Buff Mass Hysteria asap!

Ectheliontnacil

[PVP DISCUSSION]

As you all know Mass Hysteria was nerfed and now only fears up to 2 nearby enemies. This was in all likelihood intended to be a nerf to stamina nightblades who are (possibly) overperforming in the current game. But this change was not warranted for a number of reasons:

Firstly this is also a huge nerf to magicka nightblades, a class that is already underperforming in openworld (solo) pvp and sorely needed the old mass hysteria, to relieve pressure when faced with multiple opponents.

Secondly this nerf doesn't have the desired effect (nerfing stamina nightblades), since the primary stun for stamblades is Incapacitating Strike. While still being useful, stamina nightblades don't depend on Mass Hysteria the same way magicka nightblades do, when they are outnumbered, this is due to the fact that stamina nightblades' high mobility makes it much harder to pin them down or surround them (therefore there is also no need to fear more than 2 targets). If stamina nightblades need a nerf I would suggest adjusting the Incapacitating Strike (remove stun or decrease damage...) morph or Surprise Attack (remove major breach, increase cost...).

Thirdly and most importantly: Why nerf an AoE stun? If a nightblade (stamina or magicka) is faced with multiple opponents (more than 2) they're at a disadvantage anyways. I really don't see the point in nerfing a class's survivability in outnumbered situations. If a playstyle is over performing, lessen its effectiveness in 1v1 combat, so that other builds can compete. But by nerfing Mass Hysteria the single target capabilities remained completely unchanged...

So please, increase the fear from Mass Hysteria to 3-5 enemies (5 might be too much 3 might be too little, so go with 4 ), I believe this would go a long way to balance the magicka nightblade playstyle and make the class viable again in openworld pvp, while not at all buffing stamina nightblades.

Would be great if we could see this change in the near future and I'm curious to see what you guys think about this suggestion !

West93

This nerf is nothing compared to blazing spear stun removal, try to play without any unblockable stun and no real mobility/escape options (mistform is still meh) in open world and then complain.

Aztlan

Make it so!

(You can also run Manifestation of Terror, which fears many more. But I find this more useful in group rather than solo situations.)

VaranisArano

Fix being able to reliably break free of fear effects (issues with CC-breaks in general, really) and then we can talk.

Earthewen

The CC immunity feature has been broken for sometime now. I played another MMO in PVP and if you were CC'd, there was a cool down before you could be CC'd again. I'd like to see that here as well. It was about a 5 to 10 second cool down. It totally did a number on those that spammed the CC's constantly. It included all CC's no matter what skill or source. This would be great for our PVP on ESO as well. This would give everyone a chance to counter things instead of standing for 10 seconds wiggling like a rag doll unable to cast any skills whatsoever until you die 15 seconds later.

DDuke

Is this a serious thread?

I'd pick magblade over stamblade any day of the week for open world solo pvp, atleast they don't die in 3 seconds when someone with a gap closer & undodgeable damage shows up.


That said, I think fear is fairly balanced right now (and the other morph can be really strong as well, if you know how to play with it) as far as undodgeable/blockable CCs go.

It isn't as strong as Fossilize vs single target, doesn't have the range of Rune Cage, but it does CC multiple targets & puts a Minor Maim on them.


If magicka NB needs any buffing, it isn't in the CC category. Making Shadow Image/Cloak more reliable would be the way to go.

Magdalina

Earthewen wrote: »

The CC immunity feature has been broken for sometime now. I played another MMO in PVP and if you were CC'd, there was a cool down before you could be CC'd again. I'd like to see that here as well. It was about a 5 to 10 second cool down. It totally did a number on those that spammed the CC's constantly. It included all CC's no matter what skill or source. This would be great for our PVP on ESO as well. This would give everyone a chance to counter things instead of standing for 10 seconds wiggling like a rag doll unable to cast any skills whatsoever until you die 15 seconds later.

There is a 7 second cooldown. In theory <insert troll face here> In reality, the cooldown
1)only works against other players, meaning mobs can cc you as many times in a row as they want. They removed the PvE cc immunity without any explanation or note in patch notes whatsoever.
2)it only kicks in AFTER the cc is over. Meaning if you get, say, wrecking blow'd(or whichever morph is currently knocking you back) in the air, if you let it fully lapse, then after that IN THEORY you cannot get cc'd again for 7 seconds. BUT, if you get wrecking blow'd again(or feared or whatever) while you're still in the middle of the original cc, you can and will get cc'd, and the system will wait til that new cc is over before giving you cc immunity. It's a bs system making non stop chain cc's possible.
3)even after taking first 2 points into account, it's still buggy af. A lot of the times it flatout doesn't work, other times it lags. I'm also fairly sure that lag or not, cc immunity from all sources currently takes about a second to activate - and it did not always do that, but I cannot point my finger at when exactly it started. Many a time have I broken free/let cc lapse/drink immov potion only to see my character get feared again and run away surrounded by pretty white swirls of cc immunity in that very second.

I don't think Fear can ever be balanced until they fix the breakfree issue, it's too strong coupled up with inability to breakfree or oftentimes even SEE it.

Earthewen

@Magdalina - Yes, exactly. IN Theory! lol That's sort of what I mean though. I think it would be great that the immunity actually worked and only one CC could occur at a time. Meaning you couldn't be CC'd again no matter what. It could be done. All other debuffs work that way. You can't stack them. With the mechanic working the way it is now, it's almost like a stacking of the CC's. Not saying it is completely, but it seems to be working like that. Let's simplify it a bit. Perhaps it is too complicated as it stands now.

1. CC is applied.
2. CC is either broken free from or comes to and end before you die.
3. CC immunity to all CCs is applied for ____ seconds and you cannot be touched by another CC of any type for the full duration.

Would this help the small man groups and solo players in the long run?

deepseamk20b14_ESO

No way you’re serious. Mass hysteria is fine. I disagree with damn near everything you said.

Earthewen

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

No way you’re serious. Mass hysteria is fine. I disagree with damn near everything you said.

I'm sure a lot of people do disagree. Mass hysteria does seem to be spammed and repeated due to some broken mechanics however. I'm not saying to change it necessarily, but just fix the immunity after being CC'd that never seems to work right.

ak_pvp

I agree. It shouldn't have a cap (Nothing multi target should have some arbitrary cap.) The stun/run should be joined so you can insta break free instead of the awkward 1s where you are turning can't. The overall stun should also shortened to 2.5s like foss/rune.

f047ys3v3n

Magdalina wrote: »

2)it only kicks in AFTER the cc is over. Meaning if you get, say, wrecking blow'd(or whichever morph is currently knocking you back) in the air, if you let it fully lapse, then after that IN THEORY you cannot get cc'd again for 7 seconds. BUT, if you get wrecking blow'd again(or feared or whatever) while you're still in the middle of the original cc, you can and will get cc'd, and the system will wait til that new cc is over before giving you cc immunity. It's a bs system making non stop chain cc's possible.
3)even after taking first 2 points into account, it's still buggy af. A lot of the times it flatout doesn't work, other times it lags. I'm also fairly sure that lag or not, cc immunity from all sources currently takes about a second to activate - and it did not always do that, but I cannot point my finger at when exactly it started. Many a time have I broken free/let cc lapse/drink immov potion only to see my character get feared again and run away surrounded by pretty white swirls of cc immunity in that very second.

I don't think Fear can ever be balanced until they fix the breakfree issue, it's too strong coupled up with inability to breakfree or oftentimes even SEE it.

This explains so much. I had been wondering why it seemed that I would be CC chained sometimes when there is supposed to be a CC cooldown on players (I know damn well why I sometimes get CC's until dead in vMA once for the full duration of the healing and shield sigals). This chain CC in PVP seems quite common. My notes on CC's are basically that you must apply an immovability pot prior to enemy engagement (after an enemy CC seems to be no good as you will be often chain CC'd in this situation and pot seems to have no effect if employed in the middle of a chain.) Also, pots seem to offer some protection to slows whereas rapid maneuver, ironically, seems unreliable in practice even if carefully maintained and not broken with a heal or attack.

As for fear vs other CC's, I really don't see it as OP vs any other. I agree that it gains something by going through block but block cast fighting is less common than it used to be and most high block time combat builds seem to also employ immovable pots. On the other side, fear is relatively quickly broken vs other CC's such as javlin or wrecking blow that have a long duration unbreakable animation phase. At this point I would certainly rather be feared than hit with a javlin or wrecking blow as I rarely die when feared and usually react to it so fast that it is hardly an inconvenience. I would also rather an opponent be hit with a javlin or wrecking blow as I will almost certainly have them dead before they recover whereas with fear they usually break it first.

Since I am a NB, I do have fear though I find that I rarely use it in combat since the last nerf. This is because it is a bet that doesn't pay out much. It is expensive, does no damage, and when you hit only immune players it still has that high cost with no effect at all. The vast majority of the time I cast it all players hit are CC immune from pots or from immunity timer. I am actually planning to change the morph to the trap one so that the cast can be part of the buff up sequence and therefore not cost a combat cast. At this point, the low efficacy will be balanced only against no effective cost since it will be a pre-combat cast. This will cost me any sort of real time CC on my bar but I wasn't winning any 1v1's with the almost insta-broken fear as my CC. I will put on clench for that and I think I'll end up ahead. At least if clench hits a CC immune player you have still applied a weak DOT to them instead of just total wasted a cast and a big chunk of resources.

Ectheliontnacil

@ak_pvp @deepseamk20b14_ESO

ak_pvp wrote: »

I agree. It shouldn't have a cap (Nothing multi target should have some arbitrary cap.)

Good player response to this thread.
Agreed, I do not see the point in caps on AoE abilities...as I said, being outnumbered automatically puts you at a disadvantage (why make it even worse with caps?).

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

No way you’re serious. Mass hysteria is fine. I disagree with damn near everything you said.

Zergling response to this thread.
Lol apparently you don't even see the need to justify your comment, so why should I care about what you "disagree with"? This is a discussion and not somewhere you can go to spout nonsense. And don't use vulgar language in an attempt to bully more educated minds into agreeing with you .

Earthewen

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

2)it only kicks in AFTER the cc is over. Meaning if you get, say, wrecking blow'd(or whichever morph is currently knocking you back) in the air, if you let it fully lapse, then after that IN THEORY you cannot get cc'd again for 7 seconds. BUT, if you get wrecking blow'd again(or feared or whatever) while you're still in the middle of the original cc, you can and will get cc'd, and the system will wait til that new cc is over before giving you cc immunity. It's a bs system making non stop chain cc's possible.
3)even after taking first 2 points into account, it's still buggy af. A lot of the times it flatout doesn't work, other times it lags. I'm also fairly sure that lag or not, cc immunity from all sources currently takes about a second to activate - and it did not always do that, but I cannot point my finger at when exactly it started. Many a time have I broken free/let cc lapse/drink immov potion only to see my character get feared again and run away surrounded by pretty white swirls of cc immunity in that very second.

I don't think Fear can ever be balanced until they fix the breakfree issue, it's too strong coupled up with inability to breakfree or oftentimes even SEE it.

This explains so much. I had been wondering why it seemed that I would be CC chained sometimes when there is supposed to be a CC cooldown on players (I know damn well why I sometimes get CC's until dead in vMA once for the full duration of the healing and shield sigals). This chain CC in PVP seems quite common. My notes on CC's are basically that you must apply an immovability pot prior to enemy engagement (after an enemy CC seems to be no good as you will be often chain CC'd in this situation and pot seems to have no effect if employed in the middle of a chain.) Also, pots seem to offer some protection to slows whereas rapid maneuver, ironically, seems unreliable in practice even if carefully maintained and not broken with a heal or attack.

As for fear vs other CC's, I really don't see it as OP vs any other. I agree that it gains something by going through block but block cast fighting is less common than it used to be and most high block time combat builds seem to also employ immovable pots. On the other side, fear is relatively quickly broken vs other CC's such as javlin or wrecking blow that have a long duration unbreakable animation phase. At this point I would certainly rather be feared than hit with a javlin or wrecking blow as I rarely die when feared and usually react to it so fast that it is hardly an inconvenience. I would also rather an opponent be hit with a javlin or wrecking blow as I will almost certainly have them dead before they recover whereas with fear they usually break it first.

Since I am a NB, I do have fear though I find that I rarely use it in combat since the last nerf. This is because it is a bet that doesn't pay out much. It is expensive, does no damage, and when you hit only immune players it still has that high cost with no effect at all. The vast majority of the time I cast it all players hit are CC immune from pots or from immunity timer. I am actually planning to change the morph to the trap one so that the cast can be part of the buff up sequence and therefore not cost a combat cast. At this point, the low efficacy will be balanced only against no effective cost since it will be a pre-combat cast. This will cost me any sort of real time CC on my bar but I wasn't winning any 1v1's with the almost insta-broken fear as my CC. I will put on clench for that and I think I'll end up ahead. At least if clench hits a CC immune player you have still applied a weak DOT to them instead of just total wasted a cast and a big chunk of resources.

I am wondering what you spoke of about fear in duels? Could it be that mechanics are a bit different in duels than they are in PVP? I don't duel much so I'm not sure.

Apache_Kid

West93 wrote: »

This nerf is nothing compared to blazing spear stun removal, try to play without any unblockable stun and no real mobility/escape options (mistform is still meh) in open world and then complain.

I find mistform to be extremely strong in open world. Always a rocky out-crop or tree-line somewhere that you can get to quickly with it to get the LoS advantage.

Magdalina

ak_pvp wrote: »

I agree. It shouldn't have a cap (Nothing multi target should have some arbitrary cap.) The stun/run should be joined so you can insta break free instead of the awkward 1s where you are turning can't. The overall stun should also shortened to 2.5s like foss/rune.

Erm...do you realize what you just said? Fear is the ONLY multi target hard cc in the game, not counting ultimates. Are you seriously implying a random NB should be able to just jump down and fear EVERYONE?

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

2)it only kicks in AFTER the cc is over. Meaning if you get, say, wrecking blow'd(or whichever morph is currently knocking you back) in the air, if you let it fully lapse, then after that IN THEORY you cannot get cc'd again for 7 seconds. BUT, if you get wrecking blow'd again(or feared or whatever) while you're still in the middle of the original cc, you can and will get cc'd, and the system will wait til that new cc is over before giving you cc immunity. It's a bs system making non stop chain cc's possible.
3)even after taking first 2 points into account, it's still buggy af. A lot of the times it flatout doesn't work, other times it lags. I'm also fairly sure that lag or not, cc immunity from all sources currently takes about a second to activate - and it did not always do that, but I cannot point my finger at when exactly it started. Many a time have I broken free/let cc lapse/drink immov potion only to see my character get feared again and run away surrounded by pretty white swirls of cc immunity in that very second.

I don't think Fear can ever be balanced until they fix the breakfree issue, it's too strong coupled up with inability to breakfree or oftentimes even SEE it.

As for fear vs other CC's, I really don't see it as OP vs any other. I agree that it gains something by going through block but block cast fighting is less common than it used to be and most high block time combat builds seem to also employ immovable pots. On the other side, fear is relatively quickly broken vs other CC's such as javlin or wrecking blow that have a long duration unbreakable animation phase. At this point I would certainly rather be feared than hit with a javlin or wrecking blow as I rarely die when feared and usually react to it so fast that it is hardly an inconvenience. I would also rather an opponent be hit with a javlin or wrecking blow as I will almost certainly have them dead before they recover whereas with fear they usually break it first.

Fear has always been the buggiest of them all for me and many others, afaik. Sometimes you flatout don't see the animation, your char just stands there like an idiot with all skills greyed out. Sometimes breakfree just won't work, either at all or for the first several seconds of the cc; the probably most common bug for me is for a second or two my char just stands there doing nothing, unable to activate any skills OR breakfre, THEN she finally starts running as she should while feared and then I can finally breakfree. I think the biggest issue is its length, which makes it even harder to balance. On one hand, if everything works properly, people will break it the moment they get it and NB get no benefit from the potential cc length, only wasted magicka, but on the other hand if it bugs and doesn't let you break it then you're left 100% helpless for what is it...full 4 seconds? It's probably the longest hard cc in the game, and that's a hell of a lot of time in PvP.

It's sad when what makes a skill strong is its bugginess.

Ectheliontnacil

@Magdalina

Magdalina wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I agree. It shouldn't have a cap (Nothing multi target should have some arbitrary cap.) The stun/run should be joined so you can insta break free instead of the awkward 1s where you are turning can't. The overall stun should also shortened to 2.5s like foss/rune.

Erm...do you realize what you just said? Fear is the ONLY multi target hard cc in the game, not counting ultimates. Are you seriously implying a random NB should be able to just jump down and fear EVERYONE?

Werewolf roar?

Magdalina

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

@Magdalina

Magdalina wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

I agree. It shouldn't have a cap (Nothing multi target should have some arbitrary cap.) The stun/run should be joined so you can insta break free instead of the awkward 1s where you are turning can't. The overall stun should also shortened to 2.5s like foss/rune.

Erm...do you realize what you just said? Fear is the ONLY multi target hard cc in the game, not counting ultimates. Are you seriously implying a random NB should be able to just jump down and fear EVERYONE?

Werewolf roar?

Werewolf form is an ultimate to begin with.

Vizier

Agreed. The Nerf was totally unnecessary.

NyassaV

This was my un-gang-bang button. I want it back... It servers little other purpose

Ectheliontnacil

@Hollery

Hollery wrote: »

This was my un-gang-bang button. I want it back... It servers little other purpose

Yep, and almost all other classes have a better toolkit for surviving outnumbered fights anyway. Why take Mass Hysteria away, which wasn't making nb's overpowered in 1v1 XD...completely pointless.

Strider__Roshin

Magblade is top dog right now. Stamblade is mid-low tier right now. I can't take you seriously from this post.

NyassaV

Daus wrote: »

Magblade is top dog right now. Stamblade is mid-low tier right now. I can't take you seriously from this post.

I've seen your bias in the past, sorry sorry. discredited. Magblade is only good if you understand it and can play it well, as it should be. Skill should be rewarding

ak_pvp

Daus wrote: »

Magblade is top dog right now. Stamblade is mid-low tier right now. I can't take you seriously from this post.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Ectheliontnacil

Daus wrote: »

Magblade is top dog right now. Stamblade is mid-low tier right now. I can't take you seriously from this post.

A skilful magblade in a 1v1 is a force to be reckoned with. However nightblades don't possess the same kind of toolkit to survive in outnumbered situations, that other classes have - especially with magicka with the Mass Hysteria morph.

Either you are a dueller or you don't know what you are talking about, sry dude.

kaithuzar

The ONLY reason why everyone thinks fear is SUPER STRONG is because OCCASIONALLY it BUGS out!

If fear worked normally every time then definitely it needs to CC 4 people. Right now it should fear 3 but unfortunately only 2 so we have to suffice.

What I honestly don't understand is why is there a need for 3+ different types of CC's???
That has to be a nightmare to keep track of, especially with bad code.
My vote is remove/combine snares, roots, hard cc, soft cc, etc... into one category called CC, then you are either CC'd or not.
K(eep) I(t) S(imple) S(tupid)

VaranisArano

kaithuzar wrote: »

The ONLY reason why everyone thinks fear is SUPER STRONG is because OCCASIONALLY it BUGS out!

If fear worked normally every time then definitely it needs to CC 4 people. Right now it should fear 3 but unfortunately only 2 so we have to suffice.

What I honestly don't understand is why is there a need for 3+ different types of CC's???
That has to be a nightmare to keep track of, especially with bad code.
My vote is remove/combine snares, roots, hard cc, soft cc, etc... into one category called CC, then you are either CC'd or not.
K(eep) I(t) S(imple) S(tupid)

Like I said above, fix the bugs with breaking free of Fears and then we can talk about redoing fear skills. I don't have a problem with the OP's suggestion in an ideal world, but I don't want to be screwed over in the current game with buggy fears.

DeadlyRecluse

The nerf was unnecessary, but a buff would be unnecessary, too.

It was the best nonultimate CC. It is still the best nonultimate CC, just...less so.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

@Ectheliontnacil

[/quote]
Zergling response to this thread.
Lol apparently you don't even see the need to justify your comment, so why should I care about what you "disagree with"? This is a discussion and not somewhere you can go to spout nonsense. And don't use vulgar language in an attempt to bully more educated minds into agreeing with you .[/quote]

Okay smart guy. You’ve already spouted nonsense so I did too perhaps? Here is the truth of it all. I’m a solo player. Not a ganker either. I spend all my time away from zergs getting people to come after me so I can actually have some fun 1vXing people. This game can’t handle that many people without insane lag, FPS drop, and loss of sound. You calling anyone a zergling because they don’t think adding more to the MASS HYSTERIA cap is so ludicrous which is why I said you couldn’t possibly be serious.

Maybe since you’re so familiar with what a zergling is it’s because you’re actually a Zerg surfer? I’ve been maining a Nightblade since beta. Mass hysteria has been on and off my bar for years. Prior to the change the skill was great and after the change it’s still awesome. Maybe you’re new but there is another morph that can break up zergs better than mass hysteria. But no. You don’t want that morph even though it does EXACTLY what you want because you want the game to cater to you and that’s it. Screw balance! Forget making a choice! Let’s design a skill around you! Let’s make an easy mode! Awesome show great job!

I’m ALL for raising caps on other stuff to break up zergs and such, go right ahead it won’t effect me whatsoever when I’m by myself lulz. But here is a little tip from me: don’t stand in the path of the bomb/Zerg, and you won’t die! Who would of thought that not standing in front of 50 players spamming AoE would help you survive? Gee golly that’s amazing news!

People have wanted nerf after nerf and CONSTANTLY complain about mass hysteria being overpowered. People like you have horse blinders on. You don’t ask for buffs that are A. Not needed, if you can’t win with the current mass hysteria you don’t deserve a higher cap and B. That’s how you get things nerfed even worse. I wouldn’t mind it going back up to where it used to be, but I simply don’t need it to as I don’t rely on it for an I win button.

You think the change to mass hysteria was random? It was the same for three years but eventually they reached the tipping point because every other thread was complaining about the skill be OP and/or broken. But you can’t see that. Why use a morph that can fear a butt ton of players when you can pick you favorite and complain how you want it buffed?

Edit: vulgar language? Are you 5?

Rainraven

Are magblades not ok? I see plenty of them.

And if they're not ok, would they be ok if shade wasn't broken (sometimes) and cloak worked reliably and the game didn't lag so much?

I don't really think mass hysteria is the issue. It's still strong as hell and the CC most likely to decide to be unbreakable just because.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Rainraven wrote: »

Are magblades not ok? I see plenty of them.

And if they're not ok, would they be ok if shade wasn't broken (sometimes) and cloak worked reliably and the game didn't lag so much?

I don't really think mass hysteria is the issue. It's still strong as hell and the CC most likely to decide to be unbreakable just because.

Mage blades are good but have a steep learning curve. I wouldn’t call them too dogs by any means but a good, experienced player can really make them shine.