We still cannot counter ball groups from range

Jawasa

better players that group up and build with there group in mind will allways other players that dont work as a team.

Rianai

If you somehow (how?) "kill" ball group strategy, who is then going to deal with those huge zergs? Or are those zergs supposed to replace them as unity that is "invincible and kills everything in the way"? Doesn't seem very desireable to me ...

techprince

Jawasa wrote: »

better players that group up and build with there group in mind will allways other players that dont work as a team.

Show me a single group having team composition, killing competent ball groups from range.

Rianai wrote: »

If you somehow (how?) "kill" ball group strategy, who is then going to deal with those huge zergs? Or are those zergs supposed to replace them as unity that is "invincible and kills everything in the way"? Doesn't seem very desireable to me ...

Play like every normal group plays? use siege weapons? use ground aoes? focus their healers? ball groups still do that.
There are other ways to play but you just dont want to play it.

Rianai

Wait, you list a few thing they should do, then say they already do it? So what exactly is the issue with ball groups? You don't want to play like them? Well, me neither. And guess what, i don't have to and the same applies to you. Yes, i can't do much against (good) ball groups, but they are rare and easy to avoid so why would i care about not being able to kill them?

ToRelax

Rianai wrote: »

If you somehow (how?) "kill" ball group strategy, who is then going to deal with those huge zergs? Or are those zergs supposed to replace them as unity that is "invincible and kills everything in the way"? Doesn't seem very desireable to me ...

People play this way because it is by far the most effective strategy way to play for larger groups. If it weren't, they would play differently. That doesn't mean a large organized group wouldn't hold an advantage anymore. Depending on how it would change, it doesn't even mean the advantage would be smaller than it is now. Many players neither enjoy playing this way nor playing against it, so at the very least it shouldn't generally outperform other group setups.

Lack of ranged AoE damage and cc is part of the reason for the current situation. And that's what this thread is about.

techprince

Rianai wrote: »

Wait, you list a few thing they should do, then say they already do it? So what exactly is the issue with ball groups? You don't want to play like them? Well, me neither. And guess what, i don't have to and the same applies to you. Yes, i can't do much against (good) ball groups, but they are rare and easy to avoid so why would i care about not being able to kill them?

Ever seen a ball group on resource towers?
They can still use every single ability/utility used by a normal group WHILE having advantage of a ball group. Running same old destro ult + proximity + vicious death combo with few ground aoes here n there.
You seriously expect us to avoid a ball group taking all our keeps and scrolls?

Rianai

ToRelax wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

If you somehow (how?) "kill" ball group strategy, who is then going to deal with those huge zergs? Or are those zergs supposed to replace them as unity that is "invincible and kills everything in the way"? Doesn't seem very desireable to me ...

People play this way because it is by far the most effective strategy way to play for larger groups. If it weren't, they would play differently. That doesn't mean a large organized group wouldn't hold an advantage anymore. Depending on how it would change, it doesn't even mean the advantage would be smaller than it is now. Many players neither enjoy playing this way nor playing against it, so at the very least it shouldn't generally outperform other group setups.

Lack of ranged AoE damage and cc is part of the reason for the current situation. And that's what this thread is about.

When thinking about what gets thrown at me by organized and unorganized zergs alike, i don't think there is a lack of ranged aoe dmg and cc, it is just not as effective vs ball groups for various reasons. And if this would change and ranged aoe/cc becomes the optimal strategy to kill a large amount of players you will have the same "ball" groups utilizing it in the most effective way and the same players complaining that they get mowed down before even getting close ...

I also don't think it is bad in general, that ranged options aren't dominating group/zerg play, because those are usually safer to use (imagine groups would be able to bomb their enemies while sitting on safe keep walls). And i think, it would make it harder for small scale groups to deal with (not so good) organized groups, because kiting and trying to split them by poking from range would be much harder.

techprince wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Wait, you list a few thing they should do, then say they already do it? So what exactly is the issue with ball groups? You don't want to play like them? Well, me neither. And guess what, i don't have to and the same applies to you. Yes, i can't do much against (good) ball groups, but they are rare and easy to avoid so why would i care about not being able to kill them?

Ever seen a ball group on resource towers?
They can still use every single ability/utility used by a normal group WHILE having advantage of a ball group. Running same old destro ult + proximity + vicious death combo with few ground aoes here n there.
You seriously expect us to avoid a ball group taking all our keeps and scrolls?

If they sit in a resource tower they aren't going to do anything other than farming those that are stupid enough to go inside and if they go out and start tanking keeps you can kill them with enough numbers and organisation or you simply take stuff back once they leave. They can't be everywhere at the same time.

CyrusArya

Like wise, a ball group cannot do much to you from range either. At least...they shouldnt be able to. Unless it’s a tryhard guild that chases solo players around, you actually have nothing to fear from raid groups if you don’t engage them and mind your footing. To get farmed by a ball group requires you to go out of your way to make that possible, with bad positioning. It’s a two way relationship. So what you’re asking for is to be able to, as a solo player, blow up organized groups from range without exposing yourself to the same danger. That’s never gonna happen.

I’d dismiss the idea that the removal of aoe caps means unorganized players will be able to blow up raid groups, let alone at range. You’re gonna either need a solid 4-6 man group with huge, coordinated aoe damage at minimum. Otherwise, you need a massive pug zerg force..at which point you are most definitely not solo and cannot use that card and deserve to be at the mercy of the zerg groups you choose to engage.

techprince

Rianai wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

If you somehow (how?) "kill" ball group strategy, who is then going to deal with those huge zergs? Or are those zergs supposed to replace them as unity that is "invincible and kills everything in the way"? Doesn't seem very desireable to me ...

People play this way because it is by far the most effective strategy way to play for larger groups. If it weren't, they would play differently. That doesn't mean a large organized group wouldn't hold an advantage anymore. Depending on how it would change, it doesn't even mean the advantage would be smaller than it is now. Many players neither enjoy playing this way nor playing against it, so at the very least it shouldn't generally outperform other group setups.

Lack of ranged AoE damage and cc is part of the reason for the current situation. And that's what this thread is about.

When thinking about what gets thrown at me by organized and unorganized zergs alike, i don't think there is a lack of ranged aoe dmg and cc, it is just not as effective vs ball groups for various reasons. And if this would change and ranged aoe/cc becomes the optimal strategy to kill a large amount of players you will have the same "ball" groups utilizing it in the most effective way and the same players complaining that they get mowed down before even getting close ...

I also don't think it is bad in general, that ranged options aren't dominating group/zerg play, because those are usually safer to use (imagine groups would be able to bomb their enemies while sitting on safe keep walls). And i think, it would make it harder for small scale groups to deal with (not so good) organized groups, because kiting and trying to split them by poking from range would be much harder.

techprince wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Wait, you list a few thing they should do, then say they already do it? So what exactly is the issue with ball groups? You don't want to play like them? Well, me neither. And guess what, i don't have to and the same applies to you. Yes, i can't do much against (good) ball groups, but they are rare and easy to avoid so why would i care about not being able to kill them?

Ever seen a ball group on resource towers?
They can still use every single ability/utility used by a normal group WHILE having advantage of a ball group. Running same old destro ult + proximity + vicious death combo with few ground aoes here n there.
You seriously expect us to avoid a ball group taking all our keeps and scrolls?

If they sit in a resource tower they aren't going to do anything other than farming those that are stupid enough to go inside and if they go out and start tanking keeps you can kill them with enough numbers and organisation or you simply take stuff back once they leave. They can't be everywhere at the same time.

Show me a single effective aoe ability that is cast able on moving targets from range who are snare and immobilization immune.
A ball group can take all our scrolls being untouched. How is this "aren't going to do anything"? a 20 siege attack on a keep destroys the gate within 5 mins. We cannot simply avoid every ball group as there are objectives in the game and not just kill counter.
You proved my point as well by stating "you simply take stuff back once they leave". This also means you cannot counter them. Hence the thread.

Rianai

Meteor (when there is enough lag )

And how can a single ball group take all your scrolls? If you have to deal with multiple good ball groups without having some on your own side it is more a faction imbalance problem than an issue with ball groups in general. And how would ranged counters solve those problems?

TheMystid

I'd like a Negate ability that worked like Shifting Standards replacing Barrier from support skill line, so that it would be accessible to anyone.

And a good Bursty ultimate for sorcs to compensate in the dark magic skill line.



....wow this came to me so easily....

ToRelax

Rianai wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

If you somehow (how?) "kill" ball group strategy, who is then going to deal with those huge zergs? Or are those zergs supposed to replace them as unity that is "invincible and kills everything in the way"? Doesn't seem very desireable to me ...

People play this way because it is by far the most effective strategy way to play for larger groups. If it weren't, they would play differently. That doesn't mean a large organized group wouldn't hold an advantage anymore. Depending on how it would change, it doesn't even mean the advantage would be smaller than it is now. Many players neither enjoy playing this way nor playing against it, so at the very least it shouldn't generally outperform other group setups.

Lack of ranged AoE damage and cc is part of the reason for the current situation. And that's what this thread is about.

When thinking about what gets thrown at me by organized and unorganized zergs alike, i don't think there is a lack of ranged aoe dmg and cc, it is just not as effective vs ball groups for various reasons. And if this would change and ranged aoe/cc becomes the optimal strategy to kill a large amount of players you will have the same "ball" groups utilizing it in the most effective way and the same players complaining that they get mowed down before even getting close ...

I also don't think it is bad in general, that ranged options aren't dominating group/zerg play, because those are usually safer to use (imagine groups would be able to bomb their enemies while sitting on safe keep walls). And i think, it would make it harder for small scale groups to deal with (not so good) organized groups, because kiting and trying to split them by poking from range would be much harder.

Well, I think they are lacking, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
There is Inevitable Detonation, which is kinda clunky but could be used to decent effect. Elemental Ring, which is kinda meh but an option to fall back on for magicka. Maybe the scamp, but it's super clunky in large fights. And then various ground AoEs, like Lightning Flood, Arrow Barrage, Caltrops, Eruption, Winter's Revenge, Spear Shards. Ranged AoE ults are quite decent with Elemental Rage and Meteor, though only for magicka.
All in all, definitely not enough imo. Crystal Blast was buffed with the stated intention to make it more useful against stacks of players. That's a 5m splash damage attached to an expensive spell projectile with a cast time that flies in an high arch. I don't have to tell you how useful it is.

You also seem to assume quite a lot of things about how this would play out. There doesn't have to be only one optimal strategy. Players don't have to stack at all. And new or improved tools don't have to be designed in a way that defeats their entire purpose. One thing you are correct on, though: good groups would adapt one way or another, while others would rather complain.

Rianai

I read "lack of" as not enough quantity wise. I mentioned myself that most of those things aren't very effective against organized groups/zergs.
But how do you want to change this? Most ground aoes aren't weak per se, but they are negateable which limits their usefulness as long negate and earthgore are a thing, no matter how strong the skill effects are. So how do you want to solve that issue? Remove negate? Which isn't only used by ball groups but is also one of the best tools againt them - and it is ranged ... Maybe making ground aoes un-negateable (while keeping the silence part) would be a good idea, but it could turn tight places such as resource towers and keeps even more into death traps which, i guess, would benefit ball groups that are turteling in there more than anyone else.

Other skills are simply too weak and i'm certainly not against buffing those. However threads like this one contain very little concrete suggestions about how to buff certain skills to make them viable. It is usually just "nerf ball groups because they kill me and i can't kill them". The only thing, that is mentioned pretty much every time someone complains about ball groups, is to make siege more effective by either buffing it directly or nerfing counters, which makes me belive that most are just looking for easier ways to deal with ball groups rather than more diversity.

In the end i don't think it is possible to have multiple different strategies that are equally efficient in the same situation. Desireable yes, but not realistic. Should there be a different meta than now? I don't know. Many players seem to dislike the current meta, so i guess the answer is yes. But again, so far i haven't seen many ideas that are more than just attempts to nerf organized play in general which indirectly promotes those huge unorganized faction zergs, that are usually the preferred target of (good) ball groups.

Personally i don't care about what organized groups run unless they chase me across the map as soon they spot me. So as long the meta for chasing outnumbered players isn't the same as the meta for fighting big zergs, it is ok for me.

The only thing that bothers me sometimes when fighting stacked groups is the targeting system that makes it impossible to focus a single player among others. But this applies to any situation with multiple targets close to each other, not only to typical ball groups.

ToRelax

Honestly, I don't want to start thinking through concrete possible skills now, that doesn't lead to anything. But generally, I think we are missing splash damage with larger radius than the standard 5m, around 8m radius splash dmg on some instant ranged skills could go a long way. Additionally, we could use things that deal more dmg per enemy hit, DoTs spreading to more enemies in some way, etc. Obviously they've been trying to implement things like this for a while now.
What I don't want to see would be a better Elemental Ring - a ranged, ground-targeted instant direct damage AoE. Though if there was a delay like on Infernal guardian, that could work.
The ground AoEs we have are pretty good I think, only Earthgore is really problematic (and I don't know how bad it still is against larger groups after the update).

techprince

Rianai wrote: »

Meteor (when there is enough lag )

And how can a single ball group take all your scrolls? If you have to deal with multiple good ball groups without having some on your own side it is more a faction imbalance problem than an issue with ball groups in general. And how would ranged counters solve those problems?

Once again, you proved that we cannot counter ball groups from range as you keep saying "you need a ball group of your own".

danno8

New Skill: Potatoes Best Friend

"Fires a potato from a potato gun that instantly deals 20,000 damage to the initial target and all targets within 28m. Range 40m

For every player in the target group the damage is increased by 50%.

For every player in the targets TeamSpeak channel damage is further increased by 50%.

For every player in targets group that has Purge slotted damage is increased by 50%.

This skill has no effect on players who are not grouped, using TeamSpeak or displaying any sense of coordination or teamwork whatsoever."

techprince

danno8 wrote: »

New Skill: Potatoes Best Friend

"Fires a potato from a potato gun that instantly deals 20,000 damage to the initial target and all targets within 28m. Range 40m

For every player in the target group the damage is increased by 50%.

For every player in the targets TeamSpeak channel damage is further increased by 50%.

For every player in targets group that has Purge slotted damage is increased by 50%.

This skill has no effect on players who are not grouped, using TeamSpeak or displaying any sense of coordination or teamwork whatsoever."

Do you even zaan !?

Vilestride

danno8 wrote: »

New Skill: Potatoes Best Friend

"Fires a potato from a potato gun that instantly deals 20,000 damage to the initial target and all targets within 28m. Range 40m

For every player in the target group the damage is increased by 50%.

For every player in the targets TeamSpeak channel damage is further increased by 50%.

For every player in targets group that has Purge slotted damage is increased by 50%.

This skill has no effect on players who are not grouped, using TeamSpeak or displaying any sense of coordination or teamwork whatsoever."

Sounds good to me.

Thogard

Ball groups will be easy to kill by a few good players as soon as earthgore is removed.

Minno

though templars do have unstable core that explodes on purge. If inevitable det didnt have a cast time, you could arguably use that with unstable core, purfying light and shatter soul and a vicious death set at ranged on a fire staff.

Joy_Division

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I don't know what you expect though. It's never going to change large organized groups are never going to have a counter other than other large organized groups and rightfully so. That is the nature of a team based game. Sorry but if you're sitting there waiting for ZoS to implement something that is going to mean 1s and 2s can just smash a button or 2 and blip there goes the organized raid then I hope you're not holding your breath.

meta and whatever ability or sets are strong for whatever patch has nothing to do with it. If you want beat a group like ZS you have to be a group like ZS but better. There is no 2 ways about it. Never was never will be. That's the counter.

You just proved the problem when you said you have to be like ZS (a ball group) to beat ZS (a ball group). This is a huge problem in itself but thats for another discussion. Somehow smashing 3 buttons is better than smashing 2 buttons according to you?

See, I already disagree. This is not, fundamentally, a problem. These are problems:

Joy_Division wrote: »

The way the game's mechanics work, the way the game's grouping system works, the way cyrodiil's map funnel's players into the same spots, etc., all of the stuff favors "ball groups" and it would take reworking of these systems to make it beneficial and advantageous to spread out.

The idea that to beat a group of experienced players employing good teamwork, exemplary communication and co-ordination as well as being each individually competent while also dedicating the effort to not only theory craft but acquire the most effective builds that synergize with, and compliment one another, would require anything less than at least doing some of that, is not a problem.

So when I say to 'be a group like ZS', my words aren't so shallow as to suggest 'just use the current meta and you'll be fine'. Sure that will help, but it's not going to make you un-counter-able. The former will.

Organised is always stronger gameplay. You can quote ZoS's intentions all you want but until the patch drops where large groups of organised players aren't successful, my point is not conceded. There is always a next best strategy and it's always going to be groups like ZS who are the first to implement it to it's full potential.

And why do you think its not a problem? are you one of them?
And why do you think the ball group is the only strategy an organized group can play?
I have seen numerous groups playing without this strategy and still succeed so why not use it?
We need sufficient counter play, currently there isnt enough.

That's not what @Vilestride is saying.

You don't have to be a "ball group" clone. You do need, however, organization, teamwork, and the whole "sum is greater than the parts" to beat an equal number of organized players.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

“Hey ZoS, could you please spoon feed us and while you’re at it just remove all skills but one so we can just spam that button because thinking R hard. I should be able to kill 30 players by myself, it’s just not fair! Organized players should be penalized for working together, there is no I in team!”

This is how I read all these posts.

TheDoomsdayMonster

I don't know about destroying a ball group from range, but a few coordinated bombers attacking them in concert sure works as far as I can see...

a1i3nz

Blazing Spear used to be the best way to slow a zerg (besides bombers) but like everything useful ZOS in their infinite wisdom decided to nerf it.....

Warraxx

https://ball-group.com/

danno8

Joy_Division wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I don't know what you expect though. It's never going to change large organized groups are never going to have a counter other than other large organized groups and rightfully so. That is the nature of a team based game. Sorry but if you're sitting there waiting for ZoS to implement something that is going to mean 1s and 2s can just smash a button or 2 and blip there goes the organized raid then I hope you're not holding your breath.

meta and whatever ability or sets are strong for whatever patch has nothing to do with it. If you want beat a group like ZS you have to be a group like ZS but better. There is no 2 ways about it. Never was never will be. That's the counter.

You just proved the problem when you said you have to be like ZS (a ball group) to beat ZS (a ball group). This is a huge problem in itself but thats for another discussion. Somehow smashing 3 buttons is better than smashing 2 buttons according to you?

See, I already disagree. This is not, fundamentally, a problem. These are problems:

Joy_Division wrote: »

The way the game's mechanics work, the way the game's grouping system works, the way cyrodiil's map funnel's players into the same spots, etc., all of the stuff favors "ball groups" and it would take reworking of these systems to make it beneficial and advantageous to spread out.

The idea that to beat a group of experienced players employing good teamwork, exemplary communication and co-ordination as well as being each individually competent while also dedicating the effort to not only theory craft but acquire the most effective builds that synergize with, and compliment one another, would require anything less than at least doing some of that, is not a problem.

So when I say to 'be a group like ZS', my words aren't so shallow as to suggest 'just use the current meta and you'll be fine'. Sure that will help, but it's not going to make you un-counter-able. The former will.

Organised is always stronger gameplay. You can quote ZoS's intentions all you want but until the patch drops where large groups of organised players aren't successful, my point is not conceded. There is always a next best strategy and it's always going to be groups like ZS who are the first to implement it to it's full potential.

And why do you think its not a problem? are you one of them?
And why do you think the ball group is the only strategy an organized group can play?
I have seen numerous groups playing without this strategy and still succeed so why not use it?
We need sufficient counter play, currently there isnt enough.

That's not what @Vilestride is saying.

You don't have to be a "ball group" clone. You do need, however, organization, teamwork, and the whole "sum is greater than the parts" to beat an equal number of organized players.

Exactly this.

My Potato Cannon skill was a joke, clearly, but I still tried to hit on all the reasons why organized groups dominate non-optimized, disorganized groups of essentially solo players.

Why in the world should a "bad" group have the means to destroy a "good" group?

AddictionX

if purge wasnt an AoE ... they wouldn't be immune to things that were designed to take them out.

techprince

Joy_Division wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I don't know what you expect though. It's never going to change large organized groups are never going to have a counter other than other large organized groups and rightfully so. That is the nature of a team based game. Sorry but if you're sitting there waiting for ZoS to implement something that is going to mean 1s and 2s can just smash a button or 2 and blip there goes the organized raid then I hope you're not holding your breath.

meta and whatever ability or sets are strong for whatever patch has nothing to do with it. If you want beat a group like ZS you have to be a group like ZS but better. There is no 2 ways about it. Never was never will be. That's the counter.

You just proved the problem when you said you have to be like ZS (a ball group) to beat ZS (a ball group). This is a huge problem in itself but thats for another discussion. Somehow smashing 3 buttons is better than smashing 2 buttons according to you?

See, I already disagree. This is not, fundamentally, a problem. These are problems:

Joy_Division wrote: »

The way the game's mechanics work, the way the game's grouping system works, the way cyrodiil's map funnel's players into the same spots, etc., all of the stuff favors "ball groups" and it would take reworking of these systems to make it beneficial and advantageous to spread out.

The idea that to beat a group of experienced players employing good teamwork, exemplary communication and co-ordination as well as being each individually competent while also dedicating the effort to not only theory craft but acquire the most effective builds that synergize with, and compliment one another, would require anything less than at least doing some of that, is not a problem.

So when I say to 'be a group like ZS', my words aren't so shallow as to suggest 'just use the current meta and you'll be fine'. Sure that will help, but it's not going to make you un-counter-able. The former will.

Organised is always stronger gameplay. You can quote ZoS's intentions all you want but until the patch drops where large groups of organised players aren't successful, my point is not conceded. There is always a next best strategy and it's always going to be groups like ZS who are the first to implement it to it's full potential.

And why do you think its not a problem? are you one of them?
And why do you think the ball group is the only strategy an organized group can play?
I have seen numerous groups playing without this strategy and still succeed so why not use it?
We need sufficient counter play, currently there isnt enough.

That's not what @Vilestride is saying.

You don't have to be a "ball group" clone. You do need, however, organization, teamwork, and the whole "sum is greater than the parts" to beat an equal number of organized players.

And thats what we are saying, killing ball group strategy does not mean destroying "organised group play". When an organised group cannot counter another competent ball group without being one is a serious issue.

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

“Hey ZoS, could you please spoon feed us and while you’re at it just remove all skills but one so we can just spam that button because thinking R hard. I should be able to kill 30 players by myself, it’s just not fair! Organized players should be penalized for working together, there is no I in team!”

This is how I read all these posts.

Spoonfeed? when was the last time you killed a competent ball group without being in one?
Not sure how many are so used to this play style that they think there is nothing else.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

I don't know about destroying a ball group from range, but a few coordinated bombers attacking them in concert sure works as far as I can see...

The title itself has "range" in it.

danno8 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I don't know what you expect though. It's never going to change large organized groups are never going to have a counter other than other large organized groups and rightfully so. That is the nature of a team based game. Sorry but if you're sitting there waiting for ZoS to implement something that is going to mean 1s and 2s can just smash a button or 2 and blip there goes the organized raid then I hope you're not holding your breath.

meta and whatever ability or sets are strong for whatever patch has nothing to do with it. If you want beat a group like ZS you have to be a group like ZS but better. There is no 2 ways about it. Never was never will be. That's the counter.

You just proved the problem when you said you have to be like ZS (a ball group) to beat ZS (a ball group). This is a huge problem in itself but thats for another discussion. Somehow smashing 3 buttons is better than smashing 2 buttons according to you?

See, I already disagree. This is not, fundamentally, a problem. These are problems:

Joy_Division wrote: »

The way the game's mechanics work, the way the game's grouping system works, the way cyrodiil's map funnel's players into the same spots, etc., all of the stuff favors "ball groups" and it would take reworking of these systems to make it beneficial and advantageous to spread out.

The idea that to beat a group of experienced players employing good teamwork, exemplary communication and co-ordination as well as being each individually competent while also dedicating the effort to not only theory craft but acquire the most effective builds that synergize with, and compliment one another, would require anything less than at least doing some of that, is not a problem.

So when I say to 'be a group like ZS', my words aren't so shallow as to suggest 'just use the current meta and you'll be fine'. Sure that will help, but it's not going to make you un-counter-able. The former will.

Organised is always stronger gameplay. You can quote ZoS's intentions all you want but until the patch drops where large groups of organised players aren't successful, my point is not conceded. There is always a next best strategy and it's always going to be groups like ZS who are the first to implement it to it's full potential.

And why do you think its not a problem? are you one of them?
And why do you think the ball group is the only strategy an organized group can play?
I have seen numerous groups playing without this strategy and still succeed so why not use it?
We need sufficient counter play, currently there isnt enough.

That's not what @Vilestride is saying.

You don't have to be a "ball group" clone. You do need, however, organization, teamwork, and the whole "sum is greater than the parts" to beat an equal number of organized players.

Exactly this.

My Potato Cannon skill was a joke, clearly, but I still tried to hit on all the reasons why organized groups dominate non-optimized, disorganized groups of essentially solo players.

Why in the world should a "bad" group have the means to destroy a "good" group?

This is NOT about "bad" vs "good". This is about "ball" vs "ranged". An organised group can play normally and yet they cannot do much against a competent ball group as so many skills prevent basic mechanics from applying to them, is it that hard to understand?

clocksstoppe

Sieges..

techprince

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Sieges..

We never knew sieges existed....