Idea: Training dungeon for ALL roles

DoctorESO

.

LordSemaj

DoctorESO wrote: »

Sometimes you can't blame people when they come to ESO from Skyrim. What do you do in Skyrim? Light or heavy attack spam.

Yep. It's even been a topic brought up now and then for years. People like spamming and will keep doing it regardless of whether it's effective or not.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/146608/no-more-skill-spamming

Huyen

There was a system like this in WoW Warlords of Draenor. It failed big time.

In WoW it was required at the time to enter heroic dungeons (wich were still way to easy) but due the timed version of the training-grounds, it was to hard for most people, who were not as quick on their wits as the more hardcore players were. I agree to disagree on this one.

richo262

It wouldn't even need to be a dungeon. It could just be a small room with 2 or 3 waves of mobs and a boss fight at the end with 3 NPC's playing the other roles.

It could be like a very brief quest. Similar to those quests that already exist where you assume the body of somebody else.

It could be like a memory stone where no matter the character you are, if you hit the 'tank' memory stone it will send you into a dungeon using a premade character, with a predefined set of skills and stats, and it acts as a tutorial so new players understand roughly the load out and skills required to tank.

They could be the memory stones of fallen Undaunted comrads that were well known, could have some good lore / back story to it as well.

Then it would teach taunting and various other tactics standard to all tanks. Just to act as rough template for players that are new and have no clue what tanking is. Also equally so you could have a Stam DPS, Mag DPS and Healer memory stone.

All found in the undaunted enclave.

Aisle9

idk wrote: »

We already have training dungeons. It is the normal dungeons.

As for having an arbitrary goal someone has to do the question is who sets that goal? The ones listed I expect are not really intended.

What I think you should be able to do and what you think you should be able to do is probably not the same. Should we have a boss fight in this dungeon without adds and require dps to pull a low 30k minimum dps to be able to dps in the other dungeons. Maybe 20k for normal and 30k for vet level.

As for healer, in most dungeons if someone dies it is more likely than not their fault. Most of the time I heal I also deal dps because there is not much healing unless the group is less skilled. Even then some die, they stand in stupid, miss a mechanic or something like that.

Not going to even get into the tank role. So many dungeons really do not require a tank.

So in the end, it is not happening. No one will be able to agree on what should be required nor how to go about it.

If you do not like the groups you get in GF just form your own group. If you are in a decent guild it is pretty simple. Heck, form it from zone if the guild route is to much trouble.

DPS races are part of certain mechanics of certain bosses, so, yes, in some cases you should be able to do enough damage to pass the dps race.

Blocking or dodging a certain projectile or attack is also part of certain boss mechanics (most last bosses in vanilla dungeons have a mechanic that targets a random group member and it's not interruptible or avoidable).

Bashing or otherwise interrupting a mechanic that disable the tank is also a mechanic in most dungeons.

Purging a negative effect that would result in a one-shot mechanic, killing an add that shields or buff a boss, I could go on.

Most dungeons, even if we're just considering the vanilla dungeons, have a certain number of mechanics, so knowing how to deal with said mechanics (bashing, blocking, deal enough damage, purging), so to answer your question, the game sets those goals, when it requires players to execute them to complete a dungeon.

How to go about it, really easy, let me illustrate.

The Secret World had 3 difficulty for dungeons, normal, elite and nightmare. Normal difficulty were available right away, elite were unlocked once you reached a certain rank in your faction (a fairly low one), but the nightmare difficulty required you to complete a challenge:

If you chose the dps challenge the fight you would face a stationary boss in 3 phases. Phase 1 is a dps race, a certain amount of damage was needed in a certain amount of time, if it fails you get killed by an attack called "Too slow", meanwhile you have to avoid telegraphs. Phase 2 required you to purge the boss when a certain tell was shown, while a you keep doing damage, if you miss the tell, you get killed by "Too slow". Phase 3 an add spawn and you have to kite while doing damage, if the add catches you it kills you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcBzqZV72TM&t=21s


Similarly, the tank challenge requires you to hold aggro while an add does damage, to interrupt a mechanic and to avoid telegraphs.

I've never done the healer challenge, but I've been told it's about healing an add and using a clense.

This was specifically made to teach players about mechanics in nightmare dungeons (dps race, purge, adds), which was not part of the regular tutorial training.

The point is, they're not arbitrary if the game requires them. They are very specific.

If you don't do enough damage in an X amount of time there's a one-shot mechanic. If you don't bash the tank will die. If you don't purge the dot will increase the damage every second till it's more than your health. If you don't spread or move out of a certain area, you will die.

What is required is a number of mechanics required to complete the dungeon:
- DPS race.
- Interrupts.
- Avoid telegraphs.
- Dodge or block projectiles.
- Spread and stack.

Not rocket science, just common sense.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Here's a question... what happens when after beating your Dungeon Trial those same people go back to doing whatever they want?

It amazes me that people think all those "awful" PUG players are just bad at games. If they wanted to be serious about it, they'd queue with guildmates and come prepared with knowledge of the boss mechanics. Many of them are doing what they're doing because they don't want to be serious about it. The guy spamming Snipe? I'm sure he's been told a thousand times how bad it is at DPS. He's probably doing it out of laziness because he doesn't want to dodge roll spam like it's a veteran trial. He's using a bow for god's sake, clearly he's not getting anywhere near the death makers.

Those guys spamming light attacks are playing the game the way they like it and using their powers to stay alive or do the occasional big CC hit. Because that's basically what you do in Skyrim or any other Elder Scrolls game. It's a natural thing for them to come over and immediately play that way. Could they do better by skill spamming? Probably. But that means running out of juice and having to do heavy attack rotations which they can't be bothered to do. They just want to light attack spam while using their energy for buffs and heals.

I don't think forcing them through a meat grinder will make them stop being lazy after it's over. Instead, perhaps ZOS should throw out some more sets that encourage their playstyle, obviously with less dps, and more easily accessible. Then they could pick up the Armor of the Lazy *** that buffs Light Attacks by 50% and reduces the cost of self-buffs and it wouldn't be completely terrible to be grouped with them.

You can't force other players to play the way you find to be optimal. They're always going to play the way they want to especially when it's the bloody slogan ZOS was pushing for ESO. All we can really do is help them out along the way, make overpowered characters that can pick up the slack, groan less when it takes longer to clear a dungeon, and pray ZOS gives them a set that suits their playstyle that isn't completely awful. Dungeons are content and there's truly no rush to clear them unless you're farming and for that you should get a farming group. Instant gratification pushes people to want clears and completions and immediate full sets of the gear and traits they want but the game can just as easily be played casually. Expect that every time you queue other people won't necessarily play the way you want to play. Even if we solved this problem, people would just move on to complaining about some other stereotype.

You play what you want and how you want in your time, when you play solo or single game, if you're playing group content, and purposesfully not doing what your role demand, or purposfully underperform because you want to chill, you're an ***.

Dungeons have mechanics. The guy spamming snipe from max range doesn't know that the boss will charge the farthest player with a one-shot attack ? Tell that to lowbies trying to clear Tempest Island, I'm sure they'll understand. Or the tank waiting for you to light attack your way through Gamyne Bandu's shadow before getting spiked... wow, such fun!

There's a difference between going with the FotM build(TM) and doing enough in your role of choice to be useful in a group situation. You're not grouping with NPC, there are 3 other people that would really like to complete the content they signed up for. That's not called chilling, that's called being selfish.

Just saying.

Glurin

Aisle9 wrote: »

The Secret World had 3 difficulty for dungeons, normal, elite and nightmare. Normal difficulty were available right away, elite were unlocked once you reached a certain rank in your faction (a fairly low one), but the nightmare difficulty required you to complete a challenge:

If you chose the dps challenge the fight you would face a stationary boss in 3 phases. Phase 1 is a dps race, a certain amount of damage was needed in a certain amount of time, if it fails you get killed by an attack called "Too slow", meanwhile you have to avoid telegraphs. Phase 2 required you to purge the boss when a certain tell was shown, while a you keep doing damage, if you miss the tell, you get killed by "Too slow". Phase 3 an add spawn and you have to kite while doing damage, if the add catches you it kills you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcBzqZV72TM&t=21s

I think I should stress the point here that the DPS race for that test was fairly low and easy to achieve with entry level gear, but also high enough that spamming a single attack wasn't going to cut it. The test wasn't to make sure you could keep up with the latest meta build DPS parses. It was intended to teach you the very basic mechanics of doing damage beyond holding down a single attack button.

Aurielle

idk wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

idk wrote: »

We already have training dungeons. It is the normal dungeons.

Yes, and new players often have NO IDEA what they're doing in these dungeons, or how to fulfill the role they signed up for. A pre-requisite training mode dungeon would teach them the basics, an absolute bare minimum from which they can grow. Some damage dealers literally think that damage dealing means light bow attacking until they've charged up their bow ultimate.

What I think you should be able to do and what you think you should be able to do is probably not the same. Should we have a boss fight in this dungeon without adds and require dps to pull a low 30k minimum dps to be able to dps in the other dungeons. Maybe 20k for normal and 30k for vet level.

As I mentioned in my OP, I wouldn't want to see a hard DPS gate. It's too restrictive. The soft gate of a timer gives more than enough leeway for someone to do mediocre DPS, but not horrendous DPS. Light attacking one's way through the training session would not be enough.

As for healer, in most dungeons if someone dies it is more likely than not their fault. Most of the time I heal I also deal dps because there is not much healing unless the group is less skilled. Even then some die, they stand in stupid, miss a mechanic or something like that.

For the purposes of a training mode dungeon, we can assume that NPC allies know not to stand in stupid. The healer's role in the training dungeon -- as in any dungeon -- would be to ensure that, at a bare minimum, they're throwing down enough HoTs to keep their allies alive. More experienced healers could focus more so on keeping their buffs/debuffs up (which would be indicated at the end in the recap), while seeing what kind of DPS and HPS they can pull.

Not going to even get into the tank role. So many dungeons really do not require a tank.

Yeah, but if you're going to queue as a tank, you should at LEAST be able to aggro the boss and stay alive in case you're playing with squishy DPS and a mediocre healer, right? Again, we're looking at BARE MINIMUMS here. There are people who queue as a tank who have no idea what a taunt is, much less when they need to use it.

So in the end, it is not happening. No one will be able to agree on what should be required nor how to go about it.

If you do not like the groups you get in GF just form your own group. If you are in a decent guild it is pretty simple. Heck, form it from zone if the guild route is to much trouble.

That's fair enough, but I personally live in an odd time zone. I also do shift work, so it's not always possible to group with guild mates. I'd rather try to suggest something proactive that will actually help players get better at their roles, than abandon the dungeon finder entirely.

I must thank you for proving my point in a very clear manner. That getting agreement is very unlikely. Heck, the lack of interest in this thread says enough about agreement with this idea.

However, one of your points made here is counter to what you stated in your OP. You provided an example of a firm DPS gate in your OP but not state you would not want such a thing which is very counter to a dps proving anything.

I would suggest you find a guild that has people playing during the time you play. Clearly you find players playing at the same time and I bet some of them are in guilds. There are guilds that have people from different time zone. Find one. Life will be much better.

I'm not sure your point is valid, though -- we don't need 100% player agreement on what's "required" for a feature like this in order for ZOS to implement a basic training dungeon. The issue we mainly see when running dungeons with the activity finder is that people (especially brand new players, established players who are new to dungeons, and Skyreach carries) do not understand how to fulfill the basic expectations of their role (e.g. taunting boss, healing allies, doing more than simply spamming light attacks), and are often openly hostile or dismissive when experienced players give suggestions. The idea here is to help these people get a leg up and start learning how to do these things before they're grouped up with more experienced players. A training dungeon wouldn't immediately turn noobs into pros -- it would help them learn the basics of dungeon running in a setting where other people aren't reliant upon them. It helps them, and it reduces frustration for players who know what they're doing. Win-win for all.

Also, a timer is more of a soft DPS gate than a hard DPS gate. The values I suggested would have to be adjusted to account for number of trash mobs, boss health, and so on, and would also have to allow for mistakes/lack of rotations. I would never expect a dungeon noob who doesn't even have CP yet to pull an average of 20k DPS; it would be completely unrealistic. The hard gate for damage dealers in the system I've described is the number of skills used to complete the training session, which I think is perfectly reasonable. The purpose of that hard gate is to demonstrate to people that you can't fulfill your damage dealing role simply by spamming light or heavy attacks.

Regarding your last suggestion, the activity finder exists for a reason. When I'm running dungeons on my healer, it is MUCH faster to queue solo through the activity finder, which takes an average of 5-15 seconds to pop. When I ask in guild chat, it usually takes more than 10 minutes to get something organized. You have to wait for people to finish up whatever they're doing, to put the kids to bed, to log over to their DPS, etc. etc. Like I said before, I'd rather try to suggest something proactive that will help the player base, than abandon the activity finder completely. The activity finder works really well when people have, at the very least, a basic understanding of what's expected of them. The game currently does not make it clear what's expected of them; a pre-requisite training dungeon would solve that problem.

Thorgar

Aurielle wrote: »

As we all know, using the dungeon finder is often a frustrating experience. If you're on your tank or healer, you often find yourself grouped with "damage" dealers who spam light/heavy attacks or (my all-time favourite!) Snipe. When you're on your damage dealers, you often find yourself grouped with bad tanks who don't taunt, or bad healers who don't heal (or frantically spam BoL until they're out of magicka). While there is simply no helping some people, and while some people obviously queue for roles they have no intention of completing, it has often been argued that the game does not do an adequate job of preparing players for dungeon content. I agree with that argument.

What if we had a scalable training dungeon (normal and vet mode) that all players need to complete at least once before being able to queue for a particular role or dungeon difficulty? Said training dungeon would pair you up with three NPC allies, would be capped at a 5-10 minute completion time (depending on difficulty), and would mimick the first part of a standard dungeon run (i.e. a few trash mob pulls, followed by a boss with standard mechanics -- AOE attacks, knock-back/stun attacks, healing adds, etc.).

After the training dungeon is complete, you would get an in-depth recap with a score that would provide you with the sort of details you might see on a combat analysis add-on, relevant to your role (e.g. total DPS, total HPS, number of allies defeated, number of personal deaths, boss taunt up-time, buff/de-buff up-time, etc.) The recap screen would also provide hints (which could be disabled through the UI, if you're an established player) to improve your performance. Something like "use a light attack before activating a skill to increase your damage" or "hold block when your target prepares to unleash a heavy attack, as indicated by white lines radiating from the target" or "use area-of-effect skills to take out large groups of enemies faster" or whatever.

Successful completion of the training dungeon could be dependent upon the following role-dependent parameters:

Damage Dealers

- Use of AT LEAST three or more skills (light-attacking/heavy-attacking/single skill spam disqualifies you)
- Dealing enough damage to kill the boss before the 5-10 minute timer is up

Tanks

- Taunting the boss AT LEAST once (with a better score granted for 100% taunt up-time)

Healers

- Keeping all NPC allies alive (maximum of 1-2 deaths permitted)

Please note that I am NOT suggesting a specific DPS minimum in the completion parameters, as I realize that new players should not be expected to crack a DPS minimum before they can run a dungeon. Also, the dungeon completion timer would be a very soft DPS check. The most important thing, in my mind, is to encourage new damage dealers to combine skills, rather than spam light/heavy attacks. The number of new dungeon runners who think ESO is Skyrim is simply unreal.

Also, such a system could obviously also be used by established players to improve their rotations and overall performance, or to test out new builds. Think of it as a very sophisticated target dummy. Healers have also been requesting HPS dummies for some time now, and have been shut down by those of us who (rightly) point out that there's much more to healing than HPS. This training mode would let a healer know, for instance, how often they have their SPC buff up; it would also let them know how much additional damage they can provide to help out the team in addition to their HPS.

Thoughts? I know there have been similar suggestions in the past, but I figured I'd put this out there -- especially given all the requests lately for healing target dummies, and my ongoing frustration with people who don't know how to deal damage.

Not a bad idea,i remember ff14 having something similar where you go and train how to play your role.Cant remember what its called though.

Aurielle

Aisle9 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

We already have training dungeons. It is the normal dungeons.

As for having an arbitrary goal someone has to do the question is who sets that goal? The ones listed I expect are not really intended.

What I think you should be able to do and what you think you should be able to do is probably not the same. Should we have a boss fight in this dungeon without adds and require dps to pull a low 30k minimum dps to be able to dps in the other dungeons. Maybe 20k for normal and 30k for vet level.

As for healer, in most dungeons if someone dies it is more likely than not their fault. Most of the time I heal I also deal dps because there is not much healing unless the group is less skilled. Even then some die, they stand in stupid, miss a mechanic or something like that.

Not going to even get into the tank role. So many dungeons really do not require a tank.

So in the end, it is not happening. No one will be able to agree on what should be required nor how to go about it.

If you do not like the groups you get in GF just form your own group. If you are in a decent guild it is pretty simple. Heck, form it from zone if the guild route is to much trouble.

DPS races are part of certain mechanics of certain bosses, so, yes, in some cases you should be able to do enough damage to pass the dps race.

Blocking or dodging a certain projectile or attack is also part of certain boss mechanics (most last bosses in vanilla dungeons have a mechanic that targets a random group member and it's not interruptible or avoidable).

Bashing or otherwise interrupting a mechanic that disable the tank is also a mechanic in most dungeons.

Purging a negative effect that would result in a one-shot mechanic, killing an add that shields or buff a boss, I could go on.

Most dungeons, even if we're just considering the vanilla dungeons, have a certain number of mechanics, so knowing how to deal with said mechanics (bashing, blocking, deal enough damage, purging), so to answer your question, the game sets those goals, when it requires players to execute them to complete a dungeon.

How to go about it, really easy, let me illustrate.

The Secret World had 3 difficulty for dungeons, normal, elite and nightmare. Normal difficulty were available right away, elite were unlocked once you reached a certain rank in your faction (a fairly low one), but the nightmare difficulty required you to complete a challenge:

If you chose the dps challenge the fight you would face a stationary boss in 3 phases. Phase 1 is a dps race, a certain amount of damage was needed in a certain amount of time, if it fails you get killed by an attack called "Too slow", meanwhile you have to avoid telegraphs. Phase 2 required you to purge the boss when a certain tell was shown, while a you keep doing damage, if you miss the tell, you get killed by "Too slow". Phase 3 an add spawn and you have to kite while doing damage, if the add catches you it kills you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcBzqZV72TM&t=21s


Similarly, the tank challenge requires you to hold aggro while an add does damage, to interrupt a mechanic and to avoid telegraphs.

I've never done the healer challenge, but I've been told it's about healing an add and using a clense.

This was specifically made to teach players about mechanics in nightmare dungeons (dps race, purge, adds), which was not part of the regular tutorial training.

The point is, they're not arbitrary if the game requires them. They are very specific.

If you don't do enough damage in an X amount of time there's a one-shot mechanic. If you don't bash the tank will die. If you don't purge the dot will increase the damage every second till it's more than your health. If you don't spread or move out of a certain area, you will die.

What is required is a number of mechanics required to complete the dungeon:
- DPS race.
- Interrupts.
- Avoid telegraphs.
- Dodge or block projectiles.
- Spread and stack.

Not rocket science, just common sense.

LordSemaj wrote: »

Here's a question... what happens when after beating your Dungeon Trial those same people go back to doing whatever they want?

It amazes me that people think all those "awful" PUG players are just bad at games. If they wanted to be serious about it, they'd queue with guildmates and come prepared with knowledge of the boss mechanics. Many of them are doing what they're doing because they don't want to be serious about it. The guy spamming Snipe? I'm sure he's been told a thousand times how bad it is at DPS. He's probably doing it out of laziness because he doesn't want to dodge roll spam like it's a veteran trial. He's using a bow for god's sake, clearly he's not getting anywhere near the death makers.

Those guys spamming light attacks are playing the game the way they like it and using their powers to stay alive or do the occasional big CC hit. Because that's basically what you do in Skyrim or any other Elder Scrolls game. It's a natural thing for them to come over and immediately play that way. Could they do better by skill spamming? Probably. But that means running out of juice and having to do heavy attack rotations which they can't be bothered to do. They just want to light attack spam while using their energy for buffs and heals.

I don't think forcing them through a meat grinder will make them stop being lazy after it's over. Instead, perhaps ZOS should throw out some more sets that encourage their playstyle, obviously with less dps, and more easily accessible. Then they could pick up the Armor of the Lazy *** that buffs Light Attacks by 50% and reduces the cost of self-buffs and it wouldn't be completely terrible to be grouped with them.

You can't force other players to play the way you find to be optimal. They're always going to play the way they want to especially when it's the bloody slogan ZOS was pushing for ESO. All we can really do is help them out along the way, make overpowered characters that can pick up the slack, groan less when it takes longer to clear a dungeon, and pray ZOS gives them a set that suits their playstyle that isn't completely awful. Dungeons are content and there's truly no rush to clear them unless you're farming and for that you should get a farming group. Instant gratification pushes people to want clears and completions and immediate full sets of the gear and traits they want but the game can just as easily be played casually. Expect that every time you queue other people won't necessarily play the way you want to play. Even if we solved this problem, people would just move on to complaining about some other stereotype.

You play what you want and how you want in your time, when you play solo or single game, if you're playing group content, and purposesfully not doing what your role demand, or purposfully underperform because you want to chill, you're an ***.

Dungeons have mechanics. The guy spamming snipe from max range doesn't know that the boss will charge the farthest player with a one-shot attack ? Tell that to lowbies trying to clear Tempest Island, I'm sure they'll understand. Or the tank waiting for you to light attack your way through Gamyne Bandu's shadow before getting spiked... wow, such fun!

There's a difference between going with the FotM build(TM) and doing enough in your role of choice to be useful in a group situation. You're not grouping with NPC, there are 3 other people that would really like to complete the content they signed up for. That's not called chilling, that's called being selfish.

Just saying.

100% agreed with everything you've said here, and great example/precedent, re: TSW3. People who don't like this idea seem to think that the purpose of it is to turn new players into pros; it isn't. ESO does not adequately prepare players for dungeons. Overland content is so easy that, yeah, you can get by just fine through light attacks, or not taunting, or not healing. Dungeons are painful when the people you're running with don't understand the bare minimum of what's expected of them. A system like this would at least establish that bare minimum.

Also, the other utility of a training dungeon with in-depth combat analysis is to hone your own build if you're an established player, or to test out a new build in a semi-live environment without the risk of letting other players down. As a healer, I would LOVE to have a system that would allow me to see how often I was buffing my allies, and how much additional DPS I brought to the fight. We don't have anything like that on console.

Prof_Bawbag

Aurielle wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

As we all know, using the dungeon finder is often a frustrating experience. If you're on your tank or healer, you often find yourself grouped with "damage" dealers who spam light/heavy attacks or (my all-time favourite!) Snipe. When you're on your damage dealers, you often find yourself grouped with bad tanks who don't taunt, or bad healers who don't heal (or frantically spam BoL until they're out of magicka). While there is simply no helping some people, and while some people obviously queue for roles they have no intention of completing, it has often been argued that the game does not do an adequate job of preparing players for dungeon content. I agree with that argument.

What if we had a scalable training dungeon (normal and vet mode) that all players need to complete at least once before being able to queue for a particular role or dungeon difficulty? Said training dungeon would pair you up with three NPC allies, would be capped at a 5-10 minute completion time (depending on difficulty), and would mimick the first part of a standard dungeon run (i.e. a few trash mob pulls, followed by a boss with standard mechanics -- AOE attacks, knock-back/stun attacks, healing adds, etc.).

After the training dungeon is complete, you would get an in-depth recap with a score that would provide you with the sort of details you might see on a combat analysis add-on, relevant to your role (e.g. total DPS, total HPS, number of allies defeated, number of personal deaths, boss taunt up-time, buff/de-buff up-time, etc.) The recap screen would also provide hints (which could be disabled through the UI, if you're an established player) to improve your performance. Something like "use a light attack before activating a skill to increase your damage" or "hold block when your target prepares to unleash a heavy attack, as indicated by white lines radiating from the target" or "use area-of-effect skills to take out large groups of enemies faster" or whatever.

Successful completion of the training dungeon could be dependent upon the following role-dependent parameters:

Damage Dealers

- Use of AT LEAST three or more skills (light-attacking/heavy-attacking/single skill spam disqualifies you)
- Dealing enough damage to kill the boss before the 5-10 minute timer is up

Tanks

- Taunting the boss AT LEAST once (with a better score granted for 100% taunt up-time)

Healers

- Keeping all NPC allies alive (maximum of 1-2 deaths permitted)

Please not that I am NOT suggesting a specific DPS minimum in the completion parameters, as I realize that new players should not be expected to crack a DPS minimum before they can run a dungeon. Also, the dungeon completion timer would be a very soft DPS check. The most important thing, in my mind, is to encourage new damage dealers to combine skills, rather than spam light/heavy attacks. The number of new dungeon runners who think ESO is Skyrim is simply unreal.

Also, such a system could obviously also be used by established players to improve their rotations and overall performance, or to test out new builds. Think of it as a very sophisticated target dummy. Healers have also been requesting HPS dummies for some time now, and have been shut down by those of us who (rightly) point out that there's much more to healing than HPS. This training mode would let a healer know, for instance, how often they have their SPC buff up; it would also let them know how much additional damage they can provide to help out the team in addition to their HPS.

Thoughts? I know there have been similar suggestions in the past, but I figured I'd put this out there -- especially given all the requests lately for healing target dummies, and my ongoing frustration with people who don't know how to deal damage.

Yup. I support this kind of thing.

That's a really neat idea, and I especially like the idea of having your NPC allies be members of the Undaunted -- gives it a lore-based bit of backstory.

teladoy wrote: »

I want to believe that the humans that play this game have the minimum level of intelligence and learning capacity to understand to play rightly after a few try's. Otherwise we are destinated to extinction without doubt.

You don't play a healer or a tank, do you? I can't even begin to tell you the number of frustrating random normals I've run for the daily XP bonus as a healer in this game. Also, I can tell you right now that if I'd never visited these forums or looked at build sites, I'd probably still be dishing out 9k DPS maximum on my DDs. Not everyone visits the forums or knows where to find effective build/rotation ideas. A system like this would at least get them started and introduce them to the idea that you can't deal damage effectively if you play ESO like it's a standard single player Elder Scrolls game.

No idea, if it was implemented, how it would work. The game doesn't know which skills follow on from the last and which skills are just down right ineffective at any given time. Logic tells me the game thinks all skills are even and all skills are as viable as the next.

There is absolutely no way you could replicate most of the information you gather from forums or build sites in any meaningful way in-game. What next, the game is suddenly gonna know which sets are good and which are *** during any given update? Again, the game will think all sets are equal within their respective type. I think you're being overly optimistic and unrealistic by expecting anything of the sort.

I also think you're being overly critical. If you're rolling your eyes during a normal non dlc pledge, then the issue lies with you, not with the people you're running with. Almost all norm dungeons are soloable and as such, having others is just a bonus which helps shaves time of the pledge. If little Timmy dies repeatedly in CoA1 norm, then it really is no biggie. Let him chew through gems.

Aurielle

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

As we all know, using the dungeon finder is often a frustrating experience. If you're on your tank or healer, you often find yourself grouped with "damage" dealers who spam light/heavy attacks or (my all-time favourite!) Snipe. When you're on your damage dealers, you often find yourself grouped with bad tanks who don't taunt, or bad healers who don't heal (or frantically spam BoL until they're out of magicka). While there is simply no helping some people, and while some people obviously queue for roles they have no intention of completing, it has often been argued that the game does not do an adequate job of preparing players for dungeon content. I agree with that argument.

What if we had a scalable training dungeon (normal and vet mode) that all players need to complete at least once before being able to queue for a particular role or dungeon difficulty? Said training dungeon would pair you up with three NPC allies, would be capped at a 5-10 minute completion time (depending on difficulty), and would mimick the first part of a standard dungeon run (i.e. a few trash mob pulls, followed by a boss with standard mechanics -- AOE attacks, knock-back/stun attacks, healing adds, etc.).

After the training dungeon is complete, you would get an in-depth recap with a score that would provide you with the sort of details you might see on a combat analysis add-on, relevant to your role (e.g. total DPS, total HPS, number of allies defeated, number of personal deaths, boss taunt up-time, buff/de-buff up-time, etc.) The recap screen would also provide hints (which could be disabled through the UI, if you're an established player) to improve your performance. Something like "use a light attack before activating a skill to increase your damage" or "hold block when your target prepares to unleash a heavy attack, as indicated by white lines radiating from the target" or "use area-of-effect skills to take out large groups of enemies faster" or whatever.

Successful completion of the training dungeon could be dependent upon the following role-dependent parameters:

Damage Dealers

- Use of AT LEAST three or more skills (light-attacking/heavy-attacking/single skill spam disqualifies you)
- Dealing enough damage to kill the boss before the 5-10 minute timer is up

Tanks

- Taunting the boss AT LEAST once (with a better score granted for 100% taunt up-time)

Healers

- Keeping all NPC allies alive (maximum of 1-2 deaths permitted)

Please not that I am NOT suggesting a specific DPS minimum in the completion parameters, as I realize that new players should not be expected to crack a DPS minimum before they can run a dungeon. Also, the dungeon completion timer would be a very soft DPS check. The most important thing, in my mind, is to encourage new damage dealers to combine skills, rather than spam light/heavy attacks. The number of new dungeon runners who think ESO is Skyrim is simply unreal.

Also, such a system could obviously also be used by established players to improve their rotations and overall performance, or to test out new builds. Think of it as a very sophisticated target dummy. Healers have also been requesting HPS dummies for some time now, and have been shut down by those of us who (rightly) point out that there's much more to healing than HPS. This training mode would let a healer know, for instance, how often they have their SPC buff up; it would also let them know how much additional damage they can provide to help out the team in addition to their HPS.

Thoughts? I know there have been similar suggestions in the past, but I figured I'd put this out there -- especially given all the requests lately for healing target dummies, and my ongoing frustration with people who don't know how to deal damage.

Yup. I support this kind of thing.

That's a really neat idea, and I especially like the idea of having your NPC allies be members of the Undaunted -- gives it a lore-based bit of backstory.

teladoy wrote: »

I want to believe that the humans that play this game have the minimum level of intelligence and learning capacity to understand to play rightly after a few try's. Otherwise we are destinated to extinction without doubt.

You don't play a healer or a tank, do you? I can't even begin to tell you the number of frustrating random normals I've run for the daily XP bonus as a healer in this game. Also, I can tell you right now that if I'd never visited these forums or looked at build sites, I'd probably still be dishing out 9k DPS maximum on my DDs. Not everyone visits the forums or knows where to find effective build/rotation ideas. A system like this would at least get them started and introduce them to the idea that you can't deal damage effectively if you play ESO like it's a standard single player Elder Scrolls game.

No idea how, if it was the implemented, it would work. The game doesn't know which skills follow on from the last and which skills are just down right ineffective at any given time. Logic tells me the game thinks all skills are even and all skills are as viable as the next.

There is absolutely no way you could replicate most of the information you gather from forums or build sites in any meaningful way in-game. What next, the game is suddenly gonna know which sets are good and which are *** during any given update? Again, the game will think all sets are even within their respective type. I think you're being overly optimistic and unrealistic by expecting anything of the sort.

The API currently makes it possible to determine what skills were used for a certain amount of time; if it didn't, the above image could not exist. There are people who run dungeons who literally do this: light attack, light attack, light attack, light attack [FIFTEEN MINUTES LATER] light attack, light attack. In the system I've imagined, if they don't use AT LEAST three skills to deal damage in addition to light and heavy attacks, they fail the training session. The idea is to discourage light/heavy attack spam, or single skill spam.

Also, when did I say I would want a training dungeon that could tell players what set they should use? Again, this is about teaching players the bare minimum to start learning their roles (and also to give experienced players a place to test out new builds or simply improve). I'm really tired of hearing the "thwock, thwock, thwock" of Snipe, y'know?

Prof_Bawbag

Aurielle wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

As we all know, using the dungeon finder is often a frustrating experience. If you're on your tank or healer, you often find yourself grouped with "damage" dealers who spam light/heavy attacks or (my all-time favourite!) Snipe. When you're on your damage dealers, you often find yourself grouped with bad tanks who don't taunt, or bad healers who don't heal (or frantically spam BoL until they're out of magicka). While there is simply no helping some people, and while some people obviously queue for roles they have no intention of completing, it has often been argued that the game does not do an adequate job of preparing players for dungeon content. I agree with that argument.

What if we had a scalable training dungeon (normal and vet mode) that all players need to complete at least once before being able to queue for a particular role or dungeon difficulty? Said training dungeon would pair you up with three NPC allies, would be capped at a 5-10 minute completion time (depending on difficulty), and would mimick the first part of a standard dungeon run (i.e. a few trash mob pulls, followed by a boss with standard mechanics -- AOE attacks, knock-back/stun attacks, healing adds, etc.).

After the training dungeon is complete, you would get an in-depth recap with a score that would provide you with the sort of details you might see on a combat analysis add-on, relevant to your role (e.g. total DPS, total HPS, number of allies defeated, number of personal deaths, boss taunt up-time, buff/de-buff up-time, etc.) The recap screen would also provide hints (which could be disabled through the UI, if you're an established player) to improve your performance. Something like "use a light attack before activating a skill to increase your damage" or "hold block when your target prepares to unleash a heavy attack, as indicated by white lines radiating from the target" or "use area-of-effect skills to take out large groups of enemies faster" or whatever.

Successful completion of the training dungeon could be dependent upon the following role-dependent parameters:

Damage Dealers

- Use of AT LEAST three or more skills (light-attacking/heavy-attacking/single skill spam disqualifies you)
- Dealing enough damage to kill the boss before the 5-10 minute timer is up

Tanks

- Taunting the boss AT LEAST once (with a better score granted for 100% taunt up-time)

Healers

- Keeping all NPC allies alive (maximum of 1-2 deaths permitted)

Please not that I am NOT suggesting a specific DPS minimum in the completion parameters, as I realize that new players should not be expected to crack a DPS minimum before they can run a dungeon. Also, the dungeon completion timer would be a very soft DPS check. The most important thing, in my mind, is to encourage new damage dealers to combine skills, rather than spam light/heavy attacks. The number of new dungeon runners who think ESO is Skyrim is simply unreal.

Also, such a system could obviously also be used by established players to improve their rotations and overall performance, or to test out new builds. Think of it as a very sophisticated target dummy. Healers have also been requesting HPS dummies for some time now, and have been shut down by those of us who (rightly) point out that there's much more to healing than HPS. This training mode would let a healer know, for instance, how often they have their SPC buff up; it would also let them know how much additional damage they can provide to help out the team in addition to their HPS.

Thoughts? I know there have been similar suggestions in the past, but I figured I'd put this out there -- especially given all the requests lately for healing target dummies, and my ongoing frustration with people who don't know how to deal damage.

Yup. I support this kind of thing.

That's a really neat idea, and I especially like the idea of having your NPC allies be members of the Undaunted -- gives it a lore-based bit of backstory.

teladoy wrote: »

I want to believe that the humans that play this game have the minimum level of intelligence and learning capacity to understand to play rightly after a few try's. Otherwise we are destinated to extinction without doubt.

You don't play a healer or a tank, do you? I can't even begin to tell you the number of frustrating random normals I've run for the daily XP bonus as a healer in this game. Also, I can tell you right now that if I'd never visited these forums or looked at build sites, I'd probably still be dishing out 9k DPS maximum on my DDs. Not everyone visits the forums or knows where to find effective build/rotation ideas. A system like this would at least get them started and introduce them to the idea that you can't deal damage effectively if you play ESO like it's a standard single player Elder Scrolls game.

No idea how, if it was the implemented, it would work. The game doesn't know which skills follow on from the last and which skills are just down right ineffective at any given time. Logic tells me the game thinks all skills are even and all skills are as viable as the next.

There is absolutely no way you could replicate most of the information you gather from forums or build sites in any meaningful way in-game. What next, the game is suddenly gonna know which sets are good and which are *** during any given update? Again, the game will think all sets are even within their respective type. I think you're being overly optimistic and unrealistic by expecting anything of the sort.

The API currently makes it possible to determine what skills were used for a certain amount of time; if it didn't, the above image could not exist. There are people who run dungeons who literally do this: light attack, light attack, light attack, light attack [FIFTEEN MINUTES LATER] light attack, light attack. In the system I've imagined, if they don't use AT LEAST three skills to deal damage in addition to light and heavy attacks, they fail the training session. The idea is to discourage light/heavy attack spam, or single skill spam.

Also, when did I say I would want a training dungeon that could tell players what set they should use? Again, this is about teaching players the bare minimum to start learning their roles (and also to give experienced players a place to test out new builds or simply improve). I'm really tired of hearing the "thwock, thwock, thwock" of Snipe, y'know?

That information is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The game still thinks every skill is as good as the next within their respective categories. Otherwise they wouldn't be there as an option. As for the gear, the gear ties in with particular roles whether it helps with tanking, healing or dps. Gear is needed to increase the effectiveness of whichever role your playing. So it's all interlinked and why I mentioned it.

Prof_Bawbag

Don't play with randoms and if you're struggling to make headway in normal non dlc dungeons because of the people around you, and like i edited in my previous post, you're also part of the problem if the dungeon becomes a ballache. I'm far from the best player in-game, in fact, quite the opposite, yet I can say i have never ever had an issue any any non dlc 'normal mode' dungeon if those around me are falling like flies or spamming light attacks. as long as they're there for the 2-man mechanics, then everything is rosy.

Niobium

Aisle9 wrote: »

The Secret World had 3 difficulty for dungeons, normal, elite and nightmare. Normal difficulty were available right away, elite were unlocked once you reached a certain rank in your faction (a fairly low one), but the nightmare difficulty required you to complete a challenge

The problem there was, everyone knew the heal challenge was the easiest, so everyone took the heal challenge, and then were still complete failures at either tanking or dps and half the time even healing as well.

Point is, they cheated the system.

Same would go for anything implemented here too if folks were required to pass X in order to go to Y.

If people want to learn, they will. If they don't want to learn, they won't.

No system will ever ensure people who don't want to learn, will learn.

Aurielle

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

As we all know, using the dungeon finder is often a frustrating experience. If you're on your tank or healer, you often find yourself grouped with "damage" dealers who spam light/heavy attacks or (my all-time favourite!) Snipe. When you're on your damage dealers, you often find yourself grouped with bad tanks who don't taunt, or bad healers who don't heal (or frantically spam BoL until they're out of magicka). While there is simply no helping some people, and while some people obviously queue for roles they have no intention of completing, it has often been argued that the game does not do an adequate job of preparing players for dungeon content. I agree with that argument.

What if we had a scalable training dungeon (normal and vet mode) that all players need to complete at least once before being able to queue for a particular role or dungeon difficulty? Said training dungeon would pair you up with three NPC allies, would be capped at a 5-10 minute completion time (depending on difficulty), and would mimick the first part of a standard dungeon run (i.e. a few trash mob pulls, followed by a boss with standard mechanics -- AOE attacks, knock-back/stun attacks, healing adds, etc.).

After the training dungeon is complete, you would get an in-depth recap with a score that would provide you with the sort of details you might see on a combat analysis add-on, relevant to your role (e.g. total DPS, total HPS, number of allies defeated, number of personal deaths, boss taunt up-time, buff/de-buff up-time, etc.) The recap screen would also provide hints (which could be disabled through the UI, if you're an established player) to improve your performance. Something like "use a light attack before activating a skill to increase your damage" or "hold block when your target prepares to unleash a heavy attack, as indicated by white lines radiating from the target" or "use area-of-effect skills to take out large groups of enemies faster" or whatever.

Successful completion of the training dungeon could be dependent upon the following role-dependent parameters:

Damage Dealers

- Use of AT LEAST three or more skills (light-attacking/heavy-attacking/single skill spam disqualifies you)
- Dealing enough damage to kill the boss before the 5-10 minute timer is up

Tanks

- Taunting the boss AT LEAST once (with a better score granted for 100% taunt up-time)

Healers

- Keeping all NPC allies alive (maximum of 1-2 deaths permitted)

Please not that I am NOT suggesting a specific DPS minimum in the completion parameters, as I realize that new players should not be expected to crack a DPS minimum before they can run a dungeon. Also, the dungeon completion timer would be a very soft DPS check. The most important thing, in my mind, is to encourage new damage dealers to combine skills, rather than spam light/heavy attacks. The number of new dungeon runners who think ESO is Skyrim is simply unreal.

Also, such a system could obviously also be used by established players to improve their rotations and overall performance, or to test out new builds. Think of it as a very sophisticated target dummy. Healers have also been requesting HPS dummies for some time now, and have been shut down by those of us who (rightly) point out that there's much more to healing than HPS. This training mode would let a healer know, for instance, how often they have their SPC buff up; it would also let them know how much additional damage they can provide to help out the team in addition to their HPS.

Thoughts? I know there have been similar suggestions in the past, but I figured I'd put this out there -- especially given all the requests lately for healing target dummies, and my ongoing frustration with people who don't know how to deal damage.

Yup. I support this kind of thing.

That's a really neat idea, and I especially like the idea of having your NPC allies be members of the Undaunted -- gives it a lore-based bit of backstory.

teladoy wrote: »

I want to believe that the humans that play this game have the minimum level of intelligence and learning capacity to understand to play rightly after a few try's. Otherwise we are destinated to extinction without doubt.

You don't play a healer or a tank, do you? I can't even begin to tell you the number of frustrating random normals I've run for the daily XP bonus as a healer in this game. Also, I can tell you right now that if I'd never visited these forums or looked at build sites, I'd probably still be dishing out 9k DPS maximum on my DDs. Not everyone visits the forums or knows where to find effective build/rotation ideas. A system like this would at least get them started and introduce them to the idea that you can't deal damage effectively if you play ESO like it's a standard single player Elder Scrolls game.

No idea how, if it was the implemented, it would work. The game doesn't know which skills follow on from the last and which skills are just down right ineffective at any given time. Logic tells me the game thinks all skills are even and all skills are as viable as the next.

There is absolutely no way you could replicate most of the information you gather from forums or build sites in any meaningful way in-game. What next, the game is suddenly gonna know which sets are good and which are *** during any given update? Again, the game will think all sets are even within their respective type. I think you're being overly optimistic and unrealistic by expecting anything of the sort.

The API currently makes it possible to determine what skills were used for a certain amount of time; if it didn't, the above image could not exist. There are people who run dungeons who literally do this: light attack, light attack, light attack, light attack [FIFTEEN MINUTES LATER] light attack, light attack. In the system I've imagined, if they don't use AT LEAST three skills to deal damage in addition to light and heavy attacks, they fail the training session. The idea is to discourage light/heavy attack spam, or single skill spam.

Also, when did I say I would want a training dungeon that could tell players what set they should use? Again, this is about teaching players the bare minimum to start learning their roles (and also to give experienced players a place to test out new builds or simply improve). I'm really tired of hearing the "thwock, thwock, thwock" of Snipe, y'know?

That information is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The game still thinks every skill is as good as the next within their respective categories. Otherwise they wouldn't be there as an option. As for the gear, the gear ties in with particular roles whether it helps with tanking, healing or dps. Gear is needed to increase the effectiveness of whichever role your playing. So it's all interlinked and why I mentioned it.

Again, the idea here isn't to turn people into pros: it's to establish some very basic expectations (and also to give established players an advanced training dummy option). The game currently does not provide any of that, and I see the consequences of the former every day. People would still have to turn to the forums and whatnot if they want more in-depth information about builds, strategies, and rotations.

And yeah, it's easy to solo random normals quickly when you're on your DPS. It's not as blisteringly fast on my healer, though, because my healer is optimized for healing and off-DPS. I slot additional DPS skills when I do normals, but I'm obviously not hitting the numbers I hit on my full DPS magsorc or stamDK. And don't even get me started on tanking... I tried learning how to tank in normals, and just had to stop because of the high preponderance of light attack spammers. Going to have to learn how to tank with guild mates, if I decide to go down that road again. Normals aren't the only problem, either... People queue as damage dealers in vet dungeons and light attack spam there too. I just drop group in those situations, but then I'm stuck with the queue penalty. I'd rather see something implemented that would help those people learn the basics, because they clearly need something like that.

VaranisArano

A word of advice from someone who mains a tank.

If you want newbies to understand that they need to slot a taunt when they queue as a tank, quit whining about how "tanks totally aren't necessary in normal dungeons" and then acting surprised when your newbie tank doesn't use a taunt.

Now imagine trying to learn to be a DPS and figure out a rotation and boss mechanics when you've got a fake tank who's not holding aggro and the boss is in your face. It makes it a lot harder to learn how to do your role when the tank isn't doing theirs.

Aisle9

VaranisArano wrote: »

A word of advice from someone who mains a tank.

If you want newbies to understand that they need to slot a taunt when they queue as a tank, quit whining about how "tanks totally aren't necessary in normal dungeons" and then acting surprised when your newbie tank doesn't use a taunt.

Now imagine trying to learn to be a DPS and figure out a rotation and boss mechanics when you've got a fake tank who's not holding aggro and the boss is in your face. It makes it a lot harder to learn how to do your role when the tank isn't doing theirs.

A tank in Darkshade II is as necessary as a butt with no hole, with the exception of the Alit boss (which is skippable).

If you want newbies to slot a taunt when they queue as tank, you should at least make sure they know what a taunt is.

Just saying.

Aurielle

VaranisArano wrote: »

A word of advice from someone who mains a tank.

If you want newbies to understand that they need to slot a taunt when they queue as a tank, quit whining about how "tanks totally aren't necessary in normal dungeons" and then acting surprised when your newbie tank doesn't use a taunt.

Now imagine trying to learn to be a DPS and figure out a rotation and boss mechanics when you've got a fake tank who's not holding aggro and the boss is in your face. It makes it a lot harder to learn how to do your role when the tank isn't doing theirs.

Eh... I think it depends on the group make-up, honestly. If you have at least one competent high level DPSer in the group, and the other three group members understand basic dungeon mechanics (e.g. dodge-rolling out of stupid), then a tank is absolutely not required for a normal dungeon. If group make-up is sub-optimal, then a hybrid tank is fine. I've been "tanking" normals on my PVP-oriented Templar tank lately to level Undaunted. It does a moderate amount of damage and can carry anything through a normal just fine (not quickly, mind, but we get there eventually). I taunt bosses, and that's it. I throw out some heals too if the healer is struggling. No one dies. I'm actually thinking of throwing some cheap crafted PVE gear on him to boost the damage up a bit.

"Fake" tanks are fine in normals, AS LONG AS they can survive and do in fact have a taunt they can slot if necessary. The problem is more the noobs who click the tank icon because it gets them in the dungeon faster, not realizing that they actually will have to tank the dungeon if they're running with a sub-optimal group.

EDIT: Oh, and if you're going to queue as a fake tank, you'd better also know the dungeons you're running well, and be prepared to lead the potentially headless chickens into the fray. The only thing worse than a fake tank who just stands back and waits for the group to engage the boss is a fake tank who does no damage and dies in two seconds.

purple-magicb16_ESO

Normal dungeons already exist for this purpose. Optionally, group with guildies with the stated purpose of learning. Guildies love teaching (molding?) young lumps of clay. If you must, then do it on an optional basis. Some of us don't need training wheels.

My thought? It's a game. The best way to learn is by playing it. Don't fear dungeons, they can be your friend especially if you need to level.

Waffennacht

Didn't read, but the general idea is a YES for me

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I will never argue against anything that helps bring players up to scratch in this game. I think more tutorials and basic requirements (especially to queue as a support role) would benefit the greater good.

My solutions:

Step 1: account wide achievements (not every toon needs to run wayrest on normal). Step 2. A hierarchy of dungeon achievements that don't let you queue for harder stuff until some lessor requirements have been met.

For example, you shouldnt be allowed to queue for a veteran dungeon until you have completed the normal version (or vet version outside of groupfinder). You wouldnt be allowed to queue for spindle 2 until you have completed spindle 1. You wouldnt be allowed to queue for a DLC dungeon until you have completed a good chunk of the non DLC dungeons, etc. A smarter group finder would go a long way on this issue.

VaranisArano

Are pure tanks necessary in normal dungeons? Hahaha, no. And I play a pure tank.

For normal dungeons, I actually prefer to run my DPS/Tank, a DPS with pierce armor who can hold aggro, block and bash, and still do enough DPS to carry a group. But I already knew how to tank when I made that character.

What all of you "tanks aren't necessary" arguers seem to be missing is that if you want to train new players to be tanks that can taunt, crowd control and buff/debuff/group support well enough to do Vet dungeons and Trials, you might actually, at some point, have to actually teach players how to tank in normal dungeons.

But if you just want to complete normal dungeons quickly, by all means, slot a taunt on a DD and dps away. Its the most effective way to do normal dungeons without a doubt.

geonsocal

Group dungeon tutorial for players to complete prior to being "undaunted" - absolutely, big quality of life idea .

BomblePants

Awesome idea.... !!

QuebraRegra

I've responded to similar posts before...

Not only is a training/tutorial for roles needed, but a "qualifier" for each role BEFORE you can queue as that role. The qualifier (which can be part of the tutorial) should have different requirements for VET versus normal content.

That said... THE QUEUE SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE TRASHED, THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE FIRED, AND RE-MADE... proper!

Aurielle

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

Normal dungeons already exist for this purpose. Optionally, group with guildies with the stated purpose of learning. Guildies love teaching (molding?) young lumps of clay. If you must, then do it on an optional basis. Some of us don't need training wheels.

My thought? It's a game. The best way to learn is by playing it. Don't fear dungeons, they can be your friend especially if you need to level.

Is this directed at me...? I know how to play the game, haha. The idea here is to give new players their initial leg up, because lots of people queue for dungeons LONG before they join a guild or find their way to these forums. A scalable training dungeon could also be used as a risk-free space to test out new builds or improve your buffing/debuffing up-time without letting other players down.

Aurielle

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I will never argue against anything that helps bring players up to scratch in this game. I think more tutorials and basic requirements (especially to queue as a support role) would benefit the greater good.

My solutions:

Step 1: account wide achievements (not every toon needs to run wayrest on normal). Step 2. A hierarchy of dungeon achievements that don't let you queue for harder stuff until some lessor requirements have been met.

For example, you shouldnt be allowed to queue for a veteran dungeon until you have completed the normal version (or vet version outside of groupfinder). You wouldnt be allowed to queue for spindle 2 until you have completed spindle 1. You wouldnt be allowed to queue for a DLC dungeon until you have completed a good chunk of the non DLC dungeons, etc. A smarter group finder would go a long way on this issue.

Interesting idea. I think I'm mostly in support of this (especially the idea that you should complete the normal version of a dungeon before you can attempt the vet version. I'm not sure how you would factor Undaunted levelling into the equation with account-wide achievements, though. Would all characters automatically get maxed out Undaunted, or...? I personally wouldn't care if the skill line was universal (god knows it would make life easier for my PVP characters), but I can see how some people would take issue with that.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Aurielle wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I will never argue against anything that helps bring players up to scratch in this game. I think more tutorials and basic requirements (especially to queue as a support role) would benefit the greater good.

My solutions:

Step 1: account wide achievements (not every toon needs to run wayrest on normal). Step 2. A hierarchy of dungeon achievements that don't let you queue for harder stuff until some lessor requirements have been met.

For example, you shouldnt be allowed to queue for a veteran dungeon until you have completed the normal version (or vet version outside of groupfinder). You wouldnt be allowed to queue for spindle 2 until you have completed spindle 1. You wouldnt be allowed to queue for a DLC dungeon until you have completed a good chunk of the non DLC dungeons, etc. A smarter group finder would go a long way on this issue.

Interesting idea. I think I'm mostly in support of this (especially the idea that you should complete the normal version of a dungeon before you can attempt the vet version. I'm not sure how you would factor Undaunted levelling into the equation with account-wide achievements, though. Would all characters automatically get maxed out Undaunted, or...? I personally wouldn't care if the skill line was universal (god knows it would make life easier for my PVP characters), but I can see how some people would take issue with that.

I think you could figure out a way to do account wide achievements with leaving individual achievements alone. just have a separate account wide tab that shows total achievements earned (something I really wish the game had separate from this debate) and something the group finder could reference for this purpose. I really would hate to make every new toon run all 20 or so dungeons on normal.

That said, after 3+ years of playing across 14 toons, I am generally in favor of making as many things as possible account wide.