honest question - why does everyone love ebon armory set?

munster1404

I lose HP by not donning my Plague Doctor so I don't like Ebon Armory. But it's the group's call.

starkerealm

phermitgb wrote: »

I'm wondering if I'm missing some fundamental utility of the ebon armory set...

The short answer is, yes.

There are a number of sets that aren't particularly fantastic on their own, that are significantly more valuable in a group. Particularly for trials and vet dungeons.

Ebon, Worm, Sanctuary, and Hircine's are all examples of this. There's also some other sets like Sunderflame, Night Mother's Gaze, and Alkosh that can be really important to aiding the group's overall DPS.

Even some of the best in slot for other roles, like Spell Power Cure, are arguably worthless to the player wearing them, but are incredibly useful for the rest of their team.

Nyladreas

phermitgb wrote: »

anathemort wrote: »

The group health bonus is more useful in trials, yes, but also in dungeons as DPS can focus on damage and be more like a glass cannon. The 1k buff is not much but it is usually enough to get just over the threshold of most one-shot mechanics.

I believe the additional health for you is also helpful if you're a DK because your main shield will scale off health.

nnnnnhhhhhheeeehhhhhnnnn.... I dunno. It just doesn't sound like 1000 and change health should make that big a difference - but maybe you're right. I suppose I can start gathering up a set and see for myself. Thanks for the input...

That 1k Is actually quite a lot since most 1 shot abilities you see in the game pretty much kill you only few points of damage above the "average DPS" healthpool. Try it and watch. You'll see tons of people drop to like 500hp but live. Instead of dying. Of course depening on which mechanic it is.

Also don't forget passive % health buffs and war horn. It all adds up.

Ozstryker

I see OP's reasoning, I've found myself questioning this also based on the content I run!
As a few posters have stated, in end game situations the team benefits from end game builds! And also when it comes to min/maxing for fast dps.. But.. if u arnt tanking trials then go with what suits your play style, I've tanked (nearly) all vet dungeons and never been asked to support the group with a health buff even when running with my guildies!
I see it like this, if a player goes into a dungeon with min health cos they wanna be a dps star, why should I gimp myself to boost them a little health, recently I saw a sorcerer at 12k health, generally I see dds health at 14-16k.. 1k ish hp buff ain't even gunna save em from kinlord Rillis!!
So if I were to offer an alternative answer, I'd say look at the content you are running, if u can support your group by being more survivable, or adding some extra dps yourself.. then choose gear that allows that.....

Turelus

anathemort wrote: »

The group health bonus is more useful in trials, yes, but also in dungeons as DPS can focus on damage and be more like a glass cannon. The 1k buff is not much but it is usually enough to get just over the threshold of most one-shot mechanics.

I believe the additional health for you is also helpful if you're a DK because your main shield will scale off health.

This is my understanding of it all as well.

As a DPS I can have a little less focus on my health if I know my trials groups will be running Ebon.

Aisle9

It allows DDs without the necessary passives (Undaunted Mettle) to pass the oneshot treshold (17k) without having to use a health glyph or put points in health.

Or it allows DDs using camoran throne or witchmother's brew to pass the oneshot treshold (17k) without having to use a health glyph or put points in health.

Basically it's a support set for certain situations.

Thing is, if a DD ends up (after an attack or mechanic) with 800HP, healing can happen, and the DD won't die, but you can't [reliably] outheal oneshots. Sometimes you can, and it's funny, but it's not reliable.

kylewwefan

Ebon is good in Trials, not so great for dungeons. I pug group finder regularly where the damage is far less than stellar. Craft a set of Tourgs and pick up some cheap Dragonguard, throw in a Bloodspawn Monster Set and you’re golden.

SoLooney

its so dps can spec full dmg and therefore enemies die faster.

that 1k health bonus is a lifesaver, esp for stam. i can go 7 medium for more crit and recovery

idk

phermitgb wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

What set do you want people to wear?

I don't have any particular set that I *want* people to wear - it just seems to me that there are lots of other sets out there that would be more useful, based on the information I have on the set. But I miss stuff sometimes, so I'm wondering if I'm missing some fundamental utility of the ebon armory set, or if it IS just a matter of preference...

The group buff is the single most consistent buff to groups survival that any one person can wear. That is why. This really has more to do with trials but also of help in dungeons.

Besides, if you want to run as a tank with a decent group there will be little choice on what you wear. If lacking Ebon and the raid leader wants you to wear Ebon you will be asked to acquire it.

Aisle9

SoLooney wrote: »

its so dps can spec full dmg and therefore enemies die faster.

that 1k health bonus is a lifesaver, esp for stam. i can go 7 medium for more crit and recovery

7 medium + blue food you won't need ebon.

7 medium + dubious camoran, you'll need ebon, but that's not "full dmg".

In any case, not sure who's telling you guys to use ebon, I only slot ebon when my DDs are not capable of not standing in stupid, and my healers are thinking about klingon insults, and that's just so I can say "Guys, come on, I'm even using Ebon".

Otherwise I'll just go Torug+Dragon or Torug+Alkosh. I'm fairly sure the last time I used ebon was months ago, but I'm not sure if my buddy tank is still using it.

If DDs are telling you to use Ebon, because it's the current tank meta, they can be safely ignored.

VaranisArano

Aisle9 wrote: »

If DDs are telling you to use Ebon, because it's the current tank meta, they can be safely ignored.

But if they're telling you "hey, would you wear Ebon because its the most efficient way for everyone in the party to get that extra 1K health," that's why its part of the current tank meta. It comes down to your group. I run Ebon in dungeons because my regular group dungeon healer likes it - I'm not going to contradict my regular healer.

To be specific, Ebon Armory is meta gear for one tank in trials because its the most efficient way to get every DD and healer in the raid up above the one-shot threshold. Sure the DDs and Healers can get themselves to that point, but for a trial, having one tank wear the set is far more efficient.

Ebon Armory is suggested for most tank builds even in group dungeons because its a solid choice and its easy to transition into trials. Most people who design tank builds design those builds to run everything from Normal Dungeons to Trials. Its definitely possible to have non-group-support armor sets that outperform Ebon Armory in Vet Dungeons, but who makes builds saying "Yo, guys, this gear is awesome in Vet Dungeons but your trials group won't want it so this build is for Group Dungeons only."? Most tank builds are designed to be viable in trials, so Ebon Armory is a solid recommendation that also won't be a bad choice in group dungeons.

In normal or vet dungeons, run whatever works for you and your group. By the time you start cooperating with 11 other people in a trial, don't be surprised if when you start seeing good groups coordinate their gear to get a full complement of group buffs.

jssriot

.

VaranisArano wrote: »

In normal or vet dungeons, run whatever works for you and your group. By the time you start cooperating with 11 other people in a trial, don't be surprised if when you start seeing good groups coordinate their gear to get a full complement of group buffs.

Yes, pretty much. Whatever your role is--healer, dps, tank--the meta for group builds revolves around being part of a group and being able to do your job and support the group. You're not there for yourself. And what is a tank without a group? If you can't be flexible and be willing to work to make the group the best they can be, don't group. And if you don't group, why are you playing a tank? Just respec your tank for an all-purpose solo damage dealer and then you won't have to worry about sets like Ebon.

But if you group, especially for trials and vet dungeons, expect people to expect you to follow some meta because the meta isn't out there to make Alcast rich. It's part of the game, it's part of how grouping works and why certain sets perform better in groups than other. I didn't want to spend hours farming gear, spending all my transmutation crystals to transmute pieces, spend tons of gold on Key Fragments to get those last pieces of SPC, and making sure I have everything set up to swap around in Alpha Gear so my healer can coordinated with any other trial healer or best suit a 4-player group, but I did, because that's part of group content. Same with my stam dps--every stam dps with a high parsing damage set-up doesn't want to swap out for a lower parsing support setup so to run NMG or Sunder, but we do because it's best for the group overall.

Mic1007

That 1k health is enough for those squishy High Elf and Redguard DPSs to sit around 19k Health without a single point into Health. That's really the only reason to wear it.

cbro72

For trials, in general you see a main tank running a debuff set like torg’s And and off tank running Ebon for the group and say Dragon guard as a 2nd set for higher uptime on warhorns.

These are not the only viable tanking sets but for an off tank they are pretty easy to come by and do provide a lot of benefit for the group.

Aisle9

VaranisArano wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

If DDs are telling you to use Ebon, because it's the current tank meta, they can be safely ignored.

But if they're telling you "hey, would you wear Ebon because its the most efficient way for everyone in the party to get that extra 1K health," that's why its part of the current tank meta. It comes down to your group. I run Ebon in dungeons because my regular group dungeon healer likes it - I'm not going to contradict my regular healer.

Literally what I just said a couple posts above:

Aisle9 wrote: »

It allows DDs without the necessary passives (Undaunted Mettle) to pass the oneshot treshold (17k) without having to use a health glyph or put points in health.

So... was that meant to be a correction, a counter argument, agreement or ...? I'm confused.

As for being part of the current tank meta, it's not, unless you include groups that need that sort of crutch, like people that need to use the dubious camoran throne or the witchmother's brew to be able to sustain.

VaranisArano wrote: »

To be specific, Ebon Armory is meta gear for one tank in trials because its the most efficient way to get every DD and healer in the raid up above the one-shot threshold. Sure the DDs and Healers can get themselves to that point, but for a trial, having one tank wear the set is far more efficient.

Ebon Armory is suggested for most tank builds even in group dungeons because its a solid choice and its easy to transition into trials. Most people who design tank builds design those builds to run everything from Normal Dungeons to Trials. Its definitely possible to have non-group-support armor sets that outperform Ebon Armory in Vet Dungeons, but who makes builds saying "Yo, guys, this gear is awesome in Vet Dungeons but your trials group won't want it so this build is for Group
Dungeons only."? Most tank builds are designed to be viable in trials, so Ebon Armory is a solid recommendation that also won't be a bad choice in group dungeons.

In normal or vet dungeons, run whatever works for you and your group. By the time you start cooperating with 11 other people in a trial, don't be surprised if when you start seeing good groups coordinate their gear to get a full complement of group buffs.

What if you don't have 2 tanks ? Is it still the meta ?

I don't run ebon on my NB tank, I don't run ebon on my temp tank, I have ebon on my DK tank, but rarely use it, unless absolutely needed, and that really tells me there's an underlying issue, unrelated to the extra 1k health, because it rarely is.

I'm not 100% sure about the off-tank sporting Ebon, I guess it's a valid tactic, but you only really need an off-tank in, what, 5 bosses in 2 out of 6 trials ? And most of them don't allow you to give the Ebon buff to the whole raid, but only to the half close to the tank using it...

I was simply trying to point out that sometimes group members, especially DDs, tend to throw out statements that are not really reflective of the reality.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Ebon is rubbish, it's a perfectly fine set, with a few kinks, like not being able to use weapon and shield, but saying it's the current tank meta is debatable at best.

*edit*
Forgot about Yokeda Kai, alright, 6 in 3 out of 6

Asardes

Ebon gives 1.1K health is equivalent to about 9 points spent in health instead of the primary resource that player has, like stamina or magicka. For a race that has no % buff to health but it's running 1/5/1 or 5/1/1 with Warhorn up that's multiplied to ~1.3K. Instead of 17.2K health they'll have 18.5K. Doesn't seem much but can save you during some mechanics. It's worth running in any group content unless players are separated too much, and it's easy to get, Crypt of Hearts being among the easiest dungeons.

Enslaved

Ebon is bringing passive mitigation for entire group. That is why.

Jamini

There is no other set in the game that gives my entire group 12k combined health. The only set that comes close is Lunar Bastion, which gives a 24k combined (refreshing) shield in a much smaller radius.

On a related now, there is no other set in the game that comes close to the 1500combined WD boost that SPC gives to group from the healer. And there is no set that really matches sanctuary for +healing received, or mending for debuffing incoming damage.

Unless we completely change the grouping system for this game to incorporate a buffing/supportive role (would require groups be larger, and significant rewords to how the buffs system functions) then someone needs to cover support sets. The players in a group that can most efficiently cover those roles without dramatically slowing the group down are the Healer and Tank.

xaraan

It's one of the meta tank armors because it can be good for group builds, as in helping the glass cannon builds in your group be a little more survivable. Not as great in a 4 man dungeon, but in trials where you are giving 12 people that extra health, it has a little more value.

The problem is the disconnect between the top guilds beating the top HM vet trials content and the regular masses just running content with whoever they can that is interested:

If you have a trial group of 2 tanks/2 healers/8 DD and all those DPSers have the top end dps in the game, they probably have pushed full glass cannon mode to give them part of the edge (though a lot more goes into it than just that), so pushing their health up to 17 or 18k offers some breathing room. Same with Alkosh, even with horrible uptime, if you get it going often enough for a group like that, boosting already amazing DPS will give you great results. This also shortens the overall fight time and makes it no big deal for the tank to run sets that don't really help them much personally.

The same can be said of some harder dungeon runs as well on a smaller scale.

This meta grew out of the fact that in support you only need to heal or be tanky enough to do your base job and everything after that is overkill, you might as well start buffing what your group can do. This is a good way to look at your support role overall IMO, BUT the meta has been getting pushback for more than the last year with various nerfs to things and being tanky enough in some content/situations isn't as easy as it was a year ago - i.e. that "enough" part has shifted to where sometimes it makes sense to drop a particular group buff so you can do the base part of your job consistently and effectively.

And if you are pugging a run, or even running something relatively challenging with a coordinated (using discord or TS and knowing most of the mechanics) group that isn't the best of the best, then those meta sets make less sense. From there you have people just parroting what they see the top guild doing or someone making a build video so they look like they know what they are talking about. Most don't like to preach against the meta because it's often like one person arguing with a crowd - not worth it. Combine that with a fight taking three or four times as long and suddenly, your job is way harder than the job of the guys making some of those videos and you will see the shortcomings of those sets more easily.

In the end, giving 1k extra health to players that seem to always find the red or can't keep shields up, etc. won't keep them alive - better to find another method of helping them or just power through learning the mechanics. And giving an occasional pen buff with Alkosh to players that aren't doing huge numbers is also not contributing as much as it would in the above example.

There is also the fact that 1. If you are a great DPS, then you shouldn't need to go full glass cannon to get great numbers and it just isn't necessary outside of going for specific burn strats or HM achievements (like a time). So you could afford to put a little more into health for everyday runs or weekly board runs without it being a big deal. and 2. With the CP cap having gone up and up with each patch and the diminishing returns, most DPS should have decent points into pen as it would be more useful to take that burden off the tank than put 60 points into getting one more percent in a tree you've already put a bunch into.

So in the end, I think players look at the example set by those top trial guild players and think that is the go-to, when it's really just a go-to for certain scenarios. I've found a variety of gear setups useful for all sorts of runs over the Ebon/Alkosh meta, don't let meta preachers pigeon hole you into sets you can't perform in (plus, you can always work those sets in later if you get more comfortable with mechanics or the players you run with, etc).

Some other sets that can be useful are Torug's pact, with infused crusher enchant it will give you a little over 2700 extra pen with almost constant uptime on top of the pen from pierce armor. And it's craftable and gives you a couple of useful things in the 2/3/4 piece. If you need resources, Seducer isn't a sexy set, but it's solid. After losing cost reduction in CP trees and with most tanks dumping points into health and not other resources, that cost reduction and regen it gives will give you a lot of skill use. If you want a drop set that isn't Alkosh, going for ulti build with something like dragon (especially when combined with bloodspawn) can still give you good group benefits with more warhorn uptime.

On my warden tank I've been running a sort of heal/tank build so in 4 man runs we can bring an extra dps and with that setup I usually run Master Arch. as my drop set and a cheap ulti like the bear or can even use the healing trees to give that constant damage buff to two of the other players - this has better uptime vs. warhorn for dungeon runs where the fights are shorter than trials. And with this class you can also give the health buff to the group for 10% more health as a substitute for wearing ebon, so you can either combine with ebon if your guys are extra squishy, or use another set like Torug's.

All that being said, if you are going to run a tank consistently, I'd still pick up Ebon gear and Alkosh gear. It definitely has it's place and if you are with the right team, you can get good results from these sets.

Ajitator

We almost never run a trial without Ebon. And I'm always wearing support sets on my tank. My sets are like this;

Trials MT: Chudan/Bloodspawn, Torug, Alkosh ( my most selfish build maxes out resistances, while still applying 2700 resistance debuff with crusher enchant and lowering it another 3k w/ alkosh, total of 5700 Physical/spell resistance)

Trials OT: Lord Warden, Ebon, Alkosh ( Lord warden to help buff resistances of squishy dps and ebon to bump their health )

Dungeons: Lord Warden, Powerful Assault, Alkosh; I also use resto staff back bar with this setup so I can buff with Combat prayer 8% dmg done as well as vigor +164 spell power.

What it comes down to is tanks should be giving as many buffs as possible, While still having a good amount of self sustatin and high resistances. As stated previoiusly, Ebon adding 12k hp to your group is a huge boost and allows DPS to pump all their stats into their dmg attribute rather then putting 5-10 points into health.

Pink_Violinz

From a healer POV I adore Ebon. It means I am not going to die as easily, and the dps have a little more wiggle room before I am using emergency heals.

Some things like vMOL are horrible without ebon. You want DPS to maximize their damage, which can be impacted if they're using health items instead of going all-out. And Less deaths=more damage.

For dungeons, you could probably go in naked if it's not DLC. I can tank on my healer, it's that terribly easy. If you want to soley stay in dungeons then you can do near anything, but if you ever want to progress you need Ebon.

cbaudersub17_ESO

"everyone" is rather strong.

brandonv516 wrote: »

Red. Glowing. Orbs.

The only legit answer to your question.

Ruckly

One other thing to note about tanking dungeons is the less damage the tank and group takes the less the healer has to heal. The healer is going to have spell power and a magicka pool. If they can weave in dots and proc skoria that adds to your group dps. Whereas a tank can only really add to dps with proc sets. So a tank with reliable resists and a simple mitigation method e.g. block/boneshield/ha/taunt and can move very quickly is going to have great control over what is going on. It might not work against some HM bosses because the margin is being squeezed but in general your dps and your healer should have greater freedom to do what they do which in turn helps with the phenomenon of dps tunnel vision. The tank has an advantage in greater situational awareness.

Kolzki

It can be handy for no death run achievements. Really helps a group to get their undaunted passives.

Also, players that are aren't dead don't tend to blame the tank.