Dive Needs a Total Rework

Longstride

While I agree that 5-7k undodgeable range attacks are too strong, in most PvP fights this skill is rendered useless by the change. Its animation is extraordinarily telling and it's delayed nature will give opponents ample time to react by dodging. Also, how exactly does one dodge a dive bombing bird?

If it is to remain dodgeable it needs to be an instant skill with less damage and a reworked animation.

Recremen

Longstride wrote: »

Also, how exactly does one dodge a dive bombing bird?

By moving your body out of the way? Like idk what to tell you on that front, it is 100% as believable as rolling out of the way of a sword swing.

As for the actual complaint, idk, it still looks like it's going to be useful in large group fights. I imagine folks into dueling or really small-scale fights might have more of an issue. On the other hand, even in those situations isn't it still useful for setting up burst damage? Something to chew on, I guess.

Longstride

Not to argue about the periphery, but a bird would easily be able to land the attack. It's a sentient projectile, a homing missile. But all this is beside the actual point.

It will no longer be useful for setting up burst because the animation is very telling and the burst is delayed. It is not delayed soley in its travel time, nor purely in its animation, but it is simply delayed 1 second after animation. Were the burst to be instant then sure, the animation could remain the same. At that point, however, the damage would need to be reduced.

NyassaV

Just increase the speed by 15% give or take

Waffennacht

Worthless just drop it from your bar, warden gets 1.5 useable offensive abilities

ZoS, you screwed pooch on this one

Longstride

Waffennacht wrote: »

Worthless just drop it from your bar, warden gets 1.5 useable offensive abilities

ZoS, you screwed pooch AGAINon this one

I had to edit your statement slightly.

Tryxus

Maybe turn this skill into a pet like the Bear and Netch, and make it fight like a Cliff Strider?

xaraan

I don't think the birds were hard to deal with as they were, but can see the reason they changed it. In the end though, this is the chance to rework the skill. The only reason it was useful was in pvp for that reason, now that they reason it gone, there is no reason it belongs on a bar in pvp or pve now, so take the opportunity to correct that and make it a decent spammable.

Nihility42

Can we clarify whether we're talking about stam or mag in these topics? Because maybe this hurts mag a lot, but I don't see how this will have any effect on stamdens. Just saying that this destroys warden is not clear or accurate.

DeadlyRecluse

Dark flare is dodgeable and I have a ton of fun on a dark flare build.

If you're spamming birds, they aren't going to dodge them all (or you'll run them out of stam as they dodgeroll around, then kill them in one CC). Like all single target, non-beam skills, it's just another tool in your kit.

Were I a magwarden main right now, I'd beg for compensating buffs to other skills that increase the potency of the overall kit, rather than an adjustment of an ability that still maintains the core of what makes it "cool," a high damage skill with a predictable delay that allows for syncing up burst.

Longstride

Nihility42 wrote: »

Can we clarify whether we're talking about stam or mag in these topics? Because maybe this hurts mag a lot, but I don't see how this will have any effect on stamdens. Just saying that this destroys warden is not clear or accurate.

The skill is functionally the same whichever morph you select. Also, I don't believe I claimed that this change destroyed the Warden.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Dark flare is dodgeable and I have a ton of fun on a dark flare build.

If you're spamming birds, they aren't going to dodge them all (or you'll run them out of stam as they dodgeroll around, then kill them in one CC). Like all single target, non-beam skills, it's just another tool in your kit.

Were I a magwarden main right now, I'd beg for compensating buffs to other skills that increase the potency of the overall kit, rather than an adjustment of an ability that still maintains the core of what makes it "cool," a high damage skill with a predictable delay that allows for syncing up burst.

In a spam situation certainly not much changes; however, in small scale battles the change is drastic.

I agree that the entire kit needs to be evaluated and altered; however, in PvP the class was able to compete. The only thing that allowed it to do so was the ability to reliably time burst which is the pivot of the entire class. They have negated that element in all situations that are not zerg vs zerg.

Nihility42

Longstride wrote: »

Nihility42 wrote: »

Can we clarify whether we're talking about stam or mag in these topics? Because maybe this hurts mag a lot, but I don't see how this will have any effect on stamdens. Just saying that this destroys warden is not clear or accurate.

The skill is functionally the same whichever morph you select. Also, I don't believe I claimed that this change destroyed the Warden.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Dark flare is dodgeable and I have a ton of fun on a dark flare build.

If you're spamming birds, they aren't going to dodge them all (or you'll run them out of stam as they dodgeroll around, then kill them in one CC). Like all single target, non-beam skills, it's just another tool in your kit.

Were I a magwarden main right now, I'd beg for compensating buffs to other skills that increase the potency of the overall kit, rather than an adjustment of an ability that still maintains the core of what makes it "cool," a high damage skill with a predictable delay that allows for syncing up burst.

In a spam situation certainly not much changes; however, in small scale battles the change is drastic.

I agree that the entire kit needs to be evaluated and altered; however, in PvP the class was able to compete. The only thing that allowed it to do so was the ability to reliably time burst which is the pivot of the entire class. They have negated that element in all situations that are not zerg vs zerg.

They haven't negated the burst. Again, speaking on stamden, most builds don't even use birds for burst.

Longstride

They have not negated the burst, but they have negated the reliability of the burst. It is fairly easy to dogeroll the shalks as is, the primary means of keeping pressure on your target is the use of Dive. Now both methods of landing spike are easily avoided by dodgerolling.

I agree that the heavy armor/2h stamdens will not be as negatively impacted by the change; however bow builds certainly will be.

f047ys3v3n

Longstride wrote: »

While I agree that 5-7k undodgeable range attacks are too strong, in most PvP fights this skill is rendered useless by the change. Its animation is extraordinarily telling and it's delayed nature will give opponents ample time to react by dodging. Also, how exactly does one dodge a dive bombing bird?

If it is to remain dodgeable it needs to be an instant skill with less damage and a reworked animation.

Dive is an unbalanceable skill just as all skills who's utility is totally different in PVE vs PVP are unbalanceable.

In PVE, where bosses basically do not dodge or reflect, dive is just a ranged spamable and in this role it didn't do enough damage.

In PVP, where players do a great deal of reflects and dodges, the skill was way OP as it did almost as much damage as other spamables but was not avoidable in the conventional ways.

Bottom line, you cannot balance skills for both PVP and PVE simultaneously because the fights are dramatically different in mechanics and this makes the utility of skills vastly different depending on which you are doing. Wroblel is either not smart enough or too ignorant to figure this out and so here we are. Birds as it was formally constituted was a particularly amusing example as it was actually OP in PVP and significantly UP in PVE. I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds. Birds would have been interesting if skills were balanced differently in PVP and PVE as it could do enough damage to be good in PVE and less in PVE but have the undogable quality. Now we just have another unique class skill nerfed to inferiority vs a weapon line skill.

None of this even mentions how those pernicious medium armor dodge and LOS builds that have also been boosted with CE use will be greatly benefited by no longer being effected by the one ability that was something of a counter to them.

Longstride

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Longstride wrote: »

While I agree that 5-7k undodgeable range attacks are too strong, in most PvP fights this skill is rendered useless by the change. Its animation is extraordinarily telling and it's delayed nature will give opponents ample time to react by dodging. Also, how exactly does one dodge a dive bombing bird?

If it is to remain dodgeable it needs to be an instant skill with less damage and a reworked animation.

Dive is an unbalanceable skill just as all skills who's utility is totally different in PVE vs PVP are unbalanceable.

In PVE, where bosses basically do not dodge or reflect, dive is just a ranged spamable and in this role it didn't do enough damage.

In PVP, where players do a great deal of reflects and dodges, the skill was way OP as it did almost as much damage as other spamables but was not avoidable in the conventional ways.

Bottom line, you cannot balance skills for both PVP and PVE simultaneously because the fights are dramatically different in mechanics and this makes the utility of skills vastly different depending on which you are doing. Wroblel is either not smart enough or too ignorant to figure this out and so here we are. Birds as it was formally constituted was a particularly amusing example as it was actually OP in PVP and significantly UP in PVE. I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds. It would be interesting if skills were balanced differently in PVP and PVE as it could do enough damage to be good in PVE and less in PVE but have the undogable quality.

I concur.

pieratsos

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

JobooAGS

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

Stam birds could use a buff, it has nothing except its stam

Anhedonie

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

pieratsos

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

Anhedonie

pieratsos wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

Dive is:
1)Delayed. It has weaker DPS than Force Pulse.
2)Has 0 utility. Force Pulse provides status effects. And considering that everybody is running asylum staff right now...
3)Lacks damage compared to Force Pulse as you more often than not will be in close range and won't be getting full bonus. Also, if your crit chance is high enough, Force Pulse will out perform Dive by hitting critically with all 3 elements.
4)You will never be able to sustain FP + Dive rotation in trials.

SodanTok

pieratsos wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

And dark flare is hardest hitting ability in the game that does not require any special condition. At some point the damage does not outweigh the benefits of other skills.
You are right, dive is spammable. Yet its trademark was spamming it at people that used dodge as their defense. It is weak spammable and the only use it will see now is poor man's frag in mag warden burst setup. Nobody touches it as 'spammable' skill in PVE. Nobody touches cutting dive as spammable anywhere (ehm... unless it is literally the only choice)

pieratsos

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

Dive is:
1)Delayed. It has weaker DPS than Force Pulse.
2)Has 0 utility. Force Pulse provides status effects. And considering that everybody is running asylum staff right now...
3)Lacks damage compared to Force Pulse as you more often than not will be in close range and won't be getting full bonus. Also, if your crit chance is high enough, Force Pulse will out perform Dive by hitting critically with all 3 elements.
4)You will never be able to sustain FP + Dive rotation in trials.

We are talking about PVP here. This thread was created about PVP. Making dive dodgeable changes absolutely nothing when it comes to PVE. You are all over the place.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

Longstride wrote: »

While I agree that 5-7k undodgeable range attacks are too strong, in most PvP fights this skill is rendered useless by the change. Its animation is extraordinarily telling and it's delayed nature will give opponents ample time to react by dodging. Also, how exactly does one dodge a dive bombing bird?

If it is to remain dodgeable it needs to be an instant skill with less damage and a reworked animation.

You think people can just spam rolldodging or what? No.

Birds being Undodgeable is ridiculous.

pieratsos

SodanTok wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

And dark flare is hardest hitting ability in the game that does not require any special condition. At some point the damage does not outweigh the benefits of other skills.
You are right, dive is spammable. Yet its trademark was spamming it at people that used dodge as their defense. It is weak spammable and the only use it will see now is poor man's frag in mag warden burst setup. Nobody touches it as 'spammable' skill in PVE. Nobody touches cutting dive as spammable anywhere (ehm... unless it is literally the only choice)

Dark flare has a cast time. Not really comparable. You also bring up PVE while this thread is about PVP. I said nothing about PVE. My post was about the misinformation around dive not hitting hard and people saying that other spammables hit harder. This is simply not true. In terms of raw dmg its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. This is what i said.

Its trademark is not spamming it against dodge builds. This just happens cause of very poor design which made the ability prety much a hard counter to dodge. It should never be undodgeable in the first place. Its trademark is the fact that its the only delayed spammable in the game which allows it to be used in combination with another spammable + burst abilities/ults. This is what makes it unique. Whether that is good or bad its a completely different story. But when it comes to dmg and dodge its very simple. The ability hits way too hard to be undodgeable.

As far as the stamina morph is concerned, its a little different. Even tho i will agree that the stamina morph could use a buff, you have to take into account how stamina warden performs. The class is so stupid to the point where you dont even need a spammable. You can just heavy attack - sub - DBoS - reverse slice and people start dropping like dominos. So i really dont understand all that fuss around cutting dive and stamina wardens.

SodanTok

pieratsos wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

And dark flare is hardest hitting ability in the game that does not require any special condition. At some point the damage does not outweigh the benefits of other skills.
You are right, dive is spammable. Yet its trademark was spamming it at people that used dodge as their defense. It is weak spammable and the only use it will see now is poor man's frag in mag warden burst setup. Nobody touches it as 'spammable' skill in PVE. Nobody touches cutting dive as spammable anywhere (ehm... unless it is literally the only choice)

Dark flare has a cast time. Not really comparable. You also bring up PVE while this thread is about PVP. I said nothing about PVE. My post was about the misinformation around dive not hitting hard and people saying that other spammables hit harder. This is simply not true. In terms of raw dmg its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. This is what i said.

Its trademark is not spamming it against dodge builds. This just happens cause of very poor design which made the ability prety much a hard counter to dodge. It should never be undodgeable in the first place. Its trademark is the fact that its the only delayed spammable in the game which allows it to be used in combination with another spammable + burst abilities/ults. This is what makes it unique. Whether that is good or bad its a completely different story. But when it comes to dmg and dodge its very simple. The ability hits way too hard to be undodgeable.

As far as the stamina morph is concerned, its a little different. Even tho i will agree that the stamina morph could use a buff, you have to take into account how stamina warden performs. The class is so stupid to the point where you dont even need a spammable. You can just heavy attack - sub - DBoS - reverse slice and people start dropping like dominos. So i really dont understand all that fuss around cutting dive and stamina wardens.

We are talking spammable here tho. It does not matter if you are talking pve or pvp. Good spammable has place in both modes (unless you dont need spammable in PVP for example). Surprise attack, Crushing Shock/Force Pulse, Shrouded Daggers, Steel Tornado, ... hell even Snipe (on bow build) and Wrecking Blow (on 2H build) are all attack effective as spammable in both modes. Because when you need to spam some attack, it does not matter. What gives most DPS in PVE gives most pressure in PVP.

What are you describing now with dive is not spammable. You are describing delayed burst attack, mostly because of the sheer amount of damage screaming cliff racer has (unbuffed tooltip + 15% morph + 6% passive + 2% passive). This is also the only place for this skill now.
It is bad spammable.
When it was undodgeable it would simply be OP if it was actually good spammable, but now its time to make it good spammable.

As for stamina warden, I dont have to take into account anything. Right now, the way stamina warden performs in PVP or PVE, is performing without Cutting DIve. Without UNDODGEABLE cutting dive, that will be dodgeable after this patch hits. I dont know how much obvious it has to be, that Cutting Dive is bad spammable (same as screaming cliff racer), but also bad everything else (since it never had the crazy high damage screaming cliff racer has to make it somehow good burst attack)

Arkangeloski

No more 1 button smashing bird spamming behind the zerg and no more ptw you know something is broken when you see 5 stars mag wardens 4 months after the release of morrowind... This and the rework on block is bringing us one step closer to a less cancerous cyrodill. Cheers!!

pieratsos

SodanTok wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

And dark flare is hardest hitting ability in the game that does not require any special condition. At some point the damage does not outweigh the benefits of other skills.
You are right, dive is spammable. Yet its trademark was spamming it at people that used dodge as their defense. It is weak spammable and the only use it will see now is poor man's frag in mag warden burst setup. Nobody touches it as 'spammable' skill in PVE. Nobody touches cutting dive as spammable anywhere (ehm... unless it is literally the only choice)

Dark flare has a cast time. Not really comparable. You also bring up PVE while this thread is about PVP. I said nothing about PVE. My post was about the misinformation around dive not hitting hard and people saying that other spammables hit harder. This is simply not true. In terms of raw dmg its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. This is what i said.

Its trademark is not spamming it against dodge builds. This just happens cause of very poor design which made the ability prety much a hard counter to dodge. It should never be undodgeable in the first place. Its trademark is the fact that its the only delayed spammable in the game which allows it to be used in combination with another spammable + burst abilities/ults. This is what makes it unique. Whether that is good or bad its a completely different story. But when it comes to dmg and dodge its very simple. The ability hits way too hard to be undodgeable.

As far as the stamina morph is concerned, its a little different. Even tho i will agree that the stamina morph could use a buff, you have to take into account how stamina warden performs. The class is so stupid to the point where you dont even need a spammable. You can just heavy attack - sub - DBoS - reverse slice and people start dropping like dominos. So i really dont understand all that fuss around cutting dive and stamina wardens.

We are talking spammable here tho. It does not matter if you are talking pve or pvp. Good spammable has place in both modes (unless you dont need spammable in PVP for example). Surprise attack, Crushing Shock/Force Pulse, Shrouded Daggers, Steel Tornado, ... hell even Snipe (on bow build) and Wrecking Blow (on 2H build) are all attack effective as spammable in both modes. Because when you need to spam some attack, it does not matter. What gives most DPS in PVE gives most pressure in PVP.

What are you describing now with dive is not spammable. You are describing delayed burst attack, mostly because of the sheer amount of damage screaming cliff racer has (unbuffed tooltip + 15% morph + 6% passive + 2% passive). This is also the only place for this skill now.
It is bad spammable.
When it was undodgeable it would simply be OP if it was actually good spammable, but now its time to make it good spammable.

As for stamina warden, I dont have to take into account anything. Right now, the way stamina warden performs in PVP or PVE, is performing without Cutting DIve. Without UNDODGEABLE cutting dive, that will be dodgeable after this patch hits. I dont know how much obvious it has to be, that Cutting Dive is bad spammable (same as screaming cliff racer), but also bad everything else (since it never had the crazy high damage screaming cliff racer has to make it somehow good burst attack)

I dont have to talk about PVE. We are not talking about overall warden performance and how dive compares to other spammables in trials or whatever and i never said anything about dive being good in PVE. The thread was created about PVP. I answered with that in mind. This whole thing about dive started because it became dodgeable. Nothing changed regarding PVE.

I never said its a perfect spammable. I actually said that if the way is designed is bad then its a different discussion. But saying that dive doesnt hit as hard as crushing shock and that its better dropping it for crushing shock is simply not true (PVP). It hits way harder than crushing shock and its uniqueness is what allows it to be used with crushing shock. So saying that its bad in PVP is simply not true. There is no need to drop one over the other. This is what i said. If anything, suggesting a redesign to make it like every spammable (just so it can be good in PVE too) is what will make you choose one over the other.

About cutting dive i said that it does need a buff. I just stated that i have no clue why there is so much fuss about stamina wardens and how they are going to get affected by undodgeable birds. But i would still argue that it still has a place because its delayed and allows you to use it in combination with another spammable like heroic. Not that you need it with the sheer amount of burst stamdens have but whatever.

SodanTok

pieratsos wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I expect just nobody will use it now as crushing shock or force pulse will probably be better in both. It also cannot be reflected, does more damage, has status effects associated, and interrupts in PVP. It's a shame about birds.

Can we stop with the misinformation please? In terms of dmg nothing beats birds. Birds lack utility cause its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. The only spammable that can compete with it, its surprise attack. Every other spammable is weaker and thats without even taking into account the 15% dmg buff from range. If you take that 15% dmg buff into account then birds can compete with spammables with cast time. Thats how hard they can hit.

Crushing shock doesnt even come close. But feel free to use both. They land at the same time you know.

that's not really true.

Just because you dont want to accept the truth it doesnt mean that its not true. Its absolutely true and feel free to log on PTS and create new characters without any gear, CP etc and check the base dmg of those spammables. Birds without the dmg buff have a higher tooltip than any spammable with the exception of surprise attack that its on par. If you count the dmg buff from range as well it outperforms everything. And im not even touching other warden passives that buff it even further.
And its also absolutely true that it can be combined with other spammables like crushing shock because of the delay which makes them both hit at the same time.

Its amazing how you guys dont even know ur own class.

And dark flare is hardest hitting ability in the game that does not require any special condition. At some point the damage does not outweigh the benefits of other skills.
You are right, dive is spammable. Yet its trademark was spamming it at people that used dodge as their defense. It is weak spammable and the only use it will see now is poor man's frag in mag warden burst setup. Nobody touches it as 'spammable' skill in PVE. Nobody touches cutting dive as spammable anywhere (ehm... unless it is literally the only choice)

Dark flare has a cast time. Not really comparable. You also bring up PVE while this thread is about PVP. I said nothing about PVE. My post was about the misinformation around dive not hitting hard and people saying that other spammables hit harder. This is simply not true. In terms of raw dmg its the hardest hitting spammable in the game. This is what i said.

Its trademark is not spamming it against dodge builds. This just happens cause of very poor design which made the ability prety much a hard counter to dodge. It should never be undodgeable in the first place. Its trademark is the fact that its the only delayed spammable in the game which allows it to be used in combination with another spammable + burst abilities/ults. This is what makes it unique. Whether that is good or bad its a completely different story. But when it comes to dmg and dodge its very simple. The ability hits way too hard to be undodgeable.

As far as the stamina morph is concerned, its a little different. Even tho i will agree that the stamina morph could use a buff, you have to take into account how stamina warden performs. The class is so stupid to the point where you dont even need a spammable. You can just heavy attack - sub - DBoS - reverse slice and people start dropping like dominos. So i really dont understand all that fuss around cutting dive and stamina wardens.

We are talking spammable here tho. It does not matter if you are talking pve or pvp. Good spammable has place in both modes (unless you dont need spammable in PVP for example). Surprise attack, Crushing Shock/Force Pulse, Shrouded Daggers, Steel Tornado, ... hell even Snipe (on bow build) and Wrecking Blow (on 2H build) are all attack effective as spammable in both modes. Because when you need to spam some attack, it does not matter. What gives most DPS in PVE gives most pressure in PVP.

What are you describing now with dive is not spammable. You are describing delayed burst attack, mostly because of the sheer amount of damage screaming cliff racer has (unbuffed tooltip + 15% morph + 6% passive + 2% passive). This is also the only place for this skill now.
It is bad spammable.
When it was undodgeable it would simply be OP if it was actually good spammable, but now its time to make it good spammable.

As for stamina warden, I dont have to take into account anything. Right now, the way stamina warden performs in PVP or PVE, is performing without Cutting DIve. Without UNDODGEABLE cutting dive, that will be dodgeable after this patch hits. I dont know how much obvious it has to be, that Cutting Dive is bad spammable (same as screaming cliff racer), but also bad everything else (since it never had the crazy high damage screaming cliff racer has to make it somehow good burst attack)

I dont have to talk about PVE. We are not talking about overall warden performance and how dive compares to other spammables in trials or whatever and i never said anything about dive being good in PVE. The thread was created about PVP. I answered with that in mind. This whole thing about dive started because it became dodgeable. Nothing changed regarding PVE.

I never said its a perfect spammable. I actually said that if the way is designed is bad then its a different discussion. But saying that dive doesnt hit as hard as crushing shock and that its better dropping it for crushing shock is simply not true (PVP). It hits way harder than crushing shock and its uniqueness is what allows it to be used with crushing shock. So saying that its bad in PVP is simply not true. There is no need to drop one over the other. This is what i said. If anything, suggesting a redesign to make it like every spammable (just so it can be good in PVE too) is what will make you choose one over the other.

About cutting dive i said that it does need a buff. I just stated that i have no clue why there is so much fuss about stamina wardens and how they are going to get affected by undodgeable birds. But i would still argue that it still has a place because its delayed and allows you to use it in combination with another spammable like heroic. Not that you need it with the sheer amount of burst stamdens have but whatever.

Cant disagree with that. I may have used my replies to you in much broader sense than just reply. Mag cliff racer is still obviously good skill, as part of burst and nearly exclusively because they have access to undodgeable CC. And they have almost no reason to drop it from bar... because they have nothing to put there anyway.

So, without specially targeting you. Current version of Dive is bad spammable and therefore should be reworked. It was designed as spammable skill and it does bad job at being one. I would go as far and say the 15% damage buff on magicka morph is big contributor why the skill is still good as part of some burst combo. The base damage, from smaller range, and lack of any debuffs or other advantages make it weak replacement for any other (usable) spammable in the game.