The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
• PC/Mac: NA megaserver for maintenance – April 25, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 2:00PM EDT (18:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Nightblade Sap Tank... still dead?
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OneKhajiitCrimeWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭Peekachu99 wrote: »Mangeli200194 wrote: »Only you can blockcast the 1 and can t blockcast the other one since its a channeled ability plus vamp on tank is a very bad idea in most harder dungeons /trials
Are you serious? Undeath passive and CP completely trivialize any fire damage. Also Meditate (new skill, available to all) with the FULL protection morph is still way better than the changed Cloak morph. There is no reason to slot this on your bar unless you are bad at theorycrafting. Literally none.
Have you hax the chance to play around with the skill yet?
That skill will drop block. Resource regeneration isn't something we lack and a heal which gives minor protection is well worth testing thoroughly. The wording will be key but overall we're still talking about making an unused skill more viable.
Also, Theory crafting means little. Any Build Creator will tell you that. I'd rather suck at theory crafting and be a good build creator.
A theory crafter limits themselves by what they think about a particular set or skill (bias). A build creator uses the full playbook. Do they end up in the same place? Sometimes, but not always.Dark Flare is the Beginning, Radiant is the End. Hail the Light Bringers!1 -
jypcy✭✭✭✭✭I mean, vamp drain still requires you to drop block, even if temporarily, which might be an issue for some tanks. Also, if you block cancel vamp drain, you get:
-20% missing health
-5 ulti
If you use the proposed dark cloak (which you should be able to while blocking, unless zos messes that up lol), for ~50% increased cost from vamp drain, you get:
-34% MAX health
-minor protection
-major resolve
-major ward
-(passive 3% additional health)
I’m also hesitant to speak too much on meditate, but that has been said to be several thousand resources a second (so if only left on for 1 tick, weaker than dark cloak and situationally stronger than vamp drain). No word on how expensive it’ll be, does grant major protection but requires you to drop block. Some Psijic passives could be useful but I haven’t heard whether they’ll require an ability on the bar or not.
So dark cloak as proposed definitely has value, at least from a pve tank perspective (which I believe this thread is for? Could be wrong). Imo the only reason you’d slot vamp drain over dark cloak is for the ult gen (which is valid). But if you think dark cloak is too costly, then theorycraft your build to have more mag regen. Idk what the issue is.0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mean, vamp drain still requires you to drop block, even if temporarily, which might be an issue for some tanks. Also, if you block cancel vamp drain, you get:
-20% missing health
-5 ulti
If you use the proposed dark cloak (which you should be able to while blocking, unless zos messes that up lol), for ~50% increased cost from vamp drain, you get:
-34% MAX health
-minor protection
-major resolve
-major ward
-(passive 3% additional health)
I’m also hesitant to speak too much on meditate, but that has been said to be several thousand resources a second (so if only left on for 1 tick, weaker than dark cloak and situationally stronger than vamp drain). No word on how expensive it’ll be, does grant major protection but requires you to drop block. Some Psijic passives could be useful but I haven’t heard whether they’ll require an ability on the bar or not.
So dark cloak as proposed definitely has value, at least from a pve tank perspective (which I believe this thread is for? Could be wrong). Imo the only reason you’d slot vamp drain over dark cloak is for the ult gen (which is valid). But if you think dark cloak is too costly, then theorycraft your build to have more mag regen. Idk what the issue is.
Mediate has no cost. It is a channel. Again, better in every regard.0 -
jypcy✭✭✭✭✭Except for situations where you can’t afford to channel, unless it has a built in cc immunity. But like said, details on meditate are still very vague from the sources I’ve read on it. If you have a source that gives more specific numbers, I’d be happy to read it so I can debate about it better (and maybe it’ll even convince me that it’s universally better!). Until then, I’ll still maintain that the proposed dark cloak design definitely has use.
Edit: reread “not interrupted by incoming damage,” which if you’re going off of that I could see how you could get cc immunity. In my mind that just means that other forms of cc can still interrupt it, but it’s not like that quick draw from random archer mob is going to break your concentration.Edited by jypcy on April 10, 2018 6:42PM0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Leeching/ Bahraha’s/ Malubeth and you couldn’t die even if you rubber-banded your controller on a boss fight. Plus all the NB passive and siphons. If you mean actual leeching strikes, the skill, that’s pretty dead but also unnecessary in a self-sustain build anyhow.
I still want to see a proper health-scaling magika shield on a NB tank. That’s the only thing in their kit they’re missing and it should be that instead of the new (garbage) cloak.
That new cloak allows us to slot a strong heal and access to a buff we don't get as easily.
While i'd like a health scaling shield, look at what they plan to give us/what we'll have:
A heal for 33% of health/missing health (can't remember how it was worded)
Minor protection
In built fast ultimate generation
Minor vitality
Minor and Major ward
Minor and Major resolve
Major evasion
Access to resource sustain unlike some other tanks (not as massive as DK returns from ulti but i can light attack for both Stamina, Magicka and Health back)
An AoE minor maim.
The jewellery crafting is more a buff to NB tanks than most others because it allows the sort of shenanigans that i usually only find in sorc tank builds.
Our toolkit got expanded and you're still trying to claw for more or judge a skill before we even get to play with it?
Healing was never an issue with NB tanks (Leeching/ sap/ drain). Actual damage prevention has always been their weakness. Also in PVP that heal is next to useless with defile spam and standard PVP downscaling. They are literally the only class that doesn’t have a shield. Out of five classes. If they’re homogenizing roles, that’s a grave oversight.
It would depend on how you set your tank up as to how useful this is for you. In PvE that cloak looks to be strong (we haven't tested it yet). I currently have a flex spot where i use bone surge in trickier content because it's better than most others and provides synergies for group utility. Besides, i can recover the 3.7k cost pretty easily.
For PvP most health based shields aren't very good. We lack a class based damage shield, as do Wardens. Wardens have a spell projectile shield. Would i like a class shield? Maybe, but not at the expense of a skill we haven't even tested yet and looks to be beneficial.
I refuse to cry over what makes us different, good or bad.
We have so much in our toolkit. How many other classes as tanks can boast major evasion since the shuffle change? Or match our Ultimate generation? Or how about our ability to get back resources through lights and heavies?
Only the Sorc tank has easier access to minor resolve and minor ward. Our best access to major ward and resolve grants us Major expedition and heals us.
We currently lack an AoE minor maim but we're getting it if they keep the change to shade. As well as Minor protection.
NB tanks may not be easy to play, but we are not weak. NB tanks are rare today because they take skill to play well. ZOS took away the sap tank and those of us who remained built solid, well rounded tanks and we'll only get stronger.
Clearly you don’t play tanks in PVP, since Sun/ Igneous are among the strongest shields in the game for PVP tanks. Wardens do not lack a damage shield, it only shields them from projectiles, though it still scales from health (or highest resource—usually health for tanks) as do other tank shields.
Also, NB/ standard major evasion is a 1/6.66 chance of dodging a hit. That’s not great and requies, you guessed it, multiple things wailing on you at once. It becomes laughable in small scale PVE or PVP battles and passable in large scale battles, though the drain on resources will be higher in the latter so a shield—raw prevention—would ALWAYS be better. And if we’re going down the route of who does evasion best, wardens with their Falcon’s Swiftness, which either Stam or Mag would use, get a full 20% (1/5). Also, if you go the Magwarden major/ minor evade build with Gossamer, you can apply that buff to your entire team! Higher dodge on yourself and dodge to the group (since leeching vines or your healing ult is certainly in play).
I’ve been playing a NB tank since launch and I’m well aware of the ins and outs of the class. It’s not in a great place, and a burst heal—which they’ve never needed given their sustain—is not a wise choice for a skill. And as I’ve mentioned to someone else in this thread, the ZERO cost Mediation skill will always be preferred in PVE since it offers Major Protection and ignores the need to block at all.
0 -
MacCait✭✭✭✭✭
✭OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Mangeli200194 wrote: »Only you can blockcast the 1 and can t blockcast the other one since its a channeled ability plus vamp on tank is a very bad idea in most harder dungeons /trials
Are you serious? Undeath passive and CP completely trivialize any fire damage. Also Meditate (new skill, available to all) with the FULL protection morph is still way better than the changed Cloak morph. There is no reason to slot this on your bar unless you are bad at theorycrafting. Literally none.
Have you hax the chance to play around with the skill yet?
That skill will drop block. Resource regeneration isn't something we lack and a heal which gives minor protection is well worth testing thoroughly. The wording will be key but overall we're still talking about making an unused skill more viable.
Also, Theory crafting means little. Any Build Creator will tell you that. I'd rather suck at theory crafting and be a good build creator.
A theory crafter limits themselves by what they think about a particular set or skill (bias). A build creator uses the full playbook. Do they end up in the same place? Sometimes, but not always.
These are just labels... just words... symantics
What is a build creator specifically? how does that differ to a theory crafter? why? where does it say this and who wrote the rule book on that?
Theory crafting comes first, then testing, then you've made your build... right?
At end of the day one person can say hey I'm a theoryy crafter, or hey i'm a build creator 1 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nightblade tanks may be making a comeback with summerset.
-dark cloak now heals for 32% of your max health and gives minor protection but no longer makes you invisible.
-psijic skill meditation rapidly restores your health, magicka, and stamina while channeling, and could be the nightblade answer to sustainability when combined with shield wall.
-psijic skill slow time is an aoe slow and stun that could solve the nightblade issue of area crowd control.
-dark shade will now apply aoe minor maim.
-silver leash from fighters guild will be a pull similar to dk chainsEdited by Lynx7386 on April 10, 2018 6:49PMPS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Mangeli200194 wrote: »Only you can blockcast the 1 and can t blockcast the other one since its a channeled ability plus vamp on tank is a very bad idea in most harder dungeons /trials
Are you serious? Undeath passive and CP completely trivialize any fire damage. Also Meditate (new skill, available to all) with the FULL protection morph is still way better than the changed Cloak morph. There is no reason to slot this on your bar unless you are bad at theorycrafting. Literally none.
Have you hax the chance to play around with the skill yet?
That skill will drop block. Resource regeneration isn't something we lack and a heal which gives minor protection is well worth testing thoroughly. The wording will be key but overall we're still talking about making an unused skill more viable.
Also, Theory crafting means little. Any Build Creator will tell you that. I'd rather suck at theory crafting and be a good build creator.
A theory crafter limits themselves by what they think about a particular set or skill (bias). A build creator uses the full playbook. Do they end up in the same place? Sometimes, but not always.
Drops block but offers major protection. Do this for me: go into any vet dungeon with 40K HP and max resistances, proc pirate skeleton (or any other means of major protection) and DON’T block a boss heavy attack. 9 times out of 10 you will live. This works for EVERY boss in CoS, Chudan’s spit in RoM, the Minotaur and the last bosses in Bloodforge. I know, because I’ve literally done exactly this. Really anything and everything in that doesn’t ignore armor entirely can be soaked with major protection. So yes, I can ‘theorycraft’, and soon ‘experience’ just how powerful Mediation will be in PVE and situationally in PVP. Because the statistics and metrics are already in the game.0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Except for situations where you can’t afford to channel, unless it has a built in cc immunity. But like said, details on meditate are still very vague from the sources I’ve read on it. If you have a source that gives more specific numbers, I’d be happy to read it so I can debate about it better (and maybe it’ll even convince me that it’s universally better!). Until then, I’ll still maintain that the proposed dark cloak design definitely has use.
Edit: reread “not interrupted by incoming damage,” which if you’re going off of that I could see how you could get cc immunity. In my mind that just means that other forms of cc can still interrupt it, but it’s not like that quick draw from random archer mob is going to break your concentration.
If someone bashes you while Meditating, you can do it again in 3s once the cool down wears off and NOT be interrupted. For maximum trolling (in PVP) alternate Vamp Drain, and instant HoT, and Meditate ftw.1 -
OneKhajiitCrimeWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Leeching/ Bahraha’s/ Malubeth and you couldn’t die even if you rubber-banded your controller on a boss fight. Plus all the NB passive and siphons. If you mean actual leeching strikes, the skill, that’s pretty dead but also unnecessary in a self-sustain build anyhow.
I still want to see a proper health-scaling magika shield on a NB tank. That’s the only thing in their kit they’re missing and it should be that instead of the new (garbage) cloak.
That new cloak allows us to slot a strong heal and access to a buff we don't get as easily.
While i'd like a health scaling shield, look at what they plan to give us/what we'll have:
A heal for 33% of health/missing health (can't remember how it was worded)
Minor protection
In built fast ultimate generation
Minor vitality
Minor and Major ward
Minor and Major resolve
Major evasion
Access to resource sustain unlike some other tanks (not as massive as DK returns from ulti but i can light attack for both Stamina, Magicka and Health back)
An AoE minor maim.
The jewellery crafting is more a buff to NB tanks than most others because it allows the sort of shenanigans that i usually only find in sorc tank builds.
Our toolkit got expanded and you're still trying to claw for more or judge a skill before we even get to play with it?
Healing was never an issue with NB tanks (Leeching/ sap/ drain). Actual damage prevention has always been their weakness. Also in PVP that heal is next to useless with defile spam and standard PVP downscaling. They are literally the only class that doesn’t have a shield. Out of five classes. If they’re homogenizing roles, that’s a grave oversight.
It would depend on how you set your tank up as to how useful this is for you. In PvE that cloak looks to be strong (we haven't tested it yet). I currently have a flex spot where i use bone surge in trickier content because it's better than most others and provides synergies for group utility. Besides, i can recover the 3.7k cost pretty easily.
For PvP most health based shields aren't very good. We lack a class based damage shield, as do Wardens. Wardens have a spell projectile shield. Would i like a class shield? Maybe, but not at the expense of a skill we haven't even tested yet and looks to be beneficial.
I refuse to cry over what makes us different, good or bad.
We have so much in our toolkit. How many other classes as tanks can boast major evasion since the shuffle change? Or match our Ultimate generation? Or how about our ability to get back resources through lights and heavies?
Only the Sorc tank has easier access to minor resolve and minor ward. Our best access to major ward and resolve grants us Major expedition and heals us.
We currently lack an AoE minor maim but we're getting it if they keep the change to shade. As well as Minor protection.
NB tanks may not be easy to play, but we are not weak. NB tanks are rare today because they take skill to play well. ZOS took away the sap tank and those of us who remained built solid, well rounded tanks and we'll only get stronger.
Clearly you don’t play tanks in PVP, since Sun/ Igneous are among the strongest shields in the game for PVP tanks. Wardens do not lack a damage shield, it only shields them from projectiles, though it still scales from health (or highest resource—usually health for tanks) as do other tank shields.
Also, NB/ standard major evasion is a 1/6.66 chance of dodging a hit. That’s not great and requies, you guessed it, multiple things wailing on you at once. It becomes laughable in small scale PVE or PVP battles and passable in large scale battles, though the drain on resources will be higher in the latter so a shield—raw prevention—would ALWAYS be better. And if we’re going down the route of who does evasion best, wardens with their Falcon’s Swiftness, which either Stam or Mag would use, get a full 20% (1/5). Also, if you go the Magwarden major/ minor evade build with Gossamer, you can apply that buff to your entire team! Higher dodge on yourself and dodge to the group (since leeching vines or your healing ult is certainly in play).
I’ve been playing a NB tank since launch and I’m well aware of the ins and outs of the class. It’s not in a great place, and a burst heal—which they’ve never needed given their sustain—is not a wise choice for a skill. And as I’ve mentioned to someone else in this thread, the ZERO cost Mediation skill will always be preferred in PVE since it offers Major Protection and ignores the need to block at all.
So, you've played a NB tank since launch (waits for applause). In your time in game you may have noticed that there is more than one way to set up any class and role.
Your NB tank may not need access to a burst heal. Mine will use it for the minor protection as far as we know from the limited information. Yours is spec'd to survive by mass heals but currently lacks a pull in. mine is designed to have higher health and stack ads.
Now for meditate. Do you HONESTLY think the Dev's would give access to a skill with ZERO draw backs?
So it gives major protection, and can give thousands of resources back per second if the rumours are to be believed. Do you think they'll let us have that for tanks without risk? I'm waiting for the natch potes and PTS to pass judgement on that skill. I'd guess at a LONG cooldown or something to stop it being overpowered and abused.
With the new version of cloak we have a rough guide on it, such as cost, amounts given and drawbacks.
You're advocating a skill without all of the information. Never theorise without the correct information to base it on. You may well be correct that meditate is the way to go. Just don't be surprised if the powerful skill is reigned in by a limitation applied on it.Dark Flare is the Beginning, Radiant is the End. Hail the Light Bringers!0 -
jypcy✭✭✭✭✭lol yeah, from when I have pvped I’ve experienced how annoying the people who basically just spam vamp drain on you off cc immunity cd are. In current patch I’d just kill them when I have cc immunity, but if they’ll be able to cocoon in the maj protection meditate until they’re able to stun again, yeah I can see how that could get super trolly super fast.
Also, again, coming at this from an endgame pve tank perspective, where it’s not ideal to rely on procs and in some situations, surviving an intended 1 shot just puts you in a very bad spot to survive the other heavy attack coming your way. If meditate is full on cc immunity (save to bashes, which I haven’t noticed a lot of trials bosses doing haha), then I’ll concede that it’s better than dark cloak probably 4 out of 5 times. Especially if your war horn isn’t needed in the rotation so you can pop shield ult instead and have block up while meditating, that’s gonna be stupid good. Still, a burst heal is a burst heal. I’m excited to play around with both dark cloak and meditate.0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Leeching/ Bahraha’s/ Malubeth and you couldn’t die even if you rubber-banded your controller on a boss fight. Plus all the NB passive and siphons. If you mean actual leeching strikes, the skill, that’s pretty dead but also unnecessary in a self-sustain build anyhow.
I still want to see a proper health-scaling magika shield on a NB tank. That’s the only thing in their kit they’re missing and it should be that instead of the new (garbage) cloak.
That new cloak allows us to slot a strong heal and access to a buff we don't get as easily.
While i'd like a health scaling shield, look at what they plan to give us/what we'll have:
A heal for 33% of health/missing health (can't remember how it was worded)
Minor protection
In built fast ultimate generation
Minor vitality
Minor and Major ward
Minor and Major resolve
Major evasion
Access to resource sustain unlike some other tanks (not as massive as DK returns from ulti but i can light attack for both Stamina, Magicka and Health back)
An AoE minor maim.
The jewellery crafting is more a buff to NB tanks than most others because it allows the sort of shenanigans that i usually only find in sorc tank builds.
Our toolkit got expanded and you're still trying to claw for more or judge a skill before we even get to play with it?
Healing was never an issue with NB tanks (Leeching/ sap/ drain). Actual damage prevention has always been their weakness. Also in PVP that heal is next to useless with defile spam and standard PVP downscaling. They are literally the only class that doesn’t have a shield. Out of five classes. If they’re homogenizing roles, that’s a grave oversight.
It would depend on how you set your tank up as to how useful this is for you. In PvE that cloak looks to be strong (we haven't tested it yet). I currently have a flex spot where i use bone surge in trickier content because it's better than most others and provides synergies for group utility. Besides, i can recover the 3.7k cost pretty easily.
For PvP most health based shields aren't very good. We lack a class based damage shield, as do Wardens. Wardens have a spell projectile shield. Would i like a class shield? Maybe, but not at the expense of a skill we haven't even tested yet and looks to be beneficial.
I refuse to cry over what makes us different, good or bad.
We have so much in our toolkit. How many other classes as tanks can boast major evasion since the shuffle change? Or match our Ultimate generation? Or how about our ability to get back resources through lights and heavies?
Only the Sorc tank has easier access to minor resolve and minor ward. Our best access to major ward and resolve grants us Major expedition and heals us.
We currently lack an AoE minor maim but we're getting it if they keep the change to shade. As well as Minor protection.
NB tanks may not be easy to play, but we are not weak. NB tanks are rare today because they take skill to play well. ZOS took away the sap tank and those of us who remained built solid, well rounded tanks and we'll only get stronger.
Clearly you don’t play tanks in PVP, since Sun/ Igneous are among the strongest shields in the game for PVP tanks. Wardens do not lack a damage shield, it only shields them from projectiles, though it still scales from health (or highest resource—usually health for tanks) as do other tank shields.
Also, NB/ standard major evasion is a 1/6.66 chance of dodging a hit. That’s not great and requies, you guessed it, multiple things wailing on you at once. It becomes laughable in small scale PVE or PVP battles and passable in large scale battles, though the drain on resources will be higher in the latter so a shield—raw prevention—would ALWAYS be better. And if we’re going down the route of who does evasion best, wardens with their Falcon’s Swiftness, which either Stam or Mag would use, get a full 20% (1/5). Also, if you go the Magwarden major/ minor evade build with Gossamer, you can apply that buff to your entire team! Higher dodge on yourself and dodge to the group (since leeching vines or your healing ult is certainly in play).
I’ve been playing a NB tank since launch and I’m well aware of the ins and outs of the class. It’s not in a great place, and a burst heal—which they’ve never needed given their sustain—is not a wise choice for a skill. And as I’ve mentioned to someone else in this thread, the ZERO cost Mediation skill will always be preferred in PVE since it offers Major Protection and ignores the need to block at all.
So, you've played a NB tank since launch (waits for applause). In your time in game you may have noticed that there is more than one way to set up any class and role.
Your NB tank may not need access to a burst heal. Mine will use it for the minor protection as far as we know from the limited information. Yours is spec'd to survive by mass heals but currently lacks a pull in. mine is designed to have higher health and stack ads.
Now for meditate. Do you HONESTLY think the Dev's would give access to a skill with ZERO draw backs?
So it gives major protection, and can give thousands of resources back per second if the rumours are to be believed. Do you think they'll let us have that for tanks without risk? I'm waiting for the natch potes and PTS to pass judgement on that skill. I'd guess at a LONG cooldown or something to stop it being overpowered and abused.
With the new version of cloak we have a rough guide on it, such as cost, amounts given and drawbacks.
You're advocating a skill without all of the information. Never theorise without the correct information to base it on. You may well be correct that meditate is the way to go. Just don't be surprised if the powerful skill is reigned in by a limitation applied on it.
Would be helpful if you actually offered any kind of facts or metrics instead of ad hominem attacks. I can’t take you seriously, otherwise. It’s not helpful how you dismiss people who have experience and who are saying things based on practical testing and experience because they do not support your argument.
Furthermore, I’m speaking about what was shared from the PTS preview, and rarely do things drastically change during a PTS cycle. I would expect these skills to launch pretty much as has been already described.
P.S. Regarding the bold, I literally haven’t spoken about a single build of mine other than the to offer the OP advice on a standard Malubeth/ Bahara’s/ Flex setup, which it the bread and butter of any NB tank build—outside of dedicated Trials ones which are all the same. Yes, you can “play your way”, but don’t involve yourself in efficiency and minmaxing discussions when you clearly don’t aim for those things yourself. If you’re a NB tank who “needs” a burst heal or minor protection (multiplicative, not additive btw) that says some really interesting things about your build and mentality.
It’s best that we don’t engage from here on out since we have such conflicting ideas of design and efficiency.Edited by Peekachu99 on April 10, 2018 7:13PM0 -
_Salty_✭✭✭✭✭Sap tank isn't dead.......its just resting its eyes.....right?...Psn l---Salty---l
Patiently waiting to make a Stankcromancer.0 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭Peekachu99 wrote: »Mangeli200194 wrote: »Only you can blockcast the 1 and can t blockcast the other one since its a channeled ability plus vamp on tank is a very bad idea in most harder dungeons /trials
Are you serious? Undeath passive and CP completely trivialize any fire damage. Also Meditate (new skill, available to all) with the FULL protection morph is still way better than the changed Cloak morph. There is no reason to slot this on your bar unless you are bad at theorycrafting. Literally none.
@Peekachu99
Thanks but id rather not get 25% more damage while tanking for example WGT, vDSA, vCoA, etc. . And while cp and Undeath mitigate any extra fire damage youll still take 25% more then a non vampire tank.. So thanks ill pass on running around as a palefaced bloodsucker.
Thats like running sanctum orphidea as a werewolf. Possible yes but not advisable sry.
25% extra damage means your basically taking as much damage as if you´d be running around naked. So definetly no thanks...
P. S. You dont get the full undeath passive as soon as you slip below 50% hp it starts at 1% and you only get the full mitigation when you are short before dying(at that point at least the healers i run with will definetly be paniking and spamming bol, spending tons of resources to keep your hp full.) so naaaaah ill pass on vampire
Xbox-EU-AD
Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.0 -
OneKhajiitCrimeWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Leeching/ Bahraha’s/ Malubeth and you couldn’t die even if you rubber-banded your controller on a boss fight. Plus all the NB passive and siphons. If you mean actual leeching strikes, the skill, that’s pretty dead but also unnecessary in a self-sustain build anyhow.
I still want to see a proper health-scaling magika shield on a NB tank. That’s the only thing in their kit they’re missing and it should be that instead of the new (garbage) cloak.
That new cloak allows us to slot a strong heal and access to a buff we don't get as easily.
While i'd like a health scaling shield, look at what they plan to give us/what we'll have:
A heal for 33% of health/missing health (can't remember how it was worded)
Minor protection
In built fast ultimate generation
Minor vitality
Minor and Major ward
Minor and Major resolve
Major evasion
Access to resource sustain unlike some other tanks (not as massive as DK returns from ulti but i can light attack for both Stamina, Magicka and Health back)
An AoE minor maim.
The jewellery crafting is more a buff to NB tanks than most others because it allows the sort of shenanigans that i usually only find in sorc tank builds.
Our toolkit got expanded and you're still trying to claw for more or judge a skill before we even get to play with it?
Healing was never an issue with NB tanks (Leeching/ sap/ drain). Actual damage prevention has always been their weakness. Also in PVP that heal is next to useless with defile spam and standard PVP downscaling. They are literally the only class that doesn’t have a shield. Out of five classes. If they’re homogenizing roles, that’s a grave oversight.
It would depend on how you set your tank up as to how useful this is for you. In PvE that cloak looks to be strong (we haven't tested it yet). I currently have a flex spot where i use bone surge in trickier content because it's better than most others and provides synergies for group utility. Besides, i can recover the 3.7k cost pretty easily.
For PvP most health based shields aren't very good. We lack a class based damage shield, as do Wardens. Wardens have a spell projectile shield. Would i like a class shield? Maybe, but not at the expense of a skill we haven't even tested yet and looks to be beneficial.
I refuse to cry over what makes us different, good or bad.
We have so much in our toolkit. How many other classes as tanks can boast major evasion since the shuffle change? Or match our Ultimate generation? Or how about our ability to get back resources through lights and heavies?
Only the Sorc tank has easier access to minor resolve and minor ward. Our best access to major ward and resolve grants us Major expedition and heals us.
We currently lack an AoE minor maim but we're getting it if they keep the change to shade. As well as Minor protection.
NB tanks may not be easy to play, but we are not weak. NB tanks are rare today because they take skill to play well. ZOS took away the sap tank and those of us who remained built solid, well rounded tanks and we'll only get stronger.
Clearly you don’t play tanks in PVP, since Sun/ Igneous are among the strongest shields in the game for PVP tanks. Wardens do not lack a damage shield, it only shields them from projectiles, though it still scales from health (or highest resource—usually health for tanks) as do other tank shields.
Also, NB/ standard major evasion is a 1/6.66 chance of dodging a hit. That’s not great and requies, you guessed it, multiple things wailing on you at once. It becomes laughable in small scale PVE or PVP battles and passable in large scale battles, though the drain on resources will be higher in the latter so a shield—raw prevention—would ALWAYS be better. And if we’re going down the route of who does evasion best, wardens with their Falcon’s Swiftness, which either Stam or Mag would use, get a full 20% (1/5). Also, if you go the Magwarden major/ minor evade build with Gossamer, you can apply that buff to your entire team! Higher dodge on yourself and dodge to the group (since leeching vines or your healing ult is certainly in play).
I’ve been playing a NB tank since launch and I’m well aware of the ins and outs of the class. It’s not in a great place, and a burst heal—which they’ve never needed given their sustain—is not a wise choice for a skill. And as I’ve mentioned to someone else in this thread, the ZERO cost Mediation skill will always be preferred in PVE since it offers Major Protection and ignores the need to block at all.
So, you've played a NB tank since launch (waits for applause). In your time in game you may have noticed that there is more than one way to set up any class and role.
Your NB tank may not need access to a burst heal. Mine will use it for the minor protection as far as we know from the limited information. Yours is spec'd to survive by mass heals but currently lacks a pull in. mine is designed to have higher health and stack ads.
Now for meditate. Do you HONESTLY think the Dev's would give access to a skill with ZERO draw backs?
So it gives major protection, and can give thousands of resources back per second if the rumours are to be believed. Do you think they'll let us have that for tanks without risk? I'm waiting for the natch potes and PTS to pass judgement on that skill. I'd guess at a LONG cooldown or something to stop it being overpowered and abused.
With the new version of cloak we have a rough guide on it, such as cost, amounts given and drawbacks.
You're advocating a skill without all of the information. Never theorise without the correct information to base it on. You may well be correct that meditate is the way to go. Just don't be surprised if the powerful skill is reigned in by a limitation applied on it.
Would be helpful if you actually offered any kind of facts or metrics instead of ad hominem attacks. I can’t take you seriously, otherwise. It’s not helpful how you dismiss people who have experience and who are saying things based on practical testing and experience because they do not support your argument.
Furthermore, I’m speaking about what was shared from the PTS preview, and rarely do things drastically change during a PTS cycle. I would expect these skills to launch pretty much as has been already described.
P.S. Regarding the bold, I literally haven’t spoken about a single build of mine other than the to offer the OP advice on a standard Malubeth/ Bahara’s/ Flex setup, which it the bread and butter of any NB tank build—outside of dedicated Trials ones which are all the same. Yes, you can “play your way”, but don’t involve yourself in efficiency and minmaxing discussions when you clearly don’t aim for those things yourself. If you’re a NB tank who “needs” a burst heal or minor protection (multiplicative, not additive btw) that says some really interesting things about your build and mentality.
It’s best that we don’t engage from here on out since we have such conflicting ideas of design and efficiency.
So you quote the MAIN build, which again lacks the ability to efficiently pull in targets for PvE purposes and is designed for large self heals from gear. This is the information that statement was based on. If this is not what you run then please provide further details as to what you do run. I mean, if you've been playinga NB tank since launch then you obviously must have some experience with it. Share to the conversation.
Furthermore my tank doesn't NEED a burst heal or the minor protection. It currently functions just fine without it. But if ZOS are going to give me another way to further reduce incoming damage or provide me an "oh s***" button that is actually useful i'm not turning it away.
Does a DK Tank NEED Green Dragon Blood? No. Do they slot it anyway? Yes.
You have base information based on what has been noted. Have costs, have drawbacks, have EXACT figures been spoken about in clear terms?
Additionally do you think the dev team doesn’t anticipate the potential abuse of such a skill for tanks? They had 12 people, many of which (don't know them all so won't say definitely all) have a VERY good grasp of this game.
During that play testing do you think that Woeler, Xynode, Gilliam etc wouldn't have noted how open to abuse it is if there's no drawback? Have any of them come back and said that the skill is massively overpowered? Doesn't seem it.
You mention efficiency and min-maxing (VERY rarely applies to tanks as you need both Stamina and Magicka) and yet you apparently lack the information to make that decision.
Tell me, a tank over cap resists when buffed, 48k health and decent sized pools of Stamina and Magicka and the ability to efficiently pull in the range. Where's the inefficiency? Where's my tanks drawbacks? My tank is as optimised and balanced as pretty much any you'll find.
"Min-Maxing" is not the be all and end all of this game and if you don’t believe that then kindly go see a certain Khajiit tank (not min-maxed and still deemed one of the best tanks, if not the best tank in this game).Edited by OneKhajiitCrimeWave on April 10, 2018 8:42PMDark Flare is the Beginning, Radiant is the End. Hail the Light Bringers!2 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭Just hang on till summer set. With the changes to silver leash of FG skill line and the changes to dark cloak and shades, the best way to tank with a nb is with magicka.
My own theory craft goes like this:
- Tava favour + Akaviri dragon guard with Malubeth or Engine or Blood spawn.
- Argonian ftw.
- snb front bar, lightning staff backbar
- Pierce Armor, dark cloak, silver leash, Mirage, absorb magic with warhorn as ult front bar
- elemental blockade, shades, inner fire, SAP essence, swallow soul with bolstering darkness for ult back bar.
Great uptime on ult gen, slightly selfish since there is no ebon but ultimately as long as the off tank wears it, its good enough for the trial. Nbs are still the best class for Tava tanking.
Bolstering darkness gives major protection buff to all allies as long as they have gone through it and the spell is up. In a crutch, that can help group survivability. Veil of blades might be a better tool but in this instant you don't need that additional dps. I played around with soul siphon as it will be given a buff in range from 15 to 28 metres but that build requires a different setup as it is more of heal tank. (though it works too.)
An initial aggro check with sap essence would work wonders. Shades and dark cloak helps with the uptime of major ward and resolve. Elemental blockade uptime for concussion, silver leash for pulls.
For stamina variant of the build, just need to change the offbar setup. The main bar works for both magicka and stamina builds. With the Argonian, pots become such an awesome addition for the class.
The heal tank variant (pseudo sap tank)
- SPC + Light / Heavy / Medium mix Fortified Brass with Lord Warden / Thorvokun
- Argonian or Breton
- snb front bar with frost staff back bar.
- Pierce Armor, Absorb Magic, Dark Cloak, SAP Essence, Mirage with Undo (new Psijic Order ult)
- Elemental Blockade, Healthy Offering, Swallow Soul, Reaper's Mark, Refreshing Path with Soul Tether
Basically the setup is to keep heals up at All times, for SPC proc. Your resistance is above the roof and with Mirage, and Lord warden up... Damage is laughable with all the heals you have anyway. Its not a main tank build though, can still be improved but I think this is a potent mix for nb sap tank.
There's many ways to maintain resource sustain, such as shield ult spam with witch man set, or leeching strike / siphoning strikes with alternate snb frost staff blocking, but don't make perma blocking builds. ZoS has made everything in their power to reduce the amount of perma block so it makes no sense to build for it imho.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!1 -
OneKhajiitCrimeWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tanks that permablock tend to either be newer tanks that over block or tanks that want things all their own way.
EVERY boss in the game has openings to fit in your lights and heavies so permablocking is not needed. Certain bosses obviously have shorter windows (such as the Warrior in vHRC) but they are still there.Dark Flare is the Beginning, Radiant is the End. Hail the Light Bringers!0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Resource management Is most definitely an issue for nightblade tanks - you shouldn't be letting block down to spam light or heavy attacks, and the 20 second wait to get any returns from siphoning kill it for tanks.
Meditation can be used while shield wall is active, giving you 5-6 seconds of free permablock while regaining resources.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mangeli200194 wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Mangeli200194 wrote: »Only you can blockcast the 1 and can t blockcast the other one since its a channeled ability plus vamp on tank is a very bad idea in most harder dungeons /trials
Are you serious? Undeath passive and CP completely trivialize any fire damage. Also Meditate (new skill, available to all) with the FULL protection morph is still way better than the changed Cloak morph. There is no reason to slot this on your bar unless you are bad at theorycrafting. Literally none.
@Peekachu99
Thanks but id rather not get 25% more damage while tanking for example WGT, vDSA, vCoA, etc. . And while cp and Undeath mitigate any extra fire damage youll still take 25% more then a non vampire tank.. So thanks ill pass on running around as a palefaced bloodsucker.
Thats like running sanctum orphidea as a werewolf. Possible yes but not advisable sry.
25% extra damage means your basically taking as much damage as if you´d be running around naked. So definetly no thanks...
P. S. You dont get the full undeath passive as soon as you slip below 50% hp it starts at 1% and you only get the full mitigation when you are short before dying(at that point at least the healers i run with will definetly be paniking and spamming bol, spending tons of resources to keep your hp full.) so naaaaah ill pass on vampire
You’re only taking 25% more damage if you (for whatever weird reason) haven’t invested into CP reduction passives...which would be kinda dumb as a tank.0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Leeching/ Bahraha’s/ Malubeth and you couldn’t die even if you rubber-banded your controller on a boss fight. Plus all the NB passive and siphons. If you mean actual leeching strikes, the skill, that’s pretty dead but also unnecessary in a self-sustain build anyhow.
I still want to see a proper health-scaling magika shield on a NB tank. That’s the only thing in their kit they’re missing and it should be that instead of the new (garbage) cloak.
That new cloak allows us to slot a strong heal and access to a buff we don't get as easily.
While i'd like a health scaling shield, look at what they plan to give us/what we'll have:
A heal for 33% of health/missing health (can't remember how it was worded)
Minor protection
In built fast ultimate generation
Minor vitality
Minor and Major ward
Minor and Major resolve
Major evasion
Access to resource sustain unlike some other tanks (not as massive as DK returns from ulti but i can light attack for both Stamina, Magicka and Health back)
An AoE minor maim.
The jewellery crafting is more a buff to NB tanks than most others because it allows the sort of shenanigans that i usually only find in sorc tank builds.
Our toolkit got expanded and you're still trying to claw for more or judge a skill before we even get to play with it?
Healing was never an issue with NB tanks (Leeching/ sap/ drain). Actual damage prevention has always been their weakness. Also in PVP that heal is next to useless with defile spam and standard PVP downscaling. They are literally the only class that doesn’t have a shield. Out of five classes. If they’re homogenizing roles, that’s a grave oversight.
It would depend on how you set your tank up as to how useful this is for you. In PvE that cloak looks to be strong (we haven't tested it yet). I currently have a flex spot where i use bone surge in trickier content because it's better than most others and provides synergies for group utility. Besides, i can recover the 3.7k cost pretty easily.
For PvP most health based shields aren't very good. We lack a class based damage shield, as do Wardens. Wardens have a spell projectile shield. Would i like a class shield? Maybe, but not at the expense of a skill we haven't even tested yet and looks to be beneficial.
I refuse to cry over what makes us different, good or bad.
We have so much in our toolkit. How many other classes as tanks can boast major evasion since the shuffle change? Or match our Ultimate generation? Or how about our ability to get back resources through lights and heavies?
Only the Sorc tank has easier access to minor resolve and minor ward. Our best access to major ward and resolve grants us Major expedition and heals us.
We currently lack an AoE minor maim but we're getting it if they keep the change to shade. As well as Minor protection.
NB tanks may not be easy to play, but we are not weak. NB tanks are rare today because they take skill to play well. ZOS took away the sap tank and those of us who remained built solid, well rounded tanks and we'll only get stronger.
Clearly you don’t play tanks in PVP, since Sun/ Igneous are among the strongest shields in the game for PVP tanks. Wardens do not lack a damage shield, it only shields them from projectiles, though it still scales from health (or highest resource—usually health for tanks) as do other tank shields.
Also, NB/ standard major evasion is a 1/6.66 chance of dodging a hit. That’s not great and requies, you guessed it, multiple things wailing on you at once. It becomes laughable in small scale PVE or PVP battles and passable in large scale battles, though the drain on resources will be higher in the latter so a shield—raw prevention—would ALWAYS be better. And if we’re going down the route of who does evasion best, wardens with their Falcon’s Swiftness, which either Stam or Mag would use, get a full 20% (1/5). Also, if you go the Magwarden major/ minor evade build with Gossamer, you can apply that buff to your entire team! Higher dodge on yourself and dodge to the group (since leeching vines or your healing ult is certainly in play).
I’ve been playing a NB tank since launch and I’m well aware of the ins and outs of the class. It’s not in a great place, and a burst heal—which they’ve never needed given their sustain—is not a wise choice for a skill. And as I’ve mentioned to someone else in this thread, the ZERO cost Mediation skill will always be preferred in PVE since it offers Major Protection and ignores the need to block at all.
So, you've played a NB tank since launch (waits for applause). In your time in game you may have noticed that there is more than one way to set up any class and role.
Your NB tank may not need access to a burst heal. Mine will use it for the minor protection as far as we know from the limited information. Yours is spec'd to survive by mass heals but currently lacks a pull in. mine is designed to have higher health and stack ads.
Now for meditate. Do you HONESTLY think the Dev's would give access to a skill with ZERO draw backs?
So it gives major protection, and can give thousands of resources back per second if the rumours are to be believed. Do you think they'll let us have that for tanks without risk? I'm waiting for the natch potes and PTS to pass judgement on that skill. I'd guess at a LONG cooldown or something to stop it being overpowered and abused.
With the new version of cloak we have a rough guide on it, such as cost, amounts given and drawbacks.
You're advocating a skill without all of the information. Never theorise without the correct information to base it on. You may well be correct that meditate is the way to go. Just don't be surprised if the powerful skill is reigned in by a limitation applied on it.
Would be helpful if you actually offered any kind of facts or metrics instead of ad hominem attacks. I can’t take you seriously, otherwise. It’s not helpful how you dismiss people who have experience and who are saying things based on practical testing and experience because they do not support your argument.
Furthermore, I’m speaking about what was shared from the PTS preview, and rarely do things drastically change during a PTS cycle. I would expect these skills to launch pretty much as has been already described.
P.S. Regarding the bold, I literally haven’t spoken about a single build of mine other than the to offer the OP advice on a standard Malubeth/ Bahara’s/ Flex setup, which it the bread and butter of any NB tank build—outside of dedicated Trials ones which are all the same. Yes, you can “play your way”, but don’t involve yourself in efficiency and minmaxing discussions when you clearly don’t aim for those things yourself. If you’re a NB tank who “needs” a burst heal or minor protection (multiplicative, not additive btw) that says some really interesting things about your build and mentality.
It’s best that we don’t engage from here on out since we have such conflicting ideas of design and efficiency.
So you quote the MAIN build, which again lacks the ability to efficiently pull in targets for PvE purposes and is designed for large self heals from gear. This is the information that statement was based on. If this is not what you run then please provide further details as to what you do run. I mean, if you've been playinga NB tank since launch then you obviously must have some experience with it. Share to the conversation.
Furthermore my tank doesn't NEED a burst heal or the minor protection. It currently functions just fine without it. But if ZOS are going to give me another way to further reduce incoming damage or provide me an "oh s***" button that is actually useful i'm not turning it away.
Does a DK Tank NEED Green Dragon Blood? No. Do they slot it anyway? Yes.
You have base information based on what has been noted. Have costs, have drawbacks, have EXACT figures been spoken about in clear terms?
Additionally do you think the dev team doesn’t anticipate the potential abuse of such a skill for tanks? They had 12 people, many of which (don't know them all so won't say definitely all) have a VERY good grasp of this game.
During that play testing do you think that Woeler, Xynode, Gilliam etc wouldn't have noted how open to abuse it is if there's no drawback? Have any of them come back and said that the skill is massively overpowered? Doesn't seem it.
You mention efficiency and min-maxing (VERY rarely applies to tanks as you need both Stamina and Magicka) and yet you apparently lack the information to make that decision.
Tell me, a tank over cap resists when buffed, 48k health and decent sized pools of Stamina and Magicka and the ability to efficiently pull in the range. Where's the inefficiency? Where's my tanks drawbacks? My tank is as optimised and balanced as pretty much any you'll find.
"Min-Maxing" is not the be all and end all of this game and if you don’t believe that then kindly go see a certain Khajiit tank (not min-maxed and still deemed one of the best tanks, if not the best tank in this game).
Did you actually refer to yourself in the 3rd person while simultaneously calling yourself one of the “best, if not THE best tanks in the game”? Or is that a reference to someone else (I hope)? Your faith in ZOS is admirable, but there have been dozens of programming errors and oversights and skill abuses (chaining people from walls was around for MONTHS if not a year or longer; the “hole under the bridge”, VMOL boss glitching, issues with charging and altitude—YEARS, again) through the history of this game and you’d have to be willfully ignoring those things to think otherwise.
What is this “pull in the range” jargon, too? Any tank can use Caltrops/ Silver Bolt/ Inner Fire. MagikaNB go in with Lotus > Tether (if up)/ Sap Essence. That’s tanking 101. That doesn’t require any great degree of theorycrafting or brilliance. Anyway, we can revisit this when the PTS notes are up, which should be soon. I guarantee the first pass will be exactly as has already been discussed. I don’t know why you’d think otherwise.Edited by Peekachu99 on April 10, 2018 9:56PM0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RavenSworn wrote: »
The heal tank variant (pseudo sap tank)
- SPC + Light / Heavy / Medium mix Fortified Brass with Lord Warden / Thorvokun
- Argonian or Breton
- snb front bar with frost staff back bar.
- Pierce Armor, Absorb Magic, Dark Cloak, SAP Essence, Mirage with Undo (new Psijic Order ult)
- Elemental Blockade, Healthy Offering, Swallow Soul, Reaper's Mark, Refreshing Path with Soul Tether
Basically the setup is to keep heals up at All times, for SPC proc. Your resistance is above the roof and with Mirage, and Lord warden up... Damage is laughable with all the heals you have anyway. Its not a main tank build though, can still be improved but I think this is a potent mix for nb sap tank.
About how often do you envision Healthy Offering being cast?
0 -
OneKhajiitCrimeWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Leeching/ Bahraha’s/ Malubeth and you couldn’t die even if you rubber-banded your controller on a boss fight. Plus all the NB passive and siphons. If you mean actual leeching strikes, the skill, that’s pretty dead but also unnecessary in a self-sustain build anyhow.
I still want to see a proper health-scaling magika shield on a NB tank. That’s the only thing in their kit they’re missing and it should be that instead of the new (garbage) cloak.
That new cloak allows us to slot a strong heal and access to a buff we don't get as easily.
While i'd like a health scaling shield, look at what they plan to give us/what we'll have:
A heal for 33% of health/missing health (can't remember how it was worded)
Minor protection
In built fast ultimate generation
Minor vitality
Minor and Major ward
Minor and Major resolve
Major evasion
Access to resource sustain unlike some other tanks (not as massive as DK returns from ulti but i can light attack for both Stamina, Magicka and Health back)
An AoE minor maim.
The jewellery crafting is more a buff to NB tanks than most others because it allows the sort of shenanigans that i usually only find in sorc tank builds.
Our toolkit got expanded and you're still trying to claw for more or judge a skill before we even get to play with it?
Healing was never an issue with NB tanks (Leeching/ sap/ drain). Actual damage prevention has always been their weakness. Also in PVP that heal is next to useless with defile spam and standard PVP downscaling. They are literally the only class that doesn’t have a shield. Out of five classes. If they’re homogenizing roles, that’s a grave oversight.
It would depend on how you set your tank up as to how useful this is for you. In PvE that cloak looks to be strong (we haven't tested it yet). I currently have a flex spot where i use bone surge in trickier content because it's better than most others and provides synergies for group utility. Besides, i can recover the 3.7k cost pretty easily.
For PvP most health based shields aren't very good. We lack a class based damage shield, as do Wardens. Wardens have a spell projectile shield. Would i like a class shield? Maybe, but not at the expense of a skill we haven't even tested yet and looks to be beneficial.
I refuse to cry over what makes us different, good or bad.
We have so much in our toolkit. How many other classes as tanks can boast major evasion since the shuffle change? Or match our Ultimate generation? Or how about our ability to get back resources through lights and heavies?
Only the Sorc tank has easier access to minor resolve and minor ward. Our best access to major ward and resolve grants us Major expedition and heals us.
We currently lack an AoE minor maim but we're getting it if they keep the change to shade. As well as Minor protection.
NB tanks may not be easy to play, but we are not weak. NB tanks are rare today because they take skill to play well. ZOS took away the sap tank and those of us who remained built solid, well rounded tanks and we'll only get stronger.
Clearly you don’t play tanks in PVP, since Sun/ Igneous are among the strongest shields in the game for PVP tanks. Wardens do not lack a damage shield, it only shields them from projectiles, though it still scales from health (or highest resource—usually health for tanks) as do other tank shields.
Also, NB/ standard major evasion is a 1/6.66 chance of dodging a hit. That’s not great and requies, you guessed it, multiple things wailing on you at once. It becomes laughable in small scale PVE or PVP battles and passable in large scale battles, though the drain on resources will be higher in the latter so a shield—raw prevention—would ALWAYS be better. And if we’re going down the route of who does evasion best, wardens with their Falcon’s Swiftness, which either Stam or Mag would use, get a full 20% (1/5). Also, if you go the Magwarden major/ minor evade build with Gossamer, you can apply that buff to your entire team! Higher dodge on yourself and dodge to the group (since leeching vines or your healing ult is certainly in play).
I’ve been playing a NB tank since launch and I’m well aware of the ins and outs of the class. It’s not in a great place, and a burst heal—which they’ve never needed given their sustain—is not a wise choice for a skill. And as I’ve mentioned to someone else in this thread, the ZERO cost Mediation skill will always be preferred in PVE since it offers Major Protection and ignores the need to block at all.
So, you've played a NB tank since launch (waits for applause). In your time in game you may have noticed that there is more than one way to set up any class and role.
Your NB tank may not need access to a burst heal. Mine will use it for the minor protection as far as we know from the limited information. Yours is spec'd to survive by mass heals but currently lacks a pull in. mine is designed to have higher health and stack ads.
Now for meditate. Do you HONESTLY think the Dev's would give access to a skill with ZERO draw backs?
So it gives major protection, and can give thousands of resources back per second if the rumours are to be believed. Do you think they'll let us have that for tanks without risk? I'm waiting for the natch potes and PTS to pass judgement on that skill. I'd guess at a LONG cooldown or something to stop it being overpowered and abused.
With the new version of cloak we have a rough guide on it, such as cost, amounts given and drawbacks.
You're advocating a skill without all of the information. Never theorise without the correct information to base it on. You may well be correct that meditate is the way to go. Just don't be surprised if the powerful skill is reigned in by a limitation applied on it.
Would be helpful if you actually offered any kind of facts or metrics instead of ad hominem attacks. I can’t take you seriously, otherwise. It’s not helpful how you dismiss people who have experience and who are saying things based on practical testing and experience because they do not support your argument.
Furthermore, I’m speaking about what was shared from the PTS preview, and rarely do things drastically change during a PTS cycle. I would expect these skills to launch pretty much as has been already described.
P.S. Regarding the bold, I literally haven’t spoken about a single build of mine other than the to offer the OP advice on a standard Malubeth/ Bahara’s/ Flex setup, which it the bread and butter of any NB tank build—outside of dedicated Trials ones which are all the same. Yes, you can “play your way”, but don’t involve yourself in efficiency and minmaxing discussions when you clearly don’t aim for those things yourself. If you’re a NB tank who “needs” a burst heal or minor protection (multiplicative, not additive btw) that says some really interesting things about your build and mentality.
It’s best that we don’t engage from here on out since we have such conflicting ideas of design and efficiency.
So you quote the MAIN build, which again lacks the ability to efficiently pull in targets for PvE purposes and is designed for large self heals from gear. This is the information that statement was based on. If this is not what you run then please provide further details as to what you do run. I mean, if you've been playinga NB tank since launch then you obviously must have some experience with it. Share to the conversation.
Furthermore my tank doesn't NEED a burst heal or the minor protection. It currently functions just fine without it. But if ZOS are going to give me another way to further reduce incoming damage or provide me an "oh s***" button that is actually useful i'm not turning it away.
Does a DK Tank NEED Green Dragon Blood? No. Do they slot it anyway? Yes.
You have base information based on what has been noted. Have costs, have drawbacks, have EXACT figures been spoken about in clear terms?
Additionally do you think the dev team doesn’t anticipate the potential abuse of such a skill for tanks? They had 12 people, many of which (don't know them all so won't say definitely all) have a VERY good grasp of this game.
During that play testing do you think that Woeler, Xynode, Gilliam etc wouldn't have noted how open to abuse it is if there's no drawback? Have any of them come back and said that the skill is massively overpowered? Doesn't seem it.
You mention efficiency and min-maxing (VERY rarely applies to tanks as you need both Stamina and Magicka) and yet you apparently lack the information to make that decision.
Tell me, a tank over cap resists when buffed, 48k health and decent sized pools of Stamina and Magicka and the ability to efficiently pull in the range. Where's the inefficiency? Where's my tanks drawbacks? My tank is as optimised and balanced as pretty much any you'll find.
"Min-Maxing" is not the be all and end all of this game and if you don’t believe that then kindly go see a certain Khajiit tank (not min-maxed and still deemed one of the best tanks, if not the best tank in this game).
Did you actually refer to yourself in the 3rd person while simultaneously calling yourself one of the “best, if not THE best tanks in the game”? Or is that a reference to someone else (I hope)? Your faith in ZOS is admirable, but there have been dozens of programming errors and oversights and skill abuses (chaining people from walls was around for MONTHS if not a year or longer; the “hole under the bridge”, VMOL boss glitching, issues with charging and altitude—YEARS, again) through the history of this game and you’d have to be willfully ignoring those things to think otherwise.
What is this “pull in the range” jargon, too? Any tank can use Caltrops/ Silver Bolt/ Inner Fire. MagikaNB go in with Lotus > Tether (if up)/ Sap Essence. That’s tanking 101. That doesn’t require any great degree of theorycrafting or brilliance. Anyway, we can revisit this when the PTS notes are up, which should be soon. I guarantee the first pass will be exactly as has already been discussed. I don’t know why you’d think otherwise.
The tank I was referring to is Woeler, who has a Khajiit tank. My tank is a Dunmer for the max Magicka and Stamina and an increased fire resistance (every little counts). This was noted earlier in the conversation and in a link to my build.
Pulling in the ranged: A BASIC tactic used by tanks in which they chain/portal/pull the ranged ads (if you need help knowing what they are, then gods help your raid teams) to stack them on top of the melee in order to provide the chance for the DPS to nuke them in AoE. This is easier and faster than running the melee to the ranged.
All methods you suggest do not bring the ranged to you, they just grab the initial aggro. Tanking 101 apparently hasn't taught you correctly. Back to school with you.Dark Flare is the Beginning, Radiant is the End. Hail the Light Bringers!0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »Peekachu99 wrote: »Leeching/ Bahraha’s/ Malubeth and you couldn’t die even if you rubber-banded your controller on a boss fight. Plus all the NB passive and siphons. If you mean actual leeching strikes, the skill, that’s pretty dead but also unnecessary in a self-sustain build anyhow.
I still want to see a proper health-scaling magika shield on a NB tank. That’s the only thing in their kit they’re missing and it should be that instead of the new (garbage) cloak.
That new cloak allows us to slot a strong heal and access to a buff we don't get as easily.
While i'd like a health scaling shield, look at what they plan to give us/what we'll have:
A heal for 33% of health/missing health (can't remember how it was worded)
Minor protection
In built fast ultimate generation
Minor vitality
Minor and Major ward
Minor and Major resolve
Major evasion
Access to resource sustain unlike some other tanks (not as massive as DK returns from ulti but i can light attack for both Stamina, Magicka and Health back)
An AoE minor maim.
The jewellery crafting is more a buff to NB tanks than most others because it allows the sort of shenanigans that i usually only find in sorc tank builds.
Our toolkit got expanded and you're still trying to claw for more or judge a skill before we even get to play with it?
Healing was never an issue with NB tanks (Leeching/ sap/ drain). Actual damage prevention has always been their weakness. Also in PVP that heal is next to useless with defile spam and standard PVP downscaling. They are literally the only class that doesn’t have a shield. Out of five classes. If they’re homogenizing roles, that’s a grave oversight.
It would depend on how you set your tank up as to how useful this is for you. In PvE that cloak looks to be strong (we haven't tested it yet). I currently have a flex spot where i use bone surge in trickier content because it's better than most others and provides synergies for group utility. Besides, i can recover the 3.7k cost pretty easily.
For PvP most health based shields aren't very good. We lack a class based damage shield, as do Wardens. Wardens have a spell projectile shield. Would i like a class shield? Maybe, but not at the expense of a skill we haven't even tested yet and looks to be beneficial.
I refuse to cry over what makes us different, good or bad.
We have so much in our toolkit. How many other classes as tanks can boast major evasion since the shuffle change? Or match our Ultimate generation? Or how about our ability to get back resources through lights and heavies?
Only the Sorc tank has easier access to minor resolve and minor ward. Our best access to major ward and resolve grants us Major expedition and heals us.
We currently lack an AoE minor maim but we're getting it if they keep the change to shade. As well as Minor protection.
NB tanks may not be easy to play, but we are not weak. NB tanks are rare today because they take skill to play well. ZOS took away the sap tank and those of us who remained built solid, well rounded tanks and we'll only get stronger.
Clearly you don’t play tanks in PVP, since Sun/ Igneous are among the strongest shields in the game for PVP tanks. Wardens do not lack a damage shield, it only shields them from projectiles, though it still scales from health (or highest resource—usually health for tanks) as do other tank shields.
Also, NB/ standard major evasion is a 1/6.66 chance of dodging a hit. That’s not great and requies, you guessed it, multiple things wailing on you at once. It becomes laughable in small scale PVE or PVP battles and passable in large scale battles, though the drain on resources will be higher in the latter so a shield—raw prevention—would ALWAYS be better. And if we’re going down the route of who does evasion best, wardens with their Falcon’s Swiftness, which either Stam or Mag would use, get a full 20% (1/5). Also, if you go the Magwarden major/ minor evade build with Gossamer, you can apply that buff to your entire team! Higher dodge on yourself and dodge to the group (since leeching vines or your healing ult is certainly in play).
I’ve been playing a NB tank since launch and I’m well aware of the ins and outs of the class. It’s not in a great place, and a burst heal—which they’ve never needed given their sustain—is not a wise choice for a skill. And as I’ve mentioned to someone else in this thread, the ZERO cost Mediation skill will always be preferred in PVE since it offers Major Protection and ignores the need to block at all.
So, you've played a NB tank since launch (waits for applause). In your time in game you may have noticed that there is more than one way to set up any class and role.
Your NB tank may not need access to a burst heal. Mine will use it for the minor protection as far as we know from the limited information. Yours is spec'd to survive by mass heals but currently lacks a pull in. mine is designed to have higher health and stack ads.
Now for meditate. Do you HONESTLY think the Dev's would give access to a skill with ZERO draw backs?
So it gives major protection, and can give thousands of resources back per second if the rumours are to be believed. Do you think they'll let us have that for tanks without risk? I'm waiting for the natch potes and PTS to pass judgement on that skill. I'd guess at a LONG cooldown or something to stop it being overpowered and abused.
With the new version of cloak we have a rough guide on it, such as cost, amounts given and drawbacks.
You're advocating a skill without all of the information. Never theorise without the correct information to base it on. You may well be correct that meditate is the way to go. Just don't be surprised if the powerful skill is reigned in by a limitation applied on it.
Would be helpful if you actually offered any kind of facts or metrics instead of ad hominem attacks. I can’t take you seriously, otherwise. It’s not helpful how you dismiss people who have experience and who are saying things based on practical testing and experience because they do not support your argument.
Furthermore, I’m speaking about what was shared from the PTS preview, and rarely do things drastically change during a PTS cycle. I would expect these skills to launch pretty much as has been already described.
P.S. Regarding the bold, I literally haven’t spoken about a single build of mine other than the to offer the OP advice on a standard Malubeth/ Bahara’s/ Flex setup, which it the bread and butter of any NB tank build—outside of dedicated Trials ones which are all the same. Yes, you can “play your way”, but don’t involve yourself in efficiency and minmaxing discussions when you clearly don’t aim for those things yourself. If you’re a NB tank who “needs” a burst heal or minor protection (multiplicative, not additive btw) that says some really interesting things about your build and mentality.
It’s best that we don’t engage from here on out since we have such conflicting ideas of design and efficiency.
So you quote the MAIN build, which again lacks the ability to efficiently pull in targets for PvE purposes and is designed for large self heals from gear. This is the information that statement was based on. If this is not what you run then please provide further details as to what you do run. I mean, if you've been playinga NB tank since launch then you obviously must have some experience with it. Share to the conversation.
Furthermore my tank doesn't NEED a burst heal or the minor protection. It currently functions just fine without it. But if ZOS are going to give me another way to further reduce incoming damage or provide me an "oh s***" button that is actually useful i'm not turning it away.
Does a DK Tank NEED Green Dragon Blood? No. Do they slot it anyway? Yes.
You have base information based on what has been noted. Have costs, have drawbacks, have EXACT figures been spoken about in clear terms?
Additionally do you think the dev team doesn’t anticipate the potential abuse of such a skill for tanks? They had 12 people, many of which (don't know them all so won't say definitely all) have a VERY good grasp of this game.
During that play testing do you think that Woeler, Xynode, Gilliam etc wouldn't have noted how open to abuse it is if there's no drawback? Have any of them come back and said that the skill is massively overpowered? Doesn't seem it.
You mention efficiency and min-maxing (VERY rarely applies to tanks as you need both Stamina and Magicka) and yet you apparently lack the information to make that decision.
Tell me, a tank over cap resists when buffed, 48k health and decent sized pools of Stamina and Magicka and the ability to efficiently pull in the range. Where's the inefficiency? Where's my tanks drawbacks? My tank is as optimised and balanced as pretty much any you'll find.
"Min-Maxing" is not the be all and end all of this game and if you don’t believe that then kindly go see a certain Khajiit tank (not min-maxed and still deemed one of the best tanks, if not the best tank in this game).
Did you actually refer to yourself in the 3rd person while simultaneously calling yourself one of the “best, if not THE best tanks in the game”? Or is that a reference to someone else (I hope)? Your faith in ZOS is admirable, but there have been dozens of programming errors and oversights and skill abuses (chaining people from walls was around for MONTHS if not a year or longer; the “hole under the bridge”, VMOL boss glitching, issues with charging and altitude—YEARS, again) through the history of this game and you’d have to be willfully ignoring those things to think otherwise.
What is this “pull in the range” jargon, too? Any tank can use Caltrops/ Silver Bolt/ Inner Fire. MagikaNB go in with Lotus > Tether (if up)/ Sap Essence. That’s tanking 101. That doesn’t require any great degree of theorycrafting or brilliance. Anyway, we can revisit this when the PTS notes are up, which should be soon. I guarantee the first pass will be exactly as has already been discussed. I don’t know why you’d think otherwise.
The tank I was referring to is Woeler, who has a Khajiit tank. My tank is a Dunmer for the max Magicka and Stamina and an increased fire resistance (every little counts). This was noted earlier in the conversation and in a link to my build.
Pulling in the ranged: A BASIC tactic used by tanks in which they chain/portal/pull the ranged ads (if you need help knowing what they are, then gods help your raid teams) to stack them on top of the melee in order to provide the chance for the DPS to nuke them in AoE. This is easier and faster than running the melee to the ranged.
All methods you suggest do not bring the ranged to you, they just grab the initial aggro. Tanking 101 apparently hasn't taught you correctly. Back to school with you.
You really can’t make a point without being belligerent, eh? First, Woeler is as meta as it gets—his racial choice aside. Second, “pulling in the ranged” is exactly what I described with Lotus > Tether quite literally disables all the adds in a mob and gives you umpteen seconds to puncture them—the taunting is implied but not implicit and since you’re such a pro tank I though you’d pick up on that. Your weird verbiage and phrasing that is NOT a standard term or something you hear bandied about, which was the source of my confusion. Why pull in anything aside from stragglers? It’s unnecessary, and not even possible without some weird Swarm Mother config outside of Warden/ DK (and we’re in a NB tank thread), and you should already be if you’re taunting/range-taunting or charging/ CCing ahead of your group.
Third, I’ll do us both the favour and put you on ignore, because we don’t agree on anything and this is wasting our time. Enjoy your evening.0 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »RavenSworn wrote: »
The heal tank variant (pseudo sap tank)
- SPC + Light / Heavy / Medium mix Fortified Brass with Lord Warden / Thorvokun
- Argonian or Breton
- snb front bar with frost staff back bar.
- Pierce Armor, Absorb Magic, Dark Cloak, SAP Essence, Mirage with Undo (new Psijic Order ult)
- Elemental Blockade, Healthy Offering, Swallow Soul, Reaper's Mark, Refreshing Path with Soul Tether
Basically the setup is to keep heals up at All times, for SPC proc. Your resistance is above the roof and with Mirage, and Lord warden up... Damage is laughable with all the heals you have anyway. Its not a main tank build though, can still be improved but I think this is a potent mix for nb sap tank.
About how often do you envision Healthy Offering being cast?
Sorry was out of town. Healthy offering will change to be a dot damage on you rather than it's current iteration of instant direct damage. That way, I keep myself up with all the self heals a nb can pull (dark cloak, refreshing path, sap essence, swallow soul) and keep the mending buff uptime with offering. The only real caveat with this is that offering is not smart targeting, which makes it a bit more troublesome than it usually should.
The good thing about this setup is that you can also change swallow soul with funnel health and basically do become a 'sap' heal tank.
(I don't recommend this build for main tanking though, it's as niche as it can be and unless you have a specific group setup, it's best you make this as an off tank. It is however a beast in 4mans with 3dps.)Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!0 -
Blackleopardex✭✭✭✭Nightblade Off-tank in vMoL HM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oErGAG-vFcc Edited by Blackleopardex on April 12, 2018 3:22PM6 NB: Tank, Healer, Mag/Stam PVE&PVP.
I don't read long signatures: https://www.youtube.com/user/Blackleopardex1