to be affordable with almost 0 variety. Hey, on second thought, why not make the game all DPS fest with 0 heals also? Heal gets in the way of killing. And give me instagib set too where I have 50% chance to instagib everyone.

CatchMeTrolling

No one perma blocks unless they’re a tank, block casting sure. But that isn’t exclusive to mag users and even if it was stam users have things that’s exclusive to them or more prevalent for them. Can’t really talk about dealing damage while mitigating or healing when every stam user can actively do that. Nor can we act as if stam builds don’t block cast vigor.

If we’re being honest here stam users have more defensive tools at their disposal than mag users, and the big difference is stam can get away with being offensive at the same time more than mag.

MaxwellC

@CatchMeTrolling
I simply do not agree on that notion but I do respect you since I've fought you a lot in Cyrodiil way back then.

I should change perma block as I was informed that isn't the right lingo but rather block casting.
I will agree even I block cast vigor usually because I do a roll dodge (bow is on back bar so I block/roll with vigor going to heal/ get away).
Defensive tools wise I can't really agree, stamina and magicka have equal defensive tools but magicka doesn't have to rely on stamina being dipped into when blocking so magicka has +1 on that spectrum.

Getting away also depends on the character as if it's a Mag DK/Magplar and their stam variants that is extremely difficult thanks to both classes having abilities the aide slowing down the enemy e.g templar circle/light ball thing (provides speed debuff) and DKs passives that slow you down when hit with ardent flame abilities. This is not to mention other non class locked skills.

My issue as I stated before is that during fights, I cannot seem to break someone who block casts and maybe that's an L2P issue as I frequently leave this game due to how pathetic the servers are/always have been. You can be a high damaging build and use a block cast build and that also goes with healers (especially ones using earthgore).

So conclusion to this thread is that I will just keep evading block casting builds and some may disagree with the way I suggested to fix these issues which I agree I can't say without a doubt that I know all there is about the game with statistics,etc.

caeliusstarbreaker

Every class has ways to counter blocking, as well as weapon abilities to deal with this. If you refuse to implement them... that’s your problem.

Added: mind you I mean no disrespect in the way that was phrased. It’s just straight forward.

CatchMeTrolling

MaxwellC wrote: »

@CatchMeTrolling
I simply do not agree on that notion but I do respect you since I've fought you a lot in Cyrodiil way back then.

I should change perma block as I was informed that isn't the right lingo but rather block casting.
I will agree even I block cast vigor usually because I do a roll dodge (bow is on back bar so I block/roll with vigor going to heal/ get away).
Defensive tools wise I can't really agree, stamina and magicka have equal defensive tools but magicka doesn't have to rely on stamina being dipped into when blocking so magicka has +1 on that spectrum.

Getting away also depends on the character as if it's a Mag DK/Magplar and their stam variants that is extremely difficult thanks to both classes having abilities the aide slowing down the enemy e.g templar circle/light ball thing (provides speed debuff) and DKs passives that slow you down when hit with ardent flame abilities. This is not to mention other non class locked skills.

My issue as I stated before is that during fights, I cannot seem to break someone who block casts and maybe that's an L2P issue as I frequently leave this game due to how pathetic the servers are/always have been. You can be a high damaging build and use a block cast build and that also goes with healers (especially ones using earthgore).

So conclusion to this thread is that I will just keep evading block casting builds and some may disagree with the way I suggested to fix these issues which I agree I can't say without a doubt that I know all there is about the game with statistics,etc.

The thing about magic users having that extra stam , it’s mostly to break free and even if they’re actively block casting with what 15-16 stam hitting them burns stam and so does ccs and possibly rooting them. Classes like Templar needs to block cast because if you’re not in heavy or you’re wearing light with no shields you’ll get instagib by anyone who knows what they’re doing.

Magic has limited blocking and possibly shields and utility sets but that’s not necessarily exclusive because high damage equals defense in this game too. Might not double dip but you’re one cc away from death with no stam (not to mention stam gets to heavy attack mid combat without it messing up your rotation) Dodge rolling is meh and burning too much stam also equals death unless you have something like earthgore.

Plus the classes you mentioned have no mobility whatsoever at least the Magicka variations, worst mobility in the game. Also stam blocks, dodge roll , shuffle , have access to stam shields now, block cast vigor and avoid damage using mobility. The kings of being able to face tank and deal high damage at the same time with over 4K weapon damage.

Can use bleeds, poisons, defile and spam ccs against people who just hold block or do what I do and walk away if they’re not looking for a fight.

leepalmer95

There have been some stupid threads on this forum lately.

Purdomination33

Is this really a problem because the Cyrodiil I play in every night says otherwise.

It boggles my mind that people say blocking and defile are "op" or whatever. The only thing that is out of control in Cyrodiil (well besides ridiculous Wardens) is HEALING. Of every kind. Oh you getting mobbed on by 5 players, no worries just hit the magic heal back to full health buttom...rinse and repeat.

Pijng

Purdomination33 wrote: »

Is this really a problem because the Cyrodiil I play in every night says otherwise.

It boggles my mind that people say blocking and defile are "op" or whatever. The only thing that is out of control in Cyrodiil (well besides ridiculous Wardens) is HEALING. Of every kind. Oh you getting mobbed on by 5 players, no worries just hit the magic heal back to full health buttom...rinse and repeat.

And here we have another "out-of-control" thing to deal with such builds – cost poisons c:
Also ye, durok's bane will do the job against 'em.

CatchMeTrolling

Purdomination33 wrote: »

Is this really a problem because the Cyrodiil I play in every night says otherwise.

It boggles my mind that people say blocking and defile are "op" or whatever. The only thing that is out of control in Cyrodiil (well besides ridiculous Wardens) is HEALING. Of every kind. Oh you getting mobbed on by 5 players, no worries just hit the magic heal back to full health buttom...rinse and repeat.

Defile is stronger than healing, especially coming from multiple sources.

ak_pvp

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Purdomination33 wrote: »

Is this really a problem because the Cyrodiil I play in every night says otherwise.

It boggles my mind that people say blocking and defile are "op" or whatever. The only thing that is out of control in Cyrodiil (well besides ridiculous Wardens) is HEALING. Of every kind. Oh you getting mobbed on by 5 players, no worries just hit the magic heal back to full health buttom...rinse and repeat.

Defile is stronger than healing, especially coming from multiple sources.

Agree. Defile is an Xv1 debuff. It won't do anything to a group stacking heals. But can reduce a single targets heals by a half.

MaxwellC

@leepalmer95
If you've got nothing of value to add to my 'stupid' thread then please don't even comment.

DeadlyRecluse

One thing to note is that even if blockcasting were undesirable behaviour (and it IS a little silly, regardless of whether or not it's balanced), is that any fix needs to take lag into account.

When I'm lagging bad, dropping or popping block often has a signficant delay. Sometimes I'll be locked into block until I dodgeroll or bump sprint.

If you make blockcasting impossible, but prioritize block over casting, you make it so that any block build is effectively self-silencing. That's obviously unworkable. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for increased cost or decreased damage while blockcasting.

If you make it so casting has priority over blocking, but drops block for a very brief period of time, that could work--but might be a nightmare in certain PvE situations. I'm thinking vAA axes, but I'm not enough of a PvE player to really consider all nuances (and I'd be opposed to this change in PvP, too).

MaxwellC

@DeadlyRecluse
I hear ya on that, like I said I'm not entirely sure what to do but this kind of play is incredibly annoying and me calling for balance against it is just my personal preference about the ordeal in general.
Some players have voiced their disagreement albeit civilized (and I appreciate that) but it's just something I can't wrap my mind about how to overcome.

The only other possible solution would be to make a stamina hard cc available to all classes that have a magicka hard cc.
That would mean nightblades would have a stamina version of fear, DragonKnights would have a stamina version of fossilize, and sorcs would have a stam version of the prison thing.

Amdar_Godkiller

The problem is the cooldown on roll dodge combined with the nerfs to major evasion and sustain have made medium armor's defensive capabilities laughable compared to heavy and light. Block-cast nerfs aren't needed, medium armor just needs massive defensive buffs and some slight offensive buffs as well.

The fix is simple, blocking shouldn't stop regen in medium armor, it should merely cut it in half, and medium armor should give 2% dodge chance passively per piece of MA slotted. Also, we need some better medium armor sets and shuffle needs to be given a purge morph.

Heavy armor gives you the ability to mitigate > 80% of damage by simply blocking

Light armor allows you to mitigate 100% of damage and 100% of crits by casting a low cost spammable damage shield.

In medium armor, you can realistically roll dodge once to avoid an attack every 4 seconds, and you have a 15% chance of not taking damage on other attacks. That's 15% armor mitigation (12K resistances), 21% roll dodge mitigation (85%unmitigated x 25% of the time roll dodging), and 9.6% dodge chance mitigation (64% unmitigated x 15% dodge chance), giving a total of ~46% mitigation at a cost that's roughly triple that of light and heavy mitigation. If you block at all you can add to the cost whatever your lost stam recovery would have been plus 1500 for the block cost, and blocking will help you less than it will a HA or LA users.

DeadlyRecluse

MaxwellC wrote: »

The only other possible solution would be to make a stamina hard cc available to all classes that have a magicka hard cc.
That would mean nightblades would have a stamina version of fear, DragonKnights would have a stamina version of fossilize, and sorcs would have a stam version of the prison thing.

I mean, all of those classes have CC that goes through block...it's really templars and wardens that could use a boost to their CC kits.

And in all those cases, it's really better for stamina builds to use magicka CCs. There's no meaningful damage component attached to them, so it's better for stam builds to have them cost their off-resource rather than have them cost main resource to no benefit.

MaxwellC

@DeadlyRecluse
I can't agree with templar or warden having it due to their high healing rates more so on the magicka for templar and the stamina for warden.
The costs for hard CCs are pretty terrible at-least from a DK perspective ranging from 3300 to 3500 (forgot the exact value). The Hard cc component does indeed add a strong amount of damage to the one CC'd as it procs the CP exploiter and drops their defenses entirely, until they break free.

The primary issue with my other solution would be that it would add even more Hard CCs into the mix as Stamina players can't use them consistently due to their high costs; In the same respect they couldn't use it consistently if it costed them their main resource as well, because they wouldn't be have access to core survival functions i.e roll dodge, sprint, and block. Alongside being able to heal with vigor/rally or be able to keep pressure up if they're stamina was depleted/near depletion due to spamming Hard Ccs.

All in all it's a pretty hard concept to figure out.

DeadlyRecluse

MaxwellC wrote: »

The Hard cc component does indeed add a strong amount of damage to the one CC'd as it procs the CP exploiter and drops their defenses entirely, until they break free.

It ADDS damage, but it doesn't DO damage itself. If the skill itself did damage, then yeah, you'd want a stamina morph (see templar javelin--in theory, stamplars could use magicka javelin in order to save stamina, but it's better there to get a nice 2-6k damage chunk rather than save some resource and tickle your opponent). The damage you gain from fossilize is really damage from other skills, so it matters way less which resource it "scales" from.

As long as you aren't spamming the skill, but actually using it as your opponent's cooldown expires, it should be super easy to keep it up consistently with magicka on a stam toon, especially if you run a few triglyphs or trifood.

The only time, imo, your magicka is really pressured on a stamina DK is if you decide you want to slot wings or spam talons. Then you'll go OOM quickly. But if you are just buffing and CCing on magicka, it should be completely maintainable. Keeping your stam up, especially while blocking frequently, is much more challenging.

Stamblades are a little trickier, as they might want to save more of their magicka pool for cloak.

Domander

Help help zos, everyone isn't dieing to my combo because they blocked it. I dont want to need to run one of the many many many things that go through block now because reasons.

Help help zos, I keep getting rooted and don't have the sustain to dodge roll out of it because I put everything into damage so I can burst players down with as little counter play as possible.

If either of these were truely unbalanced then everyone would need to do it or be really disadvantaged, that's not how it is...so I think that's the only counter argument needed. They also just did a balance adjustment on block cost.

leepalmer95

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Purdomination33 wrote: »

Is this really a problem because the Cyrodiil I play in every night says otherwise.

It boggles my mind that people say blocking and defile are "op" or whatever. The only thing that is out of control in Cyrodiil (well besides ridiculous Wardens) is HEALING. Of every kind. Oh you getting mobbed on by 5 players, no worries just hit the magic heal back to full health buttom...rinse and repeat.

Defile is stronger than healing, especially coming from multiple sources.

Not to magplar / healers who usually just purge it off.

Which is ironic that the counter to the healbots is too defile them and they can just remove it anyway.

Domander

leepalmer95 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Purdomination33 wrote: »

Is this really a problem because the Cyrodiil I play in every night says otherwise.

It boggles my mind that people say blocking and defile are "op" or whatever. The only thing that is out of control in Cyrodiil (well besides ridiculous Wardens) is HEALING. Of every kind. Oh you getting mobbed on by 5 players, no worries just hit the magic heal back to full health buttom...rinse and repeat.

Defile is stronger than healing, especially coming from multiple sources.

Not to magplar / healers who usually just purge it off.

Which is ironic that the counter to the healbots is too defile them and they can just remove it anyway.

There are also a lot more ways to increase your healing, there are 2 defile debuffs and the only way to make them better is with champion points.

CatchMeTrolling

leepalmer95 wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Purdomination33 wrote: »

Is this really a problem because the Cyrodiil I play in every night says otherwise.

It boggles my mind that people say blocking and defile are "op" or whatever. The only thing that is out of control in Cyrodiil (well besides ridiculous Wardens) is HEALING. Of every kind. Oh you getting mobbed on by 5 players, no worries just hit the magic heal back to full health buttom...rinse and repeat.

Defile is stronger than healing, especially coming from multiple sources.

Not to magplar / healers who usually just purge it off.

Which is ironic that the counter to the healbots is too defile them and they can just remove it anyway.

Do you realize how much purge cost without considering cost increase poisons & plus the cost of bol? You’re confusing healing combined with mitigation which isn’t exclusive to Templar, let’s see how long that LIGHT armored healbot last with decent dps, defile and ccs. I’ll tell you, seconds...because they lack mitigation.

Someone that’s just built to take damage and heal or give utility will be a nuisance because they only fill one role, so let’s not leave out high sustain. A magplar built for dps can not spam purge, unless you want to end up with no resources. Purge also doesn’t have a priority when it comes to what needs to be removed and I think we all know how many negative effects can be put on you within secs just from one player.

They purge, reapply just like that. That’s if you can even “purge” it with all the sets giving you 100 percent uptime to defile. With just corrupting pollen I could half your healing by 40 percent just to throw out a number then have a set like duroks, fassalla or crest of cyrodiil on that will make purging useless. If that’s not enough they stack , not just from you but from other people too. So good luck handling multiple.

Smithernest54

ZOS and everybody should watch this video and tell me honestly do you block casting should be a thing. ESO is on a time limit before it is an echo chamber. Everyone I know who does not want to block cast the game are looking for other games to play. Black Desert Online is coming to Xbox, PlayStation, and switch this summer. If ZOS do not take action on block casting they are going to see a massive dropout in pvp and subscribers. Lastly all of you who shamelessly defend block casting and are convinced that you are a “skilled pvp healer” by block casting, you can enjoy your 10 to half an hour fights against other block casters. However, when that happens you are got to want nerfs and change hopefully on block casting, but I can see you wanting nerfs on other classes. In consequence you or other classes are going to quit the game further destroying eso. In the end, enjoy your echo chamber servers.

https://youtu.be/TJy4p2kRIFY

Smithernest54

Block casting is actually a lack of skill and critical thinking.