The PvE Debate between Base Damage and Resource Recovery

ArchMikem

In almost every single end-game PvE build I've come across, mainly Stamina builds the same thing is shared between them all. Nothing is spent in upping the build's Recovery. It sits anywhere between 500 and 900 at most, because the build opts to spend as much as it can getting that Weapon Damage number as high as it can, which is usually between 4,500 and 5,500 fully buffed.

Having an insanely high Damage number is great and all but with such low recovery and Stamina Heavy Attacks not refunding much either the build feels flawed. I understand that the Dragon Bones Update is bringing us increased Heavy Attack resource restore, (to which I'd like to ask you PC players the details behind that), however through my experience with my StamDK which I've tried playing as a Heavy Attack weaving build, having only 900 Stam Recovery makes prolonged fights very difficult, and the sustain granted from casting Ultimates happen few and far between from how long it takes to work up the 150 for Dawnbreaker or 250 for Standard. It keeps making me go back to considering switching to the Serpent to get that number up to at least 1,200 or 1,400.

For me, winning a battle doesn't mean having the highest damage output I can get. Most wipes come from a depleted Resource bar, unable to cast Vigor, panicking and then being swatted down. (Really, without using Bloodthirst, I have to constantly cast Vigor, which makes me wonder why Alcast Builds always forego a self heal..) Even if my damage is neutered, if I go into a fight knowing I can keep my Stamina bar from depleting then I know I can win, even if it takes longer due to lower dps.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. For me

This is the biggest thing in your long post. For you. The people who run no regen pull the biggest numbers and can sustain just fine.

ArchMikem

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. For me

This is the biggest thing in your long post. For you. The people who run no regen pull the biggest numbers and can sustain just fine.

The needed answer is how. Thousands of drain stamina poisons? A friend throwing them shards?

Runefang

They drink pots and use heavies.

Sixty5

I'll preface this by saying that I am not gods gift to DPS, and that I pull numbers that are adequate at best.

Sustain in fights is about finding a place that you feel comfortable with and sticking with it. The Stam Sorc that I run has fairly minimal investment into stam recovery, but I find that I can sustain a rotation pretty easily solo, and in a group, I am over sustaining with access to shards and such.

Here is an example of a parse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqsf5D2SKJE

I am getting my sustain from, Heavy attacks, potions, recovery from Stormfist, and further boosts from being a Bosmer, alongside champion points and Daedric Summoning passives.

If you aren't already, I'd highly recommend crafted potions. You are getting about 20% more stamina from them straight up from chugging them, along with 100% uptime on Major Endurance if you have the medicinal use passive.

Race is also a pretty big factor. Redguard is probably the best bet if you are running no sustain on your gear, but if you are running anything more than 750 base recovery (AKA 1 recovery enchant/Gear Piece or even Dubious food) then Bosmer is going to be equal or better.

ValkynSketha

Don't block cancel and don't recast appilities early, do 2-3 heavy attacks per rotation and you will be fine.

IZZEFlameLash

They do incorporate fully charged heavy attacks in the rotation on the mainbar. That is how they sustain just fine and stamina skills in general cost lesser than their magicka counterparts. This is probably the result of: 1. Full damage build = high dps = better scores. 2. Some of mechanics are just downright stupid so higher the dps, less you have to deal with those said mechanics. Low regen builds are doable as long as you manage your resources carefully.

WatchYourSixx

Stam DK should have no issues with resources as you should be doing 4-5 heavy attacks on the front bar. Your biggest "drain" would be your back bar, but that's only 6k stamina total. I've never went below 60% stamina on my DK and I don't have any sustain whatsoever.

Stamblade benefits from leeching strikes, and usually can manage all light attacks for a solid minute before having to weave in a couple of heavy attacks. Though it's still very easy to sustain with only 700 base recovery as long as you add in heavy attacks when you are low on Stam.

Maulkin

You said in your long post that heavy attacks don’t refund much. That’s flawed. Any stam PvE DPS build invests heavily on the CP passive that increases resources returned by heavies. I’ve got a whopping 75 points in it. You get a very sweet return from heavies.

Between the heavies, pots on cooldown and bubble/spearshard synergies. You should not have much problem. Especially as a DK.

Finally some classes slot a sustain skill in trials or maelstrom, except DKs who lean on Battle Roar. NBs use Leeching Strikes, Templars use Repentance and Sorcs use Dark Conversion.

Nox_Noir

Stop spamming vigor and get a proper healer

Tho I get where you're comming from. It's absurd that speccing into sustain hardly ever pays off in end-game, even after the massive morrowind sustain nerfs. I think maybe some of the numbers just need a rebalancing. It's hardly worth sacrificing 174 weapon damage for 169 recovery, but maybe if they upped the latter to 300 people would think twice. The numbers just aren't very appealing.
But also light attacks are still simply too weak compared to heavies. The whole unique idea of heavy attacks restoring resource instead of costing in this game is really weird and flawed IMO. If your heavy attack rotation is doing nearly the same dps as light attack rotation, while simultaneously restoring resources, the choice is pretty clear. Especially on classes like sorc and DK that have HA amplifiers.
The only acknowledgements for regen spec i see regularly is stormfist on a stamsorc, because the tradeoff there isnt as bad, the proc deals above average dps and can trigger some extra deeps from shock implosion passive, which partially make up for the dps loss of giving up a damage increasing set bonus from other set like velidreth. Or some people like to use dubious throne on stamblade too, seems to be a worthwhile tradeoff there.

xiZeroPointix

90% of the pve builds they post use Vicious Ophidian. Which reduces the cost of all stamina abilities by 8% and returns 2150 stamina on kill and will proc of any enemy that dies by you or anyone around you. For sustained boss fights where kills are not happening, they use essence of weapon power potions that give major endurance for 47sec with a potion cooldown of 45sec ( medicinal use passive in the alchemy skill line). This essentially gives 20% stam recovery 100% of the time if you drink them off of cool down and 2 to 3 heavy attacks per rotation is more than enough sustain..also most are Redguard race which is standard stam meta.

JobooAGS

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'll preface this by saying that I am not gods gift to DPS, and that I pull numbers that are adequate at best.

Sustain in fights is about finding a place that you feel comfortable with and sticking with it. The Stam Sorc that I run has fairly minimal investment into stam recovery, but I find that I can sustain a rotation pretty easily solo, and in a group, I am over sustaining with access to shards and such.

Here is an example of a parse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqsf5D2SKJE

I am getting my sustain from, Heavy attacks, potions, recovery from Stormfist, and further boosts from being a Bosmer, alongside champion points and Daedric Summoning passives.

If you aren't already, I'd highly recommend crafted potions. You are getting about 20% more stamina from them straight up from chugging them, along with 100% uptime on Major Endurance if you have the medicinal use passive.

Race is also a pretty big factor. Redguard is probably the best bet if you are running no sustain on your gear, but if you are running anything more than 750 base recovery (AKA 1 recovery enchant/Gear Piece or even Dubious food) then Bosmer is going to be equal or better.

The stam regen difference between bosmer and redguard would have to be more than 317 regen (792/5*2) for bosmer to be better than redguard. With a stam regen difference without adreniline rush of 12%, you would need your regen to be massive to overtake redguard

idk

Runefang wrote: »

They drink pots and use heavies.

This would be the answer.

These guys spend much time tweaking their build to get that little bit of extra damage out of their character. Yes, they have to do HA in their rotation but overall they do more damage than if they stacked regen.

DemonDruaga

Those builds are for situations where you as a damage dealer won't need to spam your own heals to survive.
If you try to solo stuff or are running with bad/ no healers, then obviously those builds aren't what you are looking for.

For everything else a proper executet heavy attack rotation should always keep up your stamina bar.

Ragnarock41

buffing regen glyphs to 200'ish would be a start, atm speccing into regen is really a waste, even in PvP I rarely put regen glyphs on my jewelry. the only form of regen I get is from dubious and bone pirate.

And in PvE I use neither of these two things.

ZOS tried to make sustain important, but the result they get is just a boring game.

Heavy attack. heavy attack, drink a potion... heavy attack again... zzz...

f047ys3v3n

The builds that have no recovery and do only full heavies and DOTs have both the least resource problems (they have a full heavy between every cast after all) and very close to the most damage (yea, a few lights does add a little.) Older style builds that try to weave in a lot of spamable skills with light attacks and add a some recovery (to try to cast like the old days) do less damage and run low on resources because you simply cannot add enough recovery to help much as you are talking about skills costing more than 20% more and you having more than 10% less base recovery.

I could also add that heavy / dot builds are much easier to manage. Try to run a multi-proc spectral bow mNB build and you will understand that difference.

My thought for you is that I think your confusing solo play in something like vMA (where you have to heal yourself and might add a little recovery) with a raid. Where, unless your a sorc or mNB and have that passively you are unlikely to do any self heals as it costs a bar slot and is also resource inefficient. I know you want the game to be dynamic with lots of skill casting but it is not anymore. Hold you left key down with one hand and try not to cramp up.