Rework please Durok's Bane set

Dreth

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Dreth wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing/Mitigation in PVP is way too strong. Templars can purge and heal right through Duroks and loads of damage. NBs just cloak infinitely and run you out of resources. Sorcs can run circles around you or shield stack infinitely. Wardens can run circles around you and heal right through loads of damage as they pop their tree ults every 20 seconds. DKs can lock you down/immobilize you infinitely.

Every class has defensive mechanics that allow them to turtle up and require at least two people to kill them.

So really, defile by itself is not enough to kill a high skill level player. It takes executing a series of combos that add up to enough total pressure to earn the kill.

We really need to focus on how tanky players have gotten. Time to kill is way up, and if you don't have enough burst damage, then the fight resets and you start your combo progression all over again. The tanky meta is why it is so much harder to 1vX now.

It's important to have anti-tank sets in the game, or anti-tank mechanics or options in general. Be careful with what kind of nerfs as a community we ask for.

Wizards Riposte, in contrast, makes players super tanks because they take so much less damage, while Duroks tries to make players more killable.

This entire thread is an l2p issue.

I like how you come into almost every thread and try to discredit others discussions with things like "L2P" and other strawman arguments; if you cant argue your point without ad hominem attacks and other logical fallacies, just don't post? this board is meant to be constructive discussions and debates your toxicity is unwelcome.

The issue is that all of these "discussions" are just whining from people who got beat my one mechanic or another when that mechanic has a hard counter and the OP doesnt have a clue how it works. In post #3 his math is completely wrong. His lack of understanding about how healing reduction works in general makes the entire premise of this thread invalid. He was actually under the impression you could reduce someones healing to 0. Then he switches gears and pretends his point was how easy it is to apply it to multiple targets when someone actually shows him he has no idea what hes talking about.

People's first reaction when they get defeated by one thing or another should NOT be to run to the forums to complain. They need to slow down and actually read about things and learn before they just spew nerf about every damn thing that kills them. If you think ZOS takes these posts seriously when they see that he clearly doesnt understand how healing reduction works in the first place you're wrong.

Irylia

Qbiken wrote: »

@raasdal

Major/minor defile by itself can be countered, no doubt about that. I personally feel both healing reducing effects and healing boosting effects (such as those you mention in your post above) are way to overtuned and needs a rework.

Issue with Durok´s isn´t the defile-debuff itself, it´s just how easy it is to apply without no real draw-back. That´s the problem,

So I get incapped in cyro and I’m a warden.

I’ll assume their incap has a 45% defile due to befoul points.

With 7th legion
Major mending
Vigor
Forward momentum
Lotus light/heavies
Thicket
Spore spam

I still can’t outheal due to the defile
My hp stays stagnant or drops.
1v1 aside
Apply that defile in open world and it’s even more brutal when you have the demons from hell zerging after one dude full of 200 ap for them.

Remove befoul and healing cp
Both minor and major defile take a hit but are still effective at rendering heals less effective but now they don’t become the focal point of every duel or xv1 build.

SugaComa

Dreth wrote: »

Sets fine imo. Tired of every class being a healer and fights going on for 5+ minutes. They should reduce all healing across the board regardless of what they do with duroks.

I disagree, healing is fine problem is the way attributes work

64 points in magic and I should be able to do some serious damage and some serious heals but also be super squishy so I need to play smart

But then some can put points into health and be super tanky and still have really high damage and really high heals

Attribute scaling needs a rethink and an offset, so as you increase one it should impact the effect on another

Dreth

SugaComa wrote: »

Dreth wrote: »

Sets fine imo. Tired of every class being a healer and fights going on for 5+ minutes. They should reduce all healing across the board regardless of what they do with duroks.

I disagree, healing is fine problem is the way attributes work

64 points in magic and I should be able to do some serious damage and some serious heals but also be super squishy so I need to play smart

But then some can put points into health and be super tanky and still have really high damage and really high heals

Attribute scaling needs a rethink and an offset, so as you increase one it should impact the effect on another

The reason I say this is because I think hp bounces up and down too much. Combat is too reliant on crits and burst. I think healing should be something you can do when you are in trouble but it should be limited and not to the point where vigor becomes a full time buff. When fighting another player I would like to see your health slowly decrease as they do damage, resulting in more tactical combat over time rather than the first one to set up their burst combo during a cc be the victor. TTK isn't my issue, but to go from 25% to full in one second and reset the whole fight is dumb. It just results in stalemates bc if your burst isn't enough to get someone in execute range you have to wait for someone to make a mistake and at higher levels of pvp this doesn't happen as often. Setting up burst will still be important because it will be harder to recover from a big hit to your health, but a victory will be the result of good decision over the course of a fight, and not who can cc and burst real quick so they can spam execute.

Anethum

Irylia wrote: »

So I get incapped in cyro and I’m a warden.

Nb using for this ultimate. He can't spam it every second. He can't pair it with fasalla (Thurvokun monster set in next patch will be a strong friend of Durok's...). U can dodge it. U can purge it.
Even another stamina user can "Reverberating bash" and to spend stamina for this...U can dodge it...U can purge it.
Even Warden's Corrupting Pollen cost u magicka at least for defile...

But Defile from Durok's is everything without any efforts...and its uptime is 100% up to 10 opponents...

@ZOS_Wrobel Rework Durok's bane set...to cooldown=duration of debuff at infinite target. LIke 10 seconds on simgle target. or duration 5 seconds and cooldown 5 seconds

killimandrosb16_ESO

Ye I can easily see why this set will be a problem in cp cyrodiil, and I will be following with great interest all the various threads which will pop up in the pvp section as soon as most players are aware of it as well

Irylia

diplomatt wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

So I get incapped in cyro and I’m a warden.

Nb using for this ultimate. He can't spam it every second. He can't pair it with fasalla (Thurvokun monster set in next patch will be a strong friend of Durok's...). U can dodge it. U can purge it.
Even another stamina user can "Reverberating bash" and to spend stamina for this...U can dodge it...U can purge it.
Even Warden's Corrupting Pollen cost u magicka at least for defile...

But Defile from Durok's is everything without any efforts...and its uptime is 100% up to 10 opponents...

@ZOS_Wrobel Rework Durok's bane set...to cooldown=duration of debuff at infinite target. LIke 10 seconds on simgle target. or duration 5 seconds and cooldown 5 seconds

I don’t care how you apply defile I’m saying defile in of itself is over performing because of befoul.
Duroks is no different than one of the zerglings chasing you with his sole job to reverb bash you.
Difference is I don’t need to attack the duroks and I can get away from fasalla range.

Befoul is the issue not the ways in which defile is available

Ragnarock41

Irylia wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

So I get incapped in cyro and I’m a warden.

Nb using for this ultimate. He can't spam it every second. He can't pair it with fasalla (Thurvokun monster set in next patch will be a strong friend of Durok's...). U can dodge it. U can purge it.
Even another stamina user can "Reverberating bash" and to spend stamina for this...U can dodge it...U can purge it.
Even Warden's Corrupting Pollen cost u magicka at least for defile...

But Defile from Durok's is everything without any efforts...and its uptime is 100% up to 10 opponents...

@ZOS_Wrobel Rework Durok's bane set...to cooldown=duration of debuff at infinite target. LIke 10 seconds on simgle target. or duration 5 seconds and cooldown 5 seconds

I don’t care how you apply defile I’m saying defile in of itself is over performing because of befoul.
Duroks is no different than one of the zerglings chasing you with his sole job to reverb bash you.
Difference is I don’t need to attack the duroks and I can get away from fasalla range.

Befoul is the issue not the ways in which defile is available

Befoul is Overperforming. duroks is just making it even more obvious.

Stratforge

diplomatt wrote: »

Problem in this set it have cooldown 1 second only with a debuff 10 seconds duration.
As I understand, its general cooldown, so vs 4 enemies, it's like 4 seconds cooldown (actually not it work every second but on one of them).
So up to 10 enemies are permanently debuffed (It's Major Defile guys...) without any actions for this...No words. Same reason, why instant procsets were toxic at summer in battlegrounds - bIg no counter effect without efforts.

It broke fight system, I don't understand how @ZOS_Wrobel don't see that, here or should be cooldown per target, which will be at least with cooldown = duration of this 100% applied debuff or something else.
This set debuff is impossible even to purge, it will be applied at the next second u removed it.
Also, it breaks nightblades out of cloak from dots every second it procs now. Its definitely not as intended
And people use it with Fasalia's permanent Minor defile (in next patch it will ne new monster set instead to have less health and more damage).
+ put 70+ cp into Defile in cp system... = permanent no heal for everyone.
Its too strong. Fasalia at least provides minor debuff...

Absolutly broken, bad balanced set, not interesting to use or to fight with someone in it.
But it's now on every step.
No heal for everyone. + no resourses for everyone because of cost poison (+30% increase stam/mag cost) pandemia.
Perfect Tamriel.
Fix this set please.
Cooldown on 1 target = duration of debuff will be enouch.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom please, do attention to this set. Such things should be adjusted at the moment u see the problem, not year after...I said here nothing new. Problem still exist not solved.

The set is good and should not be nerfed. Healing is way overtuned. My only gripe is that I golded my fasallas and now that set is godawful, comparatively.

arkansas_ESO

Qbiken wrote: »

The problems with Durok´s Bane is:
a) The duration
b) Its cooldown

I personally think Durok´s Bane should work like a defensive version of Cyrodil´s crest.

(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(4 items) Adds 4% Healing Taken
(5 items) When you deal melee damage, you apply Major Defile to the enemy for 5 seconds, reducing their healing received by 30%. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

Durok´s Bane together with sets like Wizard´s Riposte have way to long duration. Reduce the duration and give it an increased cooldown.

Isn't this just a buff to the zergs? In small-scale they'd still have 100% uptime on it, and that's where the set is strongest anyways.

Anethum

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Isn't this just a buff to the zergs? In small-scale they'd still have 100% uptime on it, and that's where the set is strongest anyways.

In today's variant these sets are same more profitable for zergs.
But iIt will balance these sets in battlegrounds and small scale, solo pvp so problem will be at least partly solved

Lord_Eomer

There is no need for nerf,

this set is currently balance and good for PVP!

Malamar1229

raasdal wrote: »

I don’t get why people get so worked up over a 30% heal debuff. If you cant play with Major Defile, then you need to rework your build. There are so many sources of it. Duroks Bane is fine, since you can just avoid damaging that person if 1vX. And if you cant handle it 1v1 it is a L2P issue.

Not for a magicka sorc

raasdal

Too much QQ, too little L2P in this thread.

Anethum

raasdal wrote: »

Too much QQ, too little L2P in this thread.

Ofc we need your judge instead of argument to the theme of the thread to feed your self-conceitю

Topic is how Durok's Bane set (Wizard riposte also have too long duration... but at least there player gets Minor debuff) affect fights in pvp.
Not about what I thisnk about someone or someone about me or others personally.

This set is too strong and lazy in compare with any other existing similar sets.
@ZOS_Wrobel Duroc's Bane set need to be adjusted, bigger cooldown (to 10 seconds for example if not changing duration) and/or shorter duration (5 seconds instead 10...if cooldown is 5) to matchmake the fight system, not to broke it. Maybe to make cooldown depend on target. To make it able proc on 1 person 1 time for duration N seconds per N seconds.

raasdal

diplomatt wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Too much QQ, too little L2P in this thread.

Ofc we need your judge instead of argument to the theme of the thread to feed your self-conceitю

Topic is how Durok's Bane set (Wizard riposte also have too long duration... but at least there player gets Minor debuff) affect fights in pvp.
Not about what I thisnk about someone or someone about me or others personally.

This set is too strong and lazy in compare with any other existing similar sets.
@ZOS_Wrobel Duroc's Bane set need to be adjusted, bigger cooldown (to 10 seconds for example if not changing duration) and/or shorter duration (5 seconds instead 10...if cooldown is 5) to matchmake the fight system, not to broke it. Maybe to make cooldown depend on target. To make it able proc on 1 person 1 time for duration N seconds per N seconds.

Meh. When you do not understand how Defile actually works, it makes no sense to argue the strength of a set with that property. Much like it makes no sense to discuss astrophysics with a toddler. I tried earlier, and failed apparently.

DirtyWizard

Having played with Duroks myself and with people wearing it as well as wardens with pollen, can say that against strong groups it is at times almost unnoticeable because of how strong healing is in the game. There are many potential defensive sets in the game that provide incredible tankiness/healing. In a small group you need very good DPS with you to capitalize on the healing debuff, and as mentioned, if fighting another strong group with potentially multiple healers, it is sometimes not enough despite it's strength. SPC can have incredibly high up time, as can wizards riposte, so having high up time on a buff set is not unique to Duroks, and both SPC and riposte are very powerful.

Duroks needs to exist, and I would rather have a fight end than drag on forever.

Anethum

raasdal wrote: »

Meh. When you do not understand how Defile actually works, it makes no sense to argue the strength of a set with that property. Much like it makes no sense to discuss astrophysics with a toddler. I tried earlier, and failed apparently.

Thats not astrophysics, debuff is very simple (if to not mention that zeni announced in patchnotes it's proper work vs troll king and drink buffs only in next patch). And With Befoul star in champion system it's proportionally stronger.
Major defile is not something unique, every snb user spam it (with spending stamina) and a lot of mana users (dk standart, templars dark flare, warden's aoe delayed heal, soul harvest, seems everyone mentioned), who spend mana for this.
It's a part of the game. I have no anything against this debuff. Simply if it will work properly eveyone can use it or not as he decided for his build, with a spending resourses or instead another set bonus.

But, i completly don't like idea of 1 second cooldown for Major debuff with duration 10 seconds.
And its absolutly clear here why this is wrong for the current system.

techprince

When you think Riposte without cooldown is "fine" and durok with 1 second is not, makes your entire op invalid. Sorry, healing is very high and needs to be countered.

Anethum

techprince wrote: »

When you think Riposte without cooldown is "fine" and durok with 1 second is not, makes your entire op invalid. Sorry, healing is very high and needs to be countered.

i never said that think riposte without cooldown is "fine". I wrote only that it at least make minor debuff, nothing else.
But Durok's makes Major Defile.
Also Riposte works only from crits (not sure about its uptime on shield-spammers, don't use it).
So don't tie it to me please.
But if to analyze Wizard - I see same problem, too long duration, no cooldown at all, its wrong, should be adjusted also. It should not be that everyone is minor maim-ed by the default without any efforts from it's user ofc.

But I say about Durok's problem, it's bigger.

Skoomah

How much pvp do you do? Scrubs die in seconds while good players take multiple combo rotations to wither them down even with defile. Good players and groups have incredible healing. Healing needs a counter. Fights need to end.

Ragnarock41

Skoomah wrote: »

How much pvp do you do? Scrubs die in seconds while good players take multiple combo rotations to wither them down even with defile. Good players and groups have incredible healing. Healing needs a counter. Fights need to end.

except those healbots are still unkillable because they didn't attack the duroks bot in the first place, and even if you manually go and defile them, they just cleanse and keep spamming bols. spam bols, spam cleanse, spam wards, eots , eots, eots.. rinse and repeat... this is pvp nowadays.

Groups are unkillable because of ridicilous healers+shieldstacking.
As long as you keep closing your eyes to the real problem dumb, pointless things like befoul will be in this game. If templars couldn't purge literally every debuff I put on them, we wouldn't need befoul in the first place.

Anethum

Skoomah wrote: »

How much pvp do you do? Scrubs die in seconds while good players take multiple combo rotations to wither them down even with defile. Good players and groups have incredible healing. Healing needs a counter. Fights need to end.

ofc it needs to end. and all reverbs and another sets serve to this.
but durok's...it makes everyone attacking u -30% healing without any counterplay except live with it like a constant similar to battlespirit (wizard's riposte same, 100% of minor maim is not healthy for pvp).
and i personally live as usual vs duroc's users fine, with multiply rude words for zenimax and users. but its annoying boring etc and I wan't to change
principle of such set's work is full trash

Thogard

Duroks is strong because the traditional counter - purify - does not work against it due to the short 1s cooldown durok’s has.

This leaves you only with major vitality as a potential counter (maj mending will not help much). Maj vitality has very few sources, none of which are permanently available the way that Durok’s is, and all of which require you to drop something important from your build.

Defile is too strong with befoul passive, but from regular sources you can counter with purify if you have a Templar in group.

Durok’s? Nah.

Chrlynsch

Bane
bān
noun
A cause of great distress or annoyance.

Checks out, I'm guessing Durok was a PVP healer.

Skoomah

I go back to my original point, the defense mechanics in this game are too strong. Even with Morrowind changes and nerf after nerf, people can still build toons that can turtle up and nuke you from near full hp in seconds.

Common playstyles of top end players:
DK - Unlimited blocks and crazy damage whips
Templar - Purge, crazy heals, jabs and bubbles to death
Warden - 99% uptime trees, crazy fast movement, subterranean assault and birds unavoidable damage spammed
Sorc - Shield stack and crazy burst from range
Nightblades - Unlimited cloak and crazy burst from near full health to 0, btw their openers put major defile on you, so they can put 100% uptime on you

ThulsaDoomDC

Set is perfectly fine. You literally have to build as a debuff tank in order to properly use it in a group, which makes you viable. Just save the guy with Durok's for last. Play smarter. Just don't have the zerg mentality.

Ragnarock41

Skoomah wrote: »

I go back to my original point, the defense mechanics in this game are too strong. Even with Morrowind changes and nerf after nerf, people can still build toons that can turtle up and nuke you from near full hp in seconds.

Common playstyles of top end players:
DK - Unlimited blocks and crazy damage whips
Templar - Purge, crazy heals, jabs and bubbles to death
Warden - 99% uptime trees, crazy fast movement, subterranean assault and birds unavoidable damage spammed
Sorc - Shield stack and crazy burst from range
Nightblades - Unlimited cloak and crazy burst from near full health to 0, btw their openers put major defile on you, so they can put 100% uptime on you

But the problem is, cloak spam, shield spam won't get any nerfs because of our heavily biased community.
You are a hero for saying ''heavy armor shouldn't do damage like med/light''

But you're gonna get tons of insults from nb/sorc mains if you dare to say ''medium/light shouldn't be as tanky as heavy armor''
which is exactly what shield stacking/ cloak does give them. survivability that scales with offensive stats.

Seventh legion that can proc multiple times is a problem, but wizard riposte that makes literally everyone who touched you get maimed forever isn't a problem according to those guys. This is just pure bias.

And templars will be fine as long as they keep their cleanse. They aren't even affected by duroks meta. I've never seen a single healer complaining about defile bot builds.

Only DKs get screwed big time because of defile+befoul. nobody else.

IF groups with healers are unkillable and it needs a counter, then get rid of the ridicilous cleanse.

Dyride

Durok's requires sacrificing a 5 pc set for the high uptime on a important debuff. The 2-4 pc bonuses are negligible boosts even for a tank.

Befoul has diminishing returns considering there are lots of other useful Green CP trees.

It isn't hard to get an extra 33% heal debuff from Befoul however (My minor defile poisons are 20% and Major Defile is 40% heal debuff). It makes for an effective combo that people like @Lexxypwns have been pointing out for a while.

raasdal

Dyride wrote: »

Durok's requires sacrificing a 5 pc set for the high uptime on a important debuff. The 2-4 pc bonuses are negligible boosts even for a tank.

Befoul has diminishing returns considering there are lots of other useful Green CP trees.

It isn't hard to get an extra 33% heal debuff from Befoul however (My minor defile poisons are 20% and Major Defile is 40% heal debuff). It makes for an effective combo that people like @Lexxypwns have been pointing out for a while.

I completely agree with your sentiment regarding the sacrifices which one has to make, to become a Defile-bot.

But that claimed 33% Heal Debuff hurts my eyes. That number is impossible. Just for clarity, below are the total Defile numbers, with different setups. These numbers however, assume totally unbuffed opponent, without Mending or Healing Received bonuses, of which the latter will directly impact the relative effectiveness of befoul / defile;

Minor Defile = 15% (23,25% with Befoul 100 CP)
Major Defile = 30% (46,5% with Befoul 100 CP)
Minor Defile + Major Defile = 40,5% (58,9% with 100 CP Befoul)

So, the maximum possible Healing Reduction achievable is 58,9%, and the maximum added value by Befoul star is 18,4% Defile. That is a LOOOOOONG way from 33%.

EDIT... Ahhh. Sorry. After rereading, i just realize that the 33% was most probably referring to the percentage of Befoul star (0-55%). In that case, your post is 100% accurate, and i agree. Just for the sake of the numbers, i will however leave the numbers i took the time to quickly calculate.