On 1vX PvPrs and Battlegrounds Objectives - A Rant

HatchetHaro

There's one subject that has been on my mind lately, and that's on how 1vX PvPrs tend to call dedicated PvErs "carebears" and how they love to shove "PvP is the true endgame" crap in PvE raiders' faces.

But that's another topic for another time.

The focus of my rant today is the tendency for those 1vXrs to do Battlegrounds and run around and kill people, nothing else. In other words, they are pretty much completely useless to the team in objective-based matches (which is every single one of them but Deathmatch).

Now, I'm a PvEr. I do a lot of endgame PvE content, scorepushing trials to a good amount of success with my favorite people in Outbreak. That doesn't mean that I don't do PvP.
I've been playing in Battlegrounds since Horns of the Reach on my stam DK, back then running around in divines Hunding's Rage gear and a 2H Maelstrom sword and spamming Dizzying Swing and still performing moderately well.

I say "moderately well", because most of the times I top the group scoreboard or is at least in the top half for my group. That's because I focus on the objectives in each match, whether it be Domination or Capture the Relic, and I find it a lot of fun to be flipping those flags while avoiding the enemy team and sneaking around focused fights to grab the enemy relics right under their noses.

Right now in Clockwork City, I have my stam DK mostly specced into my PvP gear and CP, with actual decent Automaton gear this time, though I do break out my PvE gear a few times a week to do trials (I mostly leave that to my stamsorc now).

And I like to consider myself pretty decent at Battlegrounds now, to be honest. Sure, I may not be up to par with others when it comes to PvP, but I still make it to the top of my group scores most of the time, and even in the top half of all three Battlegrounds weekly leaderboards.

That's because, after all this time, I still play objectives. I still try to cap every undefended flag I could get to, I still try to sneak relics out from under enemy noses and defend my team's relic at the same time, I still try to grab the ball and stay alive as much as possible, and I still try to find the power sigils to gain an unfair advantage for my team.


One particular pattern I've been noticing recently, though, is that some of the people that I consider "good PvPrs" have no place in Battlegrounds.

I was playing a Capture the Relic match earlier today, and one of those 1vX PvPrs was on the other team. Let's call that guy "SorcBoi", because he was a shield-stacking magsorc with a lot of burst and an execute; annoyingly hard to kill and frustratingly powerful.

SorcBoi was on the Red team (I'll be calling the teams Red, Green, and Purple). I was on Green.

The entire match, SorcBoi would just run around, mostly to Green side, and do nothing but try get kills. Meanwhile, the Purple team kept on capturing Red's relic because Red was powerless without Sorcboi helping to defend. I just watched the Red relic just drift over to the Purple's base on my compass, repeatedly, all the while I was trying to keep Sorcboi (and the legions of other enemy players) at bay from our own relic. SorcBoi never returned to his base to help defend; he just wanted kills.

The match ended with Purple winning 500 - 0 - 0. All of those points were Red relic captures.

[Snip]
[The moderators have decided to remove this part because they believed "SorcBoi" was a real name, even though it was already specified it was a fake name in in the previous paragraph]
[And they didn't remove those]
[Anyway, basically, it was just a chatlog where I messaged "SorcBoi" and he said that he couldn't give a s*** about his team, and that I felt sorry for his teammates for bring grouped up with someone throwing the game]

In the many Battlegrounds matches I've played, I've been seeing 1vXrs just ignoring objectives, lost in their bloodlust, with their K/D ratio being the only thing on their minds. And every single time, they end up at the bottom of the end-of-match scoreboard because they didn't do objectives, and most of the time on one of the losing teams where some poor squishy sod grouped up with them was trying hard to actually do the objectives. Some of those times, I was that poor squishy sod.

I'm actually pals with a couple of those 1vXrs, and I ended up in their Discord server one evening when I was in a group with them. (Pre-mades! In BGs! Ahh!)

They brag about that crap! They would post screenshots of their end-of-match scoreboard with their team completely wiped out but a personal 22-0-25 K/D/A ratio.

I have nothing against being good at killing other people, but when they're so damn engrossed with that without caring about the objectives in Battlegrounds, they become nothing but dead weight and a detriment to their team. Even if they do not care about their team, their team cares about doing well, but if a supposed teammate just runs off and leaves them stranded, they're pretty much screwed.

That behaviour sickens me. The mentality of it is truly disgusting.

If you are one of those PvPrs, please, do all of us a favor, and go into Cyrodiil instead. There, you get to kill as many people to your heart's content, perhaps wipe out a zerg of lowbies on your own, and most of all, you won't be a letdown to anyone.

If you would prefer to stay in Battlegrounds, here's a novel idea: how about get kills on the objective? Yes! You can both kill people and stay on the objectives! Amazing! How does it work? See, in an objective-based game, people are bound to gather... [drumroll]... around the objectives!


On an off note, I would have said the same to low CP (sub CP160) people looking to do BGs just to unlock Caltrops, and therefore also being a detriment to the team, but at least those people know how to take instructions, and we could still scrap together a win just by doing objectives. (But really, go into Cyrodiil; again, there, you won't be a letdown to anyone, and you get more AP this way. Trust me, it's faster there.)

[Edited to remove name-and-shame]
[Which was actually inapplicable because who in Oblivion even is "SorcBoi" lmao]

Ch4mpTW

My body is ready for this thread.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

PvP is broken and it was since early access...I don't see it changing in the near future cuz its not profitable since we don't matter but people who buy casual stuff from CS and demand more content to spend their 1 hour per week in...the fact that bgs and cyrodill are a broken wasteland its the proof of that...people gave up and left when they couldn't take it anymore.

Apache_Kid

Look I'm not one for all the labels and everything but I do get pissed off when my team isn't playing the objectives in BGs. But I've been like that for every online team game I've ever played.

Rohamad_Ali

Not only do they not care but they count these salty threads as points too ...

Neoauspex

Shield stacking is the behavior that sickens me

Universe

1vx is extremely hard when facing normal players(690+ cp, know what they are doing) in ESO and some say it doesn't even exist.
If you're facing good players, the chances you will win are basically 0 as it should be(balanced).
The only thing that 1vx can do is to measure how much time you last until you fail.

I can agree that some 1vx or inexperienced people are making Domination, Chaos Ball and other battleground modes to Deathmatch and they just go to kill people without any regard to the mode's objectives.
While I agree it is selfish and have no real practical use, they have the right to do whatever they want the moment they step into the battleground.
I always help my team when I enter battlegrounds and I do try to help those who don't know the objectives or forgot them, but if someone prefers to do something else instead I will leave it be since it his right to do so(as frustrating it can be).

Ch4mpTW

Neoauspex wrote: »

Shield stacking is the behavior that sickens me

Why...? The use of wards is perfectly logical and acceptable for a means of defense regarding magicka users. In just about every RPG I’ve played, magicka users can summon: Barriers, shields, wards, etc. as a means of defense. But because these things may appear to be overpowered within a PvP environment, the PvP crowd wants to go and have stacking removed. Knowing damn well it’s going to hurt the PvE crowd more than the PvP crowd.

Haven’t you all hurt the PvE’ers enough? Seriously. No more Bolt Escape repeated usage (without magicka penalties), no more repeated dodge rolling, no more stamina regeneration while blocking, Destruction Staff ultimate toned down, shield duration decreased, proc sets being able to crit, etc. And it just goes on and on and on. Patch after patch. And then because the devs day, “No! It wasn’t because of the PvP’ers throwing a fit that we nerfed these things.” You all parrot how it wasn’t you all’s fault, knowing that it wasn’t us on the PvE spectrum making complaints about these things. Why? Why do all do this?

I’m going to say it once more, because apparently people within the PvP crowd refuse to understand. This game will NEVER have true balance from a PvP perspective. Ever. And the reason behind this, is because they refuse to seperate the balancing of PvE and PvP. Regardless of the numerous complaints the players have made for years, they won’t budge on it. Why? Because it’s too much work for them (laziness), and they have their own vision in mind. Screw what the consumers want, even though we are the ones who are lacing their pockets and buying their content. N’ah. If it isn’t apart of the script, it gets ignored. End of. We can: Act a fool, rant, rave, etc. And it won’t mean a bit of difference. As is ole’ Wrobel balances things as if he’s throwing darts at a dartboard. Lol. What makes you think that these jokers are going to do the right thing for once?

coop500

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

My body is ready for this thread.

My thoughts exactly~
I agree with him, but it's gonna be amusing nonetheless

Firstmep

Tbh if we could choose gamemodes id go with Tdm Most of the time. After years of fighting in cyro, i had enough objective based gameplay.
Also in a lot of current Bg modes you can wins without ever fighting another player. Domination is a prime example of that. So many grps just run around as one and rotate around the map instacapping frags.
Im sorry but this is pvp, if i wanted to avoid fighting id go farm resource in Cyrodiil for much better gains.
Also worth mentioning that for a lot of your so called 1vxers, bgs were the first place where they could get outnumbered fights, without the risk of being run over by a 20 man grp.
That being said i still play for objectives since i like winning, winning is fun.
But i usually do it in a way that allow me to also fight players. So for example in ctr mode i go to the enemy based and try to wipe their entire defensive squad and grab the relic while theyre waiting to respawn.
Im actually okay with chaos balls and crazy king, beacuse while objective based, they force you to fight the opposition in other to win.
While were at it pls remove domination, hand down the worse mode and crazy king is pretty much the same exept a billion times better.

Biro123

Thing is, the pvpers mostly just want to fight. BGs gives a lot of fights in a short period of time, and without the lagfest that is cyro.

Problem is that BGs objectives fail. They should be providing a focal point for the players to fight over, instead they do the opposite, making it so that NOT fighting is the best thing for the win.

Just let ppl fight ppl.

alephthiago

Its his morrowind, its his money and he plays as he likes, i dont like the fact that you dont get to choose the type of match you are playing and the fact that there are few players playing BGs because of ZOS bad decisions.
While he cant queue only for death match and you cant queue for capture the flag, relic etc...both of you should play as you see fit.

Buffler

I dont care about objectives, in cyrodiil or bg's. I enjoy combat in bg's because im not going to get zerged down by a 24 man group of scrubs.

VaranisArano

If ZOS gave those players the chance to choose which mode they could play, the Battlegrounds queue would be 95% Deathmatches.

Thogard

The nerve of people like that! It really grinds my gears.

Valen_Byte

alephthiago wrote: »

Its his morrowind, its his money and he plays as he likes, i dont like the fact that you dont get to choose the type of match you are playing and the fact that there are few players playing BGs because of ZOS bad decisions.
While he cant queue only for death match and you cant queue for capture the flag, relic etc...both of you should play as you see fit.

This. Make it so we can choose and then all the 1vxers will choose Deathmatch. The rest of us can play the game as it was meant. Objectives.

Rainraven

HatchetHaro wrote: »

One particular pattern I've been noticing recently, though, is that the people that I consider "good PvPrs" have no place in Battlegrounds.

Really? All of them?

I guess that's one possible outcome of a PVP design philosophy that values flag-taking much more highly than fighting other players.

shrug

VaranisArano

Generally, PVPers go to Battlegrounds when they want to a fight a small scale fight without the risk of getting run down by greater numbers.

They don't - generally speaking - go to Battlegrounds when they want to capture a flag without the risk of getting run down by greater numbers. We could go to Imperial City or a dead campaign in Cyrodiil if we wanted that.

Joy_Division

There are always extremes.

For the most part though, if a good fight happens organically in the context of the BG, I'm going to stay and finish it. I just am. It's why I PvP in the first place. I find it ridiculous and utterly unsatisfying many of the BG games/objectives reward people for running away and not fighting. If it's actually a good fight (i.e. not the same as spamming abilities into Mr. Perma-block tank that is incapable of killing anything), I am going to finish it even if it's not advantageous to the scoreboard.

You might not like being called a carebear, but you don't seem to mind trash talking and calling other people who play the game differently than you derogatory names. Maybe its karma you and Sorc Boi wound up in the same BG match.

Thogard

I just can't believe that players would actually do something so horrible!

DoctorESO

.

Thogard

DoctorESO wrote: »

Quite frankly, it's not worth getting frustrated over. Better to just play another aspect of the game.

I agree. Trials are far more competitive than PvP - OP should join us there.

Zer0oo

Sorc and frustratingly powerful? Mag sorcs are kind of a bad joke in terms of actual combat against good players in pvp but still good at killing bad players in light or medium armor.

Yes, someone ignoring the object of the game mode is really annoying(i hatted when someone was doing that) but after playing bg long enough you really find it frustrating that actual playing pvp in counterproductive and running without fighting is most of the time the winning strat. As someone who really pissed how bad the gamemode design is, i will also most of the time not really play the objective and will actually fight instead of running around.

Lexxypwns

I always try to care about objectives. If one team is dominating the objectives too much and I know we won’t possibly win I just start playing for fun.

I won’t leave a good fight to focus an objective though but I will try to kite a fight to an objective so that I can get both

Solariken

I love the objective games, and I too get frustrated when people just want to deathmatch everything, or worse - grief killing. It's only going to get wose when ZOS increases the free match-end AP next patch. They REALLY need to tie AP gains primarily to medal score.

HatchetHaro

Rainraven wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

One particular pattern I've been noticing recently, though, is that the people that I consider "good PvPrs" have no place in Battlegrounds.

Really? All of them?

I guess that's one possible outcome of a PVP design philosophy that values flag-taking much more highly than fighting other players.

shrug

It was an oversight on my part. My apologies. I have edited it to state specifically that it only applies to some, not all, of the people I consider "good PvPrs". I have played with many people who can 1vX properly and still play the objective.

:O You can kill things and be on the objective!? Unthinkable!

But yes, just a minor typing mistake. I've also added that into my suggestions for 1vXrs in the post itself.

CyrusArya

I play and enjoy PvP for the mechanics and actual combat, not some irrelevant PvDoor. It’s the same difference between small scalers/ groups that look for fights, and those that care about the alliance war and play for points and scoring. Being able to run a relic or hold on to a chaosball does not demonstrate skill or stimulate high octane PvP. Quite the opposite rather. It rewards lame Tank builds that literally build to not fight. As such, I will gladly play the objective in deathmatch or domination or crazy king...modes that encourage and set up actual PvP. The PvDoor modes tho? Nah I think I’ll just use those modes as target practice.

I bet you’re also the guy that thinks seiging a keep and capturing a flag with a train of zerglings is skillful and distinguished gameplay, but 1vX, small scaling and organized group vs group fights are pointless distractions. Our preferences and philosophies cannot be reconciled, and so let’s agree to disagree. I do not see the point of your rambling though...are you looking for validation of your views? Cus the only thing this accomplishes is ensuring that the “sorcbois” of your platform and server get an extra dopamine kick every time they pop you.

HatchetHaro

CyrusArya wrote: »

I play and enjoy PvP for the mechanics and actual combat, not some irrelevant PvDoor. It’s the same difference between small scalers/ groups that look for fights, and those that care about the alliance war and play for points and scoring. Being able to run a relic or hold on to a chaosball does not demonstrate skill or stimulate high octane PvP. Quite the opposite rather. It rewards lame Tank builds that literally build to not fight. As such, I will gladly play the objective in deathmatch or domination or crazy king...modes that encourage and set up actual PvP. The PvDoor modes tho? Nah I think I’ll just use those modes as target practice.

I bet you’re also the guy that thinks seiging a keep and capturing a flag with a train of zerglings is skillful and distinguished gameplay, but 1vX, small scaling and organized group vs group fights are pointless distractions. Our preferences and philosophies cannot be reconciled, and so let’s agree to disagree. I do not see the point of your rambling though...are you looking for validation of your views? Cus the only thing this accomplishes is ensuring that the “sorcbois” of your platform and server get an extra dopamine kick every time they pop you.

Wow, assumptions assumptions assumptions, all because I made a point against leaving your team just to pursue your own bloodlust fantasies.

I never touched on tank builds, but here's my thought: they're way too OP right now. I'm hoping for nerfs next patch because I agree that that stuff does not demonstrate skill.

Here, I will be talking from my own experience as a stam DK in medium armor.

Running a relic and holding onto a chaosball does demonstrate skill. Running a relic at least demonstrates that you know how to manipulate the battlefield and find an efficient route through the fighting, and to exploit opportunities to sneak past enemy defenses; in the same vein, defending a relic from an assault and being able to interrupt people trying to sneak past you while another tries to distract you with some fighting demonstrates awareness. Holding onto a chaosball requires that you are able to survive under pressure, and I've done many chaosball matches wearing medium armor; it does take skill to be able to evade your enemies long enough to stack more points. Some hiding spots are a bit cheesy though, such as the one behind the crates upstairs in the laboratory at the Arcane University, so I'm looking forward to those being patched up.

I don't zerg in Cyrodiil. I don't even like Cyrodiil; that's why I enjoy Battlegrounds instead. I do not think that zerging is "skillful and distingushed gameplay", but I also do not consider leaving your teammates behind to fend for themselves on the objective while you run away to indulge in pointless killing that ends up being counterproductive to your team "skillful and distingushed gameplay".

My point is that in Battlegrounds, people should be working as a team. If you throw a match by being a selfish kill-hogging jerk, you end up affecting the rest of your group. There's no "looking for validation of my views"; I am just simply making a point that this selfish behavior is immoral and there are solutions that can still satisfy everyone.

Thogard

HatchetHaro wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

I play and enjoy PvP for the mechanics and actual combat, not some irrelevant PvDoor. It’s the same difference between small scalers/ groups that look for fights, and those that care about the alliance war and play for points and scoring. Being able to run a relic or hold on to a chaosball does not demonstrate skill or stimulate high octane PvP. Quite the opposite rather. It rewards lame Tank builds that literally build to not fight. As such, I will gladly play the objective in deathmatch or domination or crazy king...modes that encourage and set up actual PvP. The PvDoor modes tho? Nah I think I’ll just use those modes as target practice.

I bet you’re also the guy that thinks seiging a keep and capturing a flag with a train of zerglings is skillful and distinguished gameplay, but 1vX, small scaling and organized group vs group fights are pointless distractions. Our preferences and philosophies cannot be reconciled, and so let’s agree to disagree. I do not see the point of your rambling though...are you looking for validation of your views? Cus the only thing this accomplishes is ensuring that the “sorcbois” of your platform and server get an extra dopamine kick every time they pop you.

Wow, assumptions assumptions assumptions, all because I made a point against leaving your team just to pursue your own bloodlust fantasies.

I never touched on tank builds, but here's my thought: they're way too OP right now. I'm hoping for nerfs next patch because I agree that that stuff does not demonstrate skill.

Here, I will be talking from my own experience as a stam DK in medium armor.

Running a relic and holding onto a chaosball does demonstrate skill. Running a relic at least demonstrates that you know how to manipulate the battlefield and find an efficient route through the fighting, and to exploit opportunities to sneak past enemy defenses; in the same vein, defending a relic from an assault and being able to interrupt people trying to sneak past you while another tries to distract you with some fighting demonstrates awareness. Holding onto a chaosball requires that you are able to survive under pressure, and I've done many chaosball matches wearing medium armor; it does take skill to be able to evade your enemies long enough to stack more points. Some hiding spots are a bit cheesy though, such as the one behind the crates upstairs in the laboratory at the Arcane University, so I'm looking forward to those being patched up.

I don't zerg in Cyrodiil. I don't even like Cyrodiil; that's why I enjoy Battlegrounds instead. I do not think that zerging is "skillful and distingushed gameplay", but I also do not think that leaving your teammates behind to fend for themselves on the objective while you run away to indulge in pointless killing that ends up being counterproductive to your team "skillful and distingushed gameplay".

My point is that in Battlegrounds, people should be working as a team. If you throw a match by being a selfish kill-hogging jerk, you end up affecting the rest of your group. There's no "looking for validation of my views"; I am just simply making a point that this selfish behavior is immoral and there are solutions that can still satisfy everyone.

Im going to be real with you for a second

If you have a teammate that goes 20-0 in a BG and your team still loses the objective, that’s your fault, not his/hers.

The most effective strategy in modes like CTR, domination, and crazy king is spawn camping the enemy so they can’t cap or defend flags or relics. Assuming this Xv1er is locking down three enemy players, It gives you and the rest of your team a 3-1 advantage.

If you can’t pull a win out of those circumstances it shows a serious lack of ability on your part.

zyk

I think this is basically the reason we didn't get the full Justice system. It would need to be designed very well to prevent the typical scenario in ESO PVP which is hardcore players vs casual randoms.

With that said, the true root of the issue you describe is the design of Battlegrounds that prevents players from avoiding the game modes they're not into.

UppGRAYxDD

Inb4 this becomes a nerf sorc thread...