Cliff Racer needs counter play

irstarkey57

Death recap : Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer

People that have to do a lot more than spam one button need a way to counter this skill. Can't even roll dodge it? This needs fixed. Easy fix? Be able to roll dodge it. They are hitting for 5k average in Bgs. That's absurd. Ranged spammable you can't counter? No.

Defilted

Block? and moving out of LOS so they cannot continue to cast it while taking some damage?

Sharee

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Death recap : Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer

People that have to do a lot more than spam one button need a way to counter this skill. Can't even roll dodge it? This needs fixed. Easy fix? Be able to roll dodge it. They are hitting for 5k average in Bgs. That's absurd. Ranged spammable you can't counter? No.

How many buttons does one need to spam to roll dodge?

KingYogi415

It’s called block or stealth.

DKsUnite

only having block as a counter isn't good game design because without investing in block cost reduction, block costs alot. It doesn't take many birds to take you down to 0 stamina and then you are screwed.

Drakkdjinn

They won't balance this skill until they feel enough people have paid for access to Warden, this is their grand vision.

Danksta

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

They won't balance this skill until they feel enough people have paid for access to Warden, this is their grand vision.

They shouldn't have made it so horrible for PvE DPS then...

VaranisArano

If you are running away from me and you don't LOS, your death recap is going to look like cliff racer + poison injection, just saying. When you block or LOS, you at least make me work for it and even get the opportunity to run me out of resources and thus turn the tables.

JobooAGS

l2p

SodanTok

Making medium less awful
Removing 15% damage bonus from range on magicka bird and replace it with pve buffing morph (on stam bird too)
Making blocking less awful when used just to block one attack (like regen debuff going from 0 to -100% in 4 seconds, same for selfsnare)
Improving absorb attacks so they all absorb properly and are interesting to use (not OP as warden shield, but not as weak as SnB absorb) possibly even making one wings morph absorb instead of reflect

... would all go greatly to improve the gameplay without actually touching the undodgeability of birds. Which have every counterplay in the game, except dodge roll and very rare reflect.

Drakkdjinn

Danksta wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

They won't balance this skill until they feel enough people have paid for access to Warden, this is their grand vision.

They shouldn't have made it so horrible for PvE DPS then...

Good thing we're talking about the effect of the skill that has zero relevance to PvE DPS, then. You still lost?

DocFrost72

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Death recap : Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer, Cliff Racer

People that have to do a lot more than spam one button need a way to counter this skill. Can't even roll dodge it? This needs fixed. Easy fix? Be able to roll dodge it. They are hitting for 5k average in Bgs. That's absurd. Ranged spammable you can't counter? No.

Block. Wanna get fancy? Block and heal. Wanna get super duper fancy? Block and CC and heal. Ready for the best? Block, CC, LOS, drop block, heal.

Some things will counter roll dodge. Some things will counter block. I've only ever had trouble with bird when I am not putting any pressure on my opponent or there's one dude in the back spamming it- that's just my problem or outnumbered reality. You can make bird dodgeable and those situations you'll still lose.

Slick_007

Defilted wrote: »

Block? and moving out of LOS so they cannot continue to cast it while taking some damage?

block wont help you for that long. and you cant get out of line of sight while holding block. you move far too slow.
my nb couldnt even outrun the guy spamming this. and if id run to him, likely would have died shortly after getting close. before i could do anything to them.
couldnt roll doge it, couldnt outrun them and hence couldnt los them. if you start far enough way as i did and you cant sprint away without copping it spam, theres something not right.

i think the only solution would be to increase the cast cost for it, since you cant give it a cooldown without doing the same to every other class

KingYogi415

There is something like a 25% buff to all blocking coming this next patch. So there is your buff!

Kiara

Well, they actually made cliff racers annoying again! That was the idea from the beginning, to experience Vvardenfell frustrating birds again!

VaranisArano

Kiara wrote: »

Well, they actually made cliff racers annoying again! That was the idea from the beginning, to experience Vvardenfell frustrating birds again!

Kiara

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kiara wrote: »

Well, they actually made cliff racers annoying again! That was the idea from the beginning, to experience Vvardenfell frustrating birds again!

Oh god, made my day!

f047ys3v3n

I thought cliff racer was ZOS idea of a counter for guys running 80% dodge chance through cheat engine. It does seem to be the only way groups I have run with have killed those fairly common pesky vermin.

In all seriousness though, 2 cloaks (1 to prevent re-targeting of future birds and the second to cloak after the last bird hits) generally does the trick. Also, if they are hitting you for 5k than 1) you are way too squishy or 2) that particular warden is cheating. Birds are not crystal frags, they don't hit that hard.

I should note that I am not defending wardens because I do not think they are OP in Cyr. I do think they are OP but this is not because one skill is unique and good. It is because they have a combination of things that is just better and broader than what most others have and includes skills very similar to the strongest skills of others. A reflect, OP heals, a nice delayed DOT, a couple great ultis (my NB has no ultis by the way,) crazy strong support skills, great access to major buffs though otherwise useful skills, Warden does well in PVP.

Chilly-McFreeze

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I thought cliff racer was ZOS idea of a counter for guys running 80% dodge chance through cheat engine. It does seem to be the only way groups I have run with have killed those fairly common pesky vermin.

In all seriousness though, 2 cloaks (1 to prevent re-targeting of future birds and the second to cloak after the last bird hits) generally does the trick. Also, if they are hitting you for 5k than 1) you are way too squishy or 2) that particular warden is cheating. Birds are not crystal frags, they don't hit that hard.

Where do I find this cloak skill on my sorc and templar?

And being squishy when hit by a 5k cliffracer? What I'm supposed to run, a full tank setup? I got hit for this and more in 6 heavy with Impregnable even in no CP.

I think it is a bit simple to call everything cheating.

BohnT

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I thought cliff racer was ZOS idea of a counter for guys running 80% dodge chance through cheat engine. It does seem to be the only way groups I have run with have killed those fairly common pesky vermin.

In all seriousness though, 2 cloaks (1 to prevent re-targeting of future birds and the second to cloak after the last bird hits) generally does the trick. Also, if they are hitting you for 5k than 1) you are way too squishy or 2) that particular warden is cheating. Birds are not crystal frags, they don't hit that hard.

I should note that I am not defending wardens because I do not think they are OP in Cyr. I do think they are OP but this is not because one skill is unique and good. It is because they have a combination of things that is just better and broader than what most others have and includes skills very similar to the strongest skills of others. A reflect, OP heals, a nice delayed DOT, a couple great ultis (my NB has no ultis by the way,) crazy strong support skills, great access to major buffs though otherwise useful skills, Warden does well in PVP.

1. There is no dodge cheating anymore it's LoS+ dodge and shuffle =/= cheats
2. 5k brids are what you get on a normal warden build and still no cheating involved
3. if you don't see that nb ults are very strong except for Veil of Blades

Birds need accessible counterplay for every class and that is dodge

Mustard

The purpose of block is to mitigate damage from all abilities and not be true a counter. Saying dodge roll cheaters just makes everyone think you have no clue about the game and just bitter. Cloak is the only counter and is not reliable. I see no reason why any ability should not be dodgeable or reflectable in the game. We already have a dodge roll penalty from all the cry babies and they should remove dodge chance from shuffle / double take and make everything dodgeable / reflectable while keeping the dodge roll penalty.

People that defend non dodgeable / reflectable abilities are generally zerglings or bad players that get upset they can’t kill people va learning the game. God forbid if someone is better than you and you can’t kill them with mindless abilities.

jaws343

If someone is only hitting you with cliff racers, the easiest method of defense is to pressure them into doing something else. Attack them, cc them, and get right in their face, they will have to go on the defensive. Bird spam will kill your resource very quickly. They are far better used as a pseudo execute or as a way to counter shuffle. I only ever use 2 or 3 in a row when a player is below 30-40%.

OdinForge

Bird probably should be another delayed burst skill. One that you cast on a player and need to wait for it to hit, before recasting it.

Either that or make it dodgable since it's cheaper to just recast the ability anyway, and when you have multiple wardens birding someone it's silly.

I'm convinced that anyone acting like block or LOS as effective counter-play is simply just a zergling.

BohnT

OdinForge wrote: »

Bird probably should be another delayed burst skill. One that you cast on a player and need to wait for it to hit, before recasting it.

Either that or make it dodgable since it's cheaper to just recast the ability anyway, and when you have multiple wardens birding someone it's silly.

I'm convinced that anyone acting like block or LOS as effective counter-play is simply just a zergling.

More delayed burst for warden doesn't seem like a good idea.
Making it dodgeable would make it fine for pvp and wouldn't change a thing for pve. And warden already has an ability that ignores dodge and block

OdinForge

BohnT wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Bird probably should be another delayed burst skill. One that you cast on a player and need to wait for it to hit, before recasting it.

Either that or make it dodgable since it's cheaper to just recast the ability anyway, and when you have multiple wardens birding someone it's silly.

I'm convinced that anyone acting like block or LOS as effective counter-play is simply just a zergling.

More delayed burst for warden doesn't seem like a good idea.
Making it dodgeable would make it fine for pvp and wouldn't change a thing for pve. And warden already has an ability that ignores dodge and block

I'm sure the only problem they would have with making it dodgable, would be that it'd be too easy to deal with it 1v1. But then it's a poorly designed skill anyway.

I'd be fine with it not being dodgable and retaining its damage, if it acted as another delayed burst. You time it with shalks and another source of damage, making it useful in 1v1s and still very strong Xv1 minus the ability to mindlessly spam it.

BohnT

OdinForge wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Bird probably should be another delayed burst skill. One that you cast on a player and need to wait for it to hit, before recasting it.

Either that or make it dodgable since it's cheaper to just recast the ability anyway, and when you have multiple wardens birding someone it's silly.

I'm convinced that anyone acting like block or LOS as effective counter-play is simply just a zergling.

More delayed burst for warden doesn't seem like a good idea.
Making it dodgeable would make it fine for pvp and wouldn't change a thing for pve. And warden already has an ability that ignores dodge and block

I'm sure the only problem they would have with making it dodgable, would be that it'd be too easy to deal with it 1v1. But then it's a poorly designed skill anyway.

I'd be fine with it not being dodgable and retaining its damage, if it acted as another delayed burst. You time it with shalks and another source of damage, making it useful in 1v1s and still very strong Xv1 minus the ability to mindlessly spam it.

Well with the cost penalty of dodge people can't avoid it infinitely and as it has no counterplay you still take some of the birds but not all.
Or they could just speed up the animation / travel time, reduce the damage by 5-10% and make it dodgeable.

Waffennacht

Don't be medium armor, unless ganking, thought ZoS made this clear by now

NyassaV

EVERYTHING WARDEN HAS NEEDS COUNTERPLAY ALRIGHT... That's why it's broken

kojou

OdinForge wrote: »

Bird probably should be another delayed burst skill. One that you cast on a player and need to wait for it to hit, before recasting it.

Either that or make it dodgable since it's cheaper to just recast the ability anyway, and when you have multiple wardens birding someone it's silly.

I'm convinced that anyone acting like block or LOS as effective counter-play is simply just a zergling.

Give it a 1.1 second interruptible cast time like Snipe...

BohnT

Waffennacht wrote: »

Don't be medium armor, unless ganking, thought ZoS made this clear by now

And give up everything to remove snares and then fail to kill the warden which can easily run heavy with enough damage and healing? While you still die to birds because you can't permablock and LoS isn't viable counterplay to a spammable from one of the most mobile classes.

Waffennacht

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Don't be medium armor, unless ganking, thought ZoS made this clear by now

And give up everything to remove snares and then fail to kill the warden which can easily run heavy with enough damage and healing? While you still die to birds because you can't permablock and LoS isn't viable counterplay to a spammable from one of the most mobile classes.

You run 7th, Ravager, or Fury or you're doing heavy wrong