Is theorycrafting a dead art in ESO? (PvP)

Qbiken · December 2017

Feels like a "remove CP"-thread in disguise ..........

* Posting "successful" theorycrafted builds often leads to nerfs, which isn´t very encouraging, therefore some people will keep most stuff to themselves.

* Some gear takes a lot of grinding, which will discourage another group of people

* As someone mentioned, to optimize a build isn´t free, and depending on which platform and server you´re on, the prices to upgrade gear can sometimes be discouraging as well.

* Sometimes the time you need to spend to test/re-test will also discourage some people. If the result isn´t good enough, even though you spend a lot of time with theorycrafting, then you might not jump on that train again, and just go with the "meta" instead.

* I personally don´t agree that CP creates less diversity in builds, but I can´t say for sure that it creates more diversity either (since there´s no way for me or anyone else to actually prove it). I can agree with you @Solariken that it favours certain playstyles/builds etc.. But isn´t that the case in no-CP as well? I haven´t played much no-CP PvP (reason I´m asking you here now) but I can imagine certain builds/classes performs better in no-CP than others, but feel free to correct me if I`m wrong

When it comes to CP I think ZOS should keep it (I´m against a total removal at the moment, until ZOS can replace it with something similar and/or better), maybe adjust the amount of boost certain stars/constellations can give you, but stop adding more CP for each new update.

Trashs1 · December 2017

Didgerion wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Yeah @jhharvest I agree, nonCP is MUCH more conducive to a larger breadth of build possibilities - marginally so in Cyrodiil but definitely in nonCP BG's (RIP).

@Didgerion you are right that buildcraft is yugely expensive versus what it used to be, but that is much less of an issue for established players. There are very few sets that I don't have rotting in one of my inventories, and the only notable expense for me is the occasional gold upgrade or transmutation which I never seem to have enough stones for lol.

@Solariken to truly evaluate the potential of your build you need to have at least gold weapons and the rest can be purple.
You also most probably will need Gold enchants on some armor pieces, jewelry and weapon.
That's a lot of gold:
To golden up one sword will cost you around 56k gold on PC-NA server.
To put 5 glyphs (average) will cost you 20k more.
To buy missing pieces will cost you some gold too.
That brings us close to 100k gold just to try and test a build we theory-crafted (providing you just need 1 gold weapon)

That's a big waste of gold if the build does not work - even for veteran players.

for that reason use uesp planer at first...

Minno · December 2017

Trashs1 wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Yeah @jhharvest I agree, nonCP is MUCH more conducive to a larger breadth of build possibilities - marginally so in Cyrodiil but definitely in nonCP BG's (RIP).

@Didgerion you are right that buildcraft is yugely expensive versus what it used to be, but that is much less of an issue for established players. There are very few sets that I don't have rotting in one of my inventories, and the only notable expense for me is the occasional gold upgrade or transmutation which I never seem to have enough stones for lol.

@Solariken to truly evaluate the potential of your build you need to have at least gold weapons and the rest can be purple.
You also most probably will need Gold enchants on some armor pieces, jewelry and weapon.
That's a lot of gold:
To golden up one sword will cost you around 56k gold on PC-NA server.
To put 5 glyphs (average) will cost you 20k more.
To buy missing pieces will cost you some gold too.
That brings us close to 100k gold just to try and test a build we theory-crafted (providing you just need 1 gold weapon)

That's a big waste of gold if the build does not work - even for veteran players.

for that reason use uesp planer at first...

I never gold up unless it feels fun too.
Otherwise I gold up my offensive weapon only.

Solariken · December 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Feels like a "remove CP"-thread in disguise ..........

Haha dang it, exposed!

Minno · December 2017

Minno wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Yeah @jhharvest I agree, nonCP is MUCH more conducive to a larger breadth of build possibilities - marginally so in Cyrodiil but definitely in nonCP BG's (RIP).

@Didgerion you are right that buildcraft is yugely expensive versus what it used to be, but that is much less of an issue for established players. There are very few sets that I don't have rotting in one of my inventories, and the only notable expense for me is the occasional gold upgrade or transmutation which I never seem to have enough stones for lol.

@Solariken to truly evaluate the potential of your build you need to have at least gold weapons and the rest can be purple.
You also most probably will need Gold enchants on some armor pieces, jewelry and weapon.
That's a lot of gold:
To golden up one sword will cost you around 56k gold on PC-NA server.
To put 5 glyphs (average) will cost you 20k more.
To buy missing pieces will cost you some gold too.
That brings us close to 100k gold just to try and test a build we theory-crafted (providing you just need 1 gold weapon)

That's a big waste of gold if the build does not work - even for veteran players.

for that reason use uesp planer at first...

I never gold up unless it feels fun too.
Otherwise I gold up my offensive weapon only.

And I don't gold all enchants. Only tri stat and DMG enchants. And certain sets don't matter of they are gold or purple. Like slimecraw, is a few extra crit worth 30-40k to gold it up? Not likely.

gabormezo · December 2017

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

I'm completely obsessed with theory crafting to the point I'm always broke and waste countless hours on garbage just to answer a question I brought up in my head. And when speaking of if it's diverse or not I mean.....the way I look at it there are tons of combos to run. You just have to make sure they fit a basic standard to fulfill what your trying to do. And there is no other rpg I have been interested in in the last three to four years except this one. I just wish pvp was more rewarding in terms of items instead of having to do this trial or that dungeon to get new gear. Hate pve.

Very well said. Couldn't agree more.

idk · December 2017

Theorycrafting is not dead and build diversity, within the realm of what works, is still there.

As for the tons of sets available most of them are not BiS for anything except funky build some put together for fun.

A great many consider different aspects of builds and test them out. Did not really see anything valid in the OP that made the points of questions valid.

Glory · December 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Nope. In fact I think it’s the best it’s ever been. It’s a simple function of the fact that gear diversity is the best it’s ever been and that the game is more balanced now than any time I can recall since I started seriously PvPing in 1.6. Your issue may have to do with the breadth of the conversation(s) around theorycrafting rather than the state of theorycrafting itself. People are just lazy these days and far more inclined to just slap on a YouTube build rather than test the waters themselves and think outside the box. Also, most of the people pushing the envelope on theorycrafting these days don’t share their creations outside their friends or guilds. As such, most of your meta chasers are all being spoon fed by the same few content creators. Thus giving the illusion that a narrow field of builds and gear sets are viable.

The point that @arkansas_ESO raises about looking at 7th legion in retrospect is a perfect example of this. Or how ppl slept on Fury when Black Rose was considered the end all be all of overpowered sets. In the grand scheme of things, across all classes, play styles, and gear sets, there are more viable builds now than ever before imo.

Pretty much this entirely, particularly the sharing part. Anyone in my discord knows that I've tried probably over 30 variants of mDK alone this patch, but I'm not going to publish a build for each single one of them.

FloppyTouch · December 2017

Glory wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Nope. In fact I think it’s the best it’s ever been. It’s a simple function of the fact that gear diversity is the best it’s ever been and that the game is more balanced now than any time I can recall since I started seriously PvPing in 1.6. Your issue may have to do with the breadth of the conversation(s) around theorycrafting rather than the state of theorycrafting itself. People are just lazy these days and far more inclined to just slap on a YouTube build rather than test the waters themselves and think outside the box. Also, most of the people pushing the envelope on theorycrafting these days don’t share their creations outside their friends or guilds. As such, most of your meta chasers are all being spoon fed by the same few content creators. Thus giving the illusion that a narrow field of builds and gear sets are viable.

The point that @arkansas_ESO raises about looking at 7th legion in retrospect is a perfect example of this. Or how ppl slept on Fury when Black Rose was considered the end all be all of overpowered sets. In the grand scheme of things, across all classes, play styles, and gear sets, there are more viable builds now than ever before imo.

Pretty much this entirely, particularly the sharing part. Anyone in my discord knows that I've tried probably over 30 variants of mDK alone this patch, but I'm not going to publish a build for each single one of them.

Same with my mdk I tried heavy, light, staff sword and shield with 7 different sets. I had a lot of fun trying each new build and all of them work in some way. Theory crafting feel better then ever.

It’s just a pain to share them and the ridicule you get when it’s not what the streamers say are “meta”

Neoauspex · December 2017

I'm brute forced into theory crafting every patch, when my last theorycraft gets nerfed to the ground.

FearlessOne_2014 · December 2017

Theorycrafting has never seen such awesome days. Many many viable builds out there. However there are a few builds that just have a low risk/high reward theme about them. That makes a lot of those viable builds less sought out.

StayAlfresco · December 2017

Theory crafting is what I do for fun in this game now. I don't care enough anymore to make competitive builds, I make niche, mostly stupid ***.

Datthaw · December 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm curious how some of you guys are feeling about the general state of theorycrafting in this game. We've been through a ton of different "meta" scenarios, a constant rollercoaster from patch to patch, but in my opinion the "meta" has never been as narrow and stagnated as it is today. It seems like the list of gear loadouts and skill combos that are truly effective has never been shorter.

I used to love putting together some super wacky and weird build combos and trying things that were against the grain or just for fun. But today gear has such a strong impact on your character's performance that to use item sets outside of the "meta" gimps your character nearly to the point that you either can't get kills against most players or you can't survive when a decent player tries to kill you. I don't mean to exaggerate too much, but it feels a bit like a lost cause.

There is a HUGE list of available sets at this point. But if I had to guess, I would say less than 20% of them are useful for anything. The Champion system is the biggest barrier (horrible design, forces extreme specialization, makes certain build types excel more, etc etc), but it's difficult to point the finger at any other specific reason why it feels so off right now. Certain types of mitigation (block, shields, etc) and healing are in some cases so extreme that if you can't get a kill in the space of 2 globals it isn't happening. Fighting players is basically like whack-a-mole - you either annihilate them in one combo or they escape your clutches completely and you have to start all over again.

I don't think we need anything so extreme as the return of soft-caps, but I'm really hoping this situation can be improved.

Is ZOS actively trying to kill build diversity and theorycrafting? Do you guys feel the same or have I just been here so long that I'm tired and crotchety?

True and Wrong!

True - theory crafting is mostly dead in this game.
Wrong - CP is not the biggest barrier.

The biggest reason why theory crafting is dead is that it is too expensive (gold-wise or grind-wise) to theory-craft a build and see it under-perform.

That's why people are dropping theory-crafting and sticking with meta builds!

Really? I always was under the impression a theorycrafter would invest as much time as it takes. Much of the potential costs can be avoided by using the PTS for most of the build creation anyway, and then just make smaller adjustments after trying it out on live.

I still do, the biggest barrier is actually RNG.

Some of the best sets require 20+ runs to maybe get what you need.

Transmutation has helped a lot.

But for example, 40 Maelstrom runs 1 Winterborn ring, after a bit you say #$_& it

Yeah I've been running maelstrom trying to get winterborn for a icestaff magblade build. But man....that grind....