Is theorycrafting a dead art in ESO? (PvP)

Solariken

I'm curious how some of you guys are feeling about the general state of theorycrafting in this game. We've been through a ton of different "meta" scenarios, a constant rollercoaster from patch to patch, but in my opinion the "meta" has never been as narrow and stagnated as it is today. It seems like the list of gear loadouts and skill combos that are truly effective has never been shorter.

I used to love putting together some super wacky and weird build combos and trying things that were against the grain or just for fun. But today gear has such a strong impact on your character's performance that to use item sets outside of the "meta" gimps your character nearly to the point that you either can't get kills against most players or you can't survive when a decent player tries to kill you. I don't mean to exaggerate too much, but it feels a bit like a lost cause.

There is a HUGE list of available sets at this point. But if I had to guess, I would say less than 20% of them are useful for anything. The Champion system is the biggest barrier (horrible design, forces extreme specialization, makes certain build types excel more, etc etc), but it's difficult to point the finger at any other specific reason why it feels so off right now. Certain types of mitigation (block, shields, etc) and healing are in some cases so extreme that if you can't get a kill in the space of 2 globals it isn't happening. Fighting players is basically like whack-a-mole - you either annihilate them in one combo or they escape your clutches completely and you have to start all over again.

I don't think we need anything so extreme as the return of soft-caps, but I'm really hoping this situation can be improved.

Is ZOS actively trying to kill build diversity and theorycrafting? Do you guys feel the same or have I just been here so long that I'm tired and crotchety?

Waffennacht

You have build diversity within the parameters set by what form of PvP you wish to do.

I.e. I can make an Archer build work wonders Open World, while in duels lmfao.

If you're not going to duel, you have a lot more options

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

I'm curious how some of you guys are feeling about the general state of theorycrafting in this game. We've been through a ton of different "meta" scenarios, a constant rollercoaster from patch to patch, but in my opinion the "meta" has never been as narrow and stagnated as it is today. It seems like the list of gear loadouts and skill combos that are truly effective has never been shorter.

I used to love putting together some super wacky and weird build combos and trying things that were against the grain or just for fun. But today gear has such a strong impact on your character's performance that to use item sets outside of the "meta" gimps your character nearly to the point that you either can't get kills against most players or you can't survive when a decent player tries to kill you. I don't mean to exaggerate too much, but it feels a bit like a lost cause.

There is a HUGE list of available sets at this point. But if I had to guess, I would say less than 20% of them are useful for anything. The Champion system is the biggest barrier (horrible design, forces extreme specialization, makes certain build types excel more, etc etc), but it's difficult to point the finger at any other specific reason why it feels so off right now. Certain types of mitigation (block, shields, etc) and healing are in some cases so extreme that if you can't get a kill in the space of 2 globals it isn't happening. Fighting players is basically like whack-a-mole - you either annihilate them in one combo or they escape your clutches completely and you have to start all over again.

I don't think we need anything so extreme as the return of soft-caps, but I'm really hoping this situation can be improved.

Is ZOS actively trying to kill build diversity and theorycrafting? Do you guys feel the same or have I just been here so long that I'm tired and crotchety?

We need CP to be about quality of life stars (like the green tree), a reduction/softcaps on stats (healing damage and survivability) and useless sets to be reviewed against sets currently in okay.

For example, someone had a great idea for max resource stat to govern your healing while spell/weapon damage to govern your damage.

Also it's an argument that says adding abilities to create counter play to OP tactics is much more preferred than adding sets. What if DK's ground AOE removed ground effects instead of earthgore? What if Templars purge returned mag/Stam if you were healed by it instead of sentinel of rkugamz?

With all our huge pile of skill/CP points, shouldn't we have more options and choice for how we interact in the game world instead of slapping on a couple of 5pc sets and calling it a day.

I think the community is ready for spell crafting.

Jjitsuboy98

I'm completely obsessed with theory crafting to the point I'm always broke and waste countless hours on garbage just to answer a question I brought up in my head. And when speaking of if it's diverse or not I mean.....the way I look at it there are tons of combos to run. You just have to make sure they fit a basic standard to fulfill what your trying to do. And there is no other rpg I have been interested in in the last three to four years except this one. I just wish pvp was more rewarding in terms of items instead of having to do this trial or that dungeon to get new gear. Hate pve.

DKsUnite

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

I'm completely obsessed with theory crafting to the point I'm always broke and waste countless hours on garbage just to answer a question I brought up in my head. And when speaking of if it's diverse or not I mean.....the way I look at it there are tons of combos to run. You just have to make sure they fit a basic standard to fulfill what your trying to do. And there is no other rpg I have been interested in in the last three to four years except this one. I just wish pvp was more rewarding in terms of items instead of having to do this trial or that dungeon to get new gear. Hate pve.

@Jjitsuboy98

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData

Minno

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

I'm completely obsessed with theory crafting to the point I'm always broke and waste countless hours on garbage just to answer a question I brought up in my head. And when speaking of if it's diverse or not I mean.....the way I look at it there are tons of combos to run. You just have to make sure they fit a basic standard to fulfill what your trying to do. And there is no other rpg I have been interested in in the last three to four years except this one. I just wish pvp was more rewarding in terms of items instead of having to do this trial or that dungeon to get new gear. Hate pve.

I really think crafting should be the defacto PvP gear to offset the pve grind. This way at least crafting can be alive again like it was at launch. They can make money off PvP this way, since every DLC will come out with new "sets" you need to purchase.

arkansas_ESO

There's still sets and builds out there that are effective, but rarely used, since nobody's posted a build video of it yet. Think of it like this: Seventh Legion has been as strong as it is since it first got introduced a year ago, but it's only since HOTR that it's become so popular, because that's when people started talking about it.

CyrusArya

Nope. In fact I think it’s the best it’s ever been. It’s a simple function of the fact that gear diversity is the best it’s ever been and that the game is more balanced now than any time I can recall since I started seriously PvPing in 1.6. Your issue may have to do with the breadth of the conversation(s) around theorycrafting rather than the state of theorycrafting itself. People are just lazy these days and far more inclined to just slap on a YouTube build rather than test the waters themselves and think outside the box. Also, most of the people pushing the envelope on theorycrafting these days don’t share their creations outside their friends or guilds. As such, most of your meta chasers are all being spoon fed by the same few content creators. Thus giving the illusion that a narrow field of builds and gear sets are viable.

The point that @arkansas_ESO raises about looking at 7th legion in retrospect is a perfect example of this. Or how ppl slept on Fury when Black Rose was considered the end all be all of overpowered sets. In the grand scheme of things, across all classes, play styles, and gear sets, there are more viable builds now than ever before imo.

Thogard

My immov pots are too expensive.. I’m too poor to theorycraft lol

TheDoomsdayMonster

Its not a dead art at all...

Many of us theory craft all the time; I know I do...


Unfortunately, there is a lot of ignorance here on the forums and ingame...

People adhere to whatever the meta is thought to be and narrow their field of vision around that preconception...

Anything outside of that narrow view is typically automatically shunned...


Anyway me and several of my friends have been testing some crazy builds lately; most of them haven't been so good (like my Almalexia's Mercy build), but we've been using a few that have been really, really, effective...

But if you close your mind on "how to character build" like many here on the forums and ingame have done, then you'd never know about some of the crazy stuff out there that actually works...

Brutusmax1mus

I try so many set ups, it's far from dead. But as @Waffennacht mentioned, they have thier place. There's plenty you can do though. Having a defined purpose is what determines viability.

In my experience, the best theory crafting comes from small scale groups. You can become so much stronger in one area vs another if you can work with your team. Your teams composition isn't all that's important either, positioning and prioritizing becomes an opportunity and is effectively part of the craft.

TBois

Theorycrafting is 80% of the fun I still have in eso, and i agree with those that say it's the best it's been, possibly ever.

Waffennacht

@Brutusmax1mus touched on a big part. Teams are huge with a lot more viability, in fact an optimized group will have builds you'll never see in solo play.

Kartalin

DKsUnite wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

I'm completely obsessed with theory crafting to the point I'm always broke and waste countless hours on garbage just to answer a question I brought up in my head. And when speaking of if it's diverse or not I mean.....the way I look at it there are tons of combos to run. You just have to make sure they fit a basic standard to fulfill what your trying to do. And there is no other rpg I have been interested in in the last three to four years except this one. I just wish pvp was more rewarding in terms of items instead of having to do this trial or that dungeon to get new gear. Hate pve.

@Jjitsuboy98

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData

Thanks to the build creator there I've actually been able to accumulate some gold rather than spend it all on wild ideas. Just being able to mock up what I have in mind to see where it's at stat wise has helped a ton.

jhharvest

Play in no-CP / low level campaigns and you'll still have plenty of room to experiment. In those campaigns the biggest obstacle to theory crafting is the fact that you can make gear yellow. If you don't, you're gimping yourself; if you do it gets expensive to make mistakes.

Jjitsuboy98

DKsUnite wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

I'm completely obsessed with theory crafting to the point I'm always broke and waste countless hours on garbage just to answer a question I brought up in my head. And when speaking of if it's diverse or not I mean.....the way I look at it there are tons of combos to run. You just have to make sure they fit a basic standard to fulfill what your trying to do. And there is no other rpg I have been interested in in the last three to four years except this one. I just wish pvp was more rewarding in terms of items instead of having to do this trial or that dungeon to get new gear. Hate pve.

@Jjitsuboy98

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData

I use this a lot. But I can't get it to work on my phone so it loses it's shine as I would love to fiddle with it at work.

Brutusmax1mus

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

I'm completely obsessed with theory crafting to the point I'm always broke and waste countless hours on garbage just to answer a question I brought up in my head. And when speaking of if it's diverse or not I mean.....the way I look at it there are tons of combos to run. You just have to make sure they fit a basic standard to fulfill what your trying to do. And there is no other rpg I have been interested in in the last three to four years except this one. I just wish pvp was more rewarding in terms of items instead of having to do this trial or that dungeon to get new gear. Hate pve.

@Jjitsuboy98

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData

I use this a lot. But I can't get it to work on my phone so it loses it's shine as I would love to fiddle with it at work.

Request desktop site

TheDoomsdayMonster

CyrusArya wrote: »

Nope. In fact I think it’s the best it’s ever been. It’s a simple function of the fact that gear diversity is the best it’s ever been and that the game is more balanced now than any time I can recall since I started seriously PvPing in 1.6. Your issue may have to do with the breadth of the conversation(s) around theorycrafting rather than the state of theorycrafting itself. People are just lazy these days and far more inclined to just slap on a YouTube build rather than test the waters themselves and think outside the box. Also, most of the people pushing the envelope on theorycrafting these days don’t share their creations outside their friends or guilds. As such, most of your meta chasers are all being spoon fed by the same few content creators. Thus giving the illusion that a narrow field of builds and gear sets are viable.

The point that @arkansas_ESO raises about looking at 7th legion in retrospect is a perfect example of this. Or how ppl slept on Fury when Black Rose was considered the end all be all of overpowered sets. In the grand scheme of things, across all classes, play styles, and gear sets, there are more viable builds now than ever before imo.

I 100000000000000000000000% agree with you as pertains the bolded parts...

dsalter

its hard to theory craft when stuff barely changes.
need complete shifts in abilites, mechanics etc, to come up with theories.

Didgerion

Solariken wrote: »

I'm curious how some of you guys are feeling about the general state of theorycrafting in this game. We've been through a ton of different "meta" scenarios, a constant rollercoaster from patch to patch, but in my opinion the "meta" has never been as narrow and stagnated as it is today. It seems like the list of gear loadouts and skill combos that are truly effective has never been shorter.

I used to love putting together some super wacky and weird build combos and trying things that were against the grain or just for fun. But today gear has such a strong impact on your character's performance that to use item sets outside of the "meta" gimps your character nearly to the point that you either can't get kills against most players or you can't survive when a decent player tries to kill you. I don't mean to exaggerate too much, but it feels a bit like a lost cause.

There is a HUGE list of available sets at this point. But if I had to guess, I would say less than 20% of them are useful for anything. The Champion system is the biggest barrier (horrible design, forces extreme specialization, makes certain build types excel more, etc etc), but it's difficult to point the finger at any other specific reason why it feels so off right now. Certain types of mitigation (block, shields, etc) and healing are in some cases so extreme that if you can't get a kill in the space of 2 globals it isn't happening. Fighting players is basically like whack-a-mole - you either annihilate them in one combo or they escape your clutches completely and you have to start all over again.

I don't think we need anything so extreme as the return of soft-caps, but I'm really hoping this situation can be improved.

Is ZOS actively trying to kill build diversity and theorycrafting? Do you guys feel the same or have I just been here so long that I'm tired and crotchety?

True and Wrong!

True - theory crafting is mostly dead in this game.
Wrong - CP is not the biggest barrier.

The biggest reason why theory crafting is dead is that it is too expensive (gold-wise or grind-wise) to theory-craft a build and see it under-perform.

That's why people are dropping theory-crafting and sticking with meta builds!

ToRelax

Didgerion wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm curious how some of you guys are feeling about the general state of theorycrafting in this game. We've been through a ton of different "meta" scenarios, a constant rollercoaster from patch to patch, but in my opinion the "meta" has never been as narrow and stagnated as it is today. It seems like the list of gear loadouts and skill combos that are truly effective has never been shorter.

I used to love putting together some super wacky and weird build combos and trying things that were against the grain or just for fun. But today gear has such a strong impact on your character's performance that to use item sets outside of the "meta" gimps your character nearly to the point that you either can't get kills against most players or you can't survive when a decent player tries to kill you. I don't mean to exaggerate too much, but it feels a bit like a lost cause.

There is a HUGE list of available sets at this point. But if I had to guess, I would say less than 20% of them are useful for anything. The Champion system is the biggest barrier (horrible design, forces extreme specialization, makes certain build types excel more, etc etc), but it's difficult to point the finger at any other specific reason why it feels so off right now. Certain types of mitigation (block, shields, etc) and healing are in some cases so extreme that if you can't get a kill in the space of 2 globals it isn't happening. Fighting players is basically like whack-a-mole - you either annihilate them in one combo or they escape your clutches completely and you have to start all over again.

I don't think we need anything so extreme as the return of soft-caps, but I'm really hoping this situation can be improved.

Is ZOS actively trying to kill build diversity and theorycrafting? Do you guys feel the same or have I just been here so long that I'm tired and crotchety?

True and Wrong!

True - theory crafting is mostly dead in this game.
Wrong - CP is not the biggest barrier.

The biggest reason why theory crafting is dead is that it is too expensive (gold-wise or grind-wise) to theory-craft a build and see it under-perform.

That's why people are dropping theory-crafting and sticking with meta builds!

Really? I always was under the impression a theorycrafter would invest as much time as it takes. Much of the potential costs can be avoided by using the PTS for most of the build creation anyway, and then just make smaller adjustments after trying it out on live.

Waffennacht

ToRelax wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm curious how some of you guys are feeling about the general state of theorycrafting in this game. We've been through a ton of different "meta" scenarios, a constant rollercoaster from patch to patch, but in my opinion the "meta" has never been as narrow and stagnated as it is today. It seems like the list of gear loadouts and skill combos that are truly effective has never been shorter.

I used to love putting together some super wacky and weird build combos and trying things that were against the grain or just for fun. But today gear has such a strong impact on your character's performance that to use item sets outside of the "meta" gimps your character nearly to the point that you either can't get kills against most players or you can't survive when a decent player tries to kill you. I don't mean to exaggerate too much, but it feels a bit like a lost cause.

There is a HUGE list of available sets at this point. But if I had to guess, I would say less than 20% of them are useful for anything. The Champion system is the biggest barrier (horrible design, forces extreme specialization, makes certain build types excel more, etc etc), but it's difficult to point the finger at any other specific reason why it feels so off right now. Certain types of mitigation (block, shields, etc) and healing are in some cases so extreme that if you can't get a kill in the space of 2 globals it isn't happening. Fighting players is basically like whack-a-mole - you either annihilate them in one combo or they escape your clutches completely and you have to start all over again.

I don't think we need anything so extreme as the return of soft-caps, but I'm really hoping this situation can be improved.

Is ZOS actively trying to kill build diversity and theorycrafting? Do you guys feel the same or have I just been here so long that I'm tired and crotchety?

True and Wrong!

True - theory crafting is mostly dead in this game.
Wrong - CP is not the biggest barrier.

The biggest reason why theory crafting is dead is that it is too expensive (gold-wise or grind-wise) to theory-craft a build and see it under-perform.

That's why people are dropping theory-crafting and sticking with meta builds!

Really? I always was under the impression a theorycrafter would invest as much time as it takes. Much of the potential costs can be avoided by using the PTS for most of the build creation anyway, and then just make smaller adjustments after trying it out on live.

I still do, the biggest barrier is actually RNG.

Some of the best sets require 20+ runs to maybe get what you need.

Transmutation has helped a lot.

But for example, 40 Maelstrom runs 1 Winterborn ring, after a bit you say #$_& it

Akinos

Almost all of my gold and materials go into theorycrafting. And all my actively played characters are filled to the brim with all the different gear sets combinations I am constantly testing, like this:

My storage characters have mostly filled inventories too, same with my bank xD

geonsocal

I spend way too much time reading through all the different sets on fexelea's wiki site...not sure why, but, probably one of the most interesting parts of eso for me...

still remember my first 5 pc set I equipped - a set of heavy ashen grip I bought from a guild trader...thought it was the coolest thing in the world when my templar started breathing fire...

so thankful the golden came along to sell monster sets - trying to collect monster sets through pledges was painful...

tons of old sets sitting in the bank...lots of sets I only wore a few days before giving up on (thinking of you meridia's blessing)...

never have copied any builds - however, I do read the forums a bunch and it's hard not to absorb some of the info here...

a lot of whether I'll keep a setup going is how it performs in cyrodiil - particularly in small scale situations...zerg fighting you can literally go bucket and broom...

usually with each update there will be one of two sets I absolutely have to try out...latest was unfathomable darkness - love the animation...

finally got to the point where I had collected most the sets I wanted, wasn't until then I was able to start saving any coin in the bank

Solariken

Yeah @jhharvest I agree, nonCP is MUCH more conducive to a larger breadth of build possibilities - marginally so in Cyrodiil but definitely in nonCP BG's (RIP).

I think @dsalter makes a great point - after spending so much time and gold testing and tweaking and accumulating, you definitely reach a level of intuitiveness regarding what works. I think the problem right now is that there are certain things that are just SOOO effective that anything else can't measure up. It's one of the reasons for example that so many people just end up stacking weapon damage to the moon and using DBoS combos. It's just what works, to the point that other fun combos are irrelevant.

@Didgerion you are right that buildcraft is yugely expensive versus what it used to be, but that is much less of an issue for established players. There are very few sets that I don't have rotting in one of my inventories, and the only notable expense for me is the occasional gold upgrade or transmutation which I never seem to have enough stones for lol.

@CyrusArya I agree that we are in a good place with class balance overall and ZOS did some good work with addressing certain item sets. However I don't think this is a good era for buildcraft because character mechanics are so heavily weighted to force certain types of builds, which prioritizes the need for raw damage to the point that "fun" effects like Jailbreaker, Smuggler, Spectre's Eye, Crusader, etc etc gimp you drastically.

Fun story, a couple of my favorite builds of all time revolved around the old Shadowstrike CP passive. For example I had a vamp magsorc that I could load up an Inevitable Det damage combo from stealth and top it with an Overload heavy attack that would shred a target and pop me immediately back in invisibility for a smooth repositioning to shred another target from stealth. It was so nasty and so slippery, it made me hella sad when ZOS took away that passive - but I'm probably the reason lol. Fun times.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Because in PvP people are afraid of trying and failing(it's a bit of try and error) and get laughed at by meta-chasers until you find the final setup which works best.
I'm working on my ww stamblade setup atm. Do I occasionally die repeatedly too the same bunch of ap farmers??? Sure especially when they gang up on me(1vs2-7 usually) yesterday for example i was toying around with a 2 Man group at first then 7 at the end, and I died repeatedly after a average of 1-2 min of fighting. Am I bothered? No to get a perfect setup there will be failure and that's what imo people are afraid of
Youll have to test the new build under Extreme situations where you will often have to fail to expose the builds weaknesses in order to get rid of them. For example the erstes wipes yesterday in the 1vs2(later 7) caused me to Change from Pack leader to Beserker(the Wolf pets di dnt soak up enough da mage as i had hoped), Claws of Life not satusfactory, claws of anguish+40+ cp under befoul is essential in keeping up the pressure), on the offhand using stamina drain glyph is satisfactory trying prismatic onslaught on infused weapon to test its performance.
And all this from a few deaths...
Easy??? No that's wy people chase the meta where you don't have to test(some 1 did it 4 u)
Rewarding??? Definetly once its finished

Toast_STS

I made a good build once built around a set (sergeants mail) and then talked about it on the forums and then it got nerfed. Now i just keep my big mouth shut

Knootewoot

I always theorycraft but just suck in it. Also I don't post my (mis)creations. I have 2 toons I play on (mostly one). My other 6 toons are just bankers which hold complete sets of different armor types which I mix and match all the time.

I avoid the meta and want to be a unique build in PvP. Mostly I pay for that with my dear life lol.

My newest creation is a magblade bowbuild.

5* peleninal and 5* warmaiden and one kena. I distributed my stamina and magicka at 50/50.

Sadly pelenial only weight is max spell/weapon damage and does not take max magicka/stamina in account. Therefore a hybrid will always be way weaker unless I but all points in stamina and no magicka.

I will prepare to die a lot the next coming days.

Custos91

Toying around with my stam warden healer right now, getting amazing results.
Helps a bit that I only heal, and my meta is boring as hell... I actually use one set of gear on my 5 magicka heal chars, which makes them feel all the same.
So I am trying theory crafting now again, first results look very promising!

Sylphie

I don't think theorycrafting is dead, I think it's just not as public because

1. Although there are a large variety of item sets in the game, most people gravitate towards stacking damage/max stats as a way to build, thus it narrows down their selection to the current "meta" sets, e.g 7th legion, war maiden, ect.

2. RNG makes grinding extremely frustrating. Even with the new transmute, running dungeons over and over again for the pieces you need is a pain, especially if you work full time like myself and many others.

3. People that work out really effective builds keeping it a secret.

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

Its not a dead art at all...
Unfortunately, there is a lot of ignorance here on the forums and ingame...
People adhere to whatever the meta is thought to be and narrow their field of vision around that preconception...
Anything outside of that narrow view is typically automatically shunned...

This is also sadly true. The build my friend and I theorycrafted (not own) has been subjected to a lot of criticism and hate in the community and makes me wonder why I even bother with build transparency in the first place.

Didgerion

Solariken wrote: »

Yeah @jhharvest I agree, nonCP is MUCH more conducive to a larger breadth of build possibilities - marginally so in Cyrodiil but definitely in nonCP BG's (RIP).

@Didgerion you are right that buildcraft is yugely expensive versus what it used to be, but that is much less of an issue for established players. There are very few sets that I don't have rotting in one of my inventories, and the only notable expense for me is the occasional gold upgrade or transmutation which I never seem to have enough stones for lol.

@Solariken to truly evaluate the potential of your build you need to have at least gold weapons and the rest can be purple.
You also most probably will need Gold enchants on some armor pieces, jewelry and weapon.
That's a lot of gold:
To golden up one sword will cost you around 56k gold on PC-NA server.
To put 5 glyphs (average) will cost you 20k more.
To buy missing pieces will cost you some gold too.
That brings us close to 100k gold just to try and test a build we theory-crafted (providing you just need 1 gold weapon)

That's a big waste of gold if the build does not work - even for veteran players.