From a meta perspective why would you take DK for anything other than a Tank? (esp after patch).

Knowledge

As we all know MMORPGs are all about numbers. If someone is seeking meta builds and optimal group compositions for maximum damage, sustain, and reduction of time for a given dungeon or trial, why bring a DK?

This is something that Zenimax needs to consider when balancing classes. The imbalance and nerfs mainly impact the upper 1% of players doing Trials, Vet Trials, and Veteran Hardmodes. Of course, anyone that just runs around the overland and does normal dungeons will never care about the DK Nerf and likely runs some weird combination of gear.

The DK has no role besides tank once this goes live. Even the tank role is being contended for by the Warden. I understand Warden isn't a better tank but if any more changes occur it could be.

Liofa

Stam DK is still going to be strong , maybe not as much as Stamblade but still . StamDK holds the best sustain and this will make room in raid groups for them . MagDK is absolutely garbage , don't even have to speak about it . Worst PvE class atm and will be even worse next patch .

LiquidPony

On the other hand, DKs are arguably over-performing in the end game right now.

The top MoL score on NA has 5 DKs in the group. The top HoF score on EU has 6 DKs in the group. For the past 6 months, the PvE meta has basically been: "as many stamDKs as you can realistically cram into a group."

All stam builds except stamblades are going to take a hit from the off balance nerf. I'd wager that stamDKs will still be a very desirable end game build next patch.

MehrunesFlagon

from a stamina perspective yes.from magic no.

usmcjdking

OP, you haven't really addressed what you envision for a meta endstate so it's fairly hard to understand your perspective.

Are you talking solely DPS? Well there's only 8 slots and 10 possible DPS loadouts. The purpose of meta is to design a team that utilizes as many available buffs/debuffs possible amongst them. Mag DK would be in if DK tanks were replaced with any other combination of classes.

Which really gets to the core of Mag DK DPS problems. A majority of their toolkit that they bring to the table is covered by the tanks - as is the case with current magplar being eclipsed by healplars and magblades.

Tannus15

Is Mag Warden out performing Mag DK now?

Liofa

Tannus15 wrote: »

Is Mag Warden out performing Mag DK now?

mDK never been a competitive class since Morrowind . A few players tried to hang on to it but simple fact that Stamina did more DPS and not relying on Off Balance to sustain made any Stamina class much better than mDK . MagWarden can be played range and can be used to give support to group using the Bear with Master Architect , which is the only class this can be done with . They still had something going for them while mDK players slowly accepted their uselessness and left the game or rolled another class . Even MagPlars had a place in progression groups as a res bot but not a mDK ^^

aeowulf

Knowledge wrote: »

The DK has no role besides tank once this goes live. Even the tank role is being contended for by the Warden. I understand Warden isn't a better tank but if any more changes occur it could be.

All classes should be viable in every role. Sorc/Templar & NB are not even vaguely in a position to be considered for tanking end game, and in some cases even regular vet 4 man content. The gap is HUGE in the role of tank, just as it is in the role of healer. People shout about DPS being a few % out. Did you see Gilliams video showing magDK DPS went UP with dragon bone? when did you last see a non-DK/warden tank in group finder? In vet content i've not seen a single NB or templar in atleast 6 months, one sorc. Yet i've seen lots of wardens and a literally tons of DK. (going by estimated average player weight!) I have seen a templar tank in a normal dungeon.

Whilst there will always be a 'best' in every situation in every role, every class should be able to perform adequatley in every role. DK are undoubtably the best tank in the game, so much so that only warden can contend. The other classes should also be able to contend for this role, as much as DK should be able to contend for DPS/healer roles. There is a much greater disparity in the tak/heal roles than DPS, and yet the foums jump around about DPS way more than the other roles.

I fear blancing will wait until the class lines are all split out into tank, heal, dps trees.

coplannb16_ESO

problem is: viable != competetive

you can and will be able to do all content with a mag DK, but for endgame raid groups and scores why bother with a mDK? It was already weaker in every aspect and is going to be even weaker next patch.

4 sec off-balance window every 15 seconds or so = 2 heavy attacks with doubled resource return for everyone OR 1 power lash (1-1.5 second animation, 3 sec cooldown) and 0 heavy attacks most of the time for a DK (at melee range).

basically all lashs are dead weight on any bar for DK then.

Now our other class skills are still melee/low range, way more expensive and do no offer much utility in comparison to other classes.
an mDK competes with either a stamina class (if melee range) or with mSorc and mNB at range. It loses at every range and in every setup.
If Embers and Engulfing Flames (however you balance the cone of it) had 28m range Id still think mNB and mSorc would pull better numbers and sustain better. Id suggest in the past to have Embers inherit the range of the weapon used (so S/B users keep it at melee range, staff users get a ranged DOT at 28m), but whatever.
Now if we stay melee range we need something to compensate in terms of risk versus reward. If we are a LA point blank caster then we should be a real threat there with awesome DPS and burst. But guess who does it better in PvP (mNB) and still any magicka class (except maybe Warden, although Iv seen a 40K raid parse video by someone) is better...


and yes, due to better passives and sustain a warden tank outperforms a DK tank imho.

aeowulf

i'm not sure warden has better sustain or tanking passives. I am pretty sure it could be argued both ways depending on regen gear. DK have an amazing way of turning magicka into stamina whilst providing superb group shields. Both classes get an AE root and a way of getting mobs into root range.

Thing is in a DPS roles the DK is in a position where they CAN compete. A particularly skilled player will still have greater DPS than a less skilled sorc, for example. This is not the case in the DK healer role, or tank role for some other classes.

MLGProPlayer

Knowledge wrote: »

As we all know MMORPGs are all about numbers. If someone is seeking meta builds and optimal group compositions for maximum damage, sustain, and reduction of time for a given dungeon or trial, why bring a DK?

This is something that Zenimax needs to consider when balancing classes. The imbalance and nerfs mainly impact the upper 1% of players doing Trials, Vet Trials, and Veteran Hardmodes. Of course, anyone that just runs around the overland and does normal dungeons will never care about the DK Nerf and likely runs some weird combination of gear.

The DK has no role besides tank once this goes live. Even the tank role is being contended for by the Warden. I understand Warden isn't a better tank but if any more changes occur it could be.

Funny that you mention the warden, which is both a worse tank and DD class than DK (and a worse healer than templar).

Saint_Bud

LiquidPony wrote: »

On the other hand, DKs are arguably over-performing in the end game right now.

The top MoL score on NA has 5 DKs in the group. The top HoF score on EU has 6 DKs in the group. For the past 6 months, the PvE meta has basically been: "as many stamDKs as you can realistically cram into a group."

All stam builds except stamblades are going to take a hit from the off balance nerf. I'd wager that stamDKs will still be a very desirable end game build next patch.

You right, stam dk will still be a very good for a raid group after the patch as its now. You better should say, why are the other classes not as good and what makes them bad. Since morrowind or befor, depends on role, some classes are absolut *** and there were nothing to help them. There are a lot of people out there that dont want to play a dk tank or a templar healer and for a long time dont play them because other classes in this role were taken in progress groups in trials in thouse patches.

Chilly-McFreeze

From a meta perspective why would you take anything other but dk for a tank?

Tannus15

From a META perspective, shouldn't there always be 1 stam class, 1 range class, 1 tank class and 1 healer class? And maybe in a full raid 1 slot for support.

Seriously, that's the point of META right, the theoretical best at that role even if it's only by the slimmest of margins?

So if we have 5 classes and 3.5 roles...

BigBadVolk

To make him/her suffer!

IZZEFlameLash

By amazing you mean waste 3k+ magicka for 900 or less stamina unless you are stam which still doesn't convert enough unlike Dark Deal. The group shield is not significant unless you really build for it and that is just a niche and in most cases, undesirable spec to have in PvE raid settings. Why would anyone take mDK DPS into their group with this change?

Nelson_Rebel

Dk's will only be tanks now.

Everyone not a tank will simply be sub par, wasted slots in every capacity.