Implosion should not proc on bleeds

Solariken

I know bleeds are technically considered physical damage, but this is super obnoxious.

Most people tolerate Implosion but everyone gets frustrated by it. In the case of stamsorcs I always joke about Implosion having an effective 100% proc rate, but in all seriousness it's a very easy and reliable proc, dual wield storcs can depend on it.

But let's think about this a moment - a "bleed" is simply blood falling out of my body from a previous wound. Why would this cause me to randomly explode? IMO only actual "hits" should have the ability to proc Implosion.

Thoughts?

Solariken

For reference, what prompted me to make this post is that I was in a chaosball game where a Stamsorc had the ball and I fought and killed him (his bleeds still on me after he died), then I picked up the ball and started fighting a stamDk who leaped me several seconds later - the Leap wouldn't have killed me but I died to Implosion from the long-dead sorc. >: /

Savos_Saren

Solariken wrote: »

For reference, what prompted me to make this post is that I was in a chaosball game where a Stamsorc had the ball and I fought and killed him (his bleeds still on me after he died), then I picked up the ball and started fighting a stamDk who leaped me several seconds later - the Leap wouldn't have killed me but I died to Implosion from the long-dead sorc. >: /

Even dead sorcs still steal a DK's killing blow.

ak_pvp

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

For reference, what prompted me to make this post is that I was in a chaosball game where a Stamsorc had the ball and I fought and killed him (his bleeds still on me after he died), then I picked up the ball and started fighting a stamDk who leaped me several seconds later - the Leap wouldn't have killed me but I died to Implosion from the long-dead sorc. >: /

Even dead sorcs still steal a DK's killing blow.

Its a fair trade, my skoria carries me, even post demise.

Solariken

ak_pvp wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

For reference, what prompted me to make this post is that I was in a chaosball game where a Stamsorc had the ball and I fought and killed him (his bleeds still on me after he died), then I picked up the ball and started fighting a stamDk who leaped me several seconds later - the Leap wouldn't have killed me but I died to Implosion from the long-dead sorc. >: /

Even dead sorcs still steal a DK's killing blow.

Its a fair trade, my skoria carries me, even post demise.

Haha yeah those phantom Skoria haunts are annoying as well XD

Savos_Saren

I miss Skoria. I swore I'd never give him up... but then Slimecraw happened to me. That damage, tho...

Sixty5

If you want my Implosion procs, you are gonna have to pry them from my cold dead hands.

Bleed based stam sorc is about the only think that makes Battlegrounds playable for me right now. Nothing else even comes close to as powerful at tank busting.

Aliyavana

Sixty5 wrote: »

If you want my Implosion procs, you are gonna have to pry them from my cold dead hands.

Bleed based stam sorc is about the only think that makes Battlegrounds playable for me right now. Nothing else even comes close to as powerful at tank busting.

what build do you run on a bleed build? and is it viable for non cp?

Ragnarock41

implosion should not exist in the first place but it does.
Nobody likes it, not even sorcs. RNG based crap is not welcomed well in any PvP game.

Well, it exists anyways so what can we even do about it lol.

Vapirko

Yep, implosion is pretty messed up as a class passive. Insta executes should not be automatically built into a class. It’s like a secondary, free mages wrath.

Minno

Vapirko wrote: »

Yep, implosion is pretty messed up as a class passive. Insta executes should not be automatically built into a class. It’s like a secondary, free mages wrath.

Well Stam sorc shouldn't have had it given that dual weld, two hander and bow all have some version of an execute passive/abilities.

I'm fine with magsorc having it.

ak_pvp

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Yep, implosion is pretty messed up as a class passive. Insta executes should not be automatically built into a class. It’s like a secondary, free mages wrath.

Well Stam sorc shouldn't have had it given that dual weld, two hander and bow all have some version of an execute passive/abilities.

I'm fine with magsorc having it.

Eh, i'd say the opposite, since Msorcs can preemptively execute its already rip below a certain threshold, whereas Ssorc has only slight passives. Though IMO both should be replaced with a small chance to deal small extra damage and setting offbalance on a crit. That way the damage would stay the same for PvE. A hard phys/shock damage messing with nerves or causing trauma makes more sense than spontaneous combustion from some wind. But hell, there are less logical abilities.

casparian

Wait, which claim is this thread about? Because I'm already seeing four:

- RNG-based passive execute procs don't belong in the game
- They're actually fine, but only magsorcs should have them and not stamsorcs
- They're actually fine, but they shouldn't proc off bleeds
- They're actually fine, but they shouldn't proc after the player with that passive has died

Vapirko

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Yep, implosion is pretty messed up as a class passive. Insta executes should not be automatically built into a class. It’s like a secondary, free mages wrath.

Well Stam sorc shouldn't have had it given that dual weld, two hander and bow all have some version of an execute passive/abilities.

I'm fine with magsorc having it.

Magsorcs have one of the best executes in the game.

NyassaV

Implosion shouldn't be a thing in general. Especailly in PvP

Ladislao

Solariken wrote: »

I know bleeds are technically considered physical damage, but this is super obnoxious.

Most people tolerate Implosion but everyone gets frustrated by it. In the case of stamsorcs I always joke about Implosion having an effective 100% proc rate, but in all seriousness it's a very easy and reliable proc, dual wield storcs can depend on it.

But let's think about this a moment - a "bleed" is simply blood falling out of my body from a previous wound. Why would this cause me to randomly explode? IMO only actual "hits" should have the ability to proc Implosion.

Thoughts?

Well, as I know stamina sorcerers are not meta. As well as dots because auto-purge, only burst is viable, etc etc. So this should not be a real problem. Or there was another metashift in spite of whining about buffs/reworks?

Btw, as long as bleed is a physical damage implosion should proc. It is not worth producing contradictions.

Biro123

I think the comments on whether mag sorcs should have it are interesting..

Why do people think this?

I see 'no because they already have the strongest execute'. Surely if this is the case then the target is dead anyway, so changing implosion for something else will only be a buff.

Or 'its OK for magsorc'. Is this because they have very few dots in PvP (if any) and so a very low chance to proc it... Ie. The passive is pretty much useless and therefore OK?

Am I reading this right? Those saying mag sorcs shouldn't have it are asking them to be buffed, those saying the opposite are OK that its weak?

For stam sorc, its much, much more useful. I think that without a class execute, its good to have one less reason to be tied to 2-hander (for its execute in this case). Don't forget, its still a very low threshold, and in most cases, the next hit would be a kill anyway.
But I do think that procs (from anything) shouldn't happen after death.

Minno

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Yep, implosion is pretty messed up as a class passive. Insta executes should not be automatically built into a class. It’s like a secondary, free mages wrath.

Well Stam sorc shouldn't have had it given that dual weld, two hander and bow all have some version of an execute passive/abilities.

I'm fine with magsorc having it.

Eh, i'd say the opposite, since Msorcs can preemptively execute its already rip below a certain threshold, whereas Ssorc has only slight passives. Though IMO both should be replaced with a small chance to deal small extra damage and setting offbalance on a crit. That way the damage would stay the same for PvE. A hard phys/shock damage messing with nerves or causing trauma makes more sense than spontaneous combustion from some wind. But hell, there are less logical abilities.

Reason why I say the above statement is because in order to roll a spamable skill, sorcs have to take less spell damage through slotting destro staff and they have no dot that can passively stick on the target. Implosion helps shorten the gap between not having a spamable/targetable dot.

Now Stam sorcs can use dual weld, which have their own execute spell, in addition to resist ignoring bleeds and much higher weapon damage stacking. Should implosion proc off an resist ignoring dot that has no counter besides purge?

Morgul667

As if stam sorc needs a nerf

Seriously leave stam sorc where it is or give it a slight buff

Maulkin

Solariken wrote: »

For reference, what prompted me to make this post is that I was in a chaosball game where a Stamsorc had the ball and I fought and killed him (his bleeds still on me after he died), then I picked up the ball and started fighting a stamDk who leaped me several seconds later - the Leap wouldn't have killed me but I died to Implosion from the long-dead sorc. >: /

Annoying as that can be, come on.

Firstly, getting hit from procs of dead player is not uncommon, meaning that many monster sets do that. Earthgore, Skoria, Ilambris immediately come to mind. Secondly, Stam Sorcs are hardly in a place where they need nerfs to become more balanced, don't you think?

As a MagSorc, I don't really care about that passive too much. It procs more in PvE from Lightning Wall & Liquid Lightning than anything in PvP. The only Shock Damage reliably applied by MagSorcs is Fury which will already cause death in execute range.

Solariken

Maulkin wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

For reference, what prompted me to make this post is that I was in a chaosball game where a Stamsorc had the ball and I fought and killed him (his bleeds still on me after he died), then I picked up the ball and started fighting a stamDk who leaped me several seconds later - the Leap wouldn't have killed me but I died to Implosion from the long-dead sorc. >: /

Annoying as that can be, come on.

Firstly, getting hit from procs of dead player is not uncommon, meaning that many monster sets do that. Earthgore, Skoria, Ilambris immediately come to mind. Secondly, Stam Sorcs are hardly in a place where they need nerfs to become more balanced, don't you think?

As a MagSorc, I don't really care about that passive too much. It procs more in PvE from Lightning Wall & Liquid Lightning than anything in PvP. The only Shock Damage reliably applied by MagSorcs is Fury which will already cause death in execute range.

Why do people on the forum keep acting like Stamsorc is weak? I still find them very very strong, albeit generally more effective in burst setups (like everyone else...) and suffer from defile proliferation (like most stam specs). I don't want stamsorcs nerfed at all, but Implosion could use a rework.

Maulkin

Solariken wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

For reference, what prompted me to make this post is that I was in a chaosball game where a Stamsorc had the ball and I fought and killed him (his bleeds still on me after he died), then I picked up the ball and started fighting a stamDk who leaped me several seconds later - the Leap wouldn't have killed me but I died to Implosion from the long-dead sorc. >: /

Annoying as that can be, come on.

Firstly, getting hit from procs of dead player is not uncommon, meaning that many monster sets do that. Earthgore, Skoria, Ilambris immediately come to mind. Secondly, Stam Sorcs are hardly in a place where they need nerfs to become more balanced, don't you think?

As a MagSorc, I don't really care about that passive too much. It procs more in PvE from Lightning Wall & Liquid Lightning than anything in PvP. The only Shock Damage reliably applied by MagSorcs is Fury which will already cause death in execute range.

Why do people on the forum keep acting like Stamsorc is weak? I still find them very very strong, albeit generally more effective in burst setups (like everyone else...) and suffer from defile proliferation (like most stam specs). I don't want stamsorcs nerfed at all, but Implosion could use a rework.

Act? Don't have to act. They have inferior burst to StamDens, StamBlades and StamPlars (shouldn't have to explain why) and on top of the Defile proliferation which they always struggled with, in this patch they also have to deal with the perma-snares or otherwise being super squishy in medium armour and dying to soul assaults or cliffracer spam.

Like, what is it that Stam Sorc can do that a StamBlade and StamWarden doesn't do much better? The class has 0 stam damage skills. Its "identity" is Hurricane, Streak & Dark Deal.

Solariken

Stamblades and stamwardens are in a league of their own, no doubt. Not really much to discuss there.

IMO Stamsorc is still more survivable and versatile than stamDk or Stamplar, both of which are also one-trick ponies in PvP - Dizzy>Leap and DBoS>Jabs all day, every day. I'm just not on board with the Stamsorc pity party that seems to have started around here.

Chilly-McFreeze

Solariken wrote: »

Stamblades and stamwardens are in a league of their own, no doubt. Not really much to discuss there.

IMO Stamsorc is still more survivable and versatile than stamDk or Stamplar, both of which are also one-trick ponies in PvP - Dizzy>Leap and DBoS>Jabs all day, every day. I'm just not on board with the Stamsorc pity party that seems to have started around here.

Point is, at least your mentioned examples have a choice to do so on whatever weapon (skills) they want in addition. sSorcs are incredibly limited on that. As a sS you are fully reliable on your weapon choice because they have no damaging class skill beside hurricane, which is a shadow of it's former glory.

No spam, no execute, no gap closer, no debuffs.
Half of the class passives are borderline useless.
Some good buffs (surge) but one of them is a toggle (BA).
Dark deal became hard to justify when they prolonged it's "can't do anything" duration by 40%.
Streak is nice, but a resource killer. Especially when you also use surge and the class hard CC (which got cost-nerfed by 60%?)
What they got going for them is negate, the overload bar, Energized and implosion (which BTW scales with max health).

Beside the nerfs to surge healing, hurricane dmg and d/d channel time they nerfed constitution and heavy in general. Add the good spots for other class/resource combinations to it and you can see why stam sorc feels weak.


However, I'd put all three of them (stam DK, templar, sorc) on the bottom of the PvP barrel right now, with marginal differences.

ak_pvp

Biro123 wrote: »

I think the comments on whether mag sorcs should have it are interesting..

Why do people think this?

I see 'no because they already have the strongest execute'. Surely if this is the case then the target is dead anyway, so changing implosion for something else will only be a buff.

Or 'its OK for magsorc'. Is this because they have very few dots in PvP (if any) and so a very low chance to proc it... Ie. The passive is pretty much useless and therefore OK?

Am I reading this right? Those saying mag sorcs shouldn't have it are asking them to be buffed, those saying the opposite are OK that its weak?

For stam sorc, its much, much more useful. I think that without a class execute, its good to have one less reason to be tied to 2-hander (for its execute in this case). Don't forget, its still a very low threshold, and in most cases, the next hit would be a kill anyway.
But I do think that procs (from anything) shouldn't happen after death.

I personally think its bad design generally, but my arguments were a devils advocate more in terms of PvP usefulness. As you say its much more useful for a stamsorc, it doesn't have much chance to proc.

itsfatbass

Here we are again, complaining about something that is absolutely fine in PVE but will probably be nerfed cause PVP.

Solariken

jphipps85b14_ESO1 wrote: »

Here we are again, complaining about something that is absolutely fine in PVE but will probably be nerfed cause PVP.

Everything is always fine in PvE. PvE class/combat balance doesn't really matter beyond a certain threshold.