Master at Arms vs Thaumaturge (tooltips completly wrong and misleading??)

Nemesis7884

I noticed this recently that if the game says "does x damage over x time" it's a dot but if it says "does x damage every x seconds over x time" its considered direct damage - very subtle difference...so what i did - i took my stam sorg which had 64/0 in Thaumatuge/Master-at-arms and switched it around to 0/64 cause i wanted to check what gets buffed and what not.. at lot as you'd expect - for example poison injection the initial impact gets buffed and the dot nerved etc... but there are a few things that surprised me - so what got BUFFED when going OUT of thaumaturge and INTO master at arms:

- Blade Cloak (Deadly Cloak)
- Lightningform (Hurricane)
- Volley (Endless Hail)

i think the wording difference "over x seconds" or "every x seconds" is very subtle...they could really word this better and more clear? Or was that clear to everyone and im just late to the party?

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER

ist master not man

Bowser

Master at Arms buffing Endless Hail? That's very interesting.

Bladerunner1

You mean all those meta guides could be wrong to leave off master at arms completely? Balderdash and horsefeathers!

WatchYourSixx

The tooltip wording could be better, but yes that seems to be the most common difference. However, there unfortunately isn't an easy way to tell without testing yourself. Or somewhere I think there is a guide on what abilities are affected by what..

Nemesis7884

lol i play too much darkest dungeons...man at arms

well seems that master at arms might be more important for a lot of builds than thaumaturge, or instead of using thaumaturge and crit rather change the crit to master at arms...

The key word you have to look out for is "over x seconds " or "every x seconds"

i think it could be useful to complie really a list of all skills and which champion points that buff them

Dojohoda

Humm, this blows my rule-of-thumb regarding what constitutes a dot right out of the water.

Thanks for the information.

Alpheu5

Curse is still considered a 1-2 tick, really long delay DoT, still buffed by thaum. Things are very confusing sometimes.

Nemesis7884

so same thing on magicka - really confusing

blazing spear gets buffed by master at arms - even the dot
same for wall of elements! gets buffed by master at arms!
sweeps/jabs on the other side get buffed by thaumaturge
solar barrage gets buffed by master at arms
Vampire's bains initial damage by master at arms and the dot by thaumaturge
Radiant opression by thaumaturge
Ritual of retribution by master at arms

so yeah...this is quite new to me to be honest...will really have to look into cp again

adeptusminor

Would be nice if you hovered over a CP skill like Master At Arms it lists your skills it will have an affect on

Mettaricana

So my stam sorc can do more dmg using master at arms vs thaurmaturge

Amdar_Godkiller

I've tested Volley, and while the tooltip for the skill appears to increase by putting points into MaA, the actual skill doesn't do more damage. Conversely, if you put points in Thauma it will buff your actual damage with the skill, but the tooltip will remain as it was before.

Mettaricana

Can you test caltrops?

Dawnblade

Yeah typical MMO - opaque, counter-intuitive, and many times conflicting or inconsistent information provided by the game.

Also Thaumaturge is picked up in many meta builds not just for the buff to damage over time, but passives like Exploiter at 75 points (increase damage to off-balance enemies by 10%), so you need to also evaluate the passives in the two trees.

SodanTok

Tooltips are wrong and were wrong always.
Dont trust them.
Endless hail for example is definitely buffed by Thaumaturge. So is hurricane.

But did you for example know, that enchants are buffed sometimes by Master and sometimes by Thaum, depending on what skill procced them?

Nemesis7884

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I've tested Volley, and while the tooltip for the skill appears to increase by putting points into MaA, the actual skill doesn't do more damage. Conversely, if you put points in Thauma it will buff your actual damage with the skill, but the tooltip will remain as it was before.

i am basing my statements soley on the changes in value on the skill and not practical damage tests - volley tooltip values get higher on master at arms vs thaumaturge

but why wouldnt damage numbers correspond to tooltip values - now i am super confused

you can make an argument about the wording even if its really vague and should be better classified - but the tooltip giving you an opposite information than what happens in reality..i mean c mon thats like pre beta level of nonsense??

Alpheu5

SodanTok wrote: »

Tooltips are wrong and were wrong always.
Dont trust them.

Dang, I always did have a gut feeling my frag proc was supposed to have a 70k tooltip, not the whoofy 14k it always shows

jaws343

adeptusminor wrote: »

Would be nice if you hovered over a CP skill like Master At Arms it lists your skills it will have an affect on

Or it would be nice if in the tooltip window when looking at a skill, next to the DPS/Tank symbols, they included the type of damage the skill does.

Amdar_Godkiller

From my experience, Wardens and Nightblades do g

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I've tested Volley, and while the tooltip for the skill appears to increase by putting points into MaA, the actual skill doesn't do more damage. Conversely, if you put points in Thauma it will buff your actual damage with the skill, but the tooltip will remain as it was before.

i am basing my statements soley on the changes in value on the skill and not practical damage tests - volley tooltip values get higher on master at arms vs thaumaturge

but why wouldnt damage numbers correspond to tooltip values - now i am super confused

you can make an argument about the wording even if its really vague and should be better classified - but the tooltip giving you an opposite information than what happens in reality..i mean c mon thats like pre beta level of nonsense??

Believe me, I've been there.

I made a similar post to this one probably 4 months ago when I realized the skill's tooltip number increased with MaA. Someone told me it wasn't the case, so I tested it on my dummy. only thauma buffed it.

I would say that your initial reading of the text was probably partially right. CP in MaA likely causes an increased value in the tooltip of any skill that says, ""does x damage every x seconds", while for Thauma to increase the tooltip it needs to read "damage over x seconds". However the actual calculations for DOTs are based off of whether or not the words "over x seconds" are used or corresponding code that's used to indicate it. Basically the system is mistranslating its equations based on syntax.

Nemesis7884

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

From my experience, Wardens and Nightblades do g

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I've tested Volley, and while the tooltip for the skill appears to increase by putting points into MaA, the actual skill doesn't do more damage. Conversely, if you put points in Thauma it will buff your actual damage with the skill, but the tooltip will remain as it was before.

i am basing my statements soley on the changes in value on the skill and not practical damage tests - volley tooltip values get higher on master at arms vs thaumaturge

but why wouldnt damage numbers correspond to tooltip values - now i am super confused

you can make an argument about the wording even if its really vague and should be better classified - but the tooltip giving you an opposite information than what happens in reality..i mean c mon thats like pre beta level of nonsense??

Believe me, I've been there.

I made a similar post to this one probably 4 months ago when I realized the skill's tooltip number increased with MaA. Someone told me it wasn't the case, so I tested it on my dummy. only thauma buffed it.

I would say that your initial reading of the text was probably partially right. CP in MaA likely causes an increased value in the tooltip of any skill that says, ""does x damage every x seconds", while for Thauma to increase the tooltip it needs to read "damage over x seconds". However the actual calculations for DOTs are based off of whether or not the words "over x seconds" are used or corresponding code that's used to indicate it. Basically the system is mistranslating its equations based on syntax.

this is absolutly unacceptable - we are talking about the most basic things here - this data and the tooltips need to be correct and corrected ASAP - this is absolute essential basic stuff and certainly more important than shoving more crown crates down our face... i mean come on why isn't this *** corrected???? especially if it has been wrong for months - is zos purposfully trying to mislead people or what is this supposed to be??? It can't be unknown - i would assume the people there test things (i hope so)

Bladerunner1

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

From my experience, Wardens and Nightblades do g

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I've tested Volley, and while the tooltip for the skill appears to increase by putting points into MaA, the actual skill doesn't do more damage. Conversely, if you put points in Thauma it will buff your actual damage with the skill, but the tooltip will remain as it was before.

i am basing my statements soley on the changes in value on the skill and not practical damage tests - volley tooltip values get higher on master at arms vs thaumaturge

but why wouldnt damage numbers correspond to tooltip values - now i am super confused

you can make an argument about the wording even if its really vague and should be better classified - but the tooltip giving you an opposite information than what happens in reality..i mean c mon thats like pre beta level of nonsense??

Believe me, I've been there.

I made a similar post to this one probably 4 months ago when I realized the skill's tooltip number increased with MaA. Someone told me it wasn't the case, so I tested it on my dummy. only thauma buffed it.

I would say that your initial reading of the text was probably partially right. CP in MaA likely causes an increased value in the tooltip of any skill that says, ""does x damage every x seconds", while for Thauma to increase the tooltip it needs to read "damage over x seconds". However the actual calculations for DOTs are based off of whether or not the words "over x seconds" are used or corresponding code that's used to indicate it. Basically the system is mistranslating its equations based on syntax.

this is absolutly unaceptable - we are talking about the most basic things here - these data and tooltip need to be correct and corrected ASAP - this is absolute essential basic stuff and certainly more important than shoving more crown crates down our face... i mean come on why isn't this *** corrected???? especially if it has been wrong for months - is zos purposfully trying to mislead people or what is this supposed to be??? It can't be unknown - i would assume the people there test things

I agree, and it has been known since the PTS for Morrowind. Even so there are quite a few class skills that are effected by MAA

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344392/damage-per-second-per-cost-essential-class-skills-master-at-arms-vs-thaumaturge-pts-week-4

Nemesis7884

It would be really NICE if zos could look into that and clarify that what is considered a dot and what not and if the cp are working as intended or need to be corrected.... i know there was recently a correction and change to the path from night blades - i was assuming that was a one off mistake....??? so ZOS - that is important - look into it

Goshua

adeptusminor wrote: »

Would be nice if you hovered over a CP skill like Master At Arms it lists your skills it will have an affect on

It would be that simple. Do they know themselves thoug? lol

Nemesis7884

Goshua wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

Would be nice if you hovered over a CP skill like Master At Arms it lists your skills it will have an affect on

It would be that simple. Do they know themselves thoug? lol

making things more convenient is certainly right

but the tooltips being correct and not showing the oposite of what actually happens isn't nice to have, it is an absolute requirement and needs to be fixed - period

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

SodanTok wrote: »

Tooltips are wrong and were wrong always.
Dont trust them.

100% this ALWAYS test on a dummy. That is why the dummy is there now. No reason not to do your own testing.

Nemesis7884

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Tooltips are wrong and were wrong always.
Dont trust them.

100% this ALWAYS test on a dummy. That is why the dummy is there now. No reason not to do your own testing.

great...why have tooltis at all? why not just write under ever skill "might do some damage"

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Tooltips are wrong and were wrong always.
Dont trust them.

100% this ALWAYS test on a dummy. That is why the dummy is there now. No reason not to do your own testing.

great...why have tooltis at all? why not just write under ever skill "might do some damage"

That would be enough for the vast majority of the people that play this game.

Concret

Made my tests

Volley, cloak, hurricane, caltrops benefit more from thaumaturge

Dagger, slashes, velidreth, injections, benefit more from maa

Nemesis7884

seems very weird for injections and slashes....basically the skill values show the opposite of the truth since the values for slashes go way more up on thauma and your first mentionned go up from maa....so basically reality is the opposite of the description??

HOW *** IS THAT????

makreth

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I've tested Volley, and while the tooltip for the skill appears to increase by putting points into MaA, the actual skill doesn't do more damage. Conversely, if you put points in Thauma it will buff your actual damage with the skill, but the tooltip will remain as it was before.

This. This topic actually was mentioned like a year ago. Don't trust tooltips. Zos hasn't done anything to fix them or sort this mess out unfortunately. They probably don't care...

MercTheMage

Doesn't proc nerieneth, its a dot.