On 1vX PvPrs and Battlegrounds Objectives - A Rant

Micah_Bayer

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

My body is ready for this thread.

Maybe if they gave us arenas or let us choose deathmatch..all would be well.

HatchetHaro

Thogard wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I play and enjoy PvP for the mechanics and actual combat, not some irrelevant PvDoor. It’s the same difference between small scalers/ groups that look for fights, and those that care about the alliance war and play for points and scoring. Being able to run a relic or hold on to a chaosball does not demonstrate skill or stimulate high octane PvP. Quite the opposite rather. It rewards lame Tank builds that literally build to not fight. As such, I will gladly play the objective in deathmatch or domination or crazy king...modes that encourage and set up actual PvP. The PvDoor modes tho? Nah I think I’ll just use those modes as target practice.

I bet you’re also the guy that thinks seiging a keep and capturing a flag with a train of zerglings is skillful and distinguished gameplay, but 1vX, small scaling and organized group vs group fights are pointless distractions. Our preferences and philosophies cannot be reconciled, and so let’s agree to disagree. I do not see the point of your rambling though...are you looking for validation of your views? Cus the only thing this accomplishes is ensuring that the “sorcbois” of your platform and server get an extra dopamine kick every time they pop you.

Wow, assumptions assumptions assumptions, all because I made a point against leaving your team just to pursue your own bloodlust fantasies.

I never touched on tank builds, but here's my thought: they're way too OP right now. I'm hoping for nerfs next patch because I agree that that stuff does not demonstrate skill.

Here, I will be talking from my own experience as a stam DK in medium armor.

Running a relic and holding onto a chaosball does demonstrate skill. Running a relic at least demonstrates that you know how to manipulate the battlefield and find an efficient route through the fighting, and to exploit opportunities to sneak past enemy defenses; in the same vein, defending a relic from an assault and being able to interrupt people trying to sneak past you while another tries to distract you with some fighting demonstrates awareness. Holding onto a chaosball requires that you are able to survive under pressure, and I've done many chaosball matches wearing medium armor; it does take skill to be able to evade your enemies long enough to stack more points. Some hiding spots are a bit cheesy though, such as the one behind the crates upstairs in the laboratory at the Arcane University, so I'm looking forward to those being patched up.

I don't zerg in Cyrodiil. I don't even like Cyrodiil; that's why I enjoy Battlegrounds instead. I do not think that zerging is "skillful and distingushed gameplay", but I also do not think that leaving your teammates behind to fend for themselves on the objective while you run away to indulge in pointless killing that ends up being counterproductive to your team "skillful and distingushed gameplay".

My point is that in Battlegrounds, people should be working as a team. If you throw a match by being a selfish kill-hogging jerk, you end up affecting the rest of your group. There's no "looking for validation of my views"; I am just simply making a point that this selfish behavior is immoral and there are solutions that can still satisfy everyone.

Im going to be real with you for a second

If you have a teammate that goes 20-0 in a BG and your team still loses the objective, that’s your fault, not his/hers.

The most effective strategy in modes like CTR, domination, and crazy king is spawn camping the enemy so they can’t cap or defend flags or relics. Assuming this Xv1er is locking down three enemy players, It gives you and the rest of your team a 3-1 advantage.

If you can’t pull a win out of those circumstances it shows a serious lack of ability on your part.

That would only be true if he was actually locking down the spawns, but no; he was locking down nothing.

If you are able to lock down someone's spawn and actually inconvenience both enemy teams enough for your team to play the objective, then that is completely fine. In fact, I'd welcome that, because it's a legitimate strategy and I'd categorize that under "playing the objective".

But, again, Battlegrounds is a team effort. If a teammate is unable to go toe to toe against someone else, you're supposed to help them, not ditch them.

I know you have a fetish for receiving hate tells, but when it comes to the point where you're close to receiving hate tells from your own teammates, it becomes a problem.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You might not like being called a carebear, but you don't seem to mind trash talking and calling other people who play the game differently than you derogatory names. Maybe its karma you and Sorc Boi wound up in the same BG match.

If someone's being immoral, I call them out on it. Simple as that.

Also, karma has nothing to do with it. "SorcBoi" and I were in the same match but different teams; that loss did not affect me, because everyone on my team at least tried to play the objective to the best of our abilities, so I can not blame our loss on anyone in my group. But it most definitely did to "SorcBoi"'s teammates, who were all inadequate to defend against the Purple team.

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Inb4 this becomes a nerf sorc thread...

Man, I hope not. In terms of PvP, a "nerf Wardens" thread should be higher on the list of priorities.

Thogard

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Man, I hope not. In terms of PvP, a "nerf Wardens" thread should be higher on the list of priorities.

i made that thread. nobody listened, so i made a warden.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374883/subterranean-assault-overperforming/p1

rustic_potato

Meh. Play as you want is the mantra of the game. If you cannot handle how others play maybe play something else?

I sometimes troll BGs to to blow off some steam. This whole play for the greater good doesnt exist. Everyone is selfish and this is just a game they chose to spend their time. As long as they dont break the TOS i dont think it is a problem.

Kolache

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Shield stacking is the behavior that sickens me

Why...? The use of wards is perfectly logical and acceptable for a means of defense regarding magicka users. In just about every RPG I’ve played, magicka users can summon: Barriers, shields, wards, etc. as a means of defense. But because these things may appear to be overpowered within a PvP environment, the PvP crowd wants to go and have stacking removed. Knowing damn well it’s going to hurt the PvE crowd more than the PvP crowd.

I dunno, every other MMO/RPG I've played had "glass cannons" that could avoid damage for a brief period of time... shielding, blinking, kiting, pet tanking, whatever. Not face-tank spamming shields over and over. Some people are used to tanks that do lower damage than DPS, DPS that survive less than tanks, and healers that can heal to full but need peels because they're not great at mitigating damage... I mean that's the old-school paradigm, right?

If it is, I'm not sure how being able to indefinitely shield yourself leveraging the same stat that gives you damage makes sense. It's different from healing because it negates the need for healing most of the time... it's flawless mitigation governed by no cooldowns and a perpetually busted sustain system. Oh and shields can heal lol.

I think cost increase poisons were the best answer to this issue but people hate them as much as people hate shield stacking, and they certainly wreck less imba things than shield stacking too.

TLDR: No, I never played an MMO/RPG where my magic user/clothy/wizard/glass canon/DPS could choose to focus on keeping themselves alive while taking no damage as long as they needed to as needed.

Ch4mpTW

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

My body is ready for this thread.

Maybe if they gave us arenas or let us choose deathmatch..all would be well.

Agreed. +1 to you comrade.

Lexxypwns

Thogard wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Man, I hope not. In terms of PvP, a "nerf Wardens" thread should be higher on the list of priorities.

i made that thread. nobody listened, so i made a warden.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374883/subterranean-assault-overperforming/p1

Stop being dumb @Thogard warden is perfectly balanced

Thogard

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Man, I hope not. In terms of PvP, a "nerf Wardens" thread should be higher on the list of priorities.

i made that thread. nobody listened, so i made a warden.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374883/subterranean-assault-overperforming/p1

Stop being dumb @Thogard warden is perfectly balanced

Youre right. Stamden is underpowered if anything because i cant do as much DPS in trials as an OP stam DK.

BTW Here is a pic of a true BG champ.

MrTambourineManX

well, some people use battlegrounds to test builds, and hone pvp skill, and because there is really no penalty for doing so, i dont see why they shouldnt. Also there is no real incentive to play objective, theres no ranks, and realistically the leaderboard is a joke, all it reflects id who has the most free time on the server.

Gravord

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I still play objectives. I still try to cap every undefended flag I could get to

Thank you for so accurate description of whats wrong with bg game modes. You consider yourself good battleground player for avoiding fight... pvp mode that reward win for team that have most ppl avoiding fight and capping empty flags - what a horrible design.

Here few ideas how to turn this into actual pvp game modes:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390180/battlegrounds-changes-that-would-make-them-way-more-popular-and-enjoyable-to-play#latest

HatchetHaro

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Man, I hope not. In terms of PvP, a "nerf Wardens" thread should be higher on the list of priorities.

i made that thread. nobody listened, so i made a warden.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374883/subterranean-assault-overperforming/p1

Stop being dumb @Thogard warden is perfectly balanced

Youre right. Stamden is underpowered if anything because i cant do as much DPS in trials as an OP stam DK.

BTW Here is a pic of a true BG champ.

Man, thanks for posting that so I don't have to grab it and edit the names out, though I wouldn't use that as an accurate example of what I'm talking about since that's a pre-made that is incapable of disappointing each other.

How about this one? Same Discord, much more illustrative of my point.



1vXr with a ton of kills and low score, check. Lowest score in the whole match (except for one, which, based on his progress, was probably a fill-in somewhere in the middle of the match), check. Teammate struggling to get objectives and thus highest score in team, check.

If you're really going to glorify "throwing for kills", at least say so before the match so that other people may leave.

Gravord wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I still play objectives. I still try to cap every undefended flag I could get to

Thank you for so accurate description of whats wrong with bg game modes. You consider yourself good battleground player for avoiding fight... pvp mode that reward win for team that have most ppl avoiding fight and capping empty flags - what a horrible design.

Here few ideas how to turn this into actual pvp game modes:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390180/battlegrounds-changes-that-would-make-them-way-more-popular-and-enjoyable-to-play#latest

Yes, I consider myself a good Battlegrounds player because I play the objectives that let me and my team win, even if it means avoiding fights.

No, I don't consider myself a good PvP player because I really am not on par with all those 1vXrs when it comes to killing and surviving.

There's a difference.

I really do support your ideas on how to improve Battlegrounds, and I am completely fine with making actual fighting in objective-based BGs more rewarding.

I do whatever it takes to win for my team, not to get off to thrusting my overcompensating sword through people's gaping stomachs. If running around waving my death-shovel will help my team win the game, I'd gladly do it.

Gave you agree +1.

Thogard

Ooo is that me? could be. not sure.

i think what youre missing is that when you're in a pug, and youre playing domination or crazy king, once the score gets to a certain point the game is already over.

If I have potatoes on my team, and there's another team that is aggressively avoiding fights to go for flags, there's nothing i can do to win.

So I just kill as many of the flag grabbers as I can and hope my team will actually do something with the free room I'm clearing for them.

But they rarely do.

HatchetHaro

Thogard wrote: »

Ooo is that me? could be. not sure.

i think what youre missing is that when you're in a pug, and youre playing domination or crazy king, once the score gets to a certain point the game is already over.

If I have potatoes on my team, and there's another team that is aggressively avoiding fights to go for flags, there's nothing i can do to win.

So I just kill as many of the flag grabbers as I can and hope my team will actually do something with the free room I'm clearing for them.

But they rarely do.

If the match is unsalvagable then fine, go right on ahead. But if you actually become the cause of the loss, then, once more, there's your problem.

You can stop coming up with excuses and scenarios to justify your bloodlust. You're just in it for the hate tells and there's no talking you out of it.

brandonv516

If my score is higher than yours I win.

/Thread

Thogard

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Ooo is that me? could be. not sure.

i think what youre missing is that when you're in a pug, and youre playing domination or crazy king, once the score gets to a certain point the game is already over.

If I have potatoes on my team, and there's another team that is aggressively avoiding fights to go for flags, there's nothing i can do to win.

So I just kill as many of the flag grabbers as I can and hope my team will actually do something with the free room I'm clearing for them.

But they rarely do.

If the match is unsalvagable then fine, go right on ahead. But if you actually become the cause of the loss, then, once more, there's your problem.

You can stop coming up with excuses and scenarios to justify your bloodlust. You're just in it for the hate tells and there's no talking you out of it.

eh if you say so. But i tend to win more than my fair share of matches.

And even more when i try. But where's the fun in that?



If you want strong players to take the BGs seriously, then we need serious competition. Rarely is that the case. Too many potatoes on your team and you cant win against a premade. How is that competition?

But if it makes you feel better, please feel free to post your own pvp stats and your own win rate so i can see what an elite BG player's scorecard looks like

NyassaV

No offense... You are hilariously ignorant. But you sound like a decent person to have on a team so keep at it

KingYogi415

Myself and most other pvp'ers I know, really only care about deathmatch.

You can blame ZOS for not letting us choose to play what we like.

After I put up a couple 90k score runs, trials became boring.

Vet trials AND PVP is the true endgame, time to go hop on my sorc

Anethum

HatchetHaro wrote: »

The entire match, SorcBoi would just run around, mostly to Green side, and do nothing but try get kills. Meanwhile, the Purple team kept on capturing Red's relic because Red was powerless without Sorcboi helping to defend. I just watched the Red relic just drift over to the Purple's base on my compass, repeatedly, all the while I was trying to keep Sorcboi (and the legions of other enemy players) at bay from our own relic. SorcBoi never returned to his base to help defend; he just wanted kills.

The match ended with Purple winning 500 - 0 - 0. All of those points were Red relic captures.

I don't prefer deathmatches between modes, i like ~ all modes.
And like to do objectives in ~95%.
But, peoiple there can do what they want.
Even ignore objectives.
And their actions can punish themselves and their teams with that if u doing well.
Or, reward.

If your team didn't killed that one, its a serious reason to improve your team.

That sorcboi could act right, he saw premade, understood that will not win anyway wiht randoms vs u (maybe he had something personal vs u also) so just started to make u busy.
I've done same few times, when fighted vs dishonest premade team (players with bad reputation because of their behaviour included) to give win to no matter my or another enemy team simply in principle.

Anethum

Win or lose with music.

PhoenixGrey

I appreciate that whoever it was atleast tried to kill people. Better than riding the tank meta
Plus he was a sorc so bonus points for that

PhoenixGrey

Thogard wrote: »

And even more when i try. But where's the fun in that?



If you want strong players to take the BGs seriously, then we need serious competition. Rarely is that the case. Too many potatoes on your team and you cant win against a premade. How is that competition?

But if it makes you feel better, please feel free to post your own pvp stats and your own win rate so i can see what an elite BG player's scorecard looks like

I hope ZOS adjusts player's AP gain in battleground based on Kills/ deaths / Assists and not give free AP just for participation. That would encourage some aggressive gameplay

And it looks like you draw more deathmatches. Good for you

Thogard

The fact is, if you really want to “win” then you need to be in a premade. My win / loss rate on my magplar is much higher than my stamden because I usually group queue him instead of solo queue

If I’m solo queueing, I try to take the fight super seriously because I’m with PUGs and I’ll probably have to carry the team. I try to be good and play objective but then all of the sudden



Pretty much anyone with a bow makes me go squirrel chasing. And then three minutes and 8 kills later I look up and realize I somehow arrived at another team’s spawn point and my team is losing lol.

Thogard

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

And even more when i try. But where's the fun in that?



If you want strong players to take the BGs seriously, then we need serious competition. Rarely is that the case. Too many potatoes on your team and you cant win against a premade. How is that competition?

But if it makes you feel better, please feel free to post your own pvp stats and your own win rate so i can see what an elite BG player's scorecard looks like

I hope ZOS adjusts player's AP gain in battleground based on Kills/ deaths / Assists and not give free AP just for participation. That would encourage some aggressive gameplay

And it looks like you draw more deathmatches. Good for you

We can dream.. but i doubt that would happen. When you’re on there really aren’t too many other strong players. You, me, donjay, competence, and an Aussie premade for real late night BGs. Most other players are free kills and you and I would get all the AP just by farming each other’s teammates.

ChunkyCat

tldr?

VaranisArano

ChunkyCat wrote: »

tldr?

OP thinks players that queue for Battlegrounds and try to treat every game mode like a Deathmatch even though their team is clearly losing the objectives and thus the match are jerks.

JWillCHS

Thogard wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Man, I hope not. In terms of PvP, a "nerf Wardens" thread should be higher on the list of priorities.

i made that thread. nobody listened, so i made a warden.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374883/subterranean-assault-overperforming/p1

Hahahaha. I was wondering why you were playing Stamden. I've been trying to resist creating one myself.

JWillCHS

Kolache wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Shield stacking is the behavior that sickens me

Why...? The use of wards is perfectly logical and acceptable for a means of defense regarding magicka users. In just about every RPG I’ve played, magicka users can summon: Barriers, shields, wards, etc. as a means of defense. But because these things may appear to be overpowered within a PvP environment, the PvP crowd wants to go and have stacking removed. Knowing damn well it’s going to hurt the PvE crowd more than the PvP crowd.

I dunno, every other MMO/RPG I've played had "glass cannons" that could avoid damage for a brief period of time... shielding, blinking, kiting, pet tanking, whatever. Not face-tank spamming shields over and over. Some people are used to tanks that do lower damage than DPS, DPS that survive less than tanks, and healers that can heal to full but need peels because they're not great at mitigating damage... I mean that's the old-school paradigm, right?

If it is, I'm not sure how being able to indefinitely shield yourself leveraging the same stat that gives you damage makes sense. It's different from healing because it negates the need for healing most of the time... it's flawless mitigation governed by no cooldowns and a perpetually busted sustain system. Oh and shields can heal lol.

I think cost increase poisons were the best answer to this issue but people hate them as much as people hate shield stacking, and they certainly wreck less imba things than shield stacking too.

TLDR: No, I never played an MMO/RPG where my magic user/clothy/wizard/glass canon/DPS could choose to focus on keeping themselves alive while taking no damage as long as they needed to as needed.

I understand what you're talking about. But the reason why things like this exist is because the Elder Scrolls Online couldn't decided what it wanted to be. Even in the alpha they had tab targeting with abilities on lenghty cooldowns. The company would bring in a media group who said it didn't feel like TES. They made changes and then the same group would come back saying it doesn't feel like a MMORPG.

When classes have define roles, class specific itemization, and abilities the balancing of the game is easier. But ZoS wanted to "try" and stick with the TES motto, "play how you want". The freedom of ESO is a double edge sword.

If they were to limit player choice people would be upset. Something like that would be like the NGE update in Star Wars: Galaxies that killed the game. But its actually one of the reasons why most of my friends refuse to play ESO because they do not like the idea that a single class can do everything. In fact, I believe it contributes to how much MMORPGs are anti-social today verses the first generations of games in the genre.

Edit: if I had it my way there would be a damage, tanking, and healing skill line for each class. And only one can be active at any given time.

Although I like how unorthodox ESO can be. But this game is pretty !@#$%^ when it comes to balance. IT WILL NEVER BE FIX!

You should stick around for No-CP BGs. You might find it less frustrating.

Thogard

JWillCHS wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Man, I hope not. In terms of PvP, a "nerf Wardens" thread should be higher on the list of priorities.

i made that thread. nobody listened, so i made a warden.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374883/subterranean-assault-overperforming/p1

Hahahaha. I was wondering why you were playing Stamden. I've been trying to resist creating one myself.

Yup!

And if you’ll notice, my play style in game is exactly what I was complaining about in that thread.

PhoenixGrey

Thogard wrote: »

We can dream.. but i doubt that would happen. When you’re on there really aren’t too many other strong players. You, me, donjay, competence, and an Aussie premade for real late night BGs. Most other players are free kills and you and I would get all the AP just by farming each other’s teammates.

I am all for sharing AP with team mates. The real purpose of this change will be to encourage players to not run perma heal / perma block builds whatever game mode it might be.

React

I love playing bgs just for kills. In fact, I literally only go in there to play death match (which is every game mode). Truthfully as long as it is Cp enabled, there's no point for dps players to play the objective as long as the tank/heal/zergball meta reigns. Once it becomes no Cp perhaps I'll play an objective here and there, but until then I'm going to keep "dragging my team down" with my 15-40 kills every crazy king and domination game