Skeleton test do not have 15 second off balance cool down as bosses do...

Kel

This makes skeleton parses obsolete for accurate results now. What good are dps numbers from a skeleton parse if it won't accurately show damage against a boss?
I'm sure it's so ingrained into the mind set of players to still ask for one, but it doesn't make sense anymore. Will guilds still ask for one? Probably. But it means nothing if the numbers are skewed because the skeleton doesn't have the off balance cool down a boss has.
Unless something changes, guilds are asking for trash pull dps, not boss dps. It's inaccurate and useless.
What's sad will be seeing guilds ask for this and wonder why numbers are so off.
The skeleton just became a tool for practicing rotation and less about dps parse.
Rightfully so, in my opinion...

Concret

jabrone77 wrote: »

This makes skeleton parses obsolete for accurate results now.
The skeleton just became a tool for practicing rotation and less about dps parse.

Skeleton was always (and still is) a tool for practicing rotation and nothing else.
Accurate results can only be done within trials (eventually the robust centurion may be used to know the maximum potential of a team).

Kel

Concret wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

This makes skeleton parses obsolete for accurate results now.
The skeleton just became a tool for practicing rotation and less about dps parse.

Skeleton was always (and still is) a tool for practicing rotation and nothing else.
Accurate results can only be done within trials (eventually the robust centurion may be used to know the maximum potential of a team).

I completely agree. Hoping this will stop the needless "prove your dps by arbitrary skeleton test" mentality running rampant through the game by providing this bit of information.
Probably not, though..

Illurian

jabrone77 wrote: »

This makes skeleton parses obsolete for accurate results now. What good are dps numbers from a skeleton parse if it won't accurately show damage against a boss?
I'm sure it's so ingrained into the mind set of players to still ask for one, but it doesn't make sense anymore. Will guilds still ask for one? Probably. But it means nothing if the numbers are skewed because the skeleton doesn't have the off balance cool down a boss has.
Unless something changes, guilds are asking for trash pull dps, not boss dps. It's inaccurate and useless.
What's sad will be seeing guilds ask for this and wonder why numbers are so off.
The skeleton just became a tool for practicing rotation and less about dps parse.

While I agree that skeleton parses are not at all definitive of true player skill, your particular concern only applies to magicka builds (mainly sorcs).

Stamina builds do not proc off-balance, and some magicka builds run flame blockade over lightning, drastically lowering the off-balance chance (if even applicable, at all).

Also, while skeleton parses aren't definitive of true player skill, they do indicate the potential output of dps of a player. What you output on the skeleton gives a range of expectation of what your dps would be in a dungeon/trial.

You won't magically go from 10k dps on the skeleton to 30k dps in a dungeon/trial.

Kel

Illurian wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

This makes skeleton parses obsolete for accurate results now. What good are dps numbers from a skeleton parse if it won't accurately show damage against a boss?
I'm sure it's so ingrained into the mind set of players to still ask for one, but it doesn't make sense anymore. Will guilds still ask for one? Probably. But it means nothing if the numbers are skewed because the skeleton doesn't have the off balance cool down a boss has.
Unless something changes, guilds are asking for trash pull dps, not boss dps. It's inaccurate and useless.
What's sad will be seeing guilds ask for this and wonder why numbers are so off.
The skeleton just became a tool for practicing rotation and less about dps parse.

While I agree that skeleton parses are not at all definitive of true player skill, your particular concern only applies to magicka builds (mainly sorcs).

Stamina builds do not proc off-balance, and some magicka builds run flame blockade over lightning, drastically lowering the off-balance chance (if even applicable, at all).

Also, while skeleton parses aren't definitive of true player skill, they do indicate the potential output of dps of a player. What you output on the skeleton gives a range of expectation of what your dps would be in a dungeon/trial.

You won't magically go from 10k dps on the skeleton to 30k dps in a dungeon/trial.

What potential dps do you expect from a boss when the test won't accurately show boss damage?
And I've seen tests where a player will come in to add debuffs to the skeleton, like a taunt, or ele drain, or yes, off balance, to more accurately show what trial dps against a boss would look like. Let's not pretend here.
Those days are gone.
What the skeleton shows now is potential dps against trash.
I also have seen players here argue solo parses didn't matter anyway, so you can't have it both ways. The fact the community could never agree what constituted an actual test should tell you they were never that accurate from the start.

Illurian

jabrone77 wrote: »

What potential dps do you expect from a boss when the test won't accurately show boss damage.

Which is exactly why it's called a "potential", not a direct reflection. Under perfect circumstances (stationary boss, no mechanics to worry about, 100% debuff uptime etc), you can see the potential dps output of a player by looking at the skeleton parse. Say fully buffed/debuffed, a player outputs 30k dps on a skeleton target. It would be reasonable to expect this same player to output somewhere between 23-28k dps in a dungeon/trial.

jabrone77 wrote: »

And I've seen tests where a player will come in to add debuffs to the skeleton, like a taunt, or ele drain, or yes, off balance, to more accurately show what trial dps against a boss would look like.
Those days are gone.

Those parses were never completely accurate anyway, as there are no mechanics required to dps a skeleton dummy. They were never taken to be a direct reflection of a player's actual trial dps, just a general range on the player's dps potential.

jabrone77 wrote: »

What the skeleton shows now is potential dps against trash.
I also have seen players here argue solo parses didn't matter anyway, so you can't have it both ways.

Can't have what both ways? I don't believe anyone worth their salt who actually does vet trials would claim that the skeleton dummy parse is a direct reflection of a player's dps in trials. It just gives perspective on a player's potential dps range.

Kel

Illurian wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

What potential dps do you expect from a boss when the test won't accurately show boss damage.

Which is exactly why it's called a "potential", not a direct reflection. Under perfect circumstances (stationary boss, no mechanics to worry about, 100% debuff uptime etc), you can see the potential dps output of a player by looking at the skeleton parse. Say fully buffed/debuffed, a player outputs 30k dps on a skeleton target. It would be reasonable to expect this same player to output somewhere between 23-28k dps in a dungeon/trial.

jabrone77 wrote: »

And I've seen tests where a player will come in to add debuffs to the skeleton, like a taunt, or ele drain, or yes, off balance, to more accurately show what trial dps against a boss would look like.
Those days are gone.

Those parses were never completely accurate anyway, as there are no mechanics required to dps a skeleton dummy. They were never taken to be a direct reflection of a player's actual trial dps, just a general range on the player's dps potential.

jabrone77 wrote: »

What the skeleton shows now is potential dps against trash.
I also have seen players here argue solo parses didn't matter anyway, so you can't have it both ways.

Can't have what both ways? I don't believe anyone worth their salt who actually does vet trials would claim that the skeleton dummy parse is a direct reflection of a player's dps in trials. It just gives perspective on a player's potential dps range.

I mean, players getting denied by cp or parses happen all the time. Saying you don't think that is noble, but it does happen.
I'm a dreamer too...I think performance in a actual trial should be the measuring stick for performanc, not arbitrary tests and opinions about a set up that isn't yours... But here we are...

Jhalin

Players will get denied because if they cannot hit high enough dps numbers on a dummy, there's no way they can meet those numbers in a real fight. It's got nothing to do with taking a parse as law and everything to do with recognizing that the player simply cannot obtain the needed dps in a vTrial situation.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Target dummy DPS has never reflected Trial DPS. If you pull the same DPS on a dummy as you do in a raid, then one of two things is happening: 1. You are cheesing the crap out of the dummy parse to buff it to a raid level, or 2. Your raid is complete garbage and doing nothing to help your damage.

Target dummies are useful for practicing rotations and comparing DPS with known variables. That hasnt changed. If you are better than me at (insert class/spec), and we keep all other variables the same (gear, CP, Mundus, Debuffs), you should beat me on a dummy parse, no matter what they do to off balance.

MissBizz

Concret wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

This makes skeleton parses obsolete for accurate results now.
The skeleton just became a tool for practicing rotation and less about dps parse.

Skeleton was always (and still is) a tool for practicing rotation and nothing else.
Accurate results can only be done within trials (eventually the robust centurion may be used to know the maximum potential of a team).

Yes but comparing Staff A to Staff B could be mostly done on skeleton. Like I don't know... a fire vs lightning staff.. now that's obsolete.

idk

Dummy parses don't actually show boss fights data anyhow. The newer trials require movement, not just standing still pushing buttons.

What dummy parses do show, and what makes them somewhat useful, is a comparison tool for one build vs the other. One player he another.

LiquidPony

jabrone77 wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

What potential dps do you expect from a boss when the test won't accurately show boss damage.

Which is exactly why it's called a "potential", not a direct reflection. Under perfect circumstances (stationary boss, no mechanics to worry about, 100% debuff uptime etc), you can see the potential dps output of a player by looking at the skeleton parse. Say fully buffed/debuffed, a player outputs 30k dps on a skeleton target. It would be reasonable to expect this same player to output somewhere between 23-28k dps in a dungeon/trial.

jabrone77 wrote: »

And I've seen tests where a player will come in to add debuffs to the skeleton, like a taunt, or ele drain, or yes, off balance, to more accurately show what trial dps against a boss would look like.
Those days are gone.

Those parses were never completely accurate anyway, as there are no mechanics required to dps a skeleton dummy. They were never taken to be a direct reflection of a player's actual trial dps, just a general range on the player's dps potential.

jabrone77 wrote: »

What the skeleton shows now is potential dps against trash.
I also have seen players here argue solo parses didn't matter anyway, so you can't have it both ways.

Can't have what both ways? I don't believe anyone worth their salt who actually does vet trials would claim that the skeleton dummy parse is a direct reflection of a player's dps in trials. It just gives perspective on a player's potential dps range.

I mean, players getting denied by cp or parses happen all the time. Saying you don't think that is noble, but it does happen.
I'm a dreamer too...I think performance in a actual trial should be the measuring stick for performanc, not arbitrary tests and opinions about a set up that isn't yours... But here we are...

I don't really see your point here.

Of course people are "denied" for low skeleton parses. If you can't hit a reasonable DPS target on a stationary skeleton with no mechanics or incoming damage to deal with, you certainly can't do it in a raid.

Your idea that "performance in an actual trial should be the measuring stick" is nice and all ... but how do I measure someone else's performance in a Trial on console? We don't get in-game DPS parses because that's only available via addons.

Solo parses are used to practice, to test changes to your build, and to demonstrate that you're within some acceptable range that will translate to acceptable DPS output in-raid.

So for instance we might say ...

A stamDK (using Sunderflame or NMG + a damage set + Velidreth, using The Warrior, with 20-30 points in Piercing) ought to be able to hit 38-43k+ DPS on a solo parse. That'll translate to something in the 60k+ range in our raid parses.

A magsorc (using whatever their raid gear is, using The Apprentice, with raid CP) ought to be able to hit 38-42k+ DPS on a solo parse. That'll translate into something in the 48-50k+ range in our raid parses.

Etc., etc. The point being that it gives us an easy baseline to compare builds and players and to offer help. If someone comes to me and says they're only able to pull 35k on a stamDK using a typical raid setup, then I can immediately know that they're doing something wrong in the rotation or have the build set up wrong in some way, because I know that DPS number is too low.

It's not arbitrary and it's not stupid. Solo parses were never meant to be an accurate reflection of your in-game DPS. It's just an easy way to tell if someone actually knows what they're doing.

WrathOfInnos

Instead of fixing skeletons to match bosses, they should remove the unwanted off-balance cooldown from bosses to match skeletons. Are large, sweeping DPS nerfs really necessary every patch?

Zer0oo

The problem is that skeleton do now no longer show how your dps and sustain is in a real raid since bosses behavior is completely different. It is now easier to "cheese" your dps phrase by setting the enemy off-balanced for 100% but that would in a raid you only have ~20% uptime. ...

The raid dummy will be kinda useless now since you really can no longer test something on it. That will be especial bad for players on the console since they can not see how they perform in a raid situation. If you now want to see how under more realistically conditions your dps is you need to go in a dungeon and test it there. Yay the blood spawn test is back.

Still hopping they change this stupid off-balance change back to the bugged version and improve that one.

Runefang

LiquidPony wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

What potential dps do you expect from a boss when the test won't accurately show boss damage.

Which is exactly why it's called a "potential", not a direct reflection. Under perfect circumstances (stationary boss, no mechanics to worry about, 100% debuff uptime etc), you can see the potential dps output of a player by looking at the skeleton parse. Say fully buffed/debuffed, a player outputs 30k dps on a skeleton target. It would be reasonable to expect this same player to output somewhere between 23-28k dps in a dungeon/trial.

jabrone77 wrote: »

And I've seen tests where a player will come in to add debuffs to the skeleton, like a taunt, or ele drain, or yes, off balance, to more accurately show what trial dps against a boss would look like.
Those days are gone.

Those parses were never completely accurate anyway, as there are no mechanics required to dps a skeleton dummy. They were never taken to be a direct reflection of a player's actual trial dps, just a general range on the player's dps potential.

jabrone77 wrote: »

What the skeleton shows now is potential dps against trash.
I also have seen players here argue solo parses didn't matter anyway, so you can't have it both ways.

Can't have what both ways? I don't believe anyone worth their salt who actually does vet trials would claim that the skeleton dummy parse is a direct reflection of a player's dps in trials. It just gives perspective on a player's potential dps range.

I mean, players getting denied by cp or parses happen all the time. Saying you don't think that is noble, but it does happen.
I'm a dreamer too...I think performance in a actual trial should be the measuring stick for performanc, not arbitrary tests and opinions about a set up that isn't yours... But here we are...

I don't really see your point here.

Of course people are "denied" for low skeleton parses. If you can't hit a reasonable DPS target on a stationary skeleton with no mechanics or incoming damage to deal with, you certainly can't do it in a raid.

Your idea that "performance in an actual trial should be the measuring stick" is nice and all ... but how do I measure someone else's performance in a Trial on console? We don't get in-game DPS parses because that's only available via addons.

Solo parses are used to practice, to test changes to your build, and to demonstrate that you're within some acceptable range that will translate to acceptable DPS output in-raid.

So for instance we might say ...

A stamDK (using Sunderflame or NMG + a damage set + Velidreth, using The Warrior, with 20-30 points in Piercing) ought to be able to hit 38-43k+ DPS on a solo parse. That'll translate to something in the 60k+ range in our raid parses.

A magsorc (using whatever their raid gear is, using The Apprentice, with raid CP) ought to be able to hit 38-42k+ DPS on a solo parse. That'll translate into something in the 48-50k+ range in our raid parses.

Etc., etc. The point being that it gives us an easy baseline to compare builds and players and to offer help. If someone comes to me and says they're only able to pull 35k on a stamDK using a typical raid setup, then I can immediately know that they're doing something wrong in the rotation or have the build set up wrong in some way, because I know that DPS number is too low.

It's not arbitrary and it's not stupid. Solo parses were never meant to be an accurate reflection of your in-game DPS. It's just an easy way to tell if someone actually knows what they're doing.

What he said.

It's stupid to think somebody with a low dummy parse will be any better in a real trial. Also finding out that somebody is bad in the trial itself is just painful, you have to kick them and wait for a replacement. That's why there is a gated DPS requirement for core vet trial teams, to avoid that kind of time wasting.

Kel

Runefang wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

jabrone77 wrote: »

What potential dps do you expect from a boss when the test won't accurately show boss damage.

Which is exactly why it's called a "potential", not a direct reflection. Under perfect circumstances (stationary boss, no mechanics to worry about, 100% debuff uptime etc), you can see the potential dps output of a player by looking at the skeleton parse. Say fully buffed/debuffed, a player outputs 30k dps on a skeleton target. It would be reasonable to expect this same player to output somewhere between 23-28k dps in a dungeon/trial.

jabrone77 wrote: »

And I've seen tests where a player will come in to add debuffs to the skeleton, like a taunt, or ele drain, or yes, off balance, to more accurately show what trial dps against a boss would look like.
Those days are gone.

Those parses were never completely accurate anyway, as there are no mechanics required to dps a skeleton dummy. They were never taken to be a direct reflection of a player's actual trial dps, just a general range on the player's dps potential.

jabrone77 wrote: »

What the skeleton shows now is potential dps against trash.
I also have seen players here argue solo parses didn't matter anyway, so you can't have it both ways.

Can't have what both ways? I don't believe anyone worth their salt who actually does vet trials would claim that the skeleton dummy parse is a direct reflection of a player's dps in trials. It just gives perspective on a player's potential dps range.

I mean, players getting denied by cp or parses happen all the time. Saying you don't think that is noble, but it does happen.
I'm a dreamer too...I think performance in a actual trial should be the measuring stick for performanc, not arbitrary tests and opinions about a set up that isn't yours... But here we are...

I don't really see your point here.

Of course people are "denied" for low skeleton parses. If you can't hit a reasonable DPS target on a stationary skeleton with no mechanics or incoming damage to deal with, you certainly can't do it in a raid.

Your idea that "performance in an actual trial should be the measuring stick" is nice and all ... but how do I measure someone else's performance in a Trial on console? We don't get in-game DPS parses because that's only available via addons.

Solo parses are used to practice, to test changes to your build, and to demonstrate that you're within some acceptable range that will translate to acceptable DPS output in-raid.

So for instance we might say ...

A stamDK (using Sunderflame or NMG + a damage set + Velidreth, using The Warrior, with 20-30 points in Piercing) ought to be able to hit 38-43k+ DPS on a solo parse. That'll translate to something in the 60k+ range in our raid parses.

A magsorc (using whatever their raid gear is, using The Apprentice, with raid CP) ought to be able to hit 38-42k+ DPS on a solo parse. That'll translate into something in the 48-50k+ range in our raid parses.

Etc., etc. The point being that it gives us an easy baseline to compare builds and players and to offer help. If someone comes to me and says they're only able to pull 35k on a stamDK using a typical raid setup, then I can immediately know that they're doing something wrong in the rotation or have the build set up wrong in some way, because I know that DPS number is too low.

It's not arbitrary and it's not stupid. Solo parses were never meant to be an accurate reflection of your in-game DPS. It's just an easy way to tell if someone actually knows what they're doing.

What he said.

It's stupid to think somebody with a low dummy parse will be any better in a real trial. Also finding out that somebody is bad in the trial itself is just painful, you have to kick them and wait for a replacement. That's why there is a gated DPS requirement for core vet trial teams, to avoid that kind of time wasting.

Well, now the dummy parse is not going to be a accurate measure. Not that it ever was, as admitted by several people here. THAT IS THE POINT. So, what's the plan b, because the dummy test isn't going to work.

failkiwib16_ESO

Honestly, you really have to measure peoples dps combined with their gear and performance.
I've seen 45k-60k dps DDs go down to 25k-28k dps in skeleton and Bloodspawn tests, because they wore proc-sets and according to that particular guild's rules, no synergies were given during testing.

Those same player that failed the dps-test for a raid guild, pulled off 40% of entire group dps during raids with that same guild.

Also in fights such as the first boss in Maw of Lorkhaj, they usually place 3 ranged DD's to take the curse, these 3 ranged DDs get less synergies sent to them than the rest of the team that stack on the boss. Fights and bosses differ. Peoples gear, stats, experience and rotation also differ - all these things are matters to take into consideration when you "test" someone for a role.