honest question - why does everyone love ebon armory set?

phermitgb

serious question. I'm gearing up my tank, and nearly every guide recommends the ebon armory set. And I just can't understand why...
sure, 3k health isn't bad - but between some decent heals, food, and a few runes, I can't see 3k health making that big a difference, especially if you've maxed out mitigations and whatnot...
4% bonus healing is nice, but lots of sets offer heal bonuses, and again, with sufficient mitigations and whatnot, is it really vital?
1k bonus health to the rest of your group - I suppose that sounds nice, but in normal dungeons and trials 1k extra health doesn't seem necessary, and in my experience, 1k xtra health isn't enough to save you from mistakes in harder veteran content..

and yet the vast majority of builds recommend this set. I honestly don't get it - on paper, at least, I can't see any of the effects of ebon armory being so above-and-beyond effective that everyone would want it - so I'm wondering, what exactly is it that I'm missing? is the 3k health REALLY that big a deal? does giving your entire 12-man team 1k xtra health really make that big a difference.

I'd appreciate any insight people can offer...

brandonv516

Red. Glowing. Orbs.

OutLaw_Nynx

What set do you want people to wear?

anathemort

The group health bonus is more useful in trials, yes, but also in dungeons as DPS can focus on damage and be more like a glass cannon. The 1k buff is not much but it is usually enough to get just over the threshold of most one-shot mechanics.

I believe the additional health for you is also helpful if you're a DK because your main shield will scale off health.

phermitgb

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

What set do you want people to wear?

I don't have any particular set that I *want* people to wear - it just seems to me that there are lots of other sets out there that would be more useful, based on the information I have on the set. But I miss stuff sometimes, so I'm wondering if I'm missing some fundamental utility of the ebon armory set, or if it IS just a matter of preference...

magictucktuck

Its not for YOU its for squishy dps

EDIT: the easier you make dpsing for you team the better the group

mobicera

I honestly can't tell you how many times I have seen dps saved by that 1k HP. It may seem like very little but the amount of times I have seen people live with under 1000 HP due to me wearing ebon make the set worth it to me. Now if you never pug and always play with the best of the best its value may diminish but for me I rarely ever take it off...

phermitgb

anathemort wrote: »

The group health bonus is more useful in trials, yes, but also in dungeons as DPS can focus on damage and be more like a glass cannon. The 1k buff is not much but it is usually enough to get just over the threshold of most one-shot mechanics.

I believe the additional health for you is also helpful if you're a DK because your main shield will scale off health.

nnnnnhhhhhheeeehhhhhnnnn.... I dunno. It just doesn't sound like 1000 and change health should make that big a difference - but maybe you're right. I suppose I can start gathering up a set and see for myself. Thanks for the input...

SirCritical

I never thought, but that 1k maxHP just mean something.

pod88kk

Wear that & worm or sanctuary & you've got a disco light show floating around you buddy

No but seriously as a dps it helps us a lot so thanks

VaranisArano

Ebon Armory is a utility group support set. It gets better the more people you have, so its more beneficial for trials than dungeons.

Why is that 1k health so nice? Well, the general ideal health for a DPS is right around 18K (Going by what I see most often on the forums, so YMMV). Its much more efficient for a tank to wear Ebon Armory and give everyone that 1k health than to have every DPS in your trial group sacrifice something like an enchantment to get themselves up to that 18K health amount. In essence, that extra health allows the DPS to build for pure DPS. So that's why one tank in a trials group usually runs Ebon Armory (just like you see a healer running Worm's Raiment to assist the magicka players' sustain).

Why would builds recommend Ebon?
Because Ebon is a really good set for trials and its not going to be a bad set for Veteran Dungeons. It should be sufficient to get you to a good amount of health. Its the same bonus as Plague Doctor but with a little group support. The more you move from Normal dungeon tanking towards harder end-game content, the more you see the meta shift towards group support sets like Ebon away from purely tank-centered gear like plague doctor. That mirrors a shift in tanking as well. In Normal Dungeons, all you need to tank is a taunt at bare minimum. By Vet HM and Trials, you are taunting, crowd controlling, and providing group support. The harder the content, the more important it is that tanks provide group support.

Should you use Ebon for Group Dungeons?
If you want to. Ebon isn't necessary for Group Dungeons and you certainly won't get the same benefit out of it as you do in a trials group. Nevertheless, its a solid way to support your group. I swapped to running Ebon instead of Plague Doctor after my regular healer said he noticed a difference in the ease of healing the DPS even though I hadn't noticed any difference in my tanking. Similarly, my regular DPS know I run Ebon, so they can plan their builds around that. On the other hand, if your group does better when you focus purely on tanking with no group support, you build according to your group's needs. That extra 1K health won't save your group. That's the job of your healer or the DPS to supplement with self-heals. That extra 1k can give a bigger margin of error.

So the main benefit of Ebon is that its an efficient way to get high health + the most efficient way to add 12K health to your Trials group that allows your DPS and Healers to min-max for their jobs.

phermitgb

thanks for the honest input guys - I'm convinced, that if I ever find myself tanking for trials, I'll give ebon armory a shot. Assuming it doesn't get drastically altered with the next update. Thanks again all...

troomar

For some DPS, 1k health is 10% of their HP pool, so it's a huge bonus for them!

LordSemaj

There gets to be a point where more health isn't going to help the TANK. The boss just does that much damage. So better to help the rest of the team. The game is balanced around everyone having X amount of health, so the attacks that murder people are doing so at these thresholds or in multiples of 2 or 3 that add up to these thresholds. It's no coincidence that medium armor gets hit by 6k shots often in dungeons, two of those equal the usual health total and an extra one from food. Raids like MoL where everyone can get hit by an attack that has a chance of one shotting them will usually NOT one shot them and leave them with like 600 health if your tank has Ebon armory. Saving people from the stupid is valuable as rezzing them costs the raid DPS or risks further deaths from a lack of healing.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Here's why: Because ZOS has designed so many DPS checks in the game and rewards for high DPS, that endgame has literally become a DPS pissing contest. Some mechanics can be completely avoided by high DPS. And with the exception of a few fights (in the newer dungeons), the solution to most problems is MOAR DPS. What's helpful in speed runs? High DPS. What's good in no-death runs? well stuff cant kill you if its dead before it can do its main attacks, so High DPS.

So what does High DPS have to do with tanks? Everything actually .

Since the pressure and incentive is to max damage output in group content, DPS run glass cannon builds that have as little health as possible. If everyone is running 16k health with food, then Ebon Set is good because its pads your glass cannon DPS who are all going to spam their numbers after every boss fight because that's the only challenge anymore. Bigger numbers.

The role of tanks and that of healers in this meta has been reduced to "Buff [snip].. ummm buff maids" that have the minimum resources needed to survive then dedicate all of their remaining sets and utility to buffing primadonna DPS divas so they can hit higher numbers and brag about it.

That is why you see people asking tanks to run ebon and healers to run SPC. Because tanks and healers don't have much of a meaningful role anymore other than feeding buffs to DPS and staying alive while doing it.

[Edit for censor bypass.]

Mettaricana

I did 5pc knight errant inplace of ebon on a few builds it gave me a nice self heal allowing healer to focus more on the less than ideal dps we had

Taleof2Cities

brandonv516 wrote: »

Red. Glowing. Orbs.

^This.^

Ratzkifal

It might not be a lot, but every bit counts, especially when you are a glass-cannon. My healer has a terrible healthbar of 14k, thus 17k with food. That additional 1k can save my life, which saves the lives of the others in the group. There are not a lot of other options that are this beneficial to the group as Ebon and if there are, most people combine them with Ebon instead of replacing Ebon.

Ruckly

In a trial it makes sense. In a group dungeon it's spreadsheet idealism. Meaning it works if you have the ideal party to make it work. Usually a dps is going to go into a dungeon with a ability to survive a OHK. That extra 1k health isn't going to take them out of 2 shot territory. At best it gives them a little wiggle room with ground dots negating 1k damage off the first tick.

LordSemaj

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The role of tanks and that of healers in this meta has been reduced to "Buff [snip].. ummm buff maids" that have the minimum resources needed to survive then dedicate all of their remaining sets and utility to buffing primadonna DPS divas so they can hit higher numbers and brag about it.

That is why you see people asking tanks to run ebon and healers to run SPC. Because tanks and healers don't have much of a meaningful role anymore other than feeding buffs to DPS and staying alive while doing it.

Still that's purely a meta thing, a community issue. The healers can still do their job without the dps buffs and people can just suffer through the mechanics as was probably intended by their inclusion. The more people min-max to avoid those mechanics, the more ZOS balances the next raid to be even harder to heal through. At that point, yes more DPS is the only way you're going to win because the heals couldn't keep up even with a few new set bonuses.

Wait till ESO evolves into old school EQ/WoW-style raiding. Everything kills you in one hit, no exceptions. Healers are debuff bots and keep the tank alive. The DPS either dodges the crap or dies. 'Get good' becomes the mantra of every raid guild.

Reverb

LordSemaj wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The role of tanks and that of healers in this meta has been reduced to "Buff [snip].. ummm buff maids" that have the minimum resources needed to survive then dedicate all of their remaining sets and utility to buffing primadonna DPS divas so they can hit higher numbers and brag about it.

That is why you see people asking tanks to run ebon and healers to run SPC. Because tanks and healers don't have much of a meaningful role anymore other than feeding buffs to DPS and staying alive while doing it.

Still that's purely a meta thing, a community issue. The healers can still do their job without the dps buffs and people can just suffer through the mechanics as was probably intended by their inclusion. The more people min-max to avoid those mechanics, the more ZOS balances the next raid to be even harder to heal through. At that point, yes more DPS is the only way you're going to win because the heals couldn't keep up even with a few new set bonuses.

Wait till ESO evolves into old school EQ/WoW-style raiding. Everything kills you in one hit, no exceptions. Healers are debuff bots and keep the tank alive. The DPS either dodges the crap or dies. 'Get good' becomes the mantra of every raid guild.

It's not completely a community issue, it's how the fights are designed, because Zeni has no idea how to deal with the CP power creep. There's almost no mechanic in ESO that can't be overcome (or completely avoided) by throwing more dps at it. Tank and Healer's jobs are pretty much to make it so dps' can stand in place and kill things as fast as possible, while ignoring mechanics and incoming damage.

LordSemaj

The community issue is wanting to avoid the mechanic in the first place instead of play through it. DPS being the optimal strategy every time is the issue rather than people being comfortable with less DPS and more strategy or god forbid skill.

O_LYKOS

The difference between 16k and 17k health might not be a lot to a tank but it's a big difference to a dps

victoriana-blue

Ruckly wrote: »

In a trial it makes sense. In a group dungeon it's spreadsheet idealism. Meaning it works if you have the ideal party to make it work. Usually a dps is going to go into a dungeon with a ability to survive a OHK. That extra 1k health isn't going to take them out of 2 shot territory. At best it gives them a little wiggle room with ground dots negating 1k damage off the first tick.

Yep, people are taking trial strategies for good players and applying them to 4-person content that frequently has average (or below average) players. I think that it's useful to have a good set of ebon around in case someone asks for it specifically, but for most 4-person stuff I prefer to run a cc or sustain proc set instead.

(It's the same reason tanks are ~expected~ to run aggressive warhorn at all times, even when it would be better to run a class or weapon ult - 15% more crit damage when the group dps is under 25k isn't a big difference and 1.5k more health won't save someone standing in stupid, but the skill is a great boost for good players. /soapbox)

DoctorESO

.

victoriana-blue

DoctorESO wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Now if you never pug and always play with the best of the best its value may diminish but for me I rarely ever take it off...

So you're like those NPCs that sleep in bed wearing their full heavy armor?

CONSTANT VIGILANCE.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

LordSemaj wrote: »

The community issue is wanting to avoid the mechanic in the first place instead of play through it. DPS being the optimal strategy every time is the issue rather than people being comfortable with less DPS and more strategy or god forbid skill.

There's another factor to it too. Some mechanics are either frustrating or annoying and some of these dungeons are just flat out not fun. Especially the Hist Dungeons where there are only 4 loot giving bosses, and tough time wasting trash packs, stupid puzzles, and un-skippable dialogue and animations. So DPS lets you get through it as fast as possible, get your gear and get out.

LordSemaj wrote: »

The more people min-max to avoid those mechanics, the more ZOS balances the next raid to be even harder to heal through.

This is also another important point. ZOS feel like they have to cater to the top 1% of people that have min/maxed and can clear dungeons super quickly. There will always be someone like that. But when ZOS makes the dungeons harder to make it a challenge for those people, it raises the ceiling for everyone else and creates a skill a gear gap where all the top people have easier access to the top gear, which creates a skill and DPS gap where some people are bragging about 60KDPS and others struggle to get 20k, which again is bad for the game.

Vermintide

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Here's why: Because ZOS has designed so many DPS checks in the game and rewards for high DPS, that endgame has literally become a DPS pissing contest. Some mechanics can be completely avoided by high DPS. And with the exception of a few fights (in the newer dungeons), the solution to most problems is MOAR DPS. What's helpful in speed runs? High DPS. What's good in no-death runs? well stuff cant kill you if its dead before it can do its main attacks, so High DPS.

So what does High DPS have to do with tanks? Everything actually .

Since the pressure and incentive is to max damage output in group content, DPS run glass cannon builds that have as little health as possible. If everyone is running 16k health with food, then Ebon Set is good because its pads your glass cannon DPS who are all going to spam their numbers after every boss fight because that's the only challenge anymore. Bigger numbers.

The role of tanks and that of healers in this meta has been reduced to "Buff [snip].. ummm buff maids" that have the minimum resources needed to survive then dedicate all of their remaining sets and utility to buffing primadonna DPS divas so they can hit higher numbers and brag about it.

That is why you see people asking tanks to run ebon and healers to run SPC. Because tanks and healers don't have much of a meaningful role anymore other than feeding buffs to DPS and staying alive while doing it.

[Edit for censor bypass.]

Heh. MMO groups are like a band. And bassists always have a chip on their shoulder.

The drummer is valuable because he's so rare, youd be screwed without him. The guitarists are more talented, they bring the real melody... But bass is important too dammit. You didn't end up relegated to bass just because you couldn't get in as guitarist. That's not it at all.

Bass is what holds the whole band together, in fact! Those show-offs don't know where they'd be without you.

And it's funny because it's true.

Runefang

What would you run if you didn't want to run Ebon?

Izaki

.

Ruckly

Runefang wrote: »

What would you run if you didn't want to run Ebon?

If you want to do something cheesy in a dungeon on a DK fortified brass/coward's gear/tremorscale. Sprint in with expedition and talon then caltrop then taunt.